Thats not true, though. Magnezone, Metagross, azu if not at +2/bulky azu, keys, megalop... I'm honestly not even liking it that much.
That being said, I don't mind it gone (because I don't use it), but it is counterable, and viably so.
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Return'd
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
That being said, I don't mind it gone (because I don't use it), but it is counterable, and viably so.
None of those are counters though. Sure they can win in a 1v1, but if pinsir clicks EQ or feint instead of SD, They get 2HKOd. Attitionally, it's very easy to punish scarf magnezone or twave, or run protect for fakeout. It's not like these things trap pinsir
he said the only answers, not the only counters. Still, Metagross is a counter, Rotom-W is a counter, Rotom heat is a counter, Skarm in a counter, Zapdos is a counter, ladorus is a counter, hippowdon is a counter, quagsire is a counter... I was naming the checks with the most alternate uses. Its no where near unwallable.
tehy
Banned deucer.
most of those counters without recovery (i.e. ones offensive teams want to use) are pretty shaky after rocks and switching into a Feint.
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 129-153 (33.7 - 40%)
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 289-342 (75.6 - 89.5%)
(for funsies: scarf lando-t) +1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 394-465 (123.5 - 145.7%)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 87-102 (28.9 - 33.8%)
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 174-204 (57.8 - 67.7%)
(28 + 57 + 6 + 6 = 98; if I have rocks up both times, you need min rolls both times.)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W / H: 84-100 (27.7 - 33%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
min rolls add up to 100, rocks negate leftovers well enough for rotom-w, but i guess it's not a terrible counter. Just, tends to get worn down as a rule.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
rocks makes it 100%
now I can see an argument that rocks aren't up. but to my thesis
a big deal with this form of pinsir as opposed to regular pinsir, is that it doesn't have to choose between quick attacking (faster offensive threat) and returning the switch-in, it can just do both. So how are your counters going to avoid taking that feint? I guess most balance have to run zapdos.
in general I wish TI would consider an idea of 'priority cannot be return'd' because pinsir, while probably the best priority abuser, isn't the only one. Now any normal can have a beast quick attack, many steels and fightings and ices and waters are going to go ham with their stab priority, etc.
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 129-153 (33.7 - 40%)
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 289-342 (75.6 - 89.5%)
(for funsies: scarf lando-t) +1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 394-465 (123.5 - 145.7%)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 87-102 (28.9 - 33.8%)
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 174-204 (57.8 - 67.7%)
(28 + 57 + 6 + 6 = 98; if I have rocks up both times, you need min rolls both times.)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W / H: 84-100 (27.7 - 33%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
min rolls add up to 100, rocks negate leftovers well enough for rotom-w, but i guess it's not a terrible counter. Just, tends to get worn down as a rule.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
rocks makes it 100%
now I can see an argument that rocks aren't up. but to my thesis
a big deal with this form of pinsir as opposed to regular pinsir, is that it doesn't have to choose between quick attacking (faster offensive threat) and returning the switch-in, it can just do both. So how are your counters going to avoid taking that feint? I guess most balance have to run zapdos.
in general I wish TI would consider an idea of 'priority cannot be return'd' because pinsir, while probably the best priority abuser, isn't the only one. Now any normal can have a beast quick attack, many steels and fightings and ices and waters are going to go ham with their stab priority, etc.
Whatever the case maybe, the best strategy for Return'd right now is setting up Mega Pinsir to sweep. The Steel and Electric types are taken care of by Dugtrio or Pursuit.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-returnd-1040
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-returnd-1040
Let's me put some threats and interesting concepts of Megas:
Threats and interesting concepts:
Megas:
Oh boy, the beauty of this thing. Mega Medicham is pretty amazing in the Return'd metagame thanks to its ability, pure power. Medicham has access to a really strong movepull which consists of moves such as High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt and Ice Punch but why not add to that? Thanks to the concept of this metagame Medicham can run a whopping 102 BP Fake out. This can seriously damage a lot of mons and works especially well against frailer mons such as weavile and Mega Beedrill. If you aren't that keen to run Fake out you can always run bullet punch instead. Bullet punch is another interesting move due to priority and being able to hit Fairy and Ice types which can really be annoying, fairies in particular for medicham, ice types because of Ice Sharp spam. If you don't wanna run either, Power Up Punch is a nice option with a niche, although this is outclassed by HJK in terms of power it can make Medicham a really dangerous "set up sweeper" and extremely hard to switch into when combined with a priority move.
Rename Mega-Pinsir meta when? Mega Pinsir, god, where do I start. Aerilate is probably one of the best abilities in the game turning normal type moves into a STAB flying type move and giving them 1.3x power, especially when combined with Mega-Pinsir's monstrous attack stat. Not to mention, Mega Pinsir also has a decent speed stat allowing it to outspeed some key threats in the Return'd metagame. Now you ask, why is pinsir so good? One word, priority. Priority is amazing in this metagame, especially weaker forms such as Aqua Jet, Quick attack etc. Now, thanks to aerilate Mega Pinsir's normal type priority STABs are boosted these include both Feint and Quick Attack. Those two moves are what makes Mega Pinsir the monster it is in this metagame. However, feint completely outclasses Quick Attack due to having the same priority as Extreme Speed which really helps against ESpeed abusers such as Dragonite. Feint also outclasses Quick attack as it can break through protection which is really helpful against things such as Mega Beedrill. Pair this with EQ so you can deal with Electric and Rock types and you're pretty much sorted. One thing that Mega Pinsir does not appreciate is Rocks, so a defogger or spinner is much appreciated. Mega-Pinsir won't last for long anyway probably.
