-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Salamence is Uber.
- Thread starter Curtains
- Start date
To be perfectly honest, Salamence's ban was almost entirely meaningless. Salamence is no threat to a team with anyone knowing Ice Shard.
Too bad most of the things that know Ice Shard cannot switch into Mence. You're better off trying to argue for Bronzong's ability to switch into Mence instead.
(They do switch into DD sets tho, which is a plus).
Not exactly the point. The thing is, when you ban the top dog, another will rise in it's stead. That's why it's meaningless to ban a Pokemon based on over centralization or in an attempt to "diversify" the metagame.
if a pokemon cant destroy teams thanks to 1 single bad prediction then he wont overcentralize the metagame that much. sure there is always the number 1 in usage but if he got decent counters then i dont see a problem with that. mence on the other hand could destroy anything on the tier with either the DD or mixed set.
No, it's not. This is the same misconception that disgruntled Salamence fans keep repeating; that the banning of the top pokemon automatically means that the next pokemon down is bannable.
The relevant factor to determine something's banning is not whether or not it is at the top, but how far ahead it stands out from the rest of the metagame. If one pokemon is a clear outlier, as the Council believed Salamence to be, then it makes it meaningful to ban Salamence without banning anything else.
Well one thing is certain, banning in order to try to expand diversity is pretty futile. If Mence was banned for good reason, it was to enhance game play and competition, not to increase diversity.
Whether it's OU, new UU or old UU, the level of centralization (by X-Act's mesures) have been relatively similar, and all have generally kept around 40-50 "ou" pokemon as standard.
No matter how many people mis-construe this, UU is no more uncentralized than OU, and with or without mence, centralization will be relatively similar. In terms of usage stats, Mence never became top of the pile anyway. My guess is a group of 4-5 pokemon will get extreme usage, and bulky waters as a group will get even more. Don't you love every team:
1. Heatran
2. Bulky Water
3. Rotom-H/Zapdos
4. Celebi/Shaymin
5. Suicide Lead / Tyranitar / Flygon or Dragonite / Fighting Type / Extra Steel Type / Extra Water Type / Blissey (if stall)
6. Suicide Lead / Tyranitar / Flygon or Dragonite / Fighting Type / Extra Steel Type / Extra Water Type / Blissey (if stall)
Whether it's OU, new UU or old UU, the level of centralization (by X-Act's mesures) have been relatively similar, and all have generally kept around 40-50 "ou" pokemon as standard.
No matter how many people mis-construe this, UU is no more uncentralized than OU, and with or without mence, centralization will be relatively similar. In terms of usage stats, Mence never became top of the pile anyway. My guess is a group of 4-5 pokemon will get extreme usage, and bulky waters as a group will get even more. Don't you love every team:
1. Heatran
2. Bulky Water
3. Rotom-H/Zapdos
4. Celebi/Shaymin
5. Suicide Lead / Tyranitar / Flygon or Dragonite / Fighting Type / Extra Steel Type / Extra Water Type / Blissey (if stall)
6. Suicide Lead / Tyranitar / Flygon or Dragonite / Fighting Type / Extra Steel Type / Extra Water Type / Blissey (if stall)
But we don't ban a Pokemon based on overcentralisation. Those who think so don't know how the system works. Overcentralisation is a symptom of a Pokemon being broken, not the cause.
Gyarados will probably rise to the rank of top sweeper but it has problems with things like Shaymin, Celebi, Rotom-A and Vaporeon with HP Electric. Lucario can potentially take everything out if it would be able to run Swords Dance, Close Combat, Extremespeed, Crunch, Stone Edge, and Ice Punch and have perfect prediction but the fact is it can't do either and has hard counters if it doesn't run the right moves. I still don't agree with banning Salamence but it was definitely more broken than any sweeper currently in OU since it only needed to run 5 moves to be unstopable and even if it didn't predict perfectly, it could still do plenty of damage to things that switched in on it.
...wait, how come we totally forgot about Kingdra!? Of course Kingdra thrives in RD teams, thanks to Swift Swim; it can also abuse Sniper if you are not using rain.
Talk about four-moveslot syndrome...Reminds me of Murkrow in LC.
I agree, but the distance between the best pokemon of the metagame and the second-best is subjective, and fluctuates depending on the state of the metagame. When Garchomp was banned, it was way above the rest of OU in terms of power. Back then, Salamence's usage was ranked, what, 11th, in the final month of Garchomp? I don't think anyone had a problem with Salamence's "brokenness" back then. We all argue how broken Salamence is now, but the Pokemon itself hasn't changed, only our attitudes towards it. That's why I (and other community members) think that the cycle of electing a "broken" pokemon will repeat.
