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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

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-bring back the old sleep mechanics so rest becomes somewhat viable
-nerf stealth rock so it does only 25% max, 6.75 min. ignores 4x effective and 4x resists
-make weather abilities so that they when the pokemon with the ability switches, the weather will end.
-give some select pokemon moves and abilities they've been needing (weavile gets technician, snorlax gets slack off, ect)

If it's like this, I'd be happy
 
Oh god, Weavile with Technician would be both incredible and awful. For example, CB Weavile has a chance to OHKO 4/0 Dragonite through Multiscale, with Ice Shard. More importantly, you could do something Mamoswine dearly wishes he could do, and KO a fully healthy Latios with Ice Shard, as well as KO him with Pursuit without them switching out, eliminating the need to predict whether or not they're switching. Low Kick hits the blobs that much harder; LO 2HKOs 252/252+ Blissey, something that you couldn't do before.

Jesus, it would be glorious and insane.
 
I don't see a problem with that-- weavile's only role in life is checking dragons. Rather it's kinda gay that it can't ohko dragonite. Weavile's still unbearably frail, weak to sr, helpless against bulky steel types... Technician/adaptability would not get it to break out of the lowest usage group in OU. It would just make it slightly more viable.

Thing is, even if you give low sweep a 50% power boost, Weavile is still so horribly owned by Scizor (and Jirachi, Metagross, Skarmory...). But Scizor is particular is a problem because Weavile can't really stop it from switching in, and once it's in, the Weavile user has to choose between letting Scizor kill it, and losing momentum to U-Turn. It's literally a situation you lose no matter what you do-- no ability to predict. Situations like that are rare in Pokemon, and suck really hard. Weavile becomes a viability. Just fixing Weavile's unbearably weak attacks doesn't fix this.
 
Why do people keep suggesting that weather end when the inducer switches out? That isn't a nerf to rain/sun, it basically renders them irrelevant given the uselessness of Poitoed and Ninetales otherwise. Same goes for Hail and Sand, though to a lesser extent because Tyranitar is actually useful.

I don't want to see this happen; we've tried and tried and tried to nerf weather and still can't get it right. Knowing GF they'll do the opposite and add MORE weather to the game.
 
Omg guys don't get me started on Technician Weavile... It's a dream that never came true... Technician would solve a lot of Weavile's problems and would undeniably make it a very useful OU poke! No 4 mss anymore, no lack of power anymore, and no getting walled by popular offensive Pokemon such as Rotom-W, or Keldeo anymore. A simple set of Faint Attack, Ice Shard, Pursuit, and Low Kick with Life Orb would be awesome. Faint Attack would be able to 2HKO Rotom-W and Tentacruel, while Low Kick would 2HKO Keldeo with two SR rounds, meaning all the Water-types that usually get in Weavile's way would be beaten. And Chou Scizor can't switch into Weavile freely as Low Kick 2HKOes with two SR rounds, and even then you should use a good Scizor check anyway.

Give us Techinician Weavile and Slack Off Snorlax in 6th gen, that's all i ask GF! Those are honestly the most logic additions to make.
 
I don't think it's a good idea, the problem is the first entry, because it leaves you to being OHKO by almost anything offensive on the game, and that's the problem.

Anyway, what if Volcarona results "broken" with Stealth Rock nerfed? I'm seen some Pokémon like... Excadrill, Blaziken and stuff being on the UBER Tier because it's brokeness, so, I don't see why we could not just ban Volcarona IF the new metagame shows that Volcarona results broken with SR nerfed, the same goes for Salamance, and no other one on the current OU is weak to SR apart from Gyarados, "Tornadus-T", Ninetales, Thundurus-T, Kyurem-B, and Dragonite, end of list (it's curious how almost the half of OU resist it, too), and Gyarados suffer somewhat, but not as hell with it's weakness to SR, Tornadus-T have regenerator, Ninetales is already too much nerfed, Thundurus-T doesn't switch-in too much, Kyurem-B is not uber for other reasons, and with Dragonite you just need to break it's Multiscale, mostly.

Of course, we don't know how the next metagame will be, but SR puts a foot aside from OU AND EVEN UU that is weak to it, in other words, Bugs, Fire, Flyers, and Ice friends, four types that it's members are almost all NU or RU just because SR, and SR "needs all it's power" to just check (more) two OU Pokémon?

Anyway, I liked the idea of Mario With Lasers, too.

