Salamence (Full Revamp)+

[SET]
name: MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Dragon Dance
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

Without Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Skarmory could easily come in on this set. But I still like the whole Dragon Dance up, physical wall comes in to be pummeled by Draco Meteor, even after the KO, you can proceed to Outrage.
 
Fire Blast is listed on the set. What was the point of making that post at all? The set you copied and pasted (then regurgitated the set comments for) has the move you say it needs, and the Set Comments clearly states exactly waht you just said. Why are you posting for the sake of it?
 
The "sand turns 2hkos into ohkos" applies to pretty much any Pokémon in the game, and you should list specific examples for that kind of thing.

Hidden Power Ground and Earthquake do maximize coverage, but Hydro Pump isn't used "only for Heatran" as once thought by myself, but rather as a safe, powerful move to hit Steels and nonSteels all the same. HP Ground should be a Set Comments thing though.
 
Grammar edits and such. Hope this helps. Comments are in brackets [] and bolded. Corrections are just bolded.
Caelum said:
[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
item: Life Orb
nature: Naughty / Naive
evs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The Dragon Dance set is one of Salamence's most dangerous, and is incredibly effective at sweeping towards the end of a match or breaking the mid-game wide open. Salamence is reasonably sturdy and sports a number of key resistances, including immunity to Ground-type attacks, so it should have no problem finding an opportunity to use Dragon Dance. STAB Outrage is extremely powerful and thus a fairly obvious choice; after a single Dragon Dance and with Life Orb, it is capable of at worst 2HKOing almost every Pokemon available in the OU tier, including the Steel-types that resist it. Earthquake complements Outrage well, covering most of the Steel-types such as Heatran and Metagross that resist Dragon; it also provides a good attacking option when Salamence isn't ready to use Outrage, such as during the beginning of a game. Fire Blast handles the very defensive Steel-types that Earthquake doesn't affect significantly, such as Skarmory and Forretress, and OHKOs Scizor; Stone Edge doesn't do nearly as much against Skarmory, but will OHKO the standard physically defensive Zapdos and offensive Gyarados (taking Intimidate into account) [It sounded a little awkward] guaranteed after a Dragon Dance. Dragon Claw is a perfectly usable option over Fire Blast if you prefer to not lock yourself into Outrage, but you must couple this with Magnezone support if you opt for it.</p>

<p>The nature and EVs given are for use with Fire Blast. The small Special Attack investment allows Salamence, with its respectable base 110 Special Attack, to always OHKO a full health maximum HP, minimum Special Defense Impish Skarmory. If one elects to use Stone Edge or Dragon Claw, a 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe spread with Adamant or Jolly nature will suffice. The choice between the Attack-boosting and the Speed-boosting nature depends partially on personal preference. The Attack-boosting nature is recommended if the set contains Stone Edge so Salamence can OHKO physically defensive Zapdos after a Dragon Dance, but the Speed-boosting nature often proves helpful with Fire Blast. While it may seem that Salamence would have more than enough Speed to sweep effectively after a Dragon Dance, a Speed-boosting nature prevents the possibility that Pokemon like Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, Timid Choice Scarf Roserade, and Jolly Choice Scarf Lucario might stand in its way. Additionally, a Speed-boosting nature ensures that Salamence ties with Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, and even other Salamence at worst.</p>

<p>Life Orb is the preferred item because its 30% power boost offers Salamence the opportunity to OHKO many Pokemon it otherwise wouldn't be able to, such as Zapdos and Gyarados. However, it offers no defensive properties, and even detracts from Salamence's HP every time it attacks; as such, Yache Berry and Lum Berry are options for more conservative players. Yache Berry will let Salamence survive most unSTABed Ice attacks, but unlike its Swords Dancing Dragon counterpart Garchomp, Salamence has Dragon Dance, whose Speed-boosting effect lessens the danger from faster Pokemon with Ice attacks; however, Yache Berry is still helpful against Ice Shard users like Mamoswine, bulky Water-types that won't be OHKOed by Outrage, and extremely fast Pokemon that will outrun Salamence even after a Dragon Dance. Lum Berry is another useful defensive item that will heal Salamence if it inadvertently is paralyzed, burned, or put to sleep.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Hydro Pump
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence boasts extraordinary offensive prowess on both ends of the attacking spectrum but Speed that sometimes falls short of what is necessary, so a mixed Choice Scarf set is natural. Such a Salamence is well-suited for sweeping late-game, when most opposing Pokemon are weakened; Outrage is perfectly tailored for cleaning up, and Earthquake and Fire Blast ensure that no Pokemon is capable of resisting Salamence's attacks. Hydro Pump rounds out this set nicely considering it easily 2HKOs Hippowdon, Donphan, and Gliscor, Pokemon that would otherwise give this set problems. Draco Meteor is usable over another move, likely Hydro Pump.</p>

<p>Fortuitously, maximizing Salamence's Attack gives it just enough power to 2HKO all Vaporeon after integrating Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers recovery. The 176 Speed EVs result in 280 actual Speed, outrunning all base 90 Speed Pokemon not possessing a Speed-boosting nature, and Timid Heatran along the way. The remainder is invested in Special Attack to provide a boost to Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, though it doesn't convert any significant 3HKOs into 2HKOs or 2HKOs into OHKOs.</p>

[SET]
name: Specially Bulky - I'm going to delete your post if you comment on the EVs of this right now. WAIT UNTIL I FINISH
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Roost
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 236 HP / 64 Atk / 112 SpD / 96 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>WIP, ignore the comments below, they are there for my reference.</p>

<p>Salamence's spectacular offenses often mask its more than decent defensive abilities, which this specially bulky set attempts to take advantage of. As this is a more defensive set than the previous ones, and because this set pivots on being able to Roost after a single attack, Dragon Claw outright replaces Outrage here. Earthquake remains a useful complement to the STAB Dragon attack. Dragon Dance and Roost feed into the fact that this set is not entirely defensive, but rather takes advantage of some unexpected defensive power to score unusually placed boosts and eventually sweep while Roost maintains Salamence's health.</p>