Salamence was number 11 in the first place cause of the overcentralization of Garchomp. Overall it was a better pokemon. It's the same with Dragonite before salamence was banned, much to my dismay. Now dragonite will rise in usage but unlike Salamence and garchomp it's easier to deal with cause it's the most balanced out of the three.
Not only that but the overcentralization and eventual banning of pokemon is based on what factors are set in to make said pokemon uber. Salamence was broken cause it could make holes in the opponent's team, had no realistic counters, and could beat it's checks along with multiple other factors. What other pokemon can play that card?
Actually, that's incorrect. People didn't have a problem with Salamence's "brokeness" back then because it wasn't broken. Garchomp was banned before Platinum came out, and therefore before Salamence got Outrage; before Platinum, Salamence had to rely on Dragon Claw, which simply isn't powerful enough to make him broken. If Salamence had Outrage before Platinum, there's a very good chance he would've made it onto the initial suspect list along with Garchomp.
Thought this was worth looking at, the removal of Salamence is going to have a HUGE effect on the OU metagame, and as such, it will take time, but soon we will be seeing new sets for pokemon, that absolutely rip to shreds teams built like this, and we will once again have progress in the metagame. So yes you are right, teams will be looking like this, but things will be changing.
Scizor is not going Uber anytime soon.
Anyone think Arcanine can fit into the OU scene with Salamence gone? Arcanine no longer has to worry about Mence Intimidating, resisting its STAB and outspeeding. While Gyarados can do the same, Arcanine is faster and has ThunderFang, while it had to use Dragon Pulse as its strongest attack against Mence, which was not physical. Arcanine can also serve as another useful Intimidate user, since Gyara is the only one with it in OU. I will agree that Heatran is almost always the better option, but for those who need Intimidate, better speed, a better physical attack stat, and some priority, Arcanine can serve its uses.
Anyone think Arcanine can fit into the OU scene with Salamence gone? Arcanine no longer has to worry about Mence Intimidating, resisting its STAB and outspeeding. While Gyarados can do the same, Arcanine is faster and has ThunderFang, while it had to use Dragon Pulse as its strongest attack against Mence, which was not physical. Arcanine can also serve as another useful Intimidate user, since Gyara is the only one with it in OU. I will agree that Heatran is almost always the better option, but for those who need Intimidate, better speed, a better physical attack stat, and some priority, Arcanine can serve its uses.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I don't think Arcanine learns earthquake, so it will be walled by Heatran, which will probably be hugely popular. I don't know about everyone else, but I think that would outweigh Intimidate.
EDIT: on closer inspection, I see it has falsh fire, so I suppose it could be a check for choice Heatran.
EDIT: on closer inspection, I see it has falsh fire, so I suppose it could be a check for choice Heatran.
anyway i think the slippery slope argument really can't be applied here. i mean this is a community with intelligent users making decisions, it's quite obvious that breloom is not uber, it's quite obvious that suicune is not uber, because they all have hard counters and can be beaten without excessive prediction. i'm gonna say that i really liked how mence was dealt with. we can't deny that the salamence council put a lot of thought into their votes, and that they're some of the most experienced and best players of this generation. i'd like to see 5th gen suspect tests done like this
You almost nailed it on the spot some comments about it are in bold. I don't really see Heatran getting so much usage for so long as the FWG cores are going to be popular at first soon enough the 'G' will stand for Ground instead of Grass. When this happens I think that Heatran's usage will go down so you should just replace Heatran with Steel in general for that. For all of the teams reluctant to get rid of Heatran and once they realize that Grass isn't that great of a type Flygon will be used as a partner with Heatran. Zapdos / Starmie will then get even more use as a check to Flygon and each other. Soon enough the Metagame may become Stagnant again.
Here's why Arcanine won't fill Salamence's shoes:
1. Defensive Typing: Flying-Dragon gives an immunity to EQ, as well as resistances to Fighting, Fire, Water, Grass, and Bug, of which it gets a 4x resist to Grass.
Arcanine gets no immunities (because Intimidate > Flash Fire in most cases) and a resistance to only fire, ice, bug, and grass, as well as a weakness to Ground, Rock, and Water.
2. Offensive Typing: Salamence's Draco Meteor and Outrage are resisted only by steel, while Arcanine's Overheat and Flare Blitz are resisted by Bulky Waters, other Dragons, and Heatran.
3. Moveset: Arcanine's moveset sucks. Salamence gets excellent coverage with Dragon-Ground-Fire, while Arcanine has to run Fire STAB - Thunderfang - Iron Head to get even close. And even then, Arcanine can't put the hurt on Bulky Waters, nor can it kill Heatran, Swampert, etc.
4. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, 5 Base Speed. This is a crucial difference between the two, as it allows Arcanine to be outsped by Base 100's, including the ever-popular Flygon, Tentacruel, Zapdos, and Jirachi among others.
Does anybody else think that Flygon might be able to run a mixed set? I mean, sure it has only 80 Base SpAtk, but with access to Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, as well as a STAB on EQ, it might just be able to tear down walls. Not to the same extent as Mence of course.
1. Defensive Typing: Flying-Dragon gives an immunity to EQ, as well as resistances to Fighting, Fire, Water, Grass, and Bug, of which it gets a 4x resist to Grass.
Arcanine gets no immunities (because Intimidate > Flash Fire in most cases) and a resistance to only fire, ice, bug, and grass, as well as a weakness to Ground, Rock, and Water.
2. Offensive Typing: Salamence's Draco Meteor and Outrage are resisted only by steel, while Arcanine's Overheat and Flare Blitz are resisted by Bulky Waters, other Dragons, and Heatran.
3. Moveset: Arcanine's moveset sucks. Salamence gets excellent coverage with Dragon-Ground-Fire, while Arcanine has to run Fire STAB - Thunderfang - Iron Head to get even close. And even then, Arcanine can't put the hurt on Bulky Waters, nor can it kill Heatran, Swampert, etc.
4. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, 5 Base Speed. This is a crucial difference between the two, as it allows Arcanine to be outsped by Base 100's, including the ever-popular Flygon, Tentacruel, Zapdos, and Jirachi among others.
Does anybody else think that Flygon might be able to run a mixed set? I mean, sure it has only 80 Base SpAtk, but with access to Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, as well as a STAB on EQ, it might just be able to tear down walls. Not to the same extent as Mence of course.
Garchomp had 80 Base special too, but Chain Chomp still saw play. I've always liked ScarfGon with Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/EQ/U-Turn.
This is the Chainchomp set, right? I can see Flygon running a similar set, but instead of trying to set-up a swords dance and sweep, it can go U-turn to bluff the Scarf set against slower opponents.
I'll test this out sometime.
Edit: the Life Orb kinda gives away the fact that it's not scarfed. Maybe Outrage over SD?
True, but then I believe it misses out on some of the 2HKOs that Chainchomp could achieve with Life Orb.
There's also Draco Plate. Meh, overall if it isn't scarf (possibly band), it's pretty Gimmicky. Flygon just doesn't hit hard enough to try to make surprise kills (because there's very little it can actually kill without CB). :/
edit: Even with full ATK evs Flygon's ATK is nothing to write home about. With few to no EVs in ATK, EQ and U-Turn will be doing near-worthless damage anyway. I say just do this:
Flygon
@Draco Plate
Modest
4 HP 252 Sp.ATK 252 speed
-Draco Meteor
-Earth Power
-Fire Blast
-U-Turn
Even then, seems like a pretty gimmick-bad set to me. The value to Chain Chomp was that Draco Meteor could take out some of Garchomp's usual checks (Hippowdon, a weakened swampert), and it's still have a reasonable chance to bash face with EQ. Even then, Chain Chomp was an OK gimmick at best. Nearing Garchomp's banning, Chainchomp was all but non-existent from the meta (Most every Garchomp was Yache or at least some kind of Sub-Chomp, with some Scarf's a hand full of Banded ones).
Flygon's checks/counters are no more afraid of Draco Meteor than they are of Outrage (since anything with reasonable bulky is a flygon check, it need not be special or physically oriented perse), and it's ATK is so mediocre that without EV'ing, it'll be next to worthless.
edit: Even with full ATK evs Flygon's ATK is nothing to write home about. With few to no EVs in ATK, EQ and U-Turn will be doing near-worthless damage anyway. I say just do this:
Flygon
@Draco Plate
Modest
4 HP 252 Sp.ATK 252 speed
-Draco Meteor
-Earth Power
-Fire Blast
-U-Turn
Even then, seems like a pretty gimmick-bad set to me. The value to Chain Chomp was that Draco Meteor could take out some of Garchomp's usual checks (Hippowdon, a weakened swampert), and it's still have a reasonable chance to bash face with EQ. Even then, Chain Chomp was an OK gimmick at best. Nearing Garchomp's banning, Chainchomp was all but non-existent from the meta (Most every Garchomp was Yache or at least some kind of Sub-Chomp, with some Scarf's a hand full of Banded ones).
Flygon's checks/counters are no more afraid of Draco Meteor than they are of Outrage (since anything with reasonable bulky is a flygon check, it need not be special or physically oriented perse), and it's ATK is so mediocre that without EV'ing, it'll be next to worthless.