All 3 teams are running on the same basic premise: let Pilo be your Electric counter so you can get a little more adventurous with the Lax set. The rest of each team then revolves around Spikes support, in part because teams were also hamstrung by having to use Skarmory, which is associated with stallier builds.
Eeveeto's team has a couple of big issues. It wants to abuse Spikes real bad, but has no way to keep them against a Starmie. Toxic > Sludge Bomb may be better on Qwilfish so you don't run out of PP trying to poison the bugger. Without Spikes, most of the team can't generate any offense, which is particularly bad when you're running Egg - he's a transient fellow, and with a team that moves this slow, he tends to just die or be dead weight. The only thing capable of offense outside of Spikes is the Drumlax, but without Pursuit support it's hard to see how it doesn't just get hardwalled by a Jhost. Simply put, it's hard to see this team working on a consistent basis, at least not at the highest level of play. Spikes-abusing teammates without a good way to keep Spikes on Starmie, and a weird Drumlax set left out on an island. They're two concepts that just don't have enough support and don't seem to mesh very well together.
Zokuru's team I think is more solid. It leans harder into the Spikes angle, using Toxic Lax (which has more natural synergy with Spikes than a lone Drumlax) and a spinblocker. One complaint is that this team is just a modified standard team: consider the team with Raikou / Skarmory / Cloyster / Misdreavus / Miltank / Snorlax. Put Zapdos > Raikou and Piloswine > Miltank and you get Zokuru's team. I know hands were tied with Pilo, but Miltank is the standard way to make your Cloy last longer by allowing you to cleanse its Poison, so replacing it so that you can run Zapdos > Raikou is dubious and probably makes the team worse. However, I will say Zokuru has good ideas to mitigate the downsides of this substitution, including the use of HP Elec Cloy to try to nab the surprise kill and ST Misdreavus to help it tank more Starmie Surfs now that Cloyster can't nail it with Toxic to put it on a clock. Apart from that complication, there's my personal distaste with Toxic Lax arising from the fact that teams that use it (including this one) seem to lean on it pretty hard, which renders them shut down by off-beat but not-impossible things like Rest Tyranitar or (as is used in this team) Rest Misdreavus.
Century Express's Spikes concept is solid, too. Rather than a spinblocker, they use Umbreon to Pursuit the problems away. It can chip at Cloysters and eat up all of Starmie's Recover PP (Umbreon vs. Starmie is actually a really complicated matchup: At first glance, Umbreon traps it; on second glance, Starmie doesn't have to switch out, it can just PP stall Umb; on third glance Umb can waste a lot of PP and is perfectly happy with wasting Recover PP or perhaps even enough Rapid Spin PP that Spikes is left with more remaining PP). HP Fire Forry covers opposing Forretress. I've toyed with this setup myself for the Spikes game, but my distaste for slow burns led me to look elsewhere (it's basically a setup that explicitly looks to grind out a win over the course of 300+ turns; at least there's also Drumlax on this team to maybe end the game in a more timely manner). Plus, there's one fellow that it absolutely cannot handle: Rapid Spin Tentacruel. Admittedly, it's quite nonstandard, but it's less of a non-factor than you might think, and if you see one, your slow burn goes right out the window. In addition, I'll disclose that I find Umbreon's "support" (as opposed to "trapping") sets dubious. One reason I feel that way is on display with this team: you can't reliably Pursuit Misdreavus, as you don't do enough damage and it just kills with Ptrap. So the LK Drumlax waiting in the wings as the alternative win condition (as opposed to "win the spikes war and wait until you can infinitely switch and your opponent can't") is liable to be walled by a Jhost even with the "Pursuit" box checked off.
Overall, my vote goes to Century Express. Eeveeto's team seems a little too flawed. Zokuru's team is a little too close to "The" standard GSC team (not that CE's is a revolutionary concept, but it's certainly a more uncommonly seen idea). CE's setup also requires more specific pieces to shut down: Both Tentacruel with Rapid Spin and a Ghost-type with Rest or Perish Trap. Zokuru's team, on the other hand, withers and dies against a lone Rest Tyranitar.
