Salamence is Uber.

[Treadshot A1]

Well, crap. I play ubers sometimes, and having Mence moved up...

...actually doesn't have that much effect. Why am i even complaining? It's not like i haven't seen/used Mence before, it's not like i haven't sweeped with Mence before (though i second the Garchomp Sweeps Better notion).

Playing OU, i've faced a Mence, with my own Mence as well, and they weren't exactly too bad. LO adds up, i guess. Running Protect also screws up Mence easily (i happen to have 2 protectors, and i'm NOT a stall player), Draco Meteor is just setup bait once you protect against it once. On the switch, set up and attempt to get some damage done, or at least that's been working for me, though admittedly i'm not the most well versed in competitive pokemons, and MixMence is a pain.

Still, as much as i don't have a issue with Mence's Uber status, i can only say it was kinda inevitable with Latias and Garchomp moved. There's no reason for Mence to avoid the cut either.

 

[nevada11]

Shut up if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Salamence lures out Rayqauaza's checks so it can sweep easier and vice versa. There's also Mence's base 100 Speed, which prevents it from being revenged by Giratina-O, Palkia, Dialga, and it doesn't tie with Rayquaza. Moreover, no one likes that blue fucker anymore than Dragonite

But seriously, stop bitching about Mence being Uber .-.

'Stop bitching about Mence being uber'. Well it's my first post "bitching", and it's going to be quite hard to just suddenly stop when you give me a reply like that >_>.

Well yeah, like it says on its profile on smogon, it teams up well Rayquaza, but I would appreciate it if you don't put words into my mouth. You didn't need to teach me how well Salamence teams up with Rayquaza, its already on its profile on smogon.com, the point I'm trying to make is that it's going to be used a hell of a lot less often in Ubers and a lot less effective than a shit load of other sweepers, therefore you're almost killing the pokemon. Let's not make it sound like THAT many people use a Quaza-Mence combo anyway, or thats its as effective and common as you are say it is. Salamence doesnt get revenged by pokemon like Dialga and Giratinia? Go figure, that certainly is awesome (/sarcasm). I doubt Salamence even stays in on those pokemon. Salamence going to the Uber tier isn't making the thing extinct by any means, but certainly a hell of a lot less effective and used.

 

[Treadshot A1]

Maybe it's because i'm still a noob to competitive battling, but i've had a lot of success with SashJask, after one of my pokes dies to Mence. They either blindly attack into Protect, or switch, giving you a speed boost either way, and good prediction nets a SD on top of that. Meh, noob strategy, i guess, but it gets a good laugh when you pull it off.

 

[Mercy]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Anything that was checked/countered by Mence will rise. Heatran will become number 1 used.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?
It will rise a bit but wont be dominant

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Shaymin

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I liked the idea of the council, since the testing process takes longer

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Havent used it yet.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, and Magnezone.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Nothing

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
5th Gen is coming soon, so yes.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
It has no counters so of course it was a good candidate.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Cherrim

 

[Chillarmy]

Salamence doesnt get revenged by pokemon like Dialga and Giratinia? Go figure, that certainly is awesome (/sarcasm). I doubt Salamence even stays in on those pokemon.

You're damn right that's awesome. ScarfDialga revenges shit that gets hit SE by Draco/Thunder/Earth Power/Fire Blast outspeeding and OHKOing it is great lol. Giratina-O has enough Speed to make mincemeat out of Adamant Rayquaza, and it's immune to ES. Stop making assumptions about a tier that you don't have experience in

edit: Wait, are you trying to say that mence's ban wasn't the best choice BECAUSE it's not a "top tier uber"?

 

[TAY]

So can someone explain how banning salamence makes stall the best style of play? Dragonite has the same typing as salamence, still outspeeds an entire stall team, has more bulk than salamence, and has salamence's entire relevant movepool plus superpower. Its 10 fewer base special attack points are not enough of a decrease to make its draco meteor significantly weaker by any means.

