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RNG Abuse (Cheating?)
- Thread starter Praedoran
- Start date
no
both ways are just manipulating game code, one is just more direct. Drill and the pick you see.
You aren't actually altering the game's code when you RNG. You're manipulating the fact that computers can't generate random numbers, and following the patterns.
For that matter, I'm fine with people hacking other things in order to RNG, like rebattle codes and 100% catch rates in order to get that Lugia into a Dive Ball. If the Pokemon's capture or breeding is legitimate, anything else goes.
For that matter, I'm fine with people hacking other things in order to RNG, like rebattle codes and 100% catch rates in order to get that Lugia into a Dive Ball. If the Pokemon's capture or breeding is legitimate, anything else goes.
Well, the thing that sparked my interest in this topic was playing around with my save states in a Pokemon Rom. I noticed that with each attack, the outcome had already been decided. I figured that any outstanding computer whiz could take two and two together, piece an RNG tracker together, and gain an immense advantage in knowing the outcome of his moves.
100% catch rate isnt cheating? double standard much?
Yes, it is cheating. But RNGing is not cheating, Imo. If it was cheating, it would require a hacking device such as an AR. But, fast hatch/IV Check/EV Check/100% catch rate is cheating. It doesn't necessarilly make the pokemon cheated for, but it is cheating.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
It seems to me that the RNG of the hosting game is the one which determines the rolls in a battle over Wifi. This means that only the host can RNG game outcomes, which means it could never become widespread because that one player would have a huge advantage on Turn One. In addition, there is no way to advance the frame, so players could really only control the first roll of the dice, and maybe the second if they chose them in advance so they came one after the other.
I would like to point out that using RNG in battle has been discussed before. It'd take a rediculous amount of set up to get one crit. When you RNG you need to manipulate things(like the coin flip app) to get it right. In battle you'd probably need to use certain moves in a certain order, and that would put you at more of a dissadvantage than ever. So using it in battle just isn't practical.
As far as to breed goes. Follow your own ethics. You can decide whether you think it's cheating or not. Some people accept RNGd pokemon, some don't. It's completely up to you. No one standard will fit all the people we have on this site. It's accepted that using a Pokesav/AR to make pokemon is illegal as far as trading goes. It is also accepted by the general public that RNGing is legal. If you have a problem with that, don't trade for RNGd pokemon. I assure you flawless pokemon are attainable without RNGing(see my Milotic and BOZO's redis shiny Gyarados named TRUTH), so you're not really at a disadvantage there. it just takes more time. This reminds me of when I started playing pokemon. I had LG, and my bro had Emerald. When he got to the Battle Frontier, the first thing he did was mass clone Rare Candies and make his pokemon LV 100. I had to do it the old fashioned way and fight people. Was I at a disadvantage in the end? No, because my pokemon ended at lv 100 just as well.
As far as to breed goes. Follow your own ethics. You can decide whether you think it's cheating or not. Some people accept RNGd pokemon, some don't. It's completely up to you. No one standard will fit all the people we have on this site. It's accepted that using a Pokesav/AR to make pokemon is illegal as far as trading goes. It is also accepted by the general public that RNGing is legal. If you have a problem with that, don't trade for RNGd pokemon. I assure you flawless pokemon are attainable without RNGing(see my Milotic and BOZO's redis shiny Gyarados named TRUTH), so you're not really at a disadvantage there. it just takes more time. This reminds me of when I started playing pokemon. I had LG, and my bro had Emerald. When he got to the Battle Frontier, the first thing he did was mass clone Rare Candies and make his pokemon LV 100. I had to do it the old fashioned way and fight people. Was I at a disadvantage in the end? No, because my pokemon ended at lv 100 just as well.
This is possible, very possible in fact in BW, mattj can attest to that. Using non C-Gear seeds are extremely easy to hit and you can easily use those to RNG. You can RNG Abuse the same seed if you have a lot of experience hitting the same seed, know how to hit your delay and can even use the DS Clock with enough experience, although no one really RNG's like that because human error is likely.