<p>The EVs ensure that this Salamence will survive an unSTABed Hidden Power Ice from 359 Special Attack, such as from Timid Choice Scarf Gengar, or Ice Beam from 266 Special Attack with at least 10% health left, enough to launch a reprisal and not faint through Life Orb's recoil. As most Water-types don't possess that much Special Attack, Salamence can often beat them with a combination of Roost, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw. 92 Speed EVs returns 259, sufficient to outrun Timid Shaymin-S and Modest Choice Scarf Heatran after a single Dragon Dance, effectively putting the latter into a checkmate position. Modest Heatran is incapable of outrunning this Salamence and thus would be OHKOed by Earthquake, but Timid Heatran's maximum Special Attack is 359 would not be able to deal more than 90% to Salamence. 259 Speed is also enough to outrun Jolly Weavile after a Dragon Dance, but it is recommended to check for Ice Shard before attacking it.</p>

<p>An alternative spread for this set, to make it fully special defensive, is to use a Careful nature with Leftovers and an EV spread of 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe. Leftovers' health recovery gives this Salamence much more surviviability, at least nullifying the detrimental effects of possible sandstorm or hail, letting this Salamence switch in more often.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically Bulky
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers / Lum Berry
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although this set's moves are identical to those of the Specially Bulky set, the EV spread causes it to be played very differently. Salamence is surprisingly durable on the physical end, augmented by Intimidate's Attack-reducing effect. The attacks serve the same purpose as those in the previous set, though Outrage becomes an option again since the ability to Roost immediately after a single attack is no longer critical. Lum Berry is a very good item to consider if you opt for Outrage and just to avoid status attacks in general. The EVs ensure that after Intimidate, a Choice Scarf Heracross does no more than 46% with Stone Edge, guaranteeing Salamence's survival even with a critical hit; Lucario's Life Orb and Swords Dance boosted Extremespeed will also never 2HKO. The EVs also attain 280 Speed, which is important to outrun Adamant Lucario so Salamence won't be OHKOed by Ice Punch; on the way, 280 Speed also outruns Timid Choice Scarf Heatran and Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross. [Not many people opt for Jolly ScarfCross, so you could get rid of Adamant in that sentence. Skymin is also banned at the moment.] Unfortunately, this Salamence is incapable of dealing with Bronzong, Skarmory, and Scizor, one of the greatest physical threats around, unless it uses Flamethrower or Fire Blast, forcing it to split its EVs. Thus, Magnezone support is highly recommended when using this set.</p>

<p>This set can be made more offensive with an Adamant nature and Life Orb, though that significantly cuts down on its durability.</p>

[SET]
name: MixMence V1
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Roost / Crunch
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Salamence's powerful mixed set is capable of cracking a stall wide
open, as it is capable of hitting any Pokemon in the entire game very hard. Draco Meteor's 140 base power provides a wealth of immediate strength and Fire Blast hits Steel-types like Jirachi, Skarmory, and Metagross. Flamethrower is a more reliable but significantly less powerful option in Fire Blast's stead; usually, the power drop isn't worth the raised accuracy Brick Break strikes most Pokemon that can take the special attacks potently, Pokemon like Blissey, Empoleon, and Heatran, 2HKOing all three with Stealth Rock down, and OHKOs Tyranitar. Roost is the more commonly used option in the fourth slot, canceling out Life Orb's recoil to an extent and helping against other residual damage; however, Crunch is available to hit Cresselia and Dusknoir after they suffer a Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Rash nature and Life Orb ensure that MixMence hits as hard as possible; it needs the boosts to pick up the 2HKOs and OHKOs that it absolutely needs to get. 176 Speed EVs returns 280, like the EV spread of many other Salamence sets, outrunning Adamant Lucario. One can, however, experiment with different Attack and Special Attack weightings, depending on one's team and personal experience or preference.</p>

[SET]
name: MixMence V2 (I'll get a better name in a bit) [The best new name: Mildly Outrageous!]
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Outrage / Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
evs: 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>A variation on the standard MixMence, this time making use of Salamence's balanced offensive stats and ridiculously high-powered STAB moves in Draco Meteor and Outrage. Earthquake and Fire Blast are obvious choices to combat Steel-types that resist your Dragon attacks. Roost is an alternative over Outrage to recover Stealth Rock and Life Orb damage but should be considered a lesser option.</p>

<p>The EVs are specifically designed to combat a few of Salamence's most common switch-ins. The given EVs allow Salamence to KO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Cresselia on average with Stealth Rock damage by a combination of Draco Meteor on the switch-in and then two repeated Outrages. The Attack EVs also guarantee that Outrage 2HKOs Bold 252 Def / 252 HP Blissey after laying down Stealth Rock [Otherwise, it’s a ~60% chance of OHKO]. 208 Speed EVs assure that Salamence outruns all Gyarados prior to a Dragon Dance. Mild is chosen over Rash so that Cresselia's or Blissey's weaker Ice Beams do not KO.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Aqua Tail
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Earthquake / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Naive / Naughty
evs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence makes fantastic use of Choice Band due to its impressive stats and accommodating move pool. It is also very effective because most opponents will be anticipating the [got rid of a “the”] more common Dragon Dance or Mixed sets and they will not be ready for an immediate attack. [People are expecting a physical attacker, so it’s less of a surprise than say the Specs set.]</p>