Mega Beedrill is pretty good but its not as good as it could be due to Mega Pinsir running around and all that Feint Spam. The thing that makes Mega Beedrill great is adaptability and it's amazing attack and speed stats. (Oh look, what a surprise, it's good thanks to an ability) Although Mega Beedrill is an amazing Fast attack, its terrible bulk and weakness to rocks puts it down. Mega Beedrill is too frail to set up a SD but thanks to this metagame it has a somewhat reliable attack raising move. Fell Stinger. Fell stinger hits as hard as X-scissor in this metagame and has a 100% chance to raise the users attack stat after knocking out an opponent. Not to mention that it gets boosted by Adaptability making it hit extremely hard. Pair it with Poison Jab and Drill run Mega Beedrill can be a real pain to switch into. One thing that Mega Beedrill does dislike is priority, one of the most common things in the metagame, it's something else which weighs Mega Beedrill down in viability, so it's really eh but at +1 it really is a dangerous sweeper after pokemon with priority are gone.
Look, another mon with one of the most common moves in the metagame! Here is another pokemon who dies to Mega Pinsir and priority but outclasses Mega Beedrill due to it's resistance to rocks and once move. Fake Out. Fake out paired with Mega Lopunny's 136 Base attack and now a 102 base power as well as combining it with STAB makes Mega Lopunny pretty annoying to switch into/deal with. Not even steel's or rock's can switch in thanks to Mega Lopunny's access to HJK with a whopping 130 Base Power. If fake out doesn't really stand out to you, you can also try Power Up Punch, one of the other moves which can be pretty great in this metagame if used properly. With a Combination of Power Up Punch/Fake Out/Ice Punch and Return Mega Lopunny can be a pain to deal with if you have no priority remaining, especially at +1. Scrappy also stops ghost types being easily to switch in on an HJK and causing Mega Lopunny to crash. Another option is Quick Attack, this has the same BP as return now and it can be used to stop Priority Spam against weaker mons + STAB.
This thing is a God and always has been since the release of ORAS and it has caused this thing to be suspected in the OU tier, anyways enough with the irrelevant information, lets discuss this thing Return'd! Thanks to metagross' great typing and ability as well as the ability to check Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross is pretty fun. With access to STAB Priority Bullet Punch Mega Metagross is literally pretty annoying. Not only does Bullet Punch have STAB Priority it also is boosted by tough claws which makes a bullet punch an amazingly strong move in the Return'd metagame. Although you might see this to be outclassed by Meteor Mash thanks to having a 20% to raise the attack it's not really that relevant in a meta where priority pretty much dominates. This is also able to pick up Key Kills on: Weavile, Mega Beedrill, Clefable, Hoopa-Unbound, Lopunny-Mega and etc.
Both of these mons are interesting concepts which hasn't been discussed yet, probably because of its noticeable flaws (Rocks Weakness, Dies to most priority, Not the best defenses, Fake Out Spam) but the pair of ice types have one niche which other pokemon don't get. Mega glalie has yet another -ate ability, refrigerate. Although this isn't that relevant for what I will be discussing about Mega Glalie it certainly is worth a mention as it is able to hit extremely hard and break through bulky walls. What glalie does have which helps it is Ice Shard. The joy of priority, seriously. Ice Shard is a nice STAB (which sadly isn't boosted by refrigerate) being able to hit flying types and dragons such as Tornadus, Lati@s, Garchomp, Lando-T etc or even frail attackers such as Mega Beedrill and Hoopa-U. It is also great for revenge killing pokemon who are near death. The same reasons go for Mega Abomasnow but it's speed puts it down severely, however its ability to spam Blizzard makes up for it.
Originally I hadn't thought of putting this on here but I took a step back and thought it was worth it. What Mega Aerodactyl has been missing is a strong flying STAB but now thanks to the boost of its moves it can hit a really hard 102BP Wing attack or Aerial Ace. It's great attack and speed stats make it annoying as well as being able to resist Mega Pinsir's feint and Fake Out from abusers such as Mega Lopunny or Mega Medicham. Tough claws also boost the power of Wing attack to really high levels and is able to OHKO a lot of things. (Fighting types, Grass Types, Frail mons) It also is a nice Mega Pinsir counter as it's immune to Earthquake and can resist feint
I'll be doing a Regular mon version of this when I have more time on my hands.
Threats and interesting concepts:
Megas:
Oh boy, the beauty of this thing. Mega Medicham is pretty amazing in the Return'd metagame thanks to its ability, pure power. Medicham has access to a really strong movepull which consists of moves such as High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt and Ice Punch but why not add to that? Thanks to the concept of this metagame Medicham can run a whopping 102 BP Fake out. This can seriously damage a lot of mons and works especially well against frailer mons such as weavile and Mega Beedrill. If you aren't that keen to run Fake out you can always run bullet punch instead. Bullet punch is another interesting move due to priority and being able to hit Fairy and Ice types which can really be annoying, fairies in particular for medicham, ice types because of Ice Sharp spam. If you don't wanna run either, Power Up Punch is a nice option with a niche, although this is outclassed by HJK in terms of power it can make Medicham a really dangerous "set up sweeper" and extremely hard to switch into when combined with a priority move.