If you're viewing Smogon, there's a 90% chance you already own the device that runs RNG Reporter (your computer, unless you go to the public library or school to visit Pokémon websites), so buying additional hardware is pretty much limited to cheating devices. Anyway, I used to simply use RNG Reporter to find the seed and time, memorize coin flips, then abuse by myself without being at my screen; that is, until I discovered that Pikatimer was way more reliable. Plus, when I play Pokémon I'm usually on my computer simultaneously so it doesn't matter. If I'm in a car or an airplane, I EV train.
I'll disagree with you about EV/IV check. It doesn't actually change anything about the game or the data in the game. It only allows you to view hidden stats. No manipulation of code, no cheating.
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
The way I justify RNGing for a Pokemon is this:
It's a time saver that requires little more than a little know-how about how the game's internal mechanics work, and does not manipulate the game directly via a third party device physically attached to the game and system.
You aren't changing the rules of the game like a cheat device does. You are following the rules of the game to their fullest limit.
In theory, you can run into a wild Pokemon that has perfect IVs, the nature you want, the ability you want, the gender you want, and is also shiny. The mathematical odds of that happening by chance are astronomically high (1 in 1,073,741,824 for a perfect 31'd Pokemon, 1 in 25 for nature in Gen 4 without a Synchronizer, and 1 in 8,192 for a shiny, for example). However if you have the patience and the dedication, you can make it happen by pure chance.
What RNGing does is it tells you when that perfect IV'd Pokemon is available. Even knowing this information isn't enough as you still have to go and catch it, and you still have to train it correctly.
The same goes with breeding a perfect IV'd Pokemon. If you have the time and patience, you can do it yourself without RNGing (although the mathematical odds of breeding two perfect IV'd parents and getting a perfect IV offspring are mathematically enormous odds, even assuming a best case scenario).
It should also be pointed out that in many cases (especially involving Legendaries) it is impossible to catch a perfectly perfect IV'd (all 31s) Pokemon that has the nature (and sometimes ability) that you want. It's also troublesome to catch a practically perfectly IV'd (5x 30-31 + 1 throwaway stat) Pokemon with the Hidden Power type and Nature you want. The RNG simply doesn't allow it to happen all the time.
Regarding EV and IV checking, it would not be unreasonable to assume someone over the years could have taken the time and documented all the various stat ranges for all of the Pokemon in the game. Then it would simply be a matter of looking it up (and like any IV checker will tell you, unless you know the EV values, the data will not match). The game also tells us --- flat out --- which Pokemon's stats are the highest by both the Characteristic and the IV checker guy in the Battle Frontiers/Battle Towers. And there's NPCs to tell us when our Pokemon's EVs have been maxed out.
It's a time saver that requires little more than a little know-how about how the game's internal mechanics work, and does not manipulate the game directly via a third party device physically attached to the game and system.
You aren't changing the rules of the game like a cheat device does. You are following the rules of the game to their fullest limit.
In theory, you can run into a wild Pokemon that has perfect IVs, the nature you want, the ability you want, the gender you want, and is also shiny. The mathematical odds of that happening by chance are astronomically high (1 in 1,073,741,824 for a perfect 31'd Pokemon, 1 in 25 for nature in Gen 4 without a Synchronizer, and 1 in 8,192 for a shiny, for example). However if you have the patience and the dedication, you can make it happen by pure chance.
What RNGing does is it tells you when that perfect IV'd Pokemon is available. Even knowing this information isn't enough as you still have to go and catch it, and you still have to train it correctly.
The same goes with breeding a perfect IV'd Pokemon. If you have the time and patience, you can do it yourself without RNGing (although the mathematical odds of breeding two perfect IV'd parents and getting a perfect IV offspring are mathematically enormous odds, even assuming a best case scenario).
It should also be pointed out that in many cases (especially involving Legendaries) it is impossible to catch a perfectly perfect IV'd (all 31s) Pokemon that has the nature (and sometimes ability) that you want. It's also troublesome to catch a practically perfectly IV'd (5x 30-31 + 1 throwaway stat) Pokemon with the Hidden Power type and Nature you want. The RNG simply doesn't allow it to happen all the time.
Regarding EV and IV checking, it would not be unreasonable to assume someone over the years could have taken the time and documented all the various stat ranges for all of the Pokemon in the game. Then it would simply be a matter of looking it up (and like any IV checker will tell you, unless you know the EV values, the data will not match). The game also tells us --- flat out --- which Pokemon's stats are the highest by both the Characteristic and the IV checker guy in the Battle Frontiers/Battle Towers. And there's NPCs to tell us when our Pokemon's EVs have been maxed out.