<p>Outrage is expected for the high base power and STAB while Aqua Tail complements this surprisingly well. Aqua Tail is useful against Hippowdon and Gliscor, both of whom are 2HKOed the majority of the time with Stealth Rock damage. Aqua Tail is also a safety option against Heatran, Magnezone, and Metagross if you fear locking yourself into Earthquake.[How so? I am confused.] Fire Blast is for the obvious Skarmory and is your best option against Celebi without having to lock yourself into Outrage. Earthquake is standard fare and an all around excellent offensive move, it is specifically helpful for Steel-types and is your best option against Tyranitar. Stone Edge is also a decent option to consider in the final slot for Zapdos, who is OHKOed 74.36% of the time with Stealth Rock damage, and also provides a way to kill opposing Salamence and Gyarados without locking yourself into Outrage. [maybe you could find a different way of saying “locked into Outrage”] Dragon Claw is also a decent move to consider, in particular when coupling Salamence with Magnezone support, as a secondary STAB if you worry about locking yourself into Outrage. If coverage against bulky Ground-types is of little concern any of the options in the fourth slot are acceptable alternatives to Aqua Tail.</p>

<p>A Naive nature is used to get the jump on neutral-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon and positive Speed natured base 90s while not weakening the power of Fire Blast; although Naughty is still a viable option to increase Salamence's Attack to guarantee 2HKOes on bulkier Pokemon such as Hippowdon. Alternatively, you can run a nature that does not effect your Defenses and simply opt for Fire Fang. Maximum Attack and Speed should be rather obvious while the small investment in Special Attack guarantees Salamence 2HKOes 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Celebi with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

[SET]
name: SpecsMence [This should stay the name of this set, IMO]
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Hydro Pump
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Choice Specs Salamence's decrease in usage comes a rise in the surprise factor. [I personally don’t think usage should be mentioned, but hey.]Choice Specs boosted Draco Meteor is the most powerful single attack that Salamence can use in one turn without prior setup. While it is normally unwise to use two offensive attacks of the same type in a single moveset, there are some exceptions, such as here; Dragon Pulse is best used for late-game sweeping, whereas Draco Meteor makes an enormous impact earlier. Flamethrower complements the Dragon-type attacks well, and Hydro Pump picks off the rest, including Pokemon like Heatran, Bastiodon, and Probopass. Hydro Pump is also an incredibly useful coverage move in situations where your prediction may be less than perfect.</p>

<p>Choice Specs Salamence's usage has dropped dramatically from levels during the primordial metagame because it has absolutely no way of bypassing Blissey </p>

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Roost
move 2: Wish / Toxic
move 3: Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Flamethrower
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This particular Salamence is suited to take hits from Heracross, Lucario, and various other Fighting-types. Salamence also makes a great switch-in to Scizor, especially if it lacks Iron Head. With Intimidate bolstering Salamence's Defense, it is able to switch into a variety of physical attacks. A Swords Dance Life Orb Lucario's Close Combat can only manage 46-54% after Intimidate. [Slightly restructured.] Crunch and Extremespeed will both do less damage. After an Intimidate, not even Ice Punch will be able to OHKO this Salamence and with the given EVs, Salamence will also always outrun Adamant Lucario.</p>

<p>Roost gives Salamence an instant 50% recovery move while removing one of its weaknesses and reducing another. Wish allows Salamence to support the team while offering a secondary form of healing for itself. Toxic is a plausible option that allows Salamence to wear down defensive threats. Draco Meteor is Salamence's most powerful attack, allowing it to hit hard even without Special Attack investment. Flamethrower offers great coverage when paired with Draco Meteor and allows Salamence to 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO both Forretress and Scizor. Earthquake is another option on the set that could be used in order to more easily take on Heatran. Even with a Bold nature and 0 Attack EVs, Salamence still has a 92.3% chance to OHKO a 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran.</p>

<p>The EVs allow Salamence maximum physical durability while still retaining the ability to outrun Adamant Lucario.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Yache Berry (Ice-resist) is a viable option on the Dragon Dancer, but Dragonite makes better use of it with his superior defenses. You can run Aerial Ace if you really hate Heracross or Breeloom, but its type coverage is poor besides that. The 100 base power Dragon Rush may be appetizing, but its 75% accuracy sure isn't. Rock Slide is available to any set where Stone Edge is usable but the low base power makes it undesirable. Any set can run Choice Scarf as a surprise but generally the given Choice Scarf set is your best option.[This sentence does not make sense to me at all.]</p>

<p>Hidden Power Ground is a viable option over Hydro Pump on the Choice Specs set, given its ability to guarantee an OHKO on Heatran regardless of its HP investment and its super effectiveness against Empoleon. However, it has very little utility and Hydro Pump is almost always better. It's often unwise to have a Pokemon locked into a Ground-type attack, though, since many of the most dangerous threats in the game, including Gengar, Gyarados, and Salamence itself are immune to the type. The only reason to even consider it over Hydro Pump is because of its superior accuracy.</p>

[Paragraph from Opinion is here]<p>Pairing Salamence with a Rapid Spinner to keep Stealth Rock off the field will prolong Salamence's lifespan. Getting your hands on a Wish Jirachi will greatly benefit you, as Salamence and Jirachi cover each other's weaknesses perfectly. Salamence is weak to Ice, Rock and Dragon attacks, all of which Jirachi resists, and Jirachi is weak to Ground and Fire and takes neutral damage from Fighting and Bug, all of which Salamence resists or is immune to.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Due to Salamence's stat distribution and Intimidate he can really be EVed to accomplish just about anything. For the more complicated spreads, you'll want to use what was recommended prior to accomplish the specific goals listed. Generally speaking, you'll want to either pump Salamence's offenses or play up its defenses to capitalize on Intimidate. You should generally aim for either 270 Speed or 299 Speed, with either Attack or Special Attack at 252 EVs and the rest in Salamence's respectable 95 base HP. The 328 Speed a Jolly or Naive nature offers will probably still not be fast enough to offset the drop in power in the long run.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Salamence is arguably one of the biggest threats in DPPsince it can hit very hard from both ends of the damage spectrum without needing to set up. There is literally no one counter to Salamence until you know its moveset, and even then it can be a challenge to take. Its versatility makes it a fantastic sweeper in the early, middle and late-game, which is not something you can say about a lot of Pokémon. If you use it wisely, Salamence should win you a lot of battles. Although, You will have to account for both Stealth Rock and Sand Stream, however, or non-Leftovers Salamence will take a minimum 25% (Stealth Rock) + 6.25% (Sand Stream) = 31.25% [How did we miss that?] damage every time it switches in and attacks, and this is assuming it is untouched by your opponent's Pokémon.


