RotoFable, the UU SkarmBliss

[Cynthia]

Kabutops is another Poke that beats RotoFable, it's a generally weak combo against rain teams in general(though Clefable can attempt Twave Sboiled stall on special attackers).

Something like a SubPunching Cacturne works well too.

Really in general this combination isn't that hard to beat, especially on the physical side. If your STAB move can hit Rotom super effective or neutral than Rotom goes down pretty easily and you will also take down Clefable. Non-STAB Ghost or Dark moves can also take down Rotom, though these are somewhat rare.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I don't know very much about Rotom, but I would have thought that Weezing would have been more ideally suited to this combination than Rotom (that is, assuming he hasn't been bumped up since I started writing this...)

He's got the same ability, less weaknesses, also has Will-o-Wisp as well as Toxic, pseudo-recovery in Pain Split, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower (albeit without STAB), Explosion and tonnes more Defence.

I hope this wasn't fundamentally unsound. If it was, apologies.

 

[Objection]

I don't know very much about Rotom, but I would have thought that Weezing would have been more ideally suited to this combination than Rotom (that is, assuming he hasn't been bumped up since I started writing this...)

He's got the same ability, less weaknesses, also has Will-o-Wisp as well as Toxic, pseudo-recovery in Pain Split, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower (albeit without STAB), Explosion and tonnes more Defence.

I hope this wasn't fundamentally unsound. If it was, apologies.

The difference between Weezing and Rotom with respect to Clefable is that Weezing has one weakness that Clefable can also be hit by, whereas Rotom has two weaknesses, one of which isn't common outside of STAB (dark), and Clefable is immune to the other (ghost).

 

[outofdashdwz]

The difference between Weezing and Rotom with respect to Clefable is that Weezing has one weakness that Clefable can also be hit by, whereas Rotom has two weaknesses, one of which isn't common outside of STAB (dark), and Clefable is immune to the other (ghost).

Um... I'm not sure why a move being uncommon outside of STAB applies when there are plenty of Dark typed sweepers in UU, but I'll go along with it. Weezing has one weakness, period, and Psychic attacks are largely special, barring Psycho Cut from Absol and the occasional random Zen Headbutt. The only nonSTAB Psychic attacks used in UU are Psychic Gorebyss (it'd rather Surf), Psychic Venomoth, Extrasensory Ninetales (rare), HP [Psychics], and the previously mentioned Psycho Cut and Zen Headbutt. By your logic, Weezing would make a better combination with Clefable because Weezing has one weakness, and it's not common outside of STAB (Psychic), and Clefable obviously takes most Psychic attacks better than Dark ones with 252/252 Calm, because most Psychic attacks are special. I personally think Weezing and Clefable are a lot harder to get rid of than Rotom and Clefable. That said, this thread isn't about Weezing, so I'll leave it at that.

Rotom and Clefable are by no means unstoppable, even beyond the list of threats you posted. Using something like Rotom to wall things that tear your team apart otherwise is in itself not too smart. A misprediction with Pursuit vs Night Slash leaves you either dead or almost dead, and coming back in to Rest off your damage often means losing another 12.5%. Heavy emphasis in defense leaves you no speed, meaning common threats who are slower than your 91 base will outspeed and proceed to finish you (Read: Absol, Banette, Glaceon, Hitmon___, the list goes on).

As a sidenote to Glaceon, why wouldn't it be able to switch in? For Rotom, you're most likely going to be met with WoW, Shadow Ball, or Thunderbolt. Luring a WoW isn't that hard, and if worst comes worst, defensive Rotom's tbolt can never 2HKO 0/0 Glaceon (38.38% - 45.39%). Given the ubiquity SR, I do admit Glaceon's only coming in on WoW. On Clefable though, Glaceon can come in on pretty much anything not named Flamethrower. If you're using Clefable to wall, I doubt you're going to run Fire Blast. Glaceon also usually outspeeds both of them as well.