RNG abuse definitely isn't cheating. It's more of a game exploit, and can in theory be performed without any additional hardware. If RNG abuse is considered cheating, then by extension, EV training is also cheating. In that case, we should all just capture random Pokemon with random natures and random EVs.
And to a further extent so is soft resetting and breeding and even trading and then evolving your pokemon. They are game mechanics used to improve your pokemon competitively.
'RNG abuse' is not a naming convention I like. I would prefer it if people referred to it as RNG manipulation. The use of knowledge to both speed up breeding/capturing Pokemon and getting the best IVs is certainly not abuse.
Games are put out there, and people take them as they are presented. They play the games, they complete them, and shelve them when they are done. For some people, the way games are made are fascinating, and understanding how a particular routine or AI behaviour or programming part or whatever gives rise to people who will explore games after they are released. I suppose those people can be referred to as hackers.
Now, by hacking the games, the knowledge of how the game's RNGs have been reverse-generated and understood, and now it is almost common knowledge, at least on the Smogon forums, and is also widely used on other forums for breeding/capturing purposes, to get the best IVs legitimately. The word legitimately in this case should be more accurately defined as 'using the way the game generates a Pokemon to manipulate the RNG into producing the best IVs possible'. No outside programs used to influence the RNG should be used, although it is reasonable to use external programs like RNG Reporter to find the seeds and other information that will generate the Pokemon you desire.
This use of external methods to produce Pokemon that people want for competitive Pokemon battling should actively be encouraged. The game generates Pokemon normally in a certain way. Using the way the game is designed to generate the Pokemon you want is not only an intelligent thing to do, it removes a lot of the problems you get from hacking, or using external sources to modify the game to give you those Pokemon. With RNG manipulation, you are not changing the game in any way, you are just influencing the outcome to one that you desire. Knowing how the game works is not a bad thing, and I'm surprised at the general feeling that is still out there that this method of generating Pokemon is a bad thing.
It is very simple to think about, really. RNG manipulation is a huge time saver, which is its main appeal, there is a lot to learn sure, but once you understand how it works you can easily breed a flawless Pokemon from scratch in an hour or less. Not only is this a huge time saver, but it gets you to think about how the game is programmed, to a limited extent. Using how the game works is not cheating, nor is it abuse. It's just how it was programmed. Why would you prefer to be ignorant about something, when you can learn the truth?
Games are put out there, and people take them as they are presented. They play the games, they complete them, and shelve them when they are done. For some people, the way games are made are fascinating, and understanding how a particular routine or AI behaviour or programming part or whatever gives rise to people who will explore games after they are released. I suppose those people can be referred to as hackers.
Now, by hacking the games, the knowledge of how the game's RNGs have been reverse-generated and understood, and now it is almost common knowledge, at least on the Smogon forums, and is also widely used on other forums for breeding/capturing purposes, to get the best IVs legitimately. The word legitimately in this case should be more accurately defined as 'using the way the game generates a Pokemon to manipulate the RNG into producing the best IVs possible'. No outside programs used to influence the RNG should be used, although it is reasonable to use external programs like RNG Reporter to find the seeds and other information that will generate the Pokemon you desire.
This use of external methods to produce Pokemon that people want for competitive Pokemon battling should actively be encouraged. The game generates Pokemon normally in a certain way. Using the way the game is designed to generate the Pokemon you want is not only an intelligent thing to do, it removes a lot of the problems you get from hacking, or using external sources to modify the game to give you those Pokemon. With RNG manipulation, you are not changing the game in any way, you are just influencing the outcome to one that you desire. Knowing how the game works is not a bad thing, and I'm surprised at the general feeling that is still out there that this method of generating Pokemon is a bad thing.
It is very simple to think about, really. RNG manipulation is a huge time saver, which is its main appeal, there is a lot to learn sure, but once you understand how it works you can easily breed a flawless Pokemon from scratch in an hour or less. Not only is this a huge time saver, but it gets you to think about how the game is programmed, to a limited extent. Using how the game works is not cheating, nor is it abuse. It's just how it was programmed. Why would you prefer to be ignorant about something, when you can learn the truth?