I don't usually put SR on the field of enemy, anyway, and I'm not having problems with Volcarona, for example I just overstalled now a Volcarona that Quiver Danced to x 6 by just using Aqua Ring + Leaftovers + Protect + Substitute, and it's not too hard to bring down the moth with any physical super efective or any strong physical attack, anyway.


duty_calls.png

I once thought that Stealth Rock was stupid and that it should be removed.

The problem with changing Stealth Rock at all is that, like it or not, like Team Preview, it's a tool our entire metagame is shaped around. And unlike Drizzle, another key metagame factor, Stealth Rock is easily avalible to almost any team with a variety of setters. You have to be actively trying to make a team a SR user can't fit on.

Stealth Rock doesn't just affect those pokemon - it effects the entire game by adding a penalty for switching. Sure, there are pokemon who resist stealth rock, but this is typically a factor into why they are what tier they are. Likewise for pokemon who get mauled by Stealth Rock. But the thing is, our entire metagame is based on that, based on the fact that Focus Sash is a mostly unvaible item except for leads and 'zam because of rocks, based on the fact that Rocks are...well, rock type, based on the fact that Stealth Rock adds a penalty for the most powerful tool in Pokemon.

Without Stealth Rock, the metagame would drastically change. Not only would the tiers be thrown completely out of whack, but we'd also have to deal with the fact that one of the only checks to the most powerful tool in pokemon would be gone.

Finally,
Bugs, Fire, Flyers, and Ice friends

They aren't mostly in the shit tiers just because of their SR weakness. They're mostly in the shit tiers because they are shitty pokemon. Sure, some of them might barely rise up (Yanemega being the one exception I fully believe would go OU), but, well. Bugs suffer from absolutely shitty stats, Fire suffers from LOLDRIZZLE, Flying just sucks in general (Absolute ass stab options outside of a a kamikazie move (that relies on the stat that most flyers don't have in spades) and a move with only 70% accuracy outside of rain that has absoutely poor distribution, crappy stats on a lot of the flyers), and Ice is beyond horrible as a typing. Stealth Rock is just icing on the cake.

Same reason why we don't really have OU Poison, Rock, Grass, Psychic, Dark, or Ghost types. The thing is that these are just types with exceedingly poor pokemon, although Psychic, Poison, and Rock also suffer from being complete ass as typing. The king types are Fighting, Water, Dragon, Steel, Ground, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. If a pokemon isn't one of those five types, then it's probably just a really fucking good pokemon, and will be the exception rather then the norm.
 
Omg guys don't get me started on Technician Weavile... It's a dream that never came true... Technician would solve a lot of Weavile's problems and would undeniably make it a very useful OU poke! No 4 mss anymore, no lack of power anymore, and no getting walled by popular offensive Pokemon such as Rotom-W, or Keldeo anymore. A simple set of Faint Attack, Ice Shard, Pursuit, and Low Kick with Life Orb would be awesome. Faint Attack would be able to 2HKO Rotom-W and Tentacruel, while Low Kick would 2HKO Keldeo with two SR rounds, meaning all the Water-types that usually get in Weavile's way would be beaten. And Chou Scizor can't switch into Weavile freely as Low Kick 2HKOes with two SR rounds, and even then you should use a good Scizor check anyway.

Give us Techinician Weavile and Slack Off Snorlax in 6th gen, that's all i ask GF! Those are honestly the most logic additions to make.

Weavile wouldn't use Faint Attack, it'd use Bite.
 
Switching existed before Stealth Rock; there is no inherent need to penalize switching when the loss of momentum is enough. Plus, we have Spikes.

I'm not saying we get rid of it, but the meta would become alot more diverse with a cap at 25%. We don't lose a check on some of the more powerful flying types + Volcarona, but now Moltres might see some use. Yanmega and Ninjask arent utterly crippled when trying to sweep/BP. Etc.
 
I don't see a problem with that-- weavile's only role in life is checking dragons. Rather it's kinda gay that it can't ohko dragonite. Weavile's still unbearably frail, weak to sr, helpless against bulky steel types... Technician/adaptability would not get it to break out of the lowest usage group in OU. It would just make it slightly more viable.