[Moved second Paragraph to OO, it doesn’t belong here.]


[Counters]
<p>[Rearranged this appropriately. I also split up the Paragraphs: before it looked like a wall of text.] Bronzong is a nice initial switch into any Salamence, but it should be Sassy [nixed the explaination of the nature: It’s not needed.] with a lot of HP and SpD EVs to maximize the power of Gyro Ball and not drop the power of Explosion as well.Gliscor with Ice Fang and Roost can come in on all but the Draco Meteor variants, and an Impish, defensively EVed Rhyperior will sponge physical attacks nicely. Porygon2 is arguably the best counter to any physical-based Salamence due to its unique ability to Trace Intimidate, further it can cripple Salamence with either Thunder Wave or Ice Beam.</p>

<p>Nothing really counters the DD Salamence set well at all. Bronzong is your best bet, but Bronzong can be 2HKOd by a Life Orb Fire Blast. Otherwise, nothing can safely switch into DD Salamence at all. The trick to countering DD Salamence is to lure it into locking itself into Outrage, and then switching in a physically defensive Steel- type such as Skarmory or Registeel. Even then, watch out for the Magnezone that may be hiding behind Salamence.</p>

<p>Hippowdon and Cresselia make decent initial switch-ins against the Choice Band set, but are vulnerable to 2HKOes from Outrage. Gyarados with Ice Fang or Avalanche can switch into physical variants thanks to Intimidate, but it should be very bulkily EVed. Weezing can come in on physical variants and use Will-O-Wisp and or Pain Split accordingly. Suicune has a harder time handling Choice Band Salamence compared to Advance thanks to the now-physical Dragon Claw, and it is nearly OHKOed by Draco Meteor, but can still switch in sometimes. And while Milotic handles special attacks better than Suicune does, it is not a general Salamence counter since a Choice Banded Dragon Claw is a 2HKO half the time on a physically defensive Milotic [“pumping defense?”] and is guaranteed with Outrage.</p>

<p>Ice Shard Donphan / Mamoswine / Weavile can come in if Salamence faints a Pokémon and ward it off 100% of the time, but the only one of those three that can actually switch into Salamence is Donphan, and that's only on the physical variants, preferably the Dragon Dance Salamence. This works especially well if Salamence is locked into Outrage since it will be unable to switch out.</p>

<p>Blissey and Empoleon counter SpecsMence versions (the latter if Calm and properly EVed), and a Calm Cresselia can shrug off SpecsMence's attacks well provided there's no Sandstorm. A Careful Registeel with Ice Punch can handle SpecsMence in a pinch as well, even in spite of the weakness to Fire. A Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Ice Heatran can handle SpecsMence to some degree, but you will need a large HP / SpD EV investment. Stone Edge Cradily would function similarly provided you max its HP and Special Defense and use it in a Sand Stream to boost its Special Defense.</p>

I am not a grammar freak, so I hope this is okay.

A few other things:
- SR can be mentioned in the counters section just for the fact that it takes 25% off Mence’s HP every time he switches in.
- Dusknoir can counter just about any Salamence set without Crunch.(That set being the DD set)
- On the Choice Scarf set, consider putting the SpA EVs into Spe if they aren’t doing much.
- Following what others have said, HP Ground should be added to the Specs Set.
 
If I remember correctly, Specsmence eventually dropped Hydro Pump in favor of HP Ground, which was also dropped in favor for Earthquake, as it was found that each successive move to be more effective on the same targets specified to those moves (Heatran being a good example).

no. not gonna repeat myself, please read that



Is there any particular reason why Fire Blast has been snubbed in favor of Flamethrower on the Choice Specs set? I find Fire Blast's additional power to be a godsend.

525 SpA Flamethrower vs 252/0 Metagross = 90% - 107% (41% chance of an OHKO)
525 SpA Fire Blast vs 252/0 Metagross = 114% - 135%

525 SpA Flamethrower vs 252/0 Celebi/Jirachi = 75% -88%
525 SpA Fire Blast vs 252/0 Celebi/Jirachi = 95% - 111% (67% chance of an OHKO)

525 SpA Flamethrower vs 252/96 Sassy Bronzong = 66% - 78%
525 SpA Fire Blast vs 252/96 Sassy Bronzong = 83% - 98% (28% chance of an OHKO with SR)

Sure, the accuracy bites at times but SpecsMence is all about OHKOing the opponent outright and if I can sacrifice accuracy and PP to use a move that gives me a higher chance of OHKOing the 11th, 13th, 14th and 15th most common Pokemon on the Standard Ladder then I will. The additional power is useful in other situations too when your prediction isn't quite right (for example, Flamethrower will never 2HKO 252/0 Zapdos whereas Fire Blast deals up to 64%).

i disagree that specsmence is all about OHKOing the opponent outright, and i will use your examples to show you why. as i stated verbatim in my original writeup 1½ years ago with regard to choice pokemon, "they're all about prediction, on the part of both the user and his or her opponent". therefore, if any of the above three pokemon are heads up against a specsmence that is not locked in, they are either going to be fearful of getting OHKOed anyway. so i think you suggested these pokemon are switching into salamence.

this makes the point rather moot because bronzong is always 2HKOed and always slower. celebi is nearly OHKOed by draco meteor, which "you should have used" if you predicted it was coming in because it's more powerful than FT (unless you don't wanna miss, in which case FTing is fine since're you know celebi's coming in and all). it is a coincindence that Metagross and jirachi both can threaten Scarf Ice Punch now, making them better switches into Specsmence, but otherwise, FT threatenes the same easy 2HKO on both, likely OHKOing metagross anyway (btw you can't use SR to help your argument then ignore it when it hurts it, lol =/).