Furthermore, there are a huge number of anti-stall options available to any player, including Taunt, Substitute, and several different powerful Life Orb and Set Up sweepers (Lucario, Infernape, etc). Stall doesn't do too well against Trick, Explosion, and Choice Band/Specs either. It is tough to say that stall was not common before solely because of salamence - there clearly were and still are a large number of viable anti-stall options.

If anything, banning mence helps balanced teams, since they can now afford to run more of the mid-speed bulky sweepers they love so much.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Dragonite may be a better wall breaker (and actually a better anti-stall pokemon), but I think the issue with it is that its lower speed will always means its presence will be less wide and less felt than mixmence's. It just doesn't bring the same overall value to the team.

Even if it's a better anti-stall pokemon, less presence means less pressure on stall.

 

[Gymdude]

What does that even mean? less presence? Since when does 'presence' determine the outcome of a game? Nobody cares about presence if a pokemon can do the job right.

dragonite and salamence sometimes played similar roles, usually with mence coming out on top, but nite can break stall just as well, if not better, than mence.

 

[rxhar]

Nobody ever thinks about Kingdra? (If there is somebody who did, just lol.) He is faster than Nite and does well with the Heatran and FWG-dominant metagame, and his only weakness is much less exploited. Still loses to Flygon though, but definitely decent now.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Dragonite is arguably a better stall-breaker than Mence - the speed difference doesn't matter, while access to Superpower is huge because you don't have to lock yourself vs. Blissey. However, it fills a more specific role - Salamence could deal so much raw damage to offensive teams, whilst Dragonite just can't do that because it's less threatening to a lot of things.

 

[Erebyssial]

I honestly hate this decision enough that I will -never- play on the OU later again.

Comments like this really confuse me, so a question for all of those complaining: What does Mence bring to the game that Dragonite doesn't, that makes OU so much more enjoyable to the point you want to quit because it's banned? I see these silly boycott posts as nothing more than obnoxious whining that stops after a week like every tier change, but if there's actually a reason I'm curious to hear it.

Either way all I can say is suck it up and adapt to the metagame you're given. If you refuse to then you obviously don't enjoy this game enough in the first place.

The voting system was completely flawed, normal players had no in put. And the 'best' players, don't always know what's 'right' for the masses. They vote as what's right for them/there battle style.

If they wanted a -true- reflection of the Smogon community, they should have held a public poll about the fate of one of the most common pokemon to the meta game. Smogon for me now offers good movesets, nothing else.

"Normal" players should decide? Like the ones who say Mence is OU because <Ice attack> kills it and don't know anything about the tiering process? Yeah no thanks, a public poll to decide tiers would be the dumbest thing ever. And yes every player does have input, anyone can play on the suspect ladder and participate in discussions. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame, not those who voted.

 

[rxhar]

"Normal" players should decide? Like the ones who say Mence is OU because <Ice attack> kills it and don't know anything about the tiering process? Yeah no thanks, a public poll to decide tiers would be the dumbest thing ever. And yes every player does have input, anyone can play on the suspect ladder and participate in discussions. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame, not those who voted.

Yet the tiering system, 'the Smogon Council' as it self-styled, does make an average player feel neglected, knowing how his\her input is minuscule compared to the final voters', like how the user you quoted felt. To me the Council is like a Soviet Politburo or Catholic Inquisition or something of the sort. A simple straw poll system is indeed stupid, but I think a weighted (based on performance) public poll system can at least make many more users feel much better -- or just don't poll at all. Smogonites aren't too welcome at other fansite forums for a reason. Smogon always had a taste for and embraced elitism, one can't deny that.

 

[remlabmez]

I honestly hate this decision enough that I will -never- play on the OU later again. UU and under IMO. Rachi/Bre is far -more- broken then mence will ever be. Outside of Shody, I personally will still be playing Mence as OU because it's just to weak in Ubers.

The voting system was completely flawed, normal players had no in put. And the 'best' players, don't always know what's 'right' for the masses. They vote as what's right for them/there battle style.

IF you know how to handle Salarmance, you prepare your team to take it down, like scizor, Heatran and the lot. No pokemon is a threat if countered correctly. And Salamance -is- easily countered.