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a large difference between SkarmBliss and RotoFable, and they are hardly comparable. Back when SkarmBliss was a very good walling combination, every attack that your opponent used, you could switch into it with one of them. With RotoFable, however, neither can switch into many powerful assaults, such as Glaceon's Ice Beam. They are a fairly decent walling combination, but what I have a problem with is the comparison to SkarmBliss.

 

[Objection]

I am speaking from experience. I've never seen Weezing and Clefable used as a walling combo but I have several times seen Rotom and Clefable as a walling combo. Theoretically, you could be right, but until I have experienced it for myself, I cannot say for certain.

 

[seds]

Weezing and clefable are used together, but only with other tanks, like steelix, blastoise, and venusaur.

Usually it is used as one of 4 or 5 walls.



Rotom is annoying, it doesn't look bulky but it's typing and support options make it formidable. I have seen restalk versions but I don't have much trouble with them. IMO you need wish clefable to truly defeat many foes. I have lost to this combo a couple of times, but some people seem to think that clefable is invincible to anything not fighting type.

Huntail might be able to do the same as kabutops, but I don't have any calcs. EDIT: wow kabutops has 115 attack vs huntail's 104. never mind then.

All the water types listed can only kill both if
a:clefable runs to rotom on rain dance (or crunch from crawdaunt/sharpedo)
b:clefable does something stupid like protect while they rain dance
c: clefable switches into omastar or other water type and gets destroyed by hydro pump.

TBH I use water types to get past the two. It is fun to switch into clefable with crawdaunt as they cosmic power or calm mind, then demolish it with superpower. I sometimes use carnivine but it is a lesser option. Only frail sweeper rotoms can be KOd in one power whip (without choice band) and clefable is immune to sleep powder + faster. Only siesmic toss varients or those lacking toxic orb can be defeated.

 

[Peanut-Lover]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade or good feeling, but isn't this rather irrelevant, if Rotom-A (all appliances) are banned from UU?

2 of them already made OU, without any changes put into place. There has been talk of whether species clause will be implemented - if it is, then all Rotom appliances for tier sake will be counted as one pokemon.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

This is using the original Rotom, the 50/50/77/95/77/91 one that doesn't have any special moves and is probably going to end up UU.

 

[ViVi]

There's only one slight problem: Absol may switch in on a Will-o-Wisp if the Rotom trainer predicts its entry.

Theory-moning at its best..

 

[Farewell]

I like Mantine + Steelix better.

Steelix is Immune to Thunder, resists Stone Edge 4x, and has a Fire, Fighting, Ground, and Water weakness.

Mantine is Immune to 1/2 of those and resistant to the other 1/2. Mantine also has Haze to handle Set-uppers, as well as STAB Surf to handle Ground and Fire types that threaten Steelix.


Steelix and Mantine are both Immune to Toxic Spikes, while Steelix takes a measily 3.25% from Stealth Rocks, while Mantine is Immune to Spikes. Pretty fair switch-in.

Mantine can heal Stealth Rocks damage if it switches into a Water Attack. Plus, besides Kabutops, Mantine handles common Swiftswimmers, as well as Chlorophyllers (since it isn't weak to Grass Attacks, resists Fire, and threatens Grass types with Ice Beam).

 

[mien]

I like Mantine + Steelix better.

Steelix is Immune to Thunder, resists Stone Edge 4x, and has a Fire, Fighting, Ground, and Water weakness.

Mantine is Immune to 1/2 of those and resistant to the other 1/2. Mantine also has Haze to handle Set-uppers, as well as STAB Surf to handle Ground and Fire types that threaten Steelix.


Steelix and Mantine are both Immune to Toxic Spikes, while Steelix takes a measily 3.25% from Stealth Rocks, while Mantine is Immune to Spikes. Pretty fair switch-in.

Mantine can heal Stealth Rocks damage if it switches into a Water Attack. Plus, besides Kabutops, Mantine handles common Swiftswimmers, as well as Chlorophyllers (since it isn't weak to Grass Attacks, resists Fire, and threatens Grass types with Ice Beam).