For fun, I might personally have gone with a setup like this:
I normally use Nidoking > Pilo here, but Piloswine is much more reliable against Electrics, covers my butt against Gengar a little better too, and still has some of that mixed attacker flair (though it needs to try to freeze Skarm if it wants to beat it by itself; that or run Blizzard, but that's probably ill-advised as it's the easiest PP stall Skarmory has ever had to face. I mean what's Pilo Blizzard against Snorlax Fire Blasts or even Tentacruel Hydro Pumps?). Toxic on Pilo helps me nail Cloysters trying to switch into it, all in an attempt to have my own Cloyster last the longest.
Skarm is just good Snorlax insurance. It isn't complicated, doesn't really contribute to team synergy, it just keeps things from getting out of hand against public enemy #1. And that's good enough. It also covers Egg and Marowak which is quite a big deal.
Cloyster lays Spikes and spins them. Its only support is Ttar, so Spikes are far from guaranteed, but with Ghost removal, Rapid Spin, Toxic on both this and Pilo to wear away at opposing Cloyster, and STAB Surf & Ttar Flamethrower + Pursuit to wear away at Forry, plus Cloyster's own Spikes in the event they don't even have a Spinner, my aim is not to keep Spikes per se but rather to at least tie the spikes war (i.e., we both either have spikes or don't, no one-sided affairs where my opponent has all the fun). That said, Explosion is a serious option as otherwise Snorlax loves to come in and set up on this, as does Vaporeon. Not much point playing for the long-term Spikes game when one of those two is getting beefy in the here-and-now. Plus, Explosion can trade with Suicune or Vap or Umbreon if the opponent has it; they may be more than happy to throw them in Cloyster's face to avoid losing their Zapdos to an errant Explosion, particularly if it's the early game and I haven't revealed most of this team. As it turns out, this team really loves not having to deal with Vap / Cune / Umb, as having them around makes the lives of Ttar and Piloswine much more difficult. Full disclosure though: Suicune is a dangerous click, as it outspeeds everything but Zapdos on this team, and survives Explosion relatively handily - it's guaranteed to have enough HP after Leftovers to switch into Spikes once if it eats Explosion at full health.
LK Curselax can be super dangerous for teams with only 1 Normal resist, and if they have 2, I can use Pursuit to try to keep Spikes so Zapper has an easier time killing Snorlax, or I can use Pursuit to try to take out that other Normal resist, or I could try to use Pilo's mixed attacking prowess & freeze chance to create opportunities (if it freezes Skarm while a Ttar is LK'd, or freezes a Miltank while Skarm sleeps, LK Curselax can go to town). LK Curselax also functions as emergency defense, particularly against Fire laxen. AA Vap could also be a problem if Zapper somehow leaves this mortal coil, so LK Lax can at least make its life complicated in that scenario. If LK is used defensively, however, I admit there's a lot lost in terms of my ability to break through with Lax.
Zapper runs HP Water to mitigate a slight weakness to Rhydon; with Skarm + Ttar, being able to hit Egg is less important anyway. Apart from that, it covers key threats like Vaporeon and Machamp and just functions as good ol' sleep talking / status absorbing / thunder spamming Zapdos, functioning as defensive glue while also potentially creating opportunities with Thunder para or even the errant Thunder crit.
Mixed Ttar is a great way to get the most out of Pursuit; one of its biggest uses is getting Jhosts out of Snorlax's way, but it also pressures Forretress, Miltank, Skarmory, Exeggutor, and even low-health Snorlax. Hell, if I'm in a hole, I can even play for long sleeps against LK'd Rhydon or Steelix, or play to Pursuit Cloysters and Starmies. Ttar is the keystone to this team; without his potential to create opportunities against a variety of foes, everything else just sort of falls flat. It does mean I have to play him carefully to avoid getting Toxic'd, however, which is a pain.