If they wanted a -true- reflection of the Smogon community, they should have held a public poll about the fate of one of the most common pokemon to the meta game. Smogon for me now offers good movesets, nothing else.

they did have a public poll, it was called play on suspect ladder and standard ladder and prove yourself worthy of voting which how the council was built...is it smogons fault that only top players were the one to send in apps to be on the council?

anyways I said this before in the old mence stark thread, throwing a mixmence on your team didnt even mean you were breaking stall at all. I say this from experience as well as I used a stall team for a lot of laddering to see if mence was really that big of a threat to stall and it really wasnt. there are plenty of things to break stall as Tay mentioned. when using stall I had a harder time with random things with taunt, offensive spikes team that never really gave me a chance to spin, gengar behind sub. I can go on but I have to let people be a little creative

 

[ultimatellama]

That's certainly true. Having top tier players deciding whether or not anything is OU is great for top tier play, but leaves the vast majority of all smogonauts out in the cold. Let's face it, most of us on here will never hit the leaderboards. We're just not that good. That said, is it fair that we should have to accept the decisions of an elite few, who have their own level of play foremost in their minds when banning?

Take a play lower down the ladder and you see worse play and more diverse teams. I don't mind seeing Salamence thrown in, since he's not too much of an issue if the player doesn't know what they're doing. In the hands of a truly skilled player, he might be mad good, but where I play he's easy enough to handle.

I posit therefore, that the 'OU' quality of a pokemon is determined by how well it performs at top-end play, and that any tier changes are made with that in mind. That's fine, and certainly the smiplest solution, benefiting players who take the game seriously and are hotly competitive, as it should. It does, however, seem to ignore and ostracise further members of the community who aren't in the same league.

I have no problem with Mence being OU, btw, just making an observation ^^.

 

[Ice-eyes]

The Smogon Council system is definitely not perfect, and I would have preferred a simpler process such as that which seems to work in UU, working off Suspect/OU ladder rating.

 

[shrang]

That's certainly true. Having top tier players deciding whether or not anything is OU is great for top tier play, but leaves the vast majority of all smogonauts out in the cold. Let's face it, most of us on here will never hit the leaderboards. We're just not that good. That said, is it fair that we should have to accept the decisions of an elite few, who have their own level of play foremost in their minds when banning?

Take a play lower down the ladder and you see worse play and more diverse teams. I don't mind seeing Salamence thrown in, since he's not too much of an issue if the player doesn't know what they're doing. In the hands of a truly skilled player, he might be mad good, but where I play he's easy enough to handle.

I posit therefore, that the 'OU' quality of a pokemon is determined by how well it performs at top-end play, and that any tier changes are made with that in mind. That's fine, and certainly the smiplest solution, benefiting players who take the game seriously and are hotly competitive, as it should. It does, however, seem to ignore and ostracise further members of the community who aren't in the same league.

I have no problem with Mence being OU, btw, just making an observation ^^.

While I do believe the Council can be a bit bigger because 9 people makes way too small of a sample space, I also believe we are doing the right thing by leaving the voting to top players only. It is definitely fair because to be frank, most of the players playing around Smogon have no idea what they are doing and therefore, shouldn't be able to vote.

 

[Erebyssial]

Yet the tiering system, 'the Smogon Council' as it self-styled, does make an average player feel neglected, knowing how his\her input is minuscule compared to the final voters', like how the user you quoted felt. To me the Council is like a Soviet Politburo or Catholic Inquisition or something of the sort. A simple straw poll system is indeed stupid, but I think a weighted (based on performance) public poll system can at least make many more users feel much better -- or just don't poll at all. Smogonites aren't too welcome at other fansite forums for a reason. Smogon always had a taste for and embraced elitism, one can't deny that.

Well yeah obviously you have less power if you don't vote, but he said normal players have no input at all which isn't true. If you feel really strongly about which tier a Pokemon belongs in, you go and play on the suspect ladder with a team that tries to prove it and present your arguments in discussions to try and convince people, including those who plan to gain voting rights.

If I understand what you mean by weighted public poll based on performance, that was exactly how the process was prior to Mence. And please explain Smogon elitism, that shit died years ago and I don't quite understand why that criticism is still thrown around.