I think in general missing is just ass on choice pokemon, especially those that can't come in forever like salamence thanks to SR. i still wouldn't recommend FB because sala can less afford to miss than something like CB Rhyperior using Stone Edge
 
Originally Posted by Mia
On the mixed set, I have seen Dragon Pulse and Flamethrower listed over Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. While I personally prefer the extra power as well, the article is catered to the varied potential readers that may prefer the accuracy boost or the benefit to retain SpA after using a STAB dragon move and could be noted as possible alternatives. I would also like to recommend Naive over Rash if only to better use Intimidate.

Why would you use Dragon Pulse on Mixmence? The hole point is the fuck shit up while you can.... Draco Meteor 2HKOs most Suicune and Vaporeon switching in on Stealth Rock. Dragon Pulse won't. Draco Meteor OHKOs Zapdos after Stealth Rock. Dragon Pulse won't. The idea of the set is to abuse Salamence's high base power STAB Moves. If you switched the set to Dragon Pulse / Flamethrower / Earthquake / Dragon Claw it wouldn't nearly be as threatening.
 
On the defensive set it still has "Salamence also makes a great switch-in to Scizor, especially if it lacks Iron Head."
which I don't think think makes sense in the platinum metagame. As soon as they have attacked Salamence any half intelligent player would switch seeing that it's bullet punch is doing significantly less damage and they would suspect something is up. It could be plausible if you switch in on a sword dance in which case you take 35.53% - 41.88% from bullet punch. You will most likely have to switch after KOng Scizor meaning you can't roost and you will not be able to switch in on a attack again.(you've lost 25% from SR the first time and you will lose another 1/4 on your second switch in)

It's a situational switch in at best.

Heracross
-1 Choice Scarf stone edge does 39.34% - 46.19%
-
1 Choice Band stone edge does 58.38% - 68.78%

So you get the KO on one poke that is hard to wall and is better dealt with offensively than defensively. Scizor is better dealt with in other manners Not worth a set in my opinion.

I'm not going to even bother with Lucario as most carry ice punch

And as shown with the percentages physically bulky isn't that viable IMO because stealth rock limits your ability to switch in. Better left to others who just have a natural higher defense stat.

I would be for removing ALL bulky and defensive sets as Stealth Rock hampers their ability to be effective and Dragonite does them better for a variety of reasons (light screen, better overall defense). Salamence's sets should focus on being offensive. If you disagree with me please prove it or give personal battle experience with the bulky/defensive sets that you have used because this is just theorymon here.
 
Lucario | Move | Ice Punch | 24.7

Most don't have Ice Punch. Also, this is why you are EVed to outrun Lucario, you don't come in on the Ice Punch (which it survives anyway).

Bulky Salamence has been successful for a lot of players and you are going to have a lot of trouble convincing anyone of them being removed when you state that everything you just said was based strictly on theorymon (arguably bad theorymon as well).
 
25% is still a significant number. How often do we use moves that miss 25% the time? That one time it happens or that one time lucario has ice punch really sucks.

What advantage does any bulky salamence have over bulky dragonite? Intimidate that is it. I would rather have inner focus in today's metagame. (Edit forgot: skymin is voted uber) The set works better switching it in after a poke has died anyway.

Yes Bulky dragon dance is effective but Dragonite does it better

-They have virtually the exact same attack stat.
-Dragonite has better defenses.
-On the pokes listed you outspeed all of them with one dragon dance on dragonite as well.
-It's not a mixed set so the special attack is of no significance
-Porygon2 cannot bounce intimidate back.

Unless you can list any significant threats that Salamence outspeeds after one dragon dance that Dragonite does not, this set isn't as good. You are going to getting off mulitple DD's anyway so speed isn't really an issue. Why would you use a less bulky pokemon?

Edit 2:
I don't think my theorymon is that bad maybe just not explained well. If they switch in anything that can threaten your salamence after you have taken the hit and KO'd Luke Hera or Scizor you've all but lost Salamence. I guess if you feel that is worth losing salamence over that's ok but it doesn't do that good against those threats.

You've already taken (without doing calcs here) at the minimum 35% from scarf hera but more often than not more from the other pokes if they predicted right . You've lost 25% on you first turn from stealth rock meaning you are at around 45% health at most. They send in their revenge KO pokemon of choice forcing salamence out or KOing him. Salamence comes back in later in the match losing another 25% now leaving him with a measly 15% health in the best of cirumstances which is not enough to take hits from much.

Salamence is i guess "gimmicky" as a defensive poke which is what I'm trying to get at.
 
Caelum, from initial calculations and testing (just a few matches) I have a couple questions.

First, that spread takes special hits only slightly better than aldaron's spread, at fractions of a percentage, but you are giving up quite a bit of attack power by reducing the attack ev's.

So, my question is, how is that spread better than aldaron's? Yeah, the attack ev's aren't needed per se, but they do help to hit other things harder. The ko against cressy can just be a nice perk. I don't know much about generating ev spreads, but it just seems like you are wasting some ev's. I'd rather take hp ice from zapdos 0.3% harder and hit that much harder myself than have those ev's put elsewhere.

The only thing I can think of is that having those hp ev's means you can take random physical hits better. But I thought that the entire point of this set was to specialize in special hits while still being able to hit somewhat hard.

