Research Week #1 - OU Edition: Flygon, Machamp, Kingdra

[SkullCandy]

Research Week - Week 1
April 5th - April 20th​

EDIT: Extending deadline by 5 days to give people a chance to post their results.

Some of you who are familiar with DST's subforums may have noticed Research Week threads. I've decided to bring it to OU. OU is the most commonly played tier, however, loads of people complain that it's too static; that the same Pokemon are used over and over again. Basically, it lacks diversity. Well, Research Week is here aid the change that The Dark Horse Project has already initiated. With the help from the whole DST community we're going to prove that nearly any Pokemon can thrive in the treacherous grounds of OU.

Research Week's premise is simple. It serves as a place to discuss Pokemon that, although somewhat unorthodox, have the potential to be interesting choices in the OU metagame. Be it through; stats, movepool, ability or support capabilities, these Pokemon all have the chance to shine through this thread. Throughout the week, anyone who acheives a high enough ranking on the ladder using one or more of the featured Pokemon gets a mention, depending on their ladder ranking.

Feel free to post which sets have served you well and especially why! Theorymoning is fine (try to use them though), but when the end of the week nears I would rather have people posting which sets they actually used and how good/bad they were.


Rules:

• Be open-minded. Don't deride a Pokemon just because you think it's bad. Test it (and the others) out and at least see what it has to offer.
• Don't just use the standard sets posted on the analysis pages (if the Pokemon has an analysis page, that is). Feel free to explore any other options it has available.
• Don't suggest Pokemon in this thread, PM me or VM me or find me and maybe I'll include it in the next one!
• Don't get too off topic with your posts. It's fine to make one post explaining why X Pokemon is outclassed by Y Pokemon but don't keep reiterating your point!

Some of you may be reading this and thinking "Hey this is just a cheap rip-off of The Dark Horse Project"! Whilst this thread does have its similarities to birkal's thread it differs in certain areas. This thread is purely for researching the Pokemon I post. This thread isn't exploring any underused Pokemon that has potential in the OU metagame, it's for thoroughly exploring the competitive niches of a small number of Pokemon at a time.

To make this thread a bit more competitive I'm going to change the awards up a bit. Just to make this a bit more of a competition than Dark Horse I am only going to give awards to the top three users (for each Pokemon). At the end of the week, the users with the highest amout of ladder points for each Pokemon will get a Gold award, the second highest gets a Silver award, and the third receives a Bronze. Also, you can only be considered for an award if you get a ranking of over 1300. As the week develops more and more people will be chasing that No1 spot so, if whoever claims it first wants to keep their top spot, remember that you're going to have to keep laddering lest someone overtake you!

On to the Pokemon! This Research Week's title is...

Forgotten Favourites!​

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That's right. Flygon, Machamp and Kingdra. All enjoyed very high usage in DPPt OU but are now relegated to UU. Throughout this week we will discover how good these former monsters are in the OU metagame and what roles they fulfil succesfully, and which ones they don't!

Go ahead and post the teams you used for your endeavors as well as you PO alts (these must be new and not a previously solid alt). And don't forget to post screenshots of your ladder climbing acheivements to prove your greatness!

Flygon alts and award holders

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alts: That1Dragon, cuteboy, Whygon

Machamp alts and award holders

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alts: The Power Within, oeoeoeoe, The Reason Why, cuteboy, Macho Man

Kingdra alts and award holders

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alts: TrollFreak, tree man 68, cuteboy, Physics

 

[TrollFreak]

Kingdra- TrollFreak

 

[GARCHOMPZILLA]

I'll try using machamp and kingdra

 

[Jukain]

I shall be testing Machamp aka The Power Within.

Random alt name I shall use: The Power Within

EDIT: You spelled research wrong lol.

 

[DDRMaster]

I might decide to get in on this. I used Flygon on a random team that I made a while ago and it actually worked pretty well. It's access to Outrage for late game sweeping on a Scarf set gives it a small niche over Landorus.