Jorgen I agree with most of your statements, but I wanna discuss my Rest Ttar issues. Sure it won't die any time soon but it gets forced to Rest due to Toxic on both Misdreavus and Snorlax, it takes a lot on Spikes as the game longs and it can't really hurt the team that much, with Rest you don't run Crunch + Pursuit so you gonna have trouble trapping ST Misdreavus, Piloswine can come pretty well and Zapdos can come on a Rest and click Thunder as it does a lot to force Roar Tyranitar out ( Even if I think Pilo forces it out pretty well too if didn't setup too much Curses ). I think it will eventually runs out of Rest / Curse before I lose. And, it may look a bit tricky to force out but it can't really come for free on anything as it will be forced to Rest and then, forced out as explain'd.
I may miss something tho, I'd be glad if you could tell me where my reasonning fails.
Agreeing with Jorgen and his reasoning as to what team to prefer. Century Express seems like the most solid one. While i still quite like Zokurus i feel its a bit too passive at times. Two rather good teams nontheless. EEveetos team is using some rare mons but the use of Piloswine+Raikou kinda irks me a bit because Pilo fulfills almost all of the same roles as Raikou and therefore Raikou couldve been evaded letting one extert more pressure with something else (like a Ttar or Zapdos).
Jorgen: I actually used the team u posted in several tournaments with some small changes. My version had Miltank over TTar and none-LK Lax. I think I had a version with Starmie over Cloyster as well. Pretty good but prone to getting lucked by opposing Dpunch-Ttars sadly and Machamp if i ended up using the Cloyster version.
With 9 votes, Century Express wins Week 2 and is inducted into our Hall of Fame. Our next core is for ADV OU, and is a real teambuilding challenge.
Blissey tends to lure in Pokemon like Metagross and Tyranitar, whom she can put to sleep with Sing to make trapping easier for Dugtrio. Given that these two are support Pokemon which should fit a team and not have a team fit around them, will we be seeing more personalised teams or teams that are weakened by this constraint? Tune in to find out (credit to CZ. for this core).
This is my first attempt that I might come back to edit, but I like how it turned out.
Building and thought process:
I think that everyone's first approach to this core will be to look at a very defensive TSS team, which I did not want to do. Starting from that, I thought back to a conversation Eden and myself had a while ago about Sing Bliss working well on teams that usually like Snorlax, so I started building around that premise. This isn't exactly what a Snorlax > Bliss team would look potentially look like, but then again, I'm not using Snorlax.
The basic premise is the ability to abuse a sleeping Metacross/Skarmory to help Celebi or Cune build up a Calm Mind sweep, with strong support mons. Skarm is quite often the Check used against Celebi, so if Skarm is asleep you can easily abuse that and get +2. One the other hand, one of Suicune's woes is Meta using explosion (having that possibility is scary enough to most players). So, I decided to abuse the core given to overcome that issue.
Comments on sets:
• Tyranitar: Special + BB. I use this set in the lead position as it helps force out Skarmory early. Replacing Ice Beam for Crunch or using CB is a possible route you could also take, I suggest trying all three versions out.
• Suicune: Defensive CM. I would have loved to use a more offensive Suicune here, but the rock weakness would have been way too apparent. Suicune is not the best Rock resist, but with the combination of Dugtrio and Bliss to bait them in, it should be enough. Crocune is also an option.
• Celebi: Offensive CM. This set can clean games very well once Bliss and Skarm are weakened or gone completely.
• Dugtrio: CB. Standard set. EVs allow it to live non-modest IB from Bliss 80% of the time...every time.
• Blissey: Duel Status. I decided on a duel status to help with the fast mons Matchup, getting a few Paras also never hurts when trying to set up
some Calm Minds.
• Gengar: Taunt 2atk. A defensive Gengar set that works as a nice glue to help vs Snorlax and other potential threats this team otherwise struggles with.
Pokemon to watch out for:
Aero: The team has the ability to play around it, but difficult nonetheless.