Thing is, even if you give low sweep a 50% power boost, Weavile is still so horribly owned by Scizor (and Jirachi, Metagross, Skarmory...). But Scizor is particular is a problem because Weavile can't really stop it from switching in, and once it's in, the Weavile user has to choose between letting Scizor kill it, and losing momentum to U-Turn. It's literally a situation you lose no matter what you do-- no ability to predict. Situations like that are rare in Pokemon, and suck really hard. Weavile becomes a viability. Just fixing Weavile's unbearably weak attacks doesn't fix this.
Yes, he loses to almost any defensive Steel not weak to Low Kick, but...
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 154-182 (44.89 - 53.06%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO

Assuming SR is up, Technician Weavile could predict the switch in and then force the other player it click Bullet Punch or risk losing their Scizor. Also, Technician Weavile should get a better Technician boosted Ice STAB.

This is all assuming GameFreak would actually GIVE him the most perfect ability ever imagined for him.
 
Why do people keep suggesting that weather end when the inducer switches out? That isn't a nerf to rain/sun, it basically renders them irrelevant given the uselessness of Poitoed and Ninetales otherwise. Same goes for Hail and Sand, though to a lesser extent because Tyranitar is actually useful.

I don't want to see this happen; we've tried and tried and tried to nerf weather and still can't get it right. Knowing GF they'll do the opposite and add MORE weather to the game.

You read my mind. I don't get why people think that it would be smart to have the weather stop when the inducers switch out. How are Groudon and Kyogre supposed to feel? But really, what would be the point of having that ability then? If you wanted any form of weather you'd have to use Sunny Day / rain dance / Sandstorm / Hail, and lord knows that isn't happening.
 
Switching existed before Stealth Rock; there is no inherent need to penalize switching when the loss of momentum is enough. Plus, we have Spikes.

While there isn't an inherent absolute need, it's existed long enough that to suddenly remove it would radically change the game. Also, spikes don't hit everything.
I'm not saying we get rid of it, but the meta would become alot more diverse with a cap at 25%. We don't lose a check on some of the more powerful flying types + Volcarona, but now Moltres might see some use. Yanmega and Ninjask arent utterly crippled when trying to sweep/BP. Etc.
Ninjask still dies to any passive damage ever, and it's not hard to hit it SE. That aside, it's kind of doubtful. Volcy would get suspected, RU and UU would shift around a but, but OU probably wouldn't change terribly much. Moltres is already outclassed by what few fire types there are in OU, it's weak to extremely common attacking types, and while Moltres's hurricane is powerful, it has to use it in an enviroment that ensures it'll be OHKO'd by any water type attack (not uncommon by any strech of the imagination) as well as suffer from having base 90 speed, which is pretty slow for a offensive mon nowadays. I could go on, but the point is that everything in OU will still outclass things in NU, and RU. A handful of stragglers might move up from UU, but it's extremely doubtful that the OU metagame will suddenly become "more diverse" with a 25% damage cap. At best, the threats will slightly change - and that's about it.
 
I really don't get the point of capping Stealth Rock at 25%. Everybody uses Volcarona with a spinner/magic bouncer and 25% is still big enough to keep that up, and Pokemon like Ninjask and Yanmega still won't be very good. Maybe Moltres will be just a little better, but it would still be inferior to other, better options for OU teams.

As for weather, as much as I want Game Freak to nerf weather, the best I can see them doing is adding more threats that function well on weatherless teams, but nothing is stopping these threats from being used on weather teams. Now that they've introduced Drizzle/Drought on non-legendary Pokemon (that and Game Freak just doesn't give a shit about competitive players), I'm pretty sure they'll either keep the status quo or make weather even more dominant (probably the latter).

Personally I just want to see them try to even the playing field between offense and stall, but knowing Game Freak, we'll just get another massive power creep.
 
Technician Weavile has been the most talked about upgrade ever since B/W lol. I'd rather she got something a little more dark type exclusive, considering psychics and ghosts have exclusive abilities (psychic gets two of the best!).. but not so much dark types.

Shadow Cloak - 100% evasion against contact moves, fails in sun.

This would turn a lot of Weavile's counters on their heads (Jirachi, Scizor, Conkeldurr) whilst ensuring that beat up lead Weavile with Kings rock/choice band/focus sash doesn't go to ubers (it's only switch ins would be Conkeldurr, Skarmory and scarfed fighting types !)