 

[BLINGAS]

Is it ok if we have two alts? One for one pokemon, and another for a different poke?
If so
machamp : oeoeoe - NEVERMIND I GOT HAX'D ON THIS ALT. oeoeoeoe new alt
kingdra : tree man 68

 

[Katakiri]

Yes. Yes! Thank you for making this thread and giving me a reason to use these Pokemon.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

I really like the 3 pokemon the were chosen this weak. I have used Flygon plenty of times, but its just too weak for me. I like how it has roost, is very resistant to entry hazards though, and has great STABs. Machamp really needs more love, that Dynamic Punch, No guard makes it one of the worst pokemon to face, not to mention it has a pretty good movepool, and is a great BP recipent. Out of all the pokemon though I think I've used Kingdra the most. It has really cool typing, and doesn't really have a bad stat. It may have pretty much only have STAB moves, but very few pokemon are safe. I really wish I could ladder, but it doesn't look like I can til mid May.

 

[SkullCandy]

Is it ok if we have two alts? One for one pokemon, and another for a different poke?
If so
machamp : oeoeoe - NEVERMIND I GOT HAX'D ON THIS ALT. oeoeoeoe new alt
kingdra : tree man 68

Yes, actually you have to do this. Don't get to 1400 with Machamp and then switch it for Flygon or something.

 

[Xxtrabeast]

I'll be testing Flygon on alt: That1Dragon.

 

[Max212]

I will be testing with Machamp.

Alt: The Reason Why

 

[alamaster]

I'm gonna try and use a team with all 3

Alt: cuteboy

:3

 

[Vemane]

My thoughts on the 3...

Machamp- Its dynamic punch is super nice... but it is much easier to handle than it used to be. There are plenty of walls that couldn't care less about it, and more pokes that can outspeed and ko... it's the most viable of the 3 though

Flygon- It is so pitifully weak... i don't understand its use even last gen. It just doesn't cut it. Outrage? What are you expecting to dent exactly? Gengar? A scout is useless if it has no presence... especially with team preview. You don't need to scout anymore! (ie... why it turned from scouting to volt-turning). It has a nice stab combo and resists stealth rock but so do x amount of other pokes. Nope, never

Kingdra- What was the appeal... ever? People are all like "it's stats are amazing! It doesn't have a single lackluster one! OMG its typing! etc." Yet last I checked... 95 in each is hardly even decent... mediocre if anything. It had a small niche as a decent specs user with SS... emphasis on small. I don't get the appeal of this thing over the last 3 gens... 95 in a stat was rarely EVER good... don't see the difference now when everything is smaller. Ferrothorn walls it completely. Many things outspeed it and 1hko. There is no use

 

[Harsha]

Hmm. I can't say I agree with any of your reasoning. Machamp is more than a DynamicPunch user. It's a great disrupting tool. What's the opponent going to do if he or she lacks a Ghost-type? Well, the opponent is simply going to sacrifice something to DynamicPunch confusion. Even faster threats can't beat out Machamp because they risk losing to confusion hax, which is not exactly a hard-to-imagine prospect. Outspeeding is simply not everything when you can nullify that with confusion. Machamp's defenses, while not great, are not exactly shabby at 90 / 80 / 85.

Flygon is pitifully weak? Well, that's a fair thing to say, but let's not only look at the cons of Flygon. It has some things that all Dragons can only wish for: a resistance to Stealth Rock and STAB Earthquake. Sure, it's not the strongest Dragon out there, but what are you expecting from it?

It has a nice stab combo and resists stealth rock but so do x amount of other pokes. Nope, never

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say about it here, either. That's the reason you use Flygon. What other scout resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes? None.

Kingdra is not mediocre at all. The Dragon Dance + Rest set is anything but mediocre. You can't cripple it with status, you can't slowly whittle away at its health, and you can't set up on it. It's actually quite a decent Pokemon in the current metagame with key resistances to Scizor's Bullet Punch and only one weakness. In fact, the thing that holds it back in my opinion is Ferrothorn. However, that's easily solved by pairing it with Magnezone or something. Get rid of Ferrothorn and sweep is a good motto to follow when using Kingdra, and I'm not sure why else you view it as a bad Pokemon.

