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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508
- Thread starter Huntofthelion
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The game's newest spinblocker: Blissey! Other options include Reuniclus and Vaporeon.
I love this sort of thing in theory, until you get to the spinblocking potential...and then it seems like a massive pain.
Although some of this may hinder team building, at the same time I think it would be a pretty cool addiction to the meta game. It would make everything very unpredictable, and would force people to educate themselves on the move sets of commonly used OU Pokemon in order to prepare for what possible secondary typing it could pull out of it's ass. For example, someone may give their Ninetails the Grass typing in order to give it a powerful STAB Solarbeam to fight back against Politoad that normally has the advantage over Ninetails. Although many may call this broken, I really don't think so. Like many have said, it forces a Pokemon to forgo an item like Life Orb, Leftovers, or a Choice item. Even worse it that you may have to sacrifice an important move slot in order to make up for the typing. Does Blissey really want to sacrifice a utility move and Leftovers just so it can be immune to Fighting types and spin block? Sure it would be much harder to take down, but Blissey prefers the extra longevity and support. For example Sure they get an extra STAB or better resistances, but is it worth the loss of the extra power, longevity, and possibly a missed move slot? Perhaps not. I would kind of like this twist because it would make it much harder to just slap good Pokemon on your team and have an advantage over most OU teams. You would have to take in account the many possibilities that a Pokemon may have. It would also add extra strategy and creativity into the meta game because of all the possibilities that you could come up with and experiment to see what works out the best on a certain Pokemon. However, many would disagree and say this would completely destroy the meta game and make team building near impossible. We'll just have to wait and see what GF does.
Oh okay. Must have missed that.
Still, it's another toy for single type weather inducers like.... Sun and Rain. Hippo can't make too much use since lack of lefties and actual attacks for good typing, even then it's not good on offense whereas Poli and Tales can use it on either weather play style. I hope mutengem isn't released for new toys for weather inducers is not a good idea :[
Hippos WW is a Normal-type move, thus not giving it a Flying-type under any mechanics.
Neither can really make good use of it. Both become substanstially easier to wear down due to no leftovers. For Politoed, since the typing is randomized, offensive variants either lose Ice Beam, or have a third/half of a chance to be SR weak. And non-choiced offensive variants are already sub par at best. For Ninetails, while it can get STAB SolarBeam, that's it. While it loses the water weakness, this is hardly relevant as it is much more frequently a victim of Rock attacks. The item doesn't really bring anything new to most abusers, either. Tangrowth gets a secondary type, but still not fire. And it still isn't as blazingly fast as other sun sweepers and vunerable to Scarfers as a result. While you'll have to watch out for several fire types, most would be a pain in the rear even without weather.
I have the feeling this item will be less "OU mons now better!" and more "Previously U/R/NU mons now OU!" Sure, there will be some OU mons who are stronger. Like Drizzle Politoed boosting Starmie's power. But, the majority of the pokemon it boosts will be from lower tiers, like weather for Venusaur, Gastrodon, and Kabutops.
Odd question, but if more auto-weather pokemon are introduced, what pokemon would you think they would be? Outside of sandstream on ok ground and rock types, hail, drought, and drizzle seem to be limited to mediocre at best lower tier pokemon. So no giving like Infernape drought :P.
Here are my guesses:
Sandstream: Regirock, Swampert, Torterra, Donphan, Claydol
Drizzle: Pelipper, Floatzel, and maybe Blastoise, just maybe
Snow Warning: Cryogonal, Beatric, Vanilluxe
Drought: Torkoal, Rapidash, Semisear
Remember, if they have 3 abilities already, its unlikely they will give it another.
Here are my guesses:
Sandstream: Regirock, Swampert, Torterra, Donphan, Claydol
Drizzle: Pelipper, Floatzel, and maybe Blastoise, just maybe
Snow Warning: Cryogonal, Beatric, Vanilluxe
Drought: Torkoal, Rapidash, Semisear
Remember, if they have 3 abilities already, its unlikely they will give it another.
I feel like Mutagen would actually be pretty balanced. Remember, you're not giving Pokémon an additional STAB for free: They have to give up their normal item (Life Orb, Choice items, Lefties, etc.) to use it. The is clearly a MASSIVE boon to single-typed Pokémon that would otherwise struggle (motherfucking STAB Earthquake/Stealth Rock neutrality on Darmanitan, anyone? Though, you would have to give up U-turn else face the wrath of 4X Stealth Rock).