 

[rxhar]

While I do believe the Council can be a bit bigger because 9 people makes way too small of a sample space, I also believe we are doing the right thing by leaving the voting to top players only. It is definitely fair because to be frank, most of the players playing around Smogon have no idea what they are doing and therefore, shouldn't be able to vote.

So instead of being a majority community, Smogon should be a collection of a few elite players? As stated by Smogon's staff,

Ultimately, this is really the desire and the point of Smogon - it is not so much to "enforce" the standards, but to give its users the skills necessary to make new ones! The saying goes "two heads are better than one" - indeed, hundreds of heads are far better than just the ones of the small circle of Smogon's elite. It is also not desired to merely "give" people the standards and expect them to be used; but for people to understand the standards and why they work.

Smogon isn't supposed to be elitist. Yet it is appars elitist. So I fancy we'd better help Smogon become more friendly and 'teachy', just like what the staff wanted to?

If I understand what you mean by weighted public poll based on performance, that was exactly how the process was prior to Mence. And please explain Smogon elitism, that shit died years ago and I don't quite understand why that criticism is still thrown around.

Alright, I know little about the old 'shit' as you call it, I'm just using a noun which seems appropriate to describe the current system of tiering. I haven't been on the forums of Smogon much either, so if what you said is true, I am a supporter of the old system then.

Altaria, Flygon and Dragonite will be the only FE dragons that aren't uber, and the latter two were definitely not outclassed by mence (Flygon's Ground type; Nite's X-Speed, Inner Focus, and bulk). Altaria is, of course, still uu.

Now SERIOUSLY what IS up with Kingdra? Is it not a Dragon-type because it isn't weak to Ice? I see no reason why he shouldn't benefit from the banishment of Salamence.

 

[RBG]

Yet the tiering system, 'the Smogon Council' as it self-styled, does make an average player feel neglected, knowing how his\her input is minuscule compared to the final voters', like how the user you quoted felt. To me the Council is like a Soviet Politburo or Catholic Inquisition or something of the sort. A simple straw poll system is indeed stupid, but I think a weighted (based on performance) public poll system can at least make many more users feel much better -- or just don't poll at all. Smogonites aren't too welcome at other fansite forums for a reason. Smogon always had a taste for and embraced elitism, one can't deny that.

And how did the previous method not make the "average player" feel neglected? How many "average players" qualified under the previous methods? Why should we let "average players" decide the tier lists? Did they have more say in the previous method at all if most average players didn't qualify? The only difference between how people were chosen this time is that this method allows for the appearance of the bias card to be played more than in the past. Look at the people who applied. They are mostly the same people who have been voting in the past votes because they are active and know how the metagame works.

No matter what method we would have done to do this vote, people would have complained. This method was chosen because it gets done faster, and it gets the best people, who understand the metagame better than anyone else, as well as the effects of a pokemon being removed from a tier, and gives them the power. Keep in mind, there are plenty of "average users" who think Pokemon like Blissey should be banned. Do we hold a poll simply because some of them feel it is broken?

The fact is, and this is why I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about this, Smogon ONLY decides tiers for our site. Period. We don't try to force our tiers on others. We understand not everyone agrees with our tiers. Our tiers are made specifically for the most competitive players. (Note: Please read our philosophy page, as it is required reading that every user should read in order to understand what Smogon is about) There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with them at all. There is nothing wrong with deciding to go to another site and help make that site have an official tier list this is different than Smogon's. How does that make us elitist? This whole Smogon Elitist thing is a relic of the days of Old Smogon that has faded since then. If you want to argue this elitism things with me, bring it to PM. But how would having 9 members chosen by admins for the superior battle prowess be any more or less elitist than not having a vote like you suggest we should do? If anything that harkens back to the olden days of Smogon in ADV when the sole responsibility of deciding the tiers fell upon the head of the Smogon Tour. Is that less elitist than the current method? Would you prefer that we do that method instead?

This is the last that will be said on the topic of the process. Anything that needs to be said about the council has already been said by me or someone else in this thread. Like I said earlier.