Last note, I don't think life orb is still viable on said set, if you dd at full health and survive, you could be left with as little as 1.3% from a heatran hp ice, meaning that the recoil would ohko yourself. I think lefties might be viable though.
 
Mrobinson587:

The fact Porygon2 can Trace Intimidate is a bonus for p2, not a negative for Salamence. Sure, it can be annoying, but to denounce Intimidate to such a degree that you would 'rather have inner focus' is just insane.

And how often do we use moves that miss 25% of the time? Not very often!

Honestly, it was hard to read the rest of your post too, especially after those first two statements. Your 'logic' is all over the place.
 
Mrobinson587:

The fact Porygon2 can Trace Intimidate is a bonus for p2, not a negative for Salamence. Sure, it can be annoying, but to denounce Intimidate to such a degree that you would 'rather have inner focus' is just insane.

And how often do we use moves that miss 25% of the time? Not very often!

Honestly, it was hard to read the rest of your post too, especially after those first two statements. Your 'logic' is all over the place.

How is it not a negative for Salamence? You are at one less Attack then you would have had and you lose your ability to do enough damage to Pory 2 before succumbing to to ice beam.

My point with the 25% number is that something occurs often enough that we don't use it. If Lucario has ice punch ~25% of the time you don't switch in your Salamence because it is not a safe switch in. Besides Even Max HP/defense Salamence doesn't work that well against SD lucario. Look in the box below for the numbers.

With the omnipresent stealth rock and sandstream, Salamence can only ever switch in on Sword dance or a non boosted attack with high health for him to safely land the KO on lucario.

Between Ice Punch, Extremespeed and stealth rock damage salamence is more often than not a poor switch in to Lucario.


(I'm pretty sure I thought out the "does not have a guaranteed safe switch in unless above" parts correctly)

Code:
Damage Calcs using Metalkids. All switch ins assume Stealth Rock

Lucario - Adamant, 252 Att EVs @ Life Orb
vs Salamence +Def 252HP 252 Def

Ice Punch
-1 60.41% - 71.07%
0 89.34% - 105.08%
+1 132.99% - 156.35%

Close Combat
-1 17.77% - 21.07%
0 26.65% - 31.22%
+1 39.59% - 46.70%

Crunch/Extremespeed
-1 15.99% - 18.78%
0 23.86% - 27.92%
+1 35.28% - 41.62%
For +1 ES, Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 67%


The first move listed is the one Salamence switches in on
-1 Ice punch + ExtremeSpeed = 76.4 Min
Salamence loses with if it switches in on Ice punch

-1 Close Combat + ES = 39.85% Max
Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 54%

-1 Crunch/ES + ES = 37.56% Max
Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 56%

If Crunch lowers defense than
-1 Crunch + ES on -1Def Salamence = 46% Max
 Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 71%

+1 CC + ES = 74.87% Min
+1 Crunch +ES = 70.56 Min
 


Vs Timid 252 hp 180 Def
-1 Ice Punch 70.56% - 83.25%

Close Combat
-1 21.07% - 24.62%
0 31.22% - 36.80%
+1 46.70% - 54.82%

Crunch/Extremespeed
-1 18.78% - 22.08%
0 27.92% - 32.74%
+1 41.62% - 48.98%
For +1 ES, Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 74%

-1 Close Combat + ES = 47% Max
Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 72%

-1 Crunch/ES + ES = 44% Max
Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 69%

If Crunch lowers defense than
-1 Crunch + ES on -1Def Salamence = 55% Max
Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 80%

+1 CC + ES = 88.32% Min
+1 Crunch +ES = 83.24 Min
If Salamence switched in on anything during the battle and took any residual damage it's going to be losing a lot of it's ability against late game sweeping Lucario.

Def bulky salamence is not really safe switch in on Heracross , Lucario or Scizor unless at very high health. Scizor has better counters already. Scarf Heracross will always KO you with Stone Edge if it hits both times and will switch if they are locked into something else.

Is this idea still considered to be effective against them? To me it looks like a defensive job better left to somebody else. If those 3 are the primary reasons for using this set than this set isn't that great should be removed from the analysis. That or mention that rapid spin support is crucial to it's success.
 
Originally Posted by Fat Mrobinson587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat QibingZero
Mrobinson587:

The fact Porygon2 can Trace Intimidate is a bonus for p2, not a negative for Salamence. Sure, it can be annoying, but to denounce Intimidate to such a degree that you would 'rather have inner focus' is just insane.

And how often do we use moves that miss 25% of the time? Not very often!

Honestly, it was hard to read the rest of your post too, especially after those first two statements. Your 'logic' is all over the place.


How is it not a negative for Salamence? You are at one less Attack then you would have had and you lose your ability to do enough damage to Pory 2 before succumbing to to ice beam.

My point with the 25% number is that something occurs often enough that we don't use it. If Lucario has ice punch ~25% of the time you don't switch in your Salamence because it is not a safe switch in. Besides Even Max HP/defense Salamence doesn't work that well against SD lucario. Look in the box below for the numbers.

With the omnipresent stealth rock and sandstream, Salamence can only ever switch in on Sword dance or a non boosted attack with high health for him to safely land the KO on lucario.

Between Ice Punch, Extremespeed and stealth rock damage salamence is more often than not a poor switch in to Lucario.