Mega Beedrill is pretty good but its not as good as it could be due to Mega Pinsir running around and all that Feint Spam. The thing that makes Mega Beedrill great is adaptability and it's amazing attack and speed stats. (Oh look, what a surprise, it's good thanks to an ability) Although Mega Beedrill is an amazing Fast attack, its terrible bulk and weakness to rocks puts it down. Mega Beedrill is too frail to set up a SD but thanks to this metagame it has a somewhat reliable attack raising move. Fell Stinger. Fell stinger hits as hard as X-scissor in this metagame and has a 100% chance to raise the users attack stat after knocking out an opponent. Not to mention that it gets boosted by Adaptability making it hit extremely hard. Pair it with Poison Jab and Drill run Mega Beedrill can be a real pain to switch into. One thing that Mega Beedrill does dislike is priority, one of the most common things in the metagame, it's something else which weighs Mega Beedrill down in viability, so it's really eh but at +1 it really is a dangerous sweeper after pokemon with priority are gone.
Look, another mon with one of the most common moves in the metagame! Here is another pokemon who dies to Mega Pinsir and priority but outclasses Mega Beedrill due to it's resistance to rocks and once move. Fake Out. Fake out paired with Mega Lopunny's 136 Base attack and now a 102 base power as well as combining it with STAB makes Mega Lopunny pretty annoying to switch into/deal with. Not even steel's or rock's can switch in thanks to Mega Lopunny's access to HJK with a whopping 130 Base Power. If fake out doesn't really stand out to you, you can also try Power Up Punch, one of the other moves which can be pretty great in this metagame if used properly. With a Combination of Power Up Punch/Fake Out/Ice Punch and Return Mega Lopunny can be a pain to deal with if you have no priority remaining, especially at +1. Scrappy also stops ghost types being easily to switch in on an HJK and causing Mega Lopunny to crash. Another option is Quick Attack, this has the same BP as return now and it can be used to stop Priority Spam against weaker mons + STAB.
This thing is a God and always has been since the release of ORAS and it has caused this thing to be suspected in the OU tier, anyways enough with the irrelevant information, lets discuss this thing Return'd! Thanks to metagross' great typing and ability as well as the ability to check Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross is pretty fun. With access to STAB Priority Bullet Punch Mega Metagross is literally pretty annoying. Not only does Bullet Punch have STAB Priority it also is boosted by tough claws which makes a bullet punch an amazingly strong move in the Return'd metagame. Although you might see this to be outclassed by Meteor Mash thanks to having a 20% to raise the attack it's not really that relevant in a meta where priority pretty much dominates. This is also able to pick up Key Kills on: Weavile, Mega Beedrill, Clefable, Hoopa-Unbound, Lopunny-Mega and etc.
Both of these mons are interesting concepts which hasn't been discussed yet, probably because of its noticeable flaws (Rocks Weakness, Dies to most priority, Not the best defenses, Fake Out Spam) but the pair of ice types have one niche which other pokemon don't get. Mega glalie has yet another -ate ability, refrigerate. Although this isn't that relevant for what I will be discussing about Mega Glalie it certainly is worth a mention as it is able to hit extremely hard and break through bulky walls. What glalie does have which helps it is Ice Shard. The joy of priority, seriously. Ice Shard is a nice STAB (which sadly isn't boosted by refrigerate) being able to hit flying types and dragons such as Tornadus, Lati@s, Garchomp, Lando-T etc or even frail attackers such as Mega Beedrill and Hoopa-U. It is also great for revenge killing pokemon who are near death. The same reasons go for Mega Abomasnow but it's speed puts it down severely, however its ability to spam Blizzard makes up for it.
Originally I hadn't thought of putting this on here but I took a step back and thought it was worth it. What Mega Aerodactyl has been missing is a strong flying STAB but now thanks to the boost of its moves it can hit a really hard 102BP Wing attack or Aerial Ace. It's great attack and speed stats make it annoying as well as being able to resist Mega Pinsir's feint and Fake Out from abusers such as Mega Lopunny or Mega Medicham. Tough claws also boost the power of Wing attack to really high levels and is able to OHKO a lot of things. (Fighting types, Grass Types, Frail mons) It also is a nice Mega Pinsir counter as it's immune to Earthquake and can resist feint
I'll be doing a Regular mon version of this when I have more time on my hands.
Cool Post!Let's me put some threats and interesting concepts of Megas:
Threats and interesting concepts:
Megas:
Oh boy, the beauty of this thing. Mega Medicham is pretty amazing in the Return'd metagame thanks to its ability, pure power. Medicham has access to a really strong movepull which consists of moves such as High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt and Ice Punch but why not add to that? Thanks to the concept of this metagame Medicham can run a whopping 102 BP Fake out. This can seriously damage a lot of mons and works especially well against frailer mons such as weavile and Mega Beedrill. If you aren't that keen to run Fake out you can always run bullet punch instead. Bullet punch is another interesting move due to priority and being able to hit Fairy and Ice types which can really be annoying, fairies in particular for medicham, ice types because of Ice Sharp spam. If you don't wanna run either, Power Up Punch is a nice option with a niche, although this is outclassed by HJK in terms of power it can make Medicham a really dangerous "set up sweeper" and extremely hard to switch into when combined with a priority move.