I realize some people said some stuff about making more sturdy Spinblockers. Do Blissey or Vaporeon get Shadow Ball? Reuniclus just set itself up for 4X Dark and Ghost damage, so is that REALLY a good idea? Zyrefredic, you genius you.
EDIT: And goddammit Politoed is not Pursuit-bait anyway. Scizor isn't switching in on any set and Tyranitar has to worry about Specs Focus Blast/Scald burns.
I realize some people said some stuff about making more sturdy Spinblockers. Do Blissey or Vaporeon get Shadow Ball? Reuniclus just set itself up for 4X Dark and Ghost damage, so is that REALLY a good idea? Zyrefredic, you genius you.
EDIT: And goddammit Politoed is not Pursuit-bait anyway. Scizor isn't switching in on any set and Tyranitar has to worry about Specs Focus Blast/Scald burns.
Just based on stats/typing/movepool (dun give a fuck if it has 3 abilities):
Sandstream: Cradily, Omastar, Gliscor
Drizzle: Lanturn, Dragonair
Drought: Camerupt, Dragonair
Snow Warning: Glaceon
I was thinking about having another Pokemon based off of the moon (or maybe just add on to Lunatone/Cresselia) which had an ability called "tide control" or something which is basically the same as Magnet Pull, but for water types. Depending on the stats it could be a huge nerf to rain and Politoed specifically.
Weren't you complaining about this giving weather a boost? So, you don't want weather to get a boost that lets them beat the other inducers... I'm a bit puzzled here, honestly. The only thing this item gives weather is rain an easier time against Ferrothorn. Firstly, Pursuit resistance isn't all that relevant considering the only pokemon who uses it is a weather inducer. Secondly, you won't have it either 1/2 or 1/3 of the time. Those other times, you'll be Normal due to HP or Ice due to Ice Beam, both of which are moves he pretty much needs to fight. And, needing the STAB, he can only beat Ferro the aforementioned 1/2 or 1/3 of the time. If he drops HP and/or Beam to beat it reliably, then he's Dragon/etc bait. And, no, SB doesn't let Tales beat weather inducers. In order to use SB, Sun has to be up. So, you have to get your as frail as it valueble Fire/Grass Tales into: Tyranitar, a pokemon with a SE STAB. Hippo, a pokemon who is liable to Toxic or simply phaze you out to shave another 25% off your rear, or Politoed with a secondary STAB. Even if you come in on the revenge kill, they can simply switch a resist into your 81 base attack, and you lost a good 25% for nothing. Even if you force them to come in on you and use Sunny Day... you can already do that now. The only difference is that you can do it much earlier in the match. And, like with Politoed, there's a 50% chance (assuming Sunny/Fire/SB/HP) you won't have it. And dropping HP turns you into set-up bait.
That's pretty interesting. Here are my top-picks:
Sandstorm - Cacturne. This'd be pretty interesting, since unlike most starters, instead of outright abusing its weather, it'd be more of a supporter (fending off water types and laying down spikes). While Keldeo is a problem, Cacturne could come in handy in the lower tiers. May not work, but hey, trying can't hurt.
Hail - Weavile. Unlike Abomasnow, Weavile would be more offensive and less of an abuser. He can (I think, haven't done calcs) beat several threats the hail struggles with like Alakazam, Reinclules... Yeah, not much, but still worth. Also, Low Kick on Tyran is noteworthy.
Sun - Magmortar. Great movepool... Yeah, that's the main reason. Out with Kitsune, in with the guy with mortars for arms!
Rain - Electivire. In similar viens with the above. Plus, they're counterparts. When one gets a boost, the other does. (Though, they didn't give Skarm a pre-evo when Mantine got one...)
What I have in mind for a BW2 rom hack I'm trying to make is
Drizzle - Lunatone / Swanna (White) / Surskit, Masquerain (Black)
Drought - Solrock / Cherrim (White) / Camerupt (Black)
Sandstream - Shuckle, Regirock (White) / Flygon, Gigalith (Black)
Snow Warning - Delibird / Articuno, Vanilluxe (White) / Froslass, Regice (Black)
Bitches be weatherin'
Hi guys!