(I'm pretty sure I thought out the "does not have a guaranteed safe switch in unless above" parts correctly)


Code:
Damage Calcs using Metalkids. All switch ins assume Stealth RockLucario - Adamant, 252 Att EVs @ Life Orbvs Salamence +Def 252HP 252 DefIce Punch-1 60.41% - 71.07%0 89.34% - 105.08%+1 132.99% - 156.35%Close Combat-1 17.77% - 21.07%0 26.65% - 31.22%+1 39.59% - 46.70%Crunch/Extremespeed-1 15.99% - 18.78%0 23.86% - 27.92%+1 35.28% - 41.62%For +1 ES, Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 67%The first move listed is the one Salamence switches in on-1 Ice punch + ExtremeSpeed = 76.4 MinSalamence loses with if it switches in on Ice punch-1 Close Combat + ES = 39.85% MaxSalamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 54%-1 Crunch/ES + ES = 37.56% MaxSalamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 56%If Crunch lowers defense than-1 Crunch + ES on -1Def Salamence = 46% Max Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 71%+1 CC + ES = 74.87% Min+1 Crunch +ES = 70.56 Min Vs Timid 252 hp 180 Def-1 Ice Punch 70.56% - 83.25%Close Combat-1 21.07% - 24.62%0 31.22% - 36.80%+1 46.70% - 54.82%Crunch/Extremespeed-1 18.78% - 22.08%0 27.92% - 32.74%+1 41.62% - 48.98%For +1 ES, Salamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 74%-1 Close Combat + ES = 47% MaxSalamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 72%-1 Crunch/ES + ES = 44% MaxSalamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 69%If Crunch lowers defense than-1 Crunch + ES on -1Def Salamence = 55% MaxSalamence does not have a guaranteed safe switch unless above 80%+1 CC + ES = 88.32% Min+1 Crunch +ES = 83.24 Min
If Salamence switched in on anything during the battle and took any residual damage it's going to be losing a lot of it's ability against late game sweeping Lucario.

Def bulky salamence is not really safe switch in on Heracross , Lucario or Scizor unless at very high health. Scizor has better counters already. Scarf Heracross will always KO you with Stone Edge if it hits both times and will switch if they are locked into something else.

Is this idea still considered to be effective against them? To me it looks like a defensive job better left to somebody else. If those 3 are the primary reasons for using this set than this set isn't that great should be removed from the analysis. That or mention that rapid spin support is crucial to it's success.

Ok, your entire argument is completely wrong. I don't mean to sound so cut, dry, and blunt... but you clearly misinterpreted the set and everything you said is just... wrong.

For starters, Lucario isn't going to have +1 AND get two attacks off on Physically Bulky Salamence. It just won't. Why? You won't wait until after something dies to bring Salamence in, you bring it in immediately when it Swords Dances.

Secondly, the point of Physically Bulky Salamence is to be faster than Lucario, which is a problem with the current EV spread which Caelum will fix (right cael?). As long as Salamence has 308 Speed, there is absolutely nothing to fear from Lucario. +1 Extremespeed does shit damage, and if it uses anything else it is outsped and OHKOed. Why do you think we changed the Gliscor analysis???? This set works exactly the same way. Max HP / Defense Salamence isn't viable anyway, hence why Max HP / Defense Gliscor is no longer a preferred set!!!!

That is why I proposed the new EV spread of 192 HP / 140 Def / 176 Spe, Jolly.

Also, Physically Bulky Salamence is a fantastic switch into Heracross. However, the idea isn't to switch it in on Stone Edge (duh). The whole thing about all the defense was in case you fuck up with predicton, you will still live in the event Stealth Rock isn't on the field. In the case of you facing CB Heracross, again... you survive the Stone Edge, but this time you are faster and can Roost to remove your weakness to it. No where in the analysis is it suggesting "hey, lets switch Salamence into Heracross Stone Edge!"

And in regards to you saying "ohh, well Salamence isn't a safe switch in because of Stealth Rock or because its weakened." Neither are going to be OHKOing after Stealth Rock, and the weakened argument can be said for any pokemon against any of its counters. The damn thing has Roost for a reason.

Also:

Originally Posted by Fat Mrobinson587
Salamence is i guess "gimmicky" as a defensive poke which is what I'm trying to get at.

This sentence is proof that you have no idea what you are talking about!

Lets take a look at the top 10 Pokemon in order of usage based off December's statistics:

Scizor
Heatran
Salamence
Tyranitar
Gyarados
Zapdos
Blissey
Infernape
Gengar

Since Blissey is a pure wall, I'll omit her from this list. Since Salamence is such a "shitty" defensive pokemon, I will break down in DETAIL how it fairs agaisnt these top 9 threats defensively.

Scizor - Salamence doesn't wall this directly, but the Physically Bulky spread sets up on CB Scizor locked into Bullet Punch... It musters a mere ~30% meaning Salamence can set up on it.

Heatran - Both Physical and Special Salamence can switch into Heatran's two most common attack moves, Fire Blast and Earth Power. Neither are 2HKOed by Stealth Rock and can Roost it off every time. Furthermore, after a DD, Choice Scarf Heatran can't revenge kill you later because you are faster.

Salamence - Direct confrontatons are stupid, but how about Intimidating Salamence and luring in the outrage for your steel????

Tyranitar - If CB Tyranitar is locked into anything other than Stone Edge, Physically defensive Salamence can set up. It will force Tyranitar out in fear of Earthquake, allowing you to Dragon Dance.

Gyarados - RestTalk DD Gyarados is pure set-up fodder...

Zapdos - If Zapdos lacks Thunderwave or Hidden Power Ice, which a good amount do, both Salamence can set up on it, buying an Electric resist with each Roost.

Infernape - is mostly leading these days, meaning it lacks HP Ice and is walled 100% by both sets.

Gengar - set-up Fodder for Specially Defensive...
 
Okay Caelum, 11% more on the physical seems like a reasonable enough amount to go with your spread. I have no more problems with this analysis atm then.
 
since registeel is mentioned as a specsmence counter despite its fire weakness, i belive regice should be listed as well; if properly ev'ed, not even a specs fire blast has a chance at 2hkoing (barring stealth rock or other form of passive/residual damages obviously)
 
Regice doesn't resist Draco Meteor, though. The idea is that Registeel can come in on anything but Fire Blast easily and still take that too, while Regice I guess shrugs off Draco Meteor... okay I agree.
 