Rename Mega-Pinsir meta when?Mega Pinsir, god, where do I start. Aerilate is probably one of the best abilities in the game turning normal type moves into a STAB flying type move and giving them 1.3x power, especially when combined with Mega-Pinsir's monstrous attack stat. Not to mention, Mega Pinsir also has a decent speed stat allowing it to outspeed some key threats in the Return'd metagame. Now you ask, why is pinsir so good? One word, priority. Priority is amazing in this metagame, especially weaker forms such as Aqua Jet, Quick attack etc. Now, thanks to aerilate Mega Pinsir's normal type priority STABs are boosted these include both Feint and Quick Attack. Those two moves are what makes Mega Pinsir the monster it is in this metagame. However, feint completely outclasses Quick Attack due to having the same priority as Extreme Speed which really helps against ESpeed abusers such as Dragonite. Feint also outclasses Quick attack as it can break through protection which is really helpful against things such as Mega Beedrill. Pair this with EQ so you can deal with Electric and Rock types and you're pretty much sorted. One thing that Mega Pinsir does not appreciate is Rocks, so a defogger or spinner is much appreciated. Mega-Pinsir won't last for long anyway probably.
Mega Beedrill is pretty good but its not as good as it could be due to Mega Pinsir running around and all that Feint Spam. The thing that makes Mega Beedrill great is adaptability and it's amazing attack and speed stats. (Oh look, what a surprise, it's good thanks to an ability) Although Mega Beedrill is an amazing Fast attack, its terrible bulk and weakness to rocks puts it down. Mega Beedrill is too frail to set up a SD but thanks to this metagame it has a somewhat reliable attack raising move. Fell Stinger. Fell stinger hits as hard as X-scissor in this metagame and has a 100% chance to raise the users attack stat after knocking out an opponent. Not to mention that it gets boosted by Adaptability making it hit extremely hard. Pair it with Poison Jab and Drill run Mega Beedrill can be a real pain to switch into. One thing that Mega Beedrill does dislike is priority, one of the most common things in the metagame, it's something else which weighs Mega Beedrill down in viability, so it's really eh but at +1 it really is a dangerous sweeper after pokemon with priority are gone.
Look, another mon with one of the most common moves in the metagame! Here is another pokemon who dies to Mega Pinsir and priority but outclasses Mega Beedrill due to it's resistance to rocks and once move. Fake Out. Fake out paired with Mega Lopunny's 136 Base attack and now a 102 base power as well as combining it with STAB makes Mega Lopunny pretty annoying to switch into/deal with. Not even steel's or rock's can switch in thanks to Mega Lopunny's access to HJK with a whopping 130 Base Power. If fake out doesn't really stand out to you, you can also try Power Up Punch, one of the other moves which can be pretty great in this metagame if used properly. With a Combination of Power Up Punch/Fake Out/Ice Punch and Return Mega Lopunny can be a pain to deal with if you have no priority remaining, especially at +1. Scrappy also stops ghost types being easily to switch in on an HJK and causing Mega Lopunny to crash. Another option is Quick Attack, this has the same BP as return now and it can be used to stop Priority Spam against weaker mons + STAB.
This thing is a God and always has been since the release of ORAS and it has caused this thing to be suspected in the OU tier, anyways enough with the irrelevant information, lets discuss this thing Return'd! Thanks to metagross' great typing and ability as well as the ability to check Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross is pretty fun. With access to STAB Priority Bullet Punch Mega Metagross is literally pretty annoying. Not only does Bullet Punch have STAB Priority it also is boosted by tough claws which makes a bullet punch an amazingly strong move in the Return'd metagame. Although you might see this to be outclassed by Meteor Mash thanks to having a 20% to raise the attack it's not really that relevant in a meta where priority pretty much dominates. This is also able to pick up Key Kills on: Weavile, Mega Beedrill, Clefable, Hoopa-Unbound, Lopunny-Mega and etc.
Both of these mons are interesting concepts which hasn't been discussed yet, probably because of its noticeable flaws (Rocks Weakness, Dies to most priority, Not the best defenses, Fake Out Spam) but the pair of ice types have one niche which other pokemon don't get. Mega glalie has yet another -ate ability, refrigerate. Although this isn't that relevant for what I will be discussing about Mega Glalie it certainly is worth a mention as it is able to hit extremely hard and break through bulky walls. What glalie does have which helps it is Ice Shard. The joy of priority, seriously. Ice Shard is a nice STAB (which sadly isn't boosted by refrigerate) being able to hit flying types and dragons such as Tornadus, Lati@s, Garchomp, Lando-T etc or even frail attackers such as Mega Beedrill and Hoopa-U. It is also great for revenge killing pokemon who are near death. The same reasons go for Mega Abomasnow but it's speed puts it down severely, however its ability to spam Blizzard makes up for it.
Originally I hadn't thought of putting this on here but I took a step back and thought it was worth it. What Mega Aerodactyl has been missing is a strong flying STAB but now thanks to the boost of its moves it can hit a really hard 102BP Wing attack or Aerial Ace. It's great attack and speed stats make it annoying as well as being able to resist Mega Pinsir's feint and Fake Out from abusers such as Mega Lopunny or Mega Medicham. Tough claws also boost the power of Wing attack to really high levels and is able to OHKO a lot of things. (Fighting types, Grass Types, Frail mons) It also is a nice Mega Pinsir counter as it's immune to Earthquake and can resist feint
I'll be doing a Regular mon version of this when I have more time on my hands.
Some minor criticism/critique-
Mega Glalie/Abomasnow are mostly outclassed by the nonmega mamoswine
Similarly, Mega medicham is largely underwhelming (from my experience, so feel free to correct this if you have played with it and have a good argument or w/e) by Mega Lopunny, who has a better speed tier, cant be switched in on by ghosts, has an immunity to shadow sneak instead of a weakness as well as a better speed tier. While it does do slightly less with fakout, it also doesn't have a terrible premega speed.
Yeah, some of them are pretty outclassed but have notable niches.
They were worth a mention though, just incase.
And Mega Medicham is pretty good (This is thanks to Bullet Punch) but as a fake out user is outclassed by mega lop.