 

[Hwang]

@Vemane: I have complete opposite thoughts on Kingdra.
I've been playing with Kingdra a lot lately and I can say that it is one of my favorite Pokemon. Here is my favorite set:

Physical Sweeper Kingdra:

Kingdra @ Leftovers
Swift Swim
Adamant
252 Att/128 Def/128 SpDef
-Waterfall
-Outrage
-Rain Dance
-Dragon Dance
Physical Kingdra>>>>>>>Special Kingdra. Since there are so many Special Walls in the metagame, the Special variant of Kingdra has some real issues with Wallbreaking. With this set, 1 Rain Dance lets you outspeed a huge part of the Metagame+deal massive damage with Waterfall. Dragon Dance can be used to insure that Kingdra can outspeed even Choice Scarfers and gives Kingdra a nice boost in attack. The only things that will survive a Rain-boosted STAB Waterfall, are things that resist it. And in that case, you can just use Outrage, seeing as there is very little that resists both Waterfall and Outrage (I hate you Ferrothorn). With the Def and SpDef EVs, Kingdra will only be 1HKO'd by Dragon-Type moves. With team previews, you can see what seriously walls/cripples Kingdra and then use the rest of your team to do away with them, leaving Kingdra to sweep. Currently, Kingdra is my favorite Pokemon in the Gen 5 Metagame.

Issues with Kingdra:

Scarfed Dragons can cause a problem. I'm mentioning this because Scarf+Draco Meteor Latios really makes Kingdra sad.

Statuses really hurt Kingdra. Paralysis cripples Kingdra's speed and Burn makes his attacks do very little damage. Both of these statuses destroy Kingdra's chance at a sweep.

Ferrothorn. Completely walls this set. However, just pair Kingdra up with a Pokemon with a Fire-Attack, or even Magnezone, and you're set.

Other stuff:

PO alt: Physics
Ranking: It's not great but I hover around 1200. (On the Pokemon Online server, Smogon's server kept crashing so I haven't been using it lately).

My current team.

Kingdra in action:
I have to admit that my opponent played badly, but this does showcase Kingdra's power pretty well.

Anyway, I hope this post helps anybody who wants to use Kingdra!

 

[Vemane]

Hmm. I can't say I agree with any of your reasoning. Machamp is more than a DynamicPunch user. It's a great disrupting tool. What's the opponent going to do if he or she lacks a Ghost-type? Well, the opponent is simply going to sacrifice something to DynamicPunch confusion. Even faster threats can't beat out Machamp because they risk losing to confusion hax, which is not exactly a hard-to-imagine prospect. Outspeeding is simply not everything when you can nullify that with confusion. Machamp's defenses, while not great, are not exactly shabby at 90 / 80 / 85.

In terms of disrupting, that's what I was hoping to (briefly) imply in stating that he still has his nice dpunch. I meant faster threats koing it under the assumption that you have a free switch... and whether that is by sacking something or hoping for the best with confusion is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that if you do indeed get that switch in, machamp is goin down. However, this can be said about many pokemon and I do believe that machamp is the most viable of the selection.

Flygon is pitifully weak? Well, that's a fair thing to say, but let's not only look at the cons of Flygon. It has some things that all Dragons can only wish for: a resistance to Stealth Rock and STAB Earthquake. Sure, it's not the strongest Dragon out there, but what are you expecting from it? I'm really not sure what you're trying to say about it here, either. That's the reason you use Flygon. What other scout resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes? None.
Other dragons don't need a resistance to sr though... they set up with dd (which flygon doesn't have) and they sweep with their 130+ base attack stats. All flygon can really do is u turn around. Don't get me wrong, it is fantastic at what it does... but that juob is so unnecesary in this metagame that it is wholly irrelevant. Mienshao can do a comparable job with regenerator but the difference is that mienshao can 1hko plenty of things unboosted... flygon can't. Mienshao also has the side liberty of being able to stay in and boost when scouting isn't needed. Flygon is not the most useless of the bunch because it is inadequate at performing its role... it is the most useless because its role is inadequate in the current metagame.


Kingdra is not mediocre at all. The Dragon Dance + Rest set is anything but mediocre. You can't cripple it with status, you can't slowly whittle away at its health, and you can't set up on it. It's actually quite a decent Pokemon in the current metagame with key resistances to Scizor's Bullet Punch and only one weakness. In fact, the thing that holds it back in my opinion is Ferrothorn. However, that's easily solved by pairing it with Magnezone or something. Get rid of Ferrothorn and sweep is a good motto to follow when using Kingdra, and I'm not sure why else you view it as a bad Pokemon.
I would assume you are talking about a chestorest set in the second sentance... but that is true about ALL chesto-rest pokemon... except those all have much better stats. Look at the top 25 in ou. How many of them have steel resistances? Over half of them! It isn't exactly a unique thing to boast about. If you get rid of ferro/other steels, why not just use dragonite... or salamence... or haxorus. Or just don't get rid of steels and use Dragonite or Salamence... or Terrakion or Volcarona or even something like cobalion. All possess far better stats and it really shows. It is severely outclassed by nearly all similar-rolled ou pokemon... which is why it isn't ou and why it doesn't /belong/ in ou.