Personally, I think the thing I'd like to see most of all in this new generation is a complete overhaul of HM mechanics. I'm very pleased that you can now use TMs over and over without having to re-purchase them. This has essentially created a situation where the difference between TMs and HMs is simply that HMs have an overworld effect as well as their battle effect (and some TMs have overworld effects as well, minimizing the difference yet further).
As such, what I'd like to see most is that instead of having a battle effect, HMs become simply overworld abilities that can be taught. My main reasoning being that, aside from moves such as Surf or Waterfall, in general HMs have no competitive use and are generally just poor moves that get discarded as soon as possible, or piled onto a HM Slave (who, again, can be discarded when the main HMs it has are no longer required). By removing the battle effects entirely and making them overworld-only abilities, not only is there once again differentiation between HMs and TMs, but in-game teams no longer have to sacrifice a move slot for a pants HM. They can create separate moves that have the battle effects of the HMs, so that the actually decent ones (Surf and Waterfall are the only ones that spring to mind) aren't lost, but I feel that this method would make HMs make more sense, and would be better for the game overall.
As for other changes, I'm not really certain what else I'd like to see. A decent bulky non-offensive Dragon would be quite nice, since all the Dragons GF ever release seem to be either massively offensive or terribly average at everything (maybe they could evolve Altaria into something that can take a hit, so it can be a very decent support Dragon). Flygon getting Stealth Rock (Garchomp gets it, why wouldn't Flygon?). Some more evil-looking Dark-types, priority moves of every type (with the possible exception of Dragon), better distribution of priority moves in general, better distribution of entry hazards and Rapid Spin (I think there should really be a minimum of 2 fully-evolved Pokémon of each type who can use Rapid Spin, and similarly 2 of each type who can use some form of entry hazard - but then, I do play a lot of mono-type), Swift Swim and equivalents being reduced to a 1.5x multiplier instead of 2x perhaps?
If we're really wishful-thinking, I'd like to see IVs disappear (except maybe for Hidden Power calculation), and all the starter Pokémon re-worked from the ground up. Ideally, I would like to see all starter Pokémon almost equally viable (though in different roles, obviously), but more importantly, I'd like all of them to be actually viable. At present, most don't even qualify as UU (9 out of the 15 currently available are RU or NU), and while I know it would be difficult to truly balance them out in such a way that all of them would be OU material, I do not believe it would be impossible. Still, I don't imagine there's any chance of that. But, in an ideal world, that's what I'd like to see.
EDIT: As I've noticed people mentioning weather-inducers, I'd personally like to see Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres with Snow Warning, Drizzle and Drought respectively. I'd rather this than Politoed and Ninetales, so even if those two had to lose their DW abilities for the birds to get these, I'd be happy to see it done. I'm not a massive fan of weather wars, but if anyone had to have those abilities, I'd rather it was these three.
Personally, I think the thing I'd like to see most of all in this new generation is a complete overhaul of HM mechanics. I'm very pleased that you can now use TMs over and over without having to re-purchase them. This has essentially created a situation where the difference between TMs and HMs is simply that HMs have an overworld effect as well as their battle effect (and some TMs have overworld effects as well, minimizing the difference yet further).
As such, what I'd like to see most is that instead of having a battle effect, HMs become simply overworld abilities that can be taught. My main reasoning being that, aside from moves such as Surf or Waterfall, in general HMs have no competitive use and are generally just poor moves that get discarded as soon as possible, or piled onto a HM Slave (who, again, can be discarded when the main HMs it has are no longer required). By removing the battle effects entirely and making them overworld-only abilities, not only is there once again differentiation between HMs and TMs, but in-game teams no longer have to sacrifice a move slot for a pants HM. They can create separate moves that have the battle effects of the HMs, so that the actually decent ones (Surf and Waterfall are the only ones that spring to mind) aren't lost, but I feel that this method would make HMs make more sense, and would be better for the game overall.