BAN Mega pinsir!
Although, another way to solve this problem is to ban Feint. Why feint? When using Feint as the 1st Moveslot, it becomes an 102 Power, +2 Priority Move that BREAKS Protect. What does this mean? Feint can break protecting moves, just like Hyperspace hole meaning that Status + Protect/Protect for Leftovers Stalling basically doesn't work
Absol, Accelgor, Blaziken, Breloom, Chesnaught, Combusken, Croagunk, Electabuzz, Electivire, Elekid, Farfetch'd, Flygon, Gallade, Gligar, Gliscor, Goodra, Hariyama, Heracross, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Houndoom, Houndour, Infernape, Kabutops, Kecleon, Lucario, Makuhita, Medicham, Meditite, Meowth, Mienfoo, Mienshao, Monferno, Persian, Pikachu, Pinsir, Raichu, Riolu, Sableye, Scizor, Scyther, Sharpedo, Shelmet, Skarmory, Skuntank, Smeargle, Sneasel, Stunky, Torchic, Toxicroak, Trapinch, Tyrogue, Vibrava, Weavile, Yanma, Yanmega, Zangoose
That's a list of every pokemon that can learn feint! Notable mons being Zangoose, Weavile, Lucario, Mienshao, Infernape, Gallade, Heracross, Mega Pinsir and Persian.
This move allows them to become extremely powerful revenge killers with the ability to easily rampage through offensive teams unless they carry fake out, or faster feint pokemon. However, fake out can easily be blocked by protect, invalidating that move. Due to this, Feint vs offense becomes a simple matchup of who has the faster feint.
But, why is this more broken then extreme speed, or quick attack? While this is obvious, the fact that feint breaks protect coupled with 102 power and +2 Priority allows it to be so strong compared to other pokemon. It doesn't even have that bad of a PP count, sitting at 16 compared to Extreme Speed's 8.
Feint also means that most mons can't outprioritize and attempt to revenge-kill, taking out that possibility entirely, unless they can actually take the hit, which is usually uncommon for feint's best user, Mega Pinsir.
Mega Pinsir is a mon that has the amazing ability, Aerilate, coupled with a sky high 155 attack and Swords Dance. This and it's decent 105 Speed tier put it as the best feint abuser.
As the calcs above say, Mega Pinsir is extremely powerful, if not broken with feint, and feint as a whole is just an unsavory part of this metagame, that would probably be better without it.
Er, what? feint is a normal type move. Its a slightly better espeed, especially since no one uses protect except for wishtect and a safe mega-evo. Even Pinsir isn't broken because of feint- the only things it would miss out on outspeeding with quick attack that it didn't before with feint are Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny.
Every Pinsir I've seen runs protect, must be just me then. It also outspeeds everything with Extreme Speed, anything with a 106 or up base speed stat that doesn't learn feint, or anything that runs +1 priority moves.
I have a question:
Why we just didn't disable boost for priority moves?
I said earlier is too broken and makes this Meta unhealthy.
The best strategy is spam Priority or boost AND spam after that.
Feint is too broken, but we van still just nerf this move for disabling boost for priority moves...
Wihout this move... again we got spam Aqua Jets, Quick Atacks, Mach Punches etc.
Boosted Priority is bad. Just disable boost for priority (like for multi hits moves).
Thats what I think about this...
EDIT 1: sorry for mistakes - I sit right now on tablet...
yes, and the only relevant priority users faster than 105 speed that don't get feint are mega metagross, mega lopunny, and IG scarfers. Espeed is a nice point, but there aren't *that* many relevant users of that either. and of those that are? None of them majorly benefit besides dragonite.
The protect pinsir is only because of MLop.
^
As for Feint, it hasn't proven to be a problem on any of those Pokemon; it's only a problem on Mega Pinsir.
How about we don't go ahead screaming for a ban alright? The metagame is just now today playable...
Like, no way this is every going to favour stall like what... No. That's not happening anytime soon, and if you start banning priority... Well... It'll get bland. It removes the cool niche of the metagame and I don't really want that. I'd be in favour of banning Mega pinsir but not a priority clause nor a nerf or whatever. It's an offensive metagame at heart, deal with it.
Now
Doublade
So I was playing with TI earlier and ohmygod. Doublade is a top tier threat. It now has an excellent powerful priority in shadow sneak, not only that it's really hard to check on offense. I can't think of a lot of fire types that live +2 shadow sneak and dark types hate sacred sword. The last move is basically whatever you want. Ground types? Magnet rise. Clefable? Iron head.
Super top tier threat - prepare for it
Like, no way this is every going to favour stall like what... No. That's not happening anytime soon, and if you start banning priority... Well... It'll get bland. It removes the cool niche of the metagame and I don't really want that. I'd be in favour of banning Mega pinsir but not a priority clause nor a nerf or whatever. It's an offensive metagame at heart, deal with it.
Now
Doublade
So I was playing with TI earlier and ohmygod. Doublade is a top tier threat. It now has an excellent powerful priority in shadow sneak, not only that it's really hard to check on offense. I can't think of a lot of fire types that live +2 shadow sneak and dark types hate sacred sword. The last move is basically whatever you want. Ground types? Magnet rise. Clefable? Iron head.
Super top tier threat - prepare for it
Agreed. Doublade is definitally one of the best all around pokemon. Its not an amazing attacker, its not *that* good of a pinsir check, and it autoloses to diggerby/Megalop unless it has mad predictions, but it fulfills so many roles that its astonishing. In terms of teamslots to use ratio, its a clear winner. Maybe if pinsir gets banned it wont seem so good, but right now its great.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Alright so Mega Pinsir is (obviously) a top tier threat so I thought I'd go over some ways to defeat it!