 

[Vemane]

@Vemane: I have complete opposite thoughts on Kingdra.
I've been playing with Kingdra a lot lately and I can say that it is one of my favorite Pokemon. Here is my favorite set:

Physical Sweeper Kingdra:

Kingdra @ Leftovers
Swift Swim
Adamant
252 Att/128 Def/128 SpDef
-Waterfall
-Outrage
-Rain Dance
-Dragon Dance
Physical Kingdra>>>>>>>Special Kingdra. Since there are so many Special Walls in the metagame, the Special variant of Kingdra has some real issues with Wallbreaking. With this set, 1 Rain Dance lets you outspeed a huge part of the Metagame+deal massive damage with Waterfall. Dragon Dance can be used to insure that Kingdra can outspeed even Choice Scarfers and gives Kingdra a nice boost in attack. The only things that will survive a Rain-boosted STAB Waterfall, are things that resist it. And in that case, you can just use Outrage, seeing as there is very little that resists both Waterfall and Outrage (I hate you Ferrothorn). With the Def and SpDef EVs, Kingdra will only be 1HKO'd by Dragon-Type moves. With team previews, you can see what seriously walls/cripples Kingdra and then use the rest of your team to do away with them, leaving Kingdra to sweep. Currently, Kingdra is my favorite Pokemon in the Gen 5 Metagame.

Issues with Kingdra:

Scarfed Dragons can cause a problem. I'm mentioning this because Scarf+Draco Meteor Latios really makes Kingdra sad.

Statuses really hurt Kingdra. Paralysis cripples Kingdra's speed and Burn makes his attacks do very little damage. Both of these statuses destroy Kingdra's chance at a sweep.

Ferrothorn. Completely walls this set. However, just pair Kingdra up with a Pokemon with a Fire-Attack, or even Magnezone, and you're set.

Other stuff:

PO alt: Physics
Ranking: It's not great but I hover around 1200. (On the Pokemon Online server, Smogon's server kept crashing so I haven't been using it lately).

My current team.

Kingdra in action:
I have to admit that my opponent played badly, but this does showcase Kingdra's power pretty well.

Anyway, I hope this post helps anybody who wants to use Kingdra!

Sharpedo does this exact set without the need to set up at all

 

[Hwang]

Sharpedo does this exact set without the need to set up at all

Really? Explain how. Let's be honest, Sharpedo is made of paper, and when it can't get the 1hko, it's done for. And they are plenty of Pokemon in OU that Wall Sharpedo. Also, Sharpedo might as well just surrender when a Priority user comes in, and there is not a shortage of priority users in OU. While Sharpedo may do extremely well in UU, it just does not fit well in OU.

 

[Vemane]

Really? Explain how. Let's be honest, Sharpedo is made of paper, and when it can't get the 1hko, it's done for. And they are plenty of Pokemon in OU that Wall Sharpedo. Also, Sharpedo might as well just surrender when a Priority user comes in, and there is not a shortage of priority users in OU. While Sharpedo may do extremely well in UU, it just does not fit well in OU.

That is why it is a clean up sweeper... as that is why you would use either sharpedo or kingdra. Except the thing is, for kingdra to be useful, you either need to dragon dance (outclassed by x dragon) or rain dance (sharpedo is stronger and doesn't need setup, as well as having the ability to be used alongside drizzle). In any sense, kingdra is always outclassed as it has lost its single niche

 

[Hwang]

That is why it is a clean up sweeper... as that is why you would use either sharpedo or kingdra. Except the thing is, for kingdra to be useful, you either need to dragon dance (outclassed by x dragon) or rain dance (sharpedo is stronger and doesn't need setup, as well as having the ability to be used alongside drizzle). In any sense, kingdra is always outclassed as it has lost its single niche

But the thing is that almost every team possesses multiple Priority moves and plenty of Pokemon that can wall Sharpedo. Just look at the top 10 Pokemon in OU.

Scizor-Priority.
Dragonite-Can take a few hits AND has Priority.
Heatran-Sharpedo owns it.
Rotom-W-Can take a hit and can easily crush Sharpedo.
Tyranitar-Can take a hit and strike back.
Politoed-Can take a hit, but I doubt it can hit hard enough to beat Sharpedo.
Ferrothorn-Sharpedo has no chance.
Terrakion-Sharpedo will win unless it hasn't received many Speed Boosts yet.
Gliscor-Tough time 1HKOing this.
Jirachi-Can't 1HKO this.