This is where the justification comes into play in my mind. When I first started playing competitively, I trained for three months straight utilizing Emerald, Ruby, Sapphire, and Colosseum (plus Box :P). Those hours were mostly spent crunching numbers on IVs for legendary characters. This process was exasperating and tiring. When I loss that tournament I skipped the next year's tournament because I simply did not want to spend all that time doing such repetitive and boring actions. Resetting, master ball, checking stats, wondering if this was going to be my best shot or should I continue to plug away, wash, repeat.
When I learned about RNG and got into the dynamics of how the computer worked, I was so relieved to know that I could focus on better aspects then worrying about wasting dozens and dozens, and DOZENS of hours just soft resetting over and over again. I had cut my time of training from worry about superfluous details (ala whether my characters were up to snuff) and allowed me to focus on what I feel is the most important aspect of battling, the type match ups, the move pools, the abilities, the predictions, the metagame, the hold items, etc.
Toothache really summarizes my feelings on it all.
Anyway, going back to the original topic of this thread (RNG manipulation in battle). We can all agree that one side knowing the luck-based outcome of each move, while the other doesn't, is unfair (and therefore in many people's eyes cheating). But what if both sides had access to this tool?
I'm going to assume that the RNG is the same for both players (and therefore uses the same seed), and using a move with an added effect (e.g. Flamethrower) uses up an extra RNG call. If these assumptions are true, then using such a move before the opponent attacks will invalidate their RNG calculations. For example, if the opponent goes for a Hypnosis, they'll want the RNG's result to be less than 60/100. However, if your Pokémon is faster, it will use this RNG result to attempt a Burn from Flamethrower, possibly leaving the opponent with a bad RNG roll and making them miss. Your opponent could predict this, and use a move with 100% accuracy; however, if they overpredict, they could end up missing a valuable opportunity.
'Hax items' like Quick Claw and Brightpowder would give a similar effect; as they don't give an activation message when they come in (unlike, say, Balloon in 5th gen), the opponent won't know what state the RNG is in by the time they attack.
Knowledge of the battle RNG would drastically change the way the game is played, but I believe it wouldn't make it any less competitive. In fact, it would be more competitive; prediction and bluffing would become more influential than the things which are currently important like team matchups and, well, luck. I'd be all for setting up such a metagame in a simulator; the main difficulty would be modifying it to get the next few RNG rolls and displaying the results in a suitable format.
I'm going to assume that the RNG is the same for both players (and therefore uses the same seed), and using a move with an added effect (e.g. Flamethrower) uses up an extra RNG call. If these assumptions are true, then using such a move before the opponent attacks will invalidate their RNG calculations. For example, if the opponent goes for a Hypnosis, they'll want the RNG's result to be less than 60/100. However, if your Pokémon is faster, it will use this RNG result to attempt a Burn from Flamethrower, possibly leaving the opponent with a bad RNG roll and making them miss. Your opponent could predict this, and use a move with 100% accuracy; however, if they overpredict, they could end up missing a valuable opportunity.
'Hax items' like Quick Claw and Brightpowder would give a similar effect; as they don't give an activation message when they come in (unlike, say, Balloon in 5th gen), the opponent won't know what state the RNG is in by the time they attack.
Knowledge of the battle RNG would drastically change the way the game is played, but I believe it wouldn't make it any less competitive. In fact, it would be more competitive; prediction and bluffing would become more influential than the things which are currently important like team matchups and, well, luck. I'd be all for setting up such a metagame in a simulator; the main difficulty would be modifying it to get the next few RNG rolls and displaying the results in a suitable format.
Thanks for the reply Wichu. I would love to see a style of battling where the results of an attack were known before taking them. We can already slightly predict damage ranges, what if we took that a step further? Then it's more like a card match, than say a dice game. Some people enjoy cards, others enjoy dice, I suppose it could be a fun little style of play that could catch on.
Thanks for the replies to everyone else as well. Defining the term "Cheating" is a difficult thing to do. We could go by "Expressly Forbidden", but what if we return to the real reason such a rule was made in the first place: Fairness? We accept RNG manipulation because we all have access to it and can do it really.