Apart from Magneton (who I just included because it does basically the same thing as Magnezone) and Ditto (I mean it's Ditto it's the best revenge killer for it) these are all UU or above. I'm sure there are plenty of checks in lower tiers too (Ryhperior and Regirock for example) but I figured these would be the most splashable mons you want to use without straying into total gimmick/team-specific territory (I generally used the standard OU sets, or at most a slightly adapted version of them, such as going 252/252+ in HP/Def instead of 252/240+ or whatever the case may be).
What this tells us is that in order to check or counter Mega Pinsir you need to have decent physical bulk and resist Flying, or simply have insane physical bulk (looking at you Hippowdon), as well as have a means of KOing it. As you can see, there are a lot of good Pokemon that can accomplish this, and it shouldn't be particularly hard to fit one of them on your team, as all of them are good in other roles apart from checking/countering Mega Pinsir. It is for this reason that while I certainly believe Mega Pinsir is an S-rank threat, I don't believe it is banworthy atm. I realize that some of these lose to what TI mentioned earlier in the thread about Duggy + Pursuit, however many of them just don't :/ (Zapdos, Skarmory, Magnet Rise Klefki, Scarf Magnets not locked into an Electric-type move, and the Metagrosses [it Bullet Punches TTar] to name a few). I'd have to see an example of these Pokemon making a difference. I'm open to changing my mind on this, and I'll be testing it (already built a team and had a couple practice matches, going 2-0 and even beating the aforementioned Duggy+TTar+MPinsir strat, and I haven't even needed to use my own MPinsir at all yet :P), but that's just my opinion as of right now, and I hope people can use this as a resource when teambuilding, as well as in discussions to prevent people from simply saying Mega Pinsir has no checks!
NOTE: Whenever I refer to Mega Pinsir's Feint or show it in calcs it means Return'd Feint (aka 102 BP). All calcs against Mega Pinsir are with their normal BP, unless I say "Return'd" in the calc.
Physically defensive Zapdos is one of the best Mega Pinsir checks. At +2, Feint can't OHKO even with Rocks, and Return'd Volt Switch is a clean OHKO.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
68 SpA Zapdos Return'd Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 306-362 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It also has access to Defog and Roost for utility and reliable recovery.
Ayyyy sweg keys. This isn't the best check as it kinda relies on paralyzing the opp :/ Klefki can take a +2 Feint tho and TWave, OR it can set Reflect to make something else tank the +2 Feint easier. It also sets Spikes, and hazard stacking is actually ridiculously effective in this meta tbh.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 189-222 (59.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Doublade is another of the best checks to Mega Pinsir. It takes +2 Feint like it's nothing, and has powerful priority of its own. It can tank a +2 EQ, and Return'd Shadow Sneak 2HKOs.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 116-137 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 234-276 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Return'd Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 139-165 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (126 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 172-204 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [0 Speed EVs, Brave nature, 0 Speed IVs Doublade vs. 252 Speed EVs, Jolly nature Mega Pinsir]
A more offensive check to Mega Pinsir. Either can take a +2 Feint and KO after one round of pre-Mega Stealth Rock damage with Return'd Bullet Punch (if Choice Band Adamant Metagross and Adamant Mega Metagross respectively).
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 197-232 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Return'd Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 241-285 (88.9 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 174-204 (57.8 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Return'd Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All the Rotom formes except Mow work tbh, but these are the most viable. They can tank +2 Feint or CC and proceed to burn Mega Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp or KO it with Return'd Volt Switch after one round of pre-Mega Stealth Rock damage.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W/Rotom-H: 169-200 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W/Rotom-H: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W/Rotom-H Return'd Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 252-296 (92.9 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
The counter is here o3o. It isn't 2HKOd by +2 Feint (as long as rocks aren't on the field), although +2 CC can 2HKO. It can phaze with Whirlwind (so you should run hazards) and if it takes enough damage from Rocks (1 round of Stealth Rock damage post-Mega or two rounds either Mega or non-Mega) then Brave Bird (or Return'd Drill Peck if you don't want the recoil) can KO it.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-200 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Return'd Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 156-186 (57.5 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.6 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+
For an offensive team, this is a neat duo that takes out Mega Pinsir. Endure Tankchomp makes Mega Pinsir take 7/12 of its HP in recoil, and Endure outprioritizes Feint. Then, LO Weavile with Return'd Feint can come in, outspeed Mega Pinsir and kill it with Feint. If it hasn't boosted yet, Chomp can phaze it with Dragon Tail.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Return'd Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 117-139 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
7/12*100%=58.3%+43.1%=101.4% so even the lowest possible roll kills.
Choice Scarf Magnezone and Magneton (both of whom receive a buff with 102 BP HP Fire I might add) can both revenge kill Mega Pinsir. They 4x resist Feint, so they take it with ease and OHKO with Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch/Return'd HP Fire after one round of pre-Mega Rocks).
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 109-129 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 320-380 (118 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 128-151 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 306-360 (112.9 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ScarfTar is another excellent revenge killer, as it can tank a +2 Feint uninvested and proceed to OHKO it back with Stone Edge.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 227-267 (66.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Stone Edge obviously OHKOs :/
Physically defensive Hippowdon can take one boosted hit and if it carries Stone Edge or Return'd Rock Tomb (the better overall utility option imo, as the only other attack you'd really want is EQ, and that's already 100 BP) it can OHKO in return.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 280-332 (103.3 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lando-T can also check Mega Pinsir from full health. The defensive set has a very good chance to live a +1 Feint (SD + Intim) after Rocks, and it is guaranteed to live without Rocks, while it KOs back with Stone Edge (or Return'd Smack Down, which is a neat and likely superior option).