As for other changes, I'm not really certain what else I'd like to see. A decent bulky non-offensive Dragon would be quite nice, since all the Dragons GF ever release seem to be either massively offensive or terribly average at everything (maybe they could evolve Altaria into something that can take a hit, so it can be a very decent support Dragon). Flygon getting Stealth Rock (Garchomp gets it, why wouldn't Flygon?). Some more evil-looking Dark-types, priority moves of every type (with the possible exception of Dragon), better distribution of priority moves in general, better distribution of entry hazards and Rapid Spin (I think there should really be a minimum of 2 fully-evolved Pokémon of each type who can use Rapid Spin, and similarly 2 of each type who can use some form of entry hazard - but then, I do play a lot of mono-type), Swift Swim and equivalents being reduced to a 1.5x multiplier instead of 2x perhaps?
If we're really wishful-thinking, I'd like to see IVs disappear (except maybe for Hidden Power calculation), and all the starter Pokémon re-worked from the ground up. Ideally, I would like to see all starter Pokémon almost equally viable (though in different roles, obviously), but more importantly, I'd like all of them to be actually viable. At present, most don't even qualify as UU (9 out of the 15 currently available are RU or NU), and while I know it would be difficult to truly balance them out in such a way that all of them would be OU material, I do not believe it would be impossible. Still, I don't imagine there's any chance of that. But, in an ideal world, that's what I'd like to see.
EDIT: As I've noticed people mentioning weather-inducers, I'd personally like to see Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres with Snow Warning, Drizzle and Drought respectively. I'd rather this than Politoed and Ninetales, so even if those two had to lose their DW abilities for the birds to get these, I'd be happy to see it done. I'm not a massive fan of weather wars, but if anyone had to have those abilities, I'd rather it was these three.
No thanks Jeff, LOL!
That would only further unbalance weather, however I do see where you're coming from in terms of flavour.
How about "Fresh Wind" Articuno (removes all weather and hazards when this pokemon switches in). "Air Lock" Moltres (Prevents weather change when in battle, opponent can not benefit from current weather) and something else for Zapdos.
The suggestion earlier about rock types auto removing stealth rock is pretty awesome (they can gain defense as the rocks are added to their bodies) but also pretty broken (Dragonite!!) although it would encourage the presence of rock types, types the likes of volcarona and dragonite currently don't like.
If we get new inducers, we should also get a new weather-clearing ability as well as making TailWind replace any existing weather effects. Makes sense since it blows from behind, and it would only last 3 turns. I'm thinking this:
Northwind: Pokemon with this ability summon Tailwind immediately upon entering battle. This ability would be exclusive to Suicine, who is already capable of safely switching into 4 of the 5 weather inducers.
Northwind: Pokemon with this ability summon Tailwind immediately upon entering battle. This ability would be exclusive to Suicine, who is already capable of safely switching into 4 of the 5 weather inducers.
This would be an interesting concept, making Sui a staple to no weather teams, and/or using Tailwind to clear the weather. My only issue with the tailwind issue is that it already raises Speed. Having it clear weather would have do too much IMHO. However if there were more Pokemon with Cloud Nine, THEN it would make a bit more sense. Who knows? Maybe Froakie's hidden ability is Cloud Nine.
I digress. If we got a second sun inducer, then I think it would balance things out a bit more seeing as one rain maker is enough. Perhaps if Solrock or even Fennekin got Drought, THEN we'd have a few more options rather than just Ninetails.
You know what current move would make perfect sense to get rid of auto-weather and hazards: defog.
I am highly doubting they would give any non water type drizzle or fire type drought honestly, it could happen, but if those abilities become more common, it would be rare. Its the same thing for the number of pokemon abilties, currently there is only one with more than 3 abilities, and that was a mistake by gamefreak.
I am highly doubting they would give any non water type drizzle or fire type drought honestly, it could happen, but if those abilities become more common, it would be rare. Its the same thing for the number of pokemon abilties, currently there is only one with more than 3 abilities, and that was a mistake by gamefreak.
It doubles speed, but only for 3 turns. This is already less than other no weather field effects, such as Trick Room and Gravity. I envision it working largely like fog in Mystery Dungeon, minus the flying-type benefits or accuracy reduction.
It wasn't a mistake. Rock Head's index number is 0x45, while Reckless is 0x78. It can't even be a typo, like the Rotom/Froslass Pokédex mix-up in DP. Their mistake was giving Rock Head only to that in-game Basculin in White.
But I agree that, say, Lunatone and Solrock getting Drizzle and Drought are highly improbable. Not because they aren't Water- or Fire-types, but because their typing has nothing to do with the weathers (even if they do "flavour-wise").
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