Think about if RNG Reporters were never released to you though. Where the original creators greedily hogged the secret in order to get an advantage over their competition. In this case, we would probably think of them as cheaters. As their knowledge creates an unfair advantage.
Now apply this to your casual friends. No where on the box of Pokemon or in its manual, describes the process of RNG manipulation. Now, one of said friends challenges you to a match and you bring out a Perfect IV'd Darkrai with a preferred Nature compared his "noob" pokes. Unfair? Cheating? Depends on who you ask.
We all know that one person that's not against cheating -at all- as well. His philosophy is "As long as you don't get caught". That's his justification, because he argues that he's gambling on his ability to cheat against the ability to catch him.
So this thread was more of a way for you to look at your self and what kind of person you are. Do you bring a sword to a knife fight? Do you bring a gun to the knife fight? Would you cast away your sword and fight fairly, even though your sword still classifies as a "Knife" in the rules?
Thanks for the replies to everyone else as well. Defining the term "Cheating" is a difficult thing to do. We could go by "Expressly Forbidden", but what if we return to the real reason such a rule was made in the first place: Fairness? We accept RNG manipulation because we all have access to it and can do it really.
Think about if RNG Reporters were never released to you though. Where the original creators greedily hogged the secret in order to get an advantage over their competition. In this case, we would probably think of them as cheaters. As their knowledge creates an unfair advantage.
Now apply this to your casual friends. No where on the box of Pokemon or in its manual, describes the process of RNG manipulation. Now, one of said friends challenges you to a match and you bring out a Perfect IV'd Darkrai with a preferred Nature compared his "noob" pokes. Unfair? Cheating? Depends on who you ask.
We all know that one person that's not against cheating -at all- as well. His philosophy is "As long as you don't get caught". That's his justification, because he argues that he's gambling on his ability to cheat against the ability to catch him.
So this thread was more of a way for you to look at your self and what kind of person you are. Do you bring a sword to a knife fight? Do you bring a gun to the knife fight? Would you cast away your sword and fight fairly, even though your sword still classifies as a "Knife" in the rules?
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Honestly if they (meaning Game Freak and Nintendo) wanted to end RNG manipulation, all they would have to do is redesign their random number generator to make it non-predictable. If I recall, Ruby and Sapphire had a non-predictable RNG; Emerald on the other hand is predictable.
mattj
blatant Nintendo fanboy
As for inbattle RNG. Trust me. It's way to complicated for you to control. In 4th gen it relies on the attacks your opponent chooses and what order they attack in too, so that's out of your hands. In gen 5 it constantly advances at a pretty steady rate, but again, it relies on when your opponent gets done with their turn, so it's out of your hands as well.
That being said, as an avid RNGer, I don't see RNG abuse as being any different than whipping stuff up with AR, or pokesav, other than that this is guaranteed to pass VGC hack checks. It's just a game bros. Chill.
That being said, as an avid RNGer, I don't see RNG abuse as being any different than whipping stuff up with AR, or pokesav, other than that this is guaranteed to pass VGC hack checks. It's just a game bros. Chill.
I learned to RNG Breed in Platinum without using an Action Replay. This is arguably the most tedious RNG process, yet I managed to do it successfully many times. In fact, the majority of Pokemon I RNGed were done without the use of an AR. True RNG Manipulation is not 'cheating' as long as no qualities of the actual Pokemon are changed in the process. This is why some people have a disposition against 100% capture codes, which change the actual Catch Rate of the Pokemon, or the Rebattle Legendary code, which literally recreates a Pokemon that was already gone.
However, Rebattle Codes are allowed as 'legal hacks' (a term I find very strange). This is because many legendaries have multiple sets, which means more than one should be caught (Hasty, Quiet, Mild Dialga). True RNG Manipulation is by no means cheating. It is only using what the game gives you, nothing else. Anything other than that is up to the opinion of each person.
However, Rebattle Codes are allowed as 'legal hacks' (a term I find very strange). This is because many legendaries have multiple sets, which means more than one should be caught (Hasty, Quiet, Mild Dialga). True RNG Manipulation is by no means cheating. It is only using what the game gives you, nothing else. Anything other than that is up to the opinion of each person.
yeah
Okay this is officially the stupidest thing you have said. So the noobs who try to catch pokemon who only appear at a certain time of the day are cheating too?