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 286-337 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 340-404 (125.4 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-T Return'd Smack Down vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 348-412 (128.4 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scarf Ditto obviously revenge kills Mega Pinsir. It outspeed due to Scarf, and I don't even need to calc Feint easily OHKOing Mega Pinsir as you've seen it do a ton to resists--mons weak to Flying don't stand a chance lmao. Probably the best revenge killer, especially if you have Mega Pinsir too, as this weakens their Mega Pinsir check/counter.
Mega Manectric can check Mega Pinsir as long as Rocks aren't up. It can take a +1 (after Swords Dance and Intimidate) Feint, and OHKO back with Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch after one round of pre-Mega Stealth Rock damage).
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 222-261 (79 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 330-390 (121.7 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Standard specially defensive Mega Ampharos can also check Mega Pinsir that lack EQ. It can take a +2 Feint after Stealth Rock and OHKO back with Return'd Volt Switch.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 283-333 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
28 SpA Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 276-326 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Physically defensive Zapdos is one of the best Mega Pinsir checks. At +2, Feint can't OHKO even with Rocks, and Return'd Volt Switch is a clean OHKO.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
68 SpA Zapdos Return'd Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 306-362 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It also has access to Defog and Roost for utility and reliable recovery.
Ayyyy sweg keys. This isn't the best check as it kinda relies on paralyzing the opp :/ Klefki can take a +2 Feint tho and TWave, OR it can set Reflect to make something else tank the +2 Feint easier. It also sets Spikes, and hazard stacking is actually ridiculously effective in this meta tbh.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 189-222 (59.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Doublade is another of the best checks to Mega Pinsir. It takes +2 Feint like it's nothing, and has powerful priority of its own. It can tank a +2 EQ, and Return'd Shadow Sneak 2HKOs.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 116-137 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 234-276 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Return'd Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 139-165 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (126 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 172-204 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [0 Speed EVs, Brave nature, 0 Speed IVs Doublade vs. 252 Speed EVs, Jolly nature Mega Pinsir]
A more offensive check to Mega Pinsir. Either can take a +2 Feint and KO after one round of pre-Mega Stealth Rock damage with Return'd Bullet Punch (if Choice Band Adamant Metagross and Adamant Mega Metagross respectively).
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 197-232 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Return'd Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 241-285 (88.9 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 174-204 (57.8 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Return'd Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All the Rotom formes except Mow work tbh, but these are the most viable. They can tank +2 Feint or CC and proceed to burn Mega Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp or KO it with Return'd Volt Switch after one round of pre-Mega Stealth Rock damage.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W/Rotom-H: 169-200 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W/Rotom-H: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W/Rotom-H Return'd Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 252-296 (92.9 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
The counter is here o3o. It isn't 2HKOd by +2 Feint (as long as rocks aren't on the field), although +2 CC can 2HKO. It can phaze with Whirlwind (so you should run hazards) and if it takes enough damage from Rocks (1 round of Stealth Rock damage post-Mega or two rounds either Mega or non-Mega) then Brave Bird (or Return'd Drill Peck if you don't want the recoil) can KO it.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-200 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Return'd Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 156-186 (57.5 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.6 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For an offensive team, this is a neat duo that takes out Mega Pinsir. Endure Tankchomp makes Mega Pinsir take 7/12 of its HP in recoil, and Endure outprioritizes Feint. Then, LO Weavile with Return'd Feint can come in, outspeed Mega Pinsir and kill it with Feint. If it hasn't boosted yet, Chomp can phaze it with Dragon Tail.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Return'd Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 117-139 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
7/12*100%=58.3%+43.1%=101.4% so even the lowest possible roll kills.
Choice Scarf Magnezone and Magneton (both of whom receive a buff with 102 BP HP Fire I might add) can both revenge kill Mega Pinsir. They 4x resist Feint, so they take it with ease and OHKO with Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch/Return'd HP Fire after one round of pre-Mega Rocks).
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 109-129 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 320-380 (118 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 128-151 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 306-360 (112.9 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ScarfTar is another excellent revenge killer, as it can tank a +2 Feint uninvested and proceed to OHKO it back with Stone Edge.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 227-267 (66.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Stone Edge obviously OHKOs :/
Physically defensive Hippowdon can take one boosted hit and if it carries Stone Edge or Return'd Rock Tomb (the better overall utility option imo, as the only other attack you'd really want is EQ, and that's already 100 BP) it can OHKO in return.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 280-332 (103.3 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lando-T can also check Mega Pinsir from full health. The defensive set has a very good chance to live a +1 Feint (SD + Intim) after Rocks, and it is guaranteed to live without Rocks, while it KOs back with Stone Edge (or Return'd Smack Down, which is a neat and likely superior option).
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 286-337 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 340-404 (125.4 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-T Return'd Smack Down vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 348-412 (128.4 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scarf Ditto obviously revenge kills Mega Pinsir. It outspeed due to Scarf, and I don't even need to calc Feint easily OHKOing Mega Pinsir as you've seen it do a ton to resists--mons weak to Flying don't stand a chance lmao. Probably the best revenge killer, especially if you have Mega Pinsir too, as this weakens their Mega Pinsir check/counter.