Gengar with Taunt: Is Bliss is chipped, this mon can be a pain. This set is the main reason for the Crunch > IB change on Ttar.
Offensive Snorlax: If they have Shadow Ball and/or Focus Punch and you call wrong, this mon can open up some holes.
Gyarados: Keep Gengar incredible healthy... Tbolt Ttar...?
Salamence: Same idea as Gyara, but doesn't find it as easy to set up outside Duggy EQ. CB is a threat though. CB isn't as common as it once was, but you will have to predict and outplay to beat it.
Dugtrio: Ada is quite annoying, so you might want to change the Duggy EVs or the Ttar EVs to assist with this. Jolly less annoying.
As a team, Forre/Spikes central TSS can be a bit annoying. That said, play Cune well and you should be ok as the majority struggle against CM Cune.
Substitute users are probably the biggest threats.
Phazers like Skarmory, Suicune or Swampert can also cause problems, so keep Magneton as healthy as possible.
Magneton doesn't have Thunder Wave or Toxic because they could interfere with Jynx's Lovely Kiss or Blissey's Sing.
Blissey primarily supports Jynx.
Snorlax has Hidden Power Bug so that it can damage Metagross, Tyranitar, Celebi and other threats when Jynx fails and Dugtrio can't come out,
and so that it isn't completely walled by any pokemon with immunities.
And we're back. After apparently people thought the clamp/wrap to sweepers "wouldn't work on good players" (I suggest you play some more high level RBY, but I digress), I decided I would drop by for the adv round (I haven't played GSC in forever cause it takes like 5 years to get mediocre ladder matches lol).
The idea behind this team is to run a fairly aggressive skarmbliss core based around abusing dug in as many ways as possible. First and foremost, I have the double steel w/ meta and skarm -- the idea behind this to get meta trapped by mag, then counter trap their mag w/ dug, as meta's evs allow me to tank anything mence/tar uses as well as outspeed most band tars and destroy them. The advantage of this is that these types of teams (traditional phys offense, bkc masterpiece, skarm/mag trap etc) typically horribly struggle to remove skarm if mag doesn't do its job -- this lets skarm do what it does best and spike up and wall for all eternity. Speaking of skarm, I am running a ton of physical defense -- the reason for this is that the team lacks swampert/a bulky rock resist (cb meta doesn't really count), so if cune is weakened, I need to handle aero/cb meta/mence/dd tar in a pinch and not roll over. I sacrifice the ability to set up spikes on bulky waters and survive random special coverage, but I'll take that trade.
Similarly to user CZ. above me, I also have bulky gar (with enough to survive crunch/switched pursuit in sand from max sp attk ttar, so I can hard switch to dug and trap it), but I put explosion over taunt. I like explosion b/c it allows me to more easily get through bliss w/ dug in the back so cune can run wild, esp since I can just trap special tar. It's also nice for just general damage if I don't need gar anymore. gar also is nice to serve as a spinblocker for skarm and not leave me totally useless against forre. Now for the core itself, I went with a fairly jank ibeam/stoss/sing bliss as I despise being unable to hit gar and vulnerable to dug trapping. The evs put me right below a lefties number, trying to minimize sand damage, sp attk is dex std (I didn't think I needed max, feel free to comment if you think that's needed). When I used to run this team precore, I was running focus punch lax, but I found that I was losing over to jolt/zap/starm since they eventually break through. Dug is standard -- I thought about adamant, but I really like it's ability to get rid of annoying mons like max speed ddtar, off star if I need to, raikou, etc. I need to test adamant to see if it's worth it.
Finally for cune, I decided to go against rest b/c I really need roar (both for abusing spikes and countering opposing cune) and I like having more than one answer to ddmence in ice beam (the most dangerous threat if you're running a dug). I felt like cune was a nice win con for a spikes team like this since it cleans nicely and plugs some defensive holes (opposing cune, another look for cb meta/mence beyond skarm, niche stuff like blaziken, etc). Another nice thing about cune is I don't run sand, which it loves if ttar is absent from my opp's team. I tried to fit rain dance on this team but I really couldn't.