Some cool upgrades to existing abilities like:

Shell Armour - 50% damage reduction of contact moves (< Torterra to become OU viable physical tank)
Clear Body - Prevents all stats drops (and Metagross learns psycho boost = Metagross to solid OU)
Keen Eye - Ensures all flying moves will not miss (<Maybe with better distribution we can have a hurricane abuser that's balanced)
Hyper Cutter - Repeated attacks gain accuracy and power (1.5x) (< would be fun watching Pinsir and Gliscor go on the offensive)

etc
 
Echoing the Stealth Rock nerf. It would make way more Pokemon viable then broken and bring a ton of diversity to the meta game. A type re haul giving ice and maybe a few other types a resistance to dragon, maybe a few more water resists would be nice to reduce the dominance of these two types offensively. Definitely agreeing on the need for defensive threats as stall is my favourite play style and I would like to use it again without being heavily restricted. Better spinners and spin blockers would really help as I find they really set a lot of restrictions on your options for stall since both are almost mandatory. Last but not least I would almost like to see them cancel cross gen compatibility so we can forget about generation 5 and pretend like it never happened.
 
The unique problem with the weather inducers is the fact that the weather stays on the field forever and forever, so, if I don't know, your inducer is K.O'ed (or if you don't have inducer), then your opponents will have forever, I don't know, rain or sandstorm for the rest of the game, you can't stall it, you can't change it at all, you can't remove it, you can't prevent it's effects at all (Rayquaza in ubers is decent, but Golduck...), so, that is the problem with the weather, it endures forever on the field, AND, you can only reverse it using other weather, and your opponent can just switch-in it's inducer again...

Also, it's overcentralizing the game with the inducers (a solution for this could be make Rain Dance move and stuff set longer, or eternal). But even the - eternal - rain and stuff could be ok as long a move who can remove weather and prevent it's modification would be created, like, Clear Sky, and the field could stay free from weather modification for, I don't know exactly, 5 turns (you're wasting already one turn, maybe 8 with an item).

Anyway, there are a huge number of Pokémon who were viable or were on higher tiers on the Generation III that losed it's OU or UU status JUST BECAUSE SR WEAKNESS, yeah, it's not only a thing of the x 4 weak, it's a thing of the x 2 weak, too, why? For the sweepers, it's hard to do 100% of damage to every Pokémon on the game, almost impossible, even with hazard standar hazard, you're still needing 88% or more to succesful sweep, but, what happens? Pokémon weaks to it are being punished, and sweepers ONLY needs to reach 75% of damage to OHKO it, and ONLY 50% of damage to OHKO the x 4 weakness, that's excesive game changing, that is excesive game breaking, and that's the main reason why the Tier List of the Gen III completely changed on the Gen IV (apart from the Dragon Zone because the buff to the dragons), while the Gen V generation did stay really similar to the IV one. If you're weak to SR, you need to be a huge, huge, huge powerful monster (like Kyurem-B, or Quiver Dance Volcarona), or you're just not viable, that's incredible.

You're trading the possible brokeness of just 2 Pokémon (I don't think Volcarona is broken without SR, Salamance maybe) by making more viable four complete types of Pokémon, some will became OU, and a good number UU, and RU, sun could not sucks (so hard) against rain, and a other good number of change to bring more variety if SR is just nerfed, but not removed or almost making it unviable. Also, there're a huge number of walls that are not utilized by just it's SR weakness, like the same Articuno (high UU on the past), who could stall for the eternity anything without rock attacks if not were by the omniprescence of SR crippling the 50% of it's HP EACH TEAM it switch-in's, amazing, and swepers are having it's time a lot easier, and cleaners, too (they need to focus less punch on those types), so, SR is one of the reasons that are becoming the current metagame more offensive-inclined, because you're already crippling any wall that is weak to SR.
 
nyttyn, your avatar reminds me of something I personally want to see. Good physical Water-, Flying-, and Steel- type moves on Gallade. The reason? Gallade learns:

Bug: X-scissor
Dark: Night Slash
Dragon: Dual Chop
Electric: Thunder Punch
Fighting: Close Combat
Fire: Fire Punch
Flying: Aerial Ace :(
Ghost: Shadow Sneak
Grass: Leaf Blade
Ground: Earthquake
Ice: Ice Punch
Normal: Return/Frustration
Poison: Poison Jab
Psychic: Zen Headbutt
Rock: Stone Edge
Steel: none
Water: none

A stronger Physical Ghost move would be nice too. But Gallade would have insane type coverage with those moves. (Steel less so, but there for completeness's sake.) EDIT: How did I forget? Steel also makes perfect sense flavorwise. The swordsman needs swords.
 