Mega Manectric can check Mega Pinsir as long as Rocks aren't up. It can take a +1 (after Swords Dance and Intimidate) Feint, and OHKO back with Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch after one round of pre-Mega Stealth Rock damage).
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 222-261 (79 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 330-390 (121.7 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Standard specially defensive Mega Ampharos can also check Mega Pinsir that lack EQ. It can take a +2 Feint after Stealth Rock and OHKO back with Return'd Volt Switch.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 283-333 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
28 SpA Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 276-326 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Apart from Magneton (who I just included because it does basically the same thing as Magnezone) and Ditto (I mean it's Ditto it's the best revenge killer for it) these are all UU or above. I'm sure there are plenty of checks in lower tiers too (Ryhperior and Regirock for example) but I figured these would be the most splashable mons you want to use without straying into total gimmick/team-specific territory (I generally used the standard OU sets, or at most a slightly adapted version of them, such as going 252/252+ in HP/Def instead of 252/240+ or whatever the case may be).
What this tells us is that in order to check or counter Mega Pinsir you need to have decent physical bulk and resist Flying, or simply have insane physical bulk (looking at you Hippowdon), as well as have a means of KOing it. As you can see, there are a lot of good Pokemon that can accomplish this, and it shouldn't be particularly hard to fit one of them on your team, as all of them are good in other roles apart from checking/countering Mega Pinsir. It is for this reason that while I certainly believe Mega Pinsir is an S-rank threat, I don't believe it is banworthy atm. I realize that some of these lose to what TI mentioned earlier in the thread about Duggy + Pursuit, however many of them just don't :/ (Zapdos, Skarmory, Magnet Rise Klefki, Scarf Magnets not locked into an Electric-type move, and the Metagrosses [it Bullet Punches TTar] to name a few). I'd have to see an example of these Pokemon making a difference. I'm open to changing my mind on this, and I'll be testing it (already built a team and had a couple practice matches, going 2-0 and even beating the aforementioned Duggy+TTar+MPinsir strat, and I haven't even needed to use my own MPinsir at all yet :P), but that's just my opinion as of right now, and I hope people can use this as a resource when teambuilding, as well as in discussions to prevent people from simply saying Mega Pinsir has no checks!
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xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Priority being here, with the ridiculous power it entails, basically makes creativity irrelevant - the only innovation is how to survive insanely powerful priority attacks without getting 6-0'd. Mega Pinsir is one problem, but many of the +1 abusers are ridiculous and completely break non-priority mons. Adaptability Crawdaunt, Choice band Metagross, etc. are all almost impossible to beat without extremely bulky resists, forcing you to mix those with priority spammers just to fight the rest of the meta.
Creativity isn't really possible when the maximum amount of creativity is running the right priority spammers and the right priority sponges and nothing else. This isn't creative or fun at all. I like offensive metas as much as the next guy, but this is next-to unplayable in my experience.
Creativity isn't really possible when the maximum amount of creativity is running the right priority spammers and the right priority sponges and nothing else. This isn't creative or fun at all. I like offensive metas as much as the next guy, but this is next-to unplayable in my experience.
Your post is a huge exaggeration. For example, IT11 has a pretty creative team with minimal abuse of priority and he has done well with it.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, if priority abusers are broken, which is currently only looking like Mega Pinsir, they will be banned.
If that's not your cup of tea, there are hundreds of metagames, so keep your whining out of my thread. Any further comments about changing the mechanics of my OM will be deleted.
To remind you all, we're still not playing a 100% accurate metagame because Marty is going to test some moves in-game. Pursuit for one definitely wrong right now. It boosts when there's no switch and doesn't boost when there's a switch (this is because of how Pursuit is coded; interacts badly with Return'd code).
I'll repeat what I said earlier, if priority abusers are broken, which is currently only looking like Mega Pinsir, they will be banned.
If that's not your cup of tea, there are hundreds of metagames, so keep your whining out of my thread. Any further comments about changing the mechanics of my OM will be deleted.
To remind you all, we're still not playing a 100% accurate metagame because Marty is going to test some moves in-game. Pursuit for one definitely wrong right now. It boosts when there's no switch and doesn't boost when there's a switch (this is because of how Pursuit is coded; interacts badly with Return'd code).
So I started testing with a handful of moves, here are the results so far!
All listed moves were changed to 100 base power.
Acrobatics
Assurance
Avalanche / Revenge
Hex
Ice Ball / Rollout (doubles again for each hit)
Payback
Pursuit
Round
Smelling Salts / Wake-Up Slap
Stored Power (100 power + 20 * boost total)
Weather Ball
Assurance
Avalanche / Revenge
Hex
Ice Ball / Rollout (doubles again for each hit)
Payback
Pursuit
Round
Smelling Salts / Wake-Up Slap
Stored Power (100 power + 20 * boost total)
Weather Ball
Fury Cutter - hits have a limit of 160 power
Triple Kick - 10/20/30 power as normal
Triple Kick - 10/20/30 power as normal
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Thanks Marty!
I've updated the code and added a list of moves that are unaffected to the first post.
I've updated the code and added a list of moves that are unaffected to the first post.
Has anyone mentioned drain punch? Conkeldurr seems it would like a Life Orb with Iron Fist set with fairly reliable recovery
Conkledurr would probably prefer a buffed mach punch
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
More like Klefki, cuz it doesn't die to MPinsir. I honestly don't think Fighting-types are going to be very good at all in this meta. Even if MPins gets the boot (which I hope it doesn't til this is tested a bit more), Talonflame is still going to be really powerful (it also happens to be really fast). Btw,
VOTE RETURN'D FOR OMOTM O3O