If you can get rid of all of these Pokemon and all the numerous Walls and Sweep breakers, I don't really think that it matters a whole lot what the Sweeper is. I prefer my Sweepers to be able to take down numerous threats, not just weak Pokemon that it has a type-advantage against.

Anyway, this is not a thread about Sharpedo, so if you prefer Sharpedo over Kingdra then so be it.

 

[Vemane]

But the thing is that almost every team possesses multiple Priority moves and plenty of Pokemon that can wall Sharpedo. Just look at the top 10 Pokemon in OU.

Scizor-Priority.
Dragonite-Can take a few hits AND has Priority.
Heatran-Sharpedo owns it.
Rotom-W-Can take a hit and can easily crush Sharpedo.
Tyranitar-Can take a hit and strike back.
Politoed-Can take a hit, but I doubt it can hit hard enough to beat Sharpedo.
Ferrothorn-Sharpedo has no chance.
Terrakion-Sharpedo will win unless it hasn't received many Speed Boosts yet.
Gliscor-Tough time 1HKOing this.
Jirachi-Can't 1HKO this.

If you can get rid of all of these Pokemon and all the numerous Walls and Sweep breakers, I don't really think that it matters a whole lot what the Sweeper is. I prefer my Sweepers to be able to take down numerous threats, not just weak Pokemon that it has a type-advantage against.

Anyway, this is not a thread about Sharpedo, so if you prefer Sharpedo over Kingdra then so be it.

Dragonite: 1hkod after rocks, sharpedo can take an espeed
Ttar: 1hkod in rain by waterfall (ie... weather war shall commence!)
Gliscor: 1hkod in rain
Jirachi: Can ko with waterfall/eq after 3 layers of spikes (or late game... ie clean up)

Kingdra does have its merits as a special attacker, but physical is still completely outclassed, not just by sharpedo

 

[Myzozoa]

Sharpedo would be very lucky to survive the espeed, it is extremely frail. As for that list of calculations, what move set are you using? Max special attack hydro pump from a LO sharpedo will wreck every pokemon on that list except Politoed, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn assuming rain.

I have always thought of Kingdra as a very good late game sweeper, especially if you can lure scizor for it to set-up on. I generally use a no-weather team with Latios and/or Gengar in order to force their scizor to switch in. Then Kingdra sets up rain dance and goes to work. This is extremely affective against Sand teams (tyranitar is very easy to lure and kill in my experience) and other no weather teams. It's much less powerful against rain teams unless you have a way of beating ferrothorn and tentacruel and politoed, but on the upside you don't need to use rain dance to set-up and rain boosted LO hydro pump does a lot of damage to Ferrothorn and Politoed such that repeated switch ins are not possible for any but Tentacruel.

 

[Hwang]

Dragonite: 1hkod after rocks, sharpedo can take an espeed
Ttar: 1hkod in rain by waterfall (ie... weather war shall commence!)
Gliscor: 1hkod in rain
Jirachi: Can ko with waterfall/eq after 3 layers of spikes (or late game... ie clean up)

Kingdra does have its merits as a special attacker, but physical is still completely outclassed, not just by sharpedo

Okay, I will admit that Sharpedo is a great Clean Up Sweeper. But that is really it's only niche, if you send it in to early, it is toast. That's why I prefer Kingdra, its defenses make it so even if the enemy manages to outspeed Kingdra or survive a shot, the enemy cannot 1hko Kingdra.

And you are not always going to have 3 layers of Spikes or a layer of Rocks to assist you. I don't like to assume those kind of things when I'm doing damage calculations. I was using the Physical Sharpedo set to do the calculations, seeing as we were comparing Physical Sweepers.

Kingdra is not really outclassed. Because of it's good defenses, it can safely spend a turn or two to set up Rain Dance/Dragon Dance. That's why I like it so much, it is bulky enough to take some hits, and it can dish out a lot of damage. It doesn't have to wait until late game to come out.

 

[Harsha]

Umm. Dragonite does 106% - 121% with ExtremeSpeed. Base 40 Defenses are not too good... Also Gliscor is not OHKOed.

 

[XcRunner]

I'm in. I'll test Machamp with the alt Macho Man