HOW ABOUT HP FIRE WEAVILE :O you ohko scizor and forretress along with 2hkoing physically based skarmory (out of rain)!! kinda gimmicky but still nice (:
 
HOW ABOUT HP FIRE WEAVILE :O you ohko scizor and forretress along with 2hkoing physically based skarmory (out of rain)!! kinda gimmicky but still nice (:

With Weavile, unless you're OHKO'ing Scizor on the switch in, it's not worth it as you won't get the second shot.
 
The best weather nerf idea I have seen so far was the idea that speed boosting abilities could change from x2 speed to x1.5 speed. Everything else seems a little excessive. If weather abusers with speed boosting abilities really NEED that speed... then why can't GF make more viable trace users (Alakazam would be so good with trace) and why not have a moldbreaker-esque ability that ignores abilities that would otherwise give opponent an offensive advantage. That OR moldbreaker to ignore the +2 abilities as well. After that with reliable ways to remove the weather (defog) and increased viable options for weather (hail/sun abusers) we might even be witnessing a metagame where abusers can keep their +2 speed... but there is a lot more balance in the metagame!

ie: Excadrill would have to deal with moldbreaker Haxorus revenging it, a shell armour torterra now walls it (and dragons)(see my post above), Weather can viably change around it more often, Trace user can easily revenge it and turn its team on its head... etc.
 
HOW ABOUT HP FIRE WEAVILE :O you ohko scizor and forretress along with 2hkoing physically based skarmory (out of rain)!! kinda gimmicky but still nice (:

252 SpA Life Orb Weavile Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 255-302 (90.42 - 107.09%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

But who the hell wants to use 252 SpA WEAVILE?
 
Since 5th gen was a pretty awful gen with all its power creep and weather abuse, I have a rather short wish list, which would make me completely happy:

1. A bulky spinner with reliable recovery. Running bulky Starmie on a stall team is not cool. Tentacruel has nice decent recovery in Raindish, but it is as reliable as an instant 50% recovery move and it forces you run rain. Forretress gets worn down so easily and can't beat spin blocker without Pursuit support.
So GF pretty pretty please a good defensive spinner would be super nice.

2. No more tools for rain. Fuck rain.

3. Spinblocking deserves a buff too. Jellicent is good, but I'd like to mix it little bit up in team building. A Steel/Ghost type might be an overkill, but a decently bulky Ghost type is all I wanted.

4. I know power creep is necessary to get kids to buy the game, but GF don't exaggerate it :)
 
252 SpA Life Orb Weavile Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 255-302 (90.42 - 107.09%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

But who the hell wants to use 252 SpA WEAVILE?

Someone who doesn't know better.

As for other nerfs, perhaps we should see some Swift Swim nerfs or Sand Rush nerfs to make them useable in OU again. Perhaps, or perhaps not, it would be interesting to see what they COULD do. (though it's very farfetched.)
 
252 SpA Life Orb Weavile Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 255-302 (90.42 - 107.09%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

But who the hell wants to use 252 SpA WEAVILE?


um tech boost means its 90 bp so you only need 60 spatk evs to guarantee the ohko after sr!
 
... based on the fact that Stealth Rock adds a penalty for the most powerful tool in Pokemon.

Without Stealth Rock, the metagame would drastically change. Not only would the tiers be thrown completely out of whack, but we'd also have to deal with the fact that one of the only checks to the most powerful tool in pokemon would be gone.

Switching is what defines competitive battling. Why must we check it? It's not like ''everybody spams weather, all is ruined'' since the option to switch is (almost) always avaliable to everyone and every playstyle.


Talking about the power creep... well IMO GF can and will introduce more big ol' sweepers, it's not about how they love to troll competitive balance, it's about how offense-oriented 'mons are infinitely cooler than defensive ones (in the eyes of a 6yo, it's 'zard versus lol Ferro) and thus commercially more favorable.
I see ways to redress the imbalance however -- maybe changing the HP formula? Like, instead of 2x base + iv's + ev's + level + 10, could we have 2.5x or 3x? This way the whole meta would become a tad bulkier (though admittedly this will render older, less OP sweepers from past gens less viable)
 
Or Game Freak can issue us some better hazards. It's a bit corny but of course we all know that all it takes is for a random fire type SR to pop up and make the whole meta even more offensive by taking down steel type walls lickity split. Or we could use Ice type hazards to keep Dragons / Therians in check.

Of course, a big change relating to this is going to really throw the metagame out of whack, so we'd better be careful what we wish for
 
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