Some quick strats:
You must play dug fairly aggressively to get mag if you don't get it revenging meta, more so than you normally would. You really miss a lot of your offense if skarm goes down early w/o getting any spikes up. If you've ascertained your opp doesn't have a mag, you can play a bit more conservatively w/ meta (ie I typically wouldn't explode to trade w/ skarm for example). Meta can trade w/ most of the metagame, since bliss/cune take on what it's not good at. don't be too predictable w/ bliss if your opp has multiple layers of spikes, as the team struggles against offensive waters and jolt/zap w/o bliss and a timely explosion/dug trap can be gg.
watch out for taunt gyara, dual rock w/ aero and ddance tar (keep skarm/cune healthy!), dug, milo is annoying, faster cunes w/ recovery, there's prob some more I'm forgetting
If you made it this far, thanks for reading! As for what I did with this team, it got two of my alts beyond 1500 (Idioteque1/AllINeed2) on showdown if that means anything. I also didn't lose with this particular team lol.
Kinda stereotypical lineup - I felt this SubCM Jirachi is one of the better beneficiaries of Tar / Steels being slept and / or forced out of the way and it appreciates Dug support in general so why not. Skarmory offers Spikes and Pert another offensive mon and rock resist, and Tar rounds the team out as a way of pressuring Bliss and potentially Toxicing Pert (making it easier for Jirachi to push past it), as well as being able to exploit Spikes down + sleeping Meta / Skarm on its own. This team looks kinda standard (based on one of Asta's teams that a friend passed me) but it's still effective for all that, also this Jirachi set is lowkey 100% broken and it can and will win games on its own.
Pert set looks weird but I swear it works (it can't get past Celebi and struggles a bit against opposing Milo and whatnot but that's what Jirachi is for, just be careful vs Flygon and potential DDMence).
Skarm speed can be messed around with, I just run this much because creeping stuff like Bliss / Tar / Pert / Meta can be clutch in getting layers down but to each his own.
BKCTar (Focus Punch HP Bug RS EQ) works over DDTox and each are equally viable I feel.
This looks like a fun project, I'll def be back in future weeks.
johnnyg2 wins the ADV teambuiIding. I took a few days of break because of IRL stuff.
The next challenge is for DPP OU and features the core of Zapdos and Latias.
These two share common important counters like Clefable, Blissey, and Tyranitar, so Zapdos can weaken them so that Latias can do its thing. Most of the time, Tyranitar has no way to get its health back, so a lot of the damage you do with Zapdos on it will render it inefficient at some point (and if you carry Toxic it will actually be in a timer). Zapdos can also PP Stall Clefable's Seismic Tosses with Pressure and render it unable to defeat Latias Substitutes (however, you might want to consider HP Ice to deal with Clefable's common teammate Nidoqueen). Zapdos can also deal with some Steel-types for Latias (credits to Vay for core).
So, really simple this time. I just use a lot of broken mons that hit hard. Lead Jirachi is amazing, no one knows what it will do. This time it will just paralize things, set rocks and U-Turn out to gain momentum, all while checking opposing Latias among other things.
You know what Specs Latios does in BW OU ( and the cause of my thinking that it should be banned). Well, Latias in DPP doesn,t reach that absurd level of power, but it is quite close to it. So, it SPAMs her dragon moves and has surf for Steels ( except Empoleon). Also can absorb Spore from Breloom,
Zapdos checks Scizor very well, and hits even better with LO.
Breloom is broken. I don,t even have to explain what it does.
Scarf Flygon takes advantage of those steel types weakened by Latias and tries to clean late game. Also, is the best revenge killer and Scarfer in DPP.
I wanted a second Steel Type that would also resist water ( Starmie is dangerous), so I took a Petaya Empoleon. He likes free turns given by the paralisis of Jirachi and the Sleep of Breloom.