Problem is that Fighting/Rock combo is very popular in UU making this walling combo rather flawed.
Besides Mantine physicall defenses are simply to low to take close combats and unlike rotom it didn't got Speed, Reflect or WoW to improve it somewhat.

There's only one slight problem: Absol may switch in on a Will-o-Wisp if the Rotom trainer predicts its entry

Theory-moning at its best.

Everybody who plays UU knows that whenever you switch into a non-trick version of Rotom they WILL use WoW always, Rotom is the reason why Ninetales still remains popular even after hypnosys drop

@outofdash Weezing is simply too slow to use WoW effectivly like rotom does. Rotom can use WoW before his opponent attacks making it's physicall defenses comparable to Weezing.
Aside from that Weezing attacking power is far too low, rotom can effectivly hit a lot of things in UU with STAB thunderbolt and high SpAtt while Weezing doesn't even have a usefull stab

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

The problem is Rotom's ability to switch in. Little to no sweepers that pose a threat to Rotom can switch into its Will O Wisp, but in turn, Rotom cannot switch into their assaults. Absol, Leafeon, and Banette are examples of this. Pokemon like Aggron and Armaldo, while they cannot kill Rotom without being burned first, will force an incoming Rotom to Rest off the damage from their attacks or be KOed the next time it switches in. Finally, Rest/Talk versions of Muk and Kangaskhan will definitely give Rotom problems, as they both have high Special Defense and will be rid of Will O Wisps. Needless to say, Clefable doesn't do that well against these Pokemon, either, especially if it's built to withstand special-based assaults.

As others have mentioned, there is Weezing/Clefable. While Weezing has worse type coverage, special attack, and speed, its has much better defense. It can't win against all physical attackers, including the Absol and Aggron that Rotom has problems with, but it does stop a lot of them that Rotom cannot, such as Cacturne and the Life Orb Hitmons.

Of course, Rotom does have niches (blocking Rapid Spin, Trick, versatility, screens, etc.) that would make it better than Weezing in some cases, but I feel that Weezing/Clefable is more fitted to be the "SkarmBliss" of UU.

Also of note is Steelix/Bulky Water(Mantine, Lanturn, Blastoise) Clefable/Weezing (possibly Rotom, though I haven't seen it) has great synergy and is near impenetrable.

 

[Alice]

Certainly not Glaceon knowing how he easily it is to predict that guy​

Glaceon used Fake Tears!
Lapras gets owned!!!


yeah, how predictable is that...

 

[cim]

It doesn't matter that Glaceon has one set lol, it can 2HKO anything in UU if it predicts right, basically.

 

[guoguo]

@outofdash Weezing is simply too slow to use WoW effectivly like rotom does. Rotom can use WoW before his opponent attacks making it's physicall defenses comparable to Weezing.
Aside from that Weezing attacking power is far too low, rotom can effectively hit a lot of things in UU with STAB thunderbolt and high SpAtt while Weezing doesn't even have a useful stab

Problem is, Rotom isn't naturally defensive the way Weezing is. 50/77 in HP and Def respectively does not make a good wall. Hence, it needs EV investment in HP and Defense in order to wall effectively. And if you're putting EVs into speed to outspeed and WoW many of the UU sweepers, then you lose the extra bulk and possibly the ability to switch into those sweepers. The same goes for its high Sp. Attack. And if you do decide to add EVs to speed, you might as well invest the rest in Sp. Atk. The second problem with using WoW is that you either have to choose between Shadow Ball and Tbolt, which many pokemon are immune to, or your Rotom would be left without recovery. And besides, Weezing's base Sp. Attack stat is only ten below Rotom. Sure, it lacks a reliable stab move, but being able to kill things quickly was never a part of a wall's job description.

Rotom can use WoW before his opponent attacks making it's physicall defenses comparable to Weezing.

The good thing about Weezing is that Weezing's physical defenses are already comparable to Weezing. It has no need for speed investments to outspeed and burn stuff. And after it does manage to burn something, Weezing will have physical defenses comparable to Lugia.