Edir:*sigh* sorry to blab on with long posts I'll try and make these shorter in the future
@RaikouLover

Meh I guess showing 252Hp 252def Salamence was unnecessary but I guess I wanted to show that the purely defensive set now isn't that good against the 3 threats listed that it is supposedly suited to take hits from.

The only one I was saying wasn't really viable or isn't good the Defensive set at the bottom. My point was on that set that if Salamence is going to be your answer to those threats that set doesn't do to much damage because all they have to do is switch which as you have pointed out they are likely to do as they can't do much on non super effective hits. However Salamence can never switch in on an ice punch or stone edge which will be predicted the next time they get in to attack. As soon as his health gets chipped away from multiple switch in's Salamence is susceptible to ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch. Sure he has roost but constantly roosting limits when he can attack


Dragon Dancing is another story as it allows it to do a lot more damage ouput while still being defensive. However, I'm pretty sure all of those special attackers are better walled by a bulkier Dragonite running the same DD/EQ/ DragonClaw or Outrage/Roost. The only notable significant threat out of those that you don't outspeed after DD is Scarf heatran (unless you invest heavily in speed taking away from bulk) After 2 DD's, which is likely to happen on bulky sets, the speed boost that Salamence has is of no importance and Dragonite has better defenses. So if dragonite does the purely special bulky set better, shouldn't it be mentioned that dragonite does this set better, but doesn't outspeed Scarftran after one DD?

Porygon2 does 40.51% - 47.69%to a roosting salamence with Caelum's spread and only does 54.01% - 63.64% with a +0 life orb outrage in return

Dragonite does 80.21% - 94.39% with the same 64 Att evs +1 life orb outrage

SpDef Nite could probably have more attack EV's to be able to take special hits the same as salamence.

Yes I understand that Salamence can take physical hits better on the switch in. But on those top threats you listed:

-Dragonite is going to be immune to EQ and Earth power anyway
-Salamence and Dragonite will not fare well switching into stone edge.
-A -1 CBCrunch is a 2HKO on a full health SpDef Mence if it switches in on stealth rock while salamence can only do 67.79% - 79.74% withlife orb EQ.
-With the same 236HP/0Def on Dragonite a +0CB crunch on tyranitar doesn't OHKO a full health dragonite switching in on stealth rock so again it's a 2HKO.
-Lead infernapes do jack squat with Close Combat to Dragonite
- A sleeping rest talk gyarados is still pretty good set up bait
-Dragonite will almost never switch in on salamence but could also Outrage bait the same way minus intimidate. You are going to be switching to a bulky steel anyway so the -1 attack you would have won't make a whole lot of difference to a resistor.

-Dragonite can set up all of the special attackers better than salamence due to better SpDef

So on the top threats you listed raikoulover there isn't really much of physical defense advantage on the SpDef Dragonite besides maybe scizor who isn't going to be doing much damage short of sword dance and will switch anyway. Is SpDef Mence meant to be a scizor counter anyway?

So maybe not gimmicky as I had said but rather not as good as Dragonite at least on the SpDef Bulkydragon.

The physically bulky set obviously has some advantages but only on switching in and with speed after 1 DD again. I don't have any problems with that set.

So basically purely Defensive set (the bottom one) not that good in today's metagame. SpDef Bulkynite > SpDef Bulkymence (unless someone can show me some clear advantage SpDef Mence has over Dragonite besides out speeding scarftran after 1 DD)
 
I'm still debating at this point whether outrunning Jolly Lucario is worth the drop in defenses. Gliscor is a different situation because of his better defensive typing and lack of Stealth Rock weakness and overall better defenses, and in all honesty I wouldn't have minded if you EVed it to outrun just Adamant Lucario. I'd like feedback since Jolly Lucario was only used only 18% of the time last month - is it "worth it". I'm fine with either spread really and both will get a mention in Set Comments. I just haven't decided which will be the primary spread.

I would put the 280/281 spread as primary (ie the one seen in the analysis) and mention the faster one in set comments. i've tried both and the 280 has worked better nearly every time.
 
I'm leaning towards using the bulkier one myself. I've felt it needs the greater bulk since it chips off 25% every time it switches in to begin with.
 
Originally Posted by Caelum
I'm still debating at this point whether outrunning Jolly Lucario is worth the drop in defenses. Gliscor is a different situation because of his better defensive typing and lack of Stealth Rock weakness and overall better defenses, and in all honesty I wouldn't have minded if you EVed it to outrun just Adamant Lucario. I'd like feedback since Jolly Lucario was only used only 18% of the time last month - is it "worth it". I'm fine with either spread really and both will get a mention in Set Comments. I just haven't decided which will be the primary spread.

That's understandable enough Caelum. However, if you don't run Jolly you will lose 100% of the time to Jolly Ice Punching Lucarios. The main bonus of the set is that it is a sweeper that can also stop Lucario. Losing to 18% of the Lucario's out there isn't a good counter :-(. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of Jolly Ice Punch Lucario to get the jump on Gliscor and Salamence that run 280 Speed so you can OHKO them...? The same does go with Gliscor. If you don't run Jolly and the proper speed, you lose your Gliscor to 18% of Lucario, its that simple.

@ Caelum... also have a name idea for you.

Whenever I recommend the Draco / Outrage Mixmence to people, I refer to it as "The Mixed Bomber." Meh, kinda corny but it does sound better than DracoRage...lol.
 
you may also want to differentiate the last set (defensive) since there are other defensive sets in the analysis. I would just rename it - Pure (or Purely?) Defensive

edit: skiddle's suggestion is awesome (and makes sense, too!)
 
hahaha, RL you should call it 'Double Deuce' (flipping someone off with both hands) that's a pretty awesome name ?_?
 
Double Deuce is perfect, since Salamence is always a total prick to counter, especially with both Outrage and Draco Meteor.
 
Back
Top