Any posts from here on out complaining about bias or the process of which Salamence was voted Uber will be deleted. This thread is to discuss the effects of Salamence leaving OU on the Standard metagame. It is NOT about complaining about Salamence becoming voted Uber, expressing your desire to leave Smogon, how out of touch you are with Smogon, how out of touch the voters are with Smogon, or to suggest any conspiracies/bias in the voting process.

 

[shrang]

So instead of being a majority community, Smogon should be a collection of a few elite players?

No-one mentioned that. We're saying that we won't allow an all out vote because most of the people don't know what they are on about, so why allow them to vote?? While yes, I believe a 9 people council is too small, we don't want an election with thousands of people voting because probably >90% of the people have no idea. It's like trying to get the common folk to try and vote on what the best way to treat cancer is. It just doesn't work when you do that.

 

[rxhar]

Well, I won't argue anymore as the mod asked us to stop. Again, gonna mention Kingdra for the last time - he really deserves more love now.

 

[Lee]

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

I didn't get the chance to play much suspect but I understand the FWG core has became popular so I'd expect something like Starmie to become more prominent due to it being able to hit all three super effective and still be able to support the team with Rapid Spin or use Recover to help counter Gyarados (who is almost certain to rise now that he's the premier Dragon Dancer) and Infernape (who, assuming MixApe, never really had problems with Salamence anyway but will surely benefit from the removal of an Intimidate Pokemon). Scizor will probably drop too so Starmie won't have to fear Pursuit quite as much. So yeah, go Starmie. <3

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

The idea that all of the Council are die-hard heavy stall players who voted to protect their playing style (because apparently Salamence is the be-all and end-all of stall breaking or something?) has been bugging the heck out of me. It's just garbage because, looking at the nine, I would only consider 2, maybe 3 of them to be recognised stall players. It actually looks like a fairly balanced group. As has been said countless times, Dragonite is a more efficient stall-breaker not just because of Superpower, but because he is a more effective user of Roost. Nothing is more annoying for a stall user then having a Dragonite Roost in their face after they've took heavy damage whittling him down with SR, SS and LO damage. I'm sure stall users will be happy to see him go but I don't think it will boost their play-style at all.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

Just about any physical attacker is going to benefit because you've taken the most common user of Intimidate out of the game. Yes, even Electivire!

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

Moderator or no, I had no input at all in any of this so I was as out in the cold as anyone and yet I'm perfectly happy with the way it was handled. I'm gonna be blunt and say that some of the people shouting elitism should lurk more and realise that the Smogon Council =/= Legion of Doom. It wasn't some shady conspiracy held at the bottom of a lake. They didn't all sit around a table stroking cats and speaking in Russian accents. The reality was that nine of the most experienced and most successful battlers of this generation were gathered under two guys, in Jumpman16 and Aeolus, who have been doing this kind of thing for close to a decade and were able to reach the conclusion that Salamence had a damaging impact on the metagame so I am happy to put complete faith in them and their decision.

After question 4, the questions start to get a bit silly or pointless so I'm just going to leave it there.

 

[Game Freak201]

I'm still wondering why the council is getting so much hate. It's essentially like the earlier suspect tests except for the smaller voting pool and the much faster decision. Both methods were created to leave out the majority of people who had no clue on how the tiering system even works. In fact, there were many people like me who perfectly understood the tiering system, but never even bothered to participate. Though, that was more due to apathy about the suspects in general than anything else. So, why is the earlier method so much better than this one beside the fact that nine may have been too small a number?

 

[drcossack]

I'm still wondering why the council is getting so much hate. It's essentially like the earlier suspect tests except for the smaller voting pool and the much faster decision. Both methods were created to leave out the majority of people who had no clue on how the tiering system even works. In fact, there were many people like me who perfectly understood the tiering system, but never even bothered to participate. Though, that was more due to apathy about the suspects in general than anything else. So, why is the earlier method so much better than this one beside the fact that nine may have been too small a number?

Perhaps it's the way the tests were done - in the previous suspect tests, people had the choice whether they could participate or not. I don't recall too much complaining, but I didn't pay attention either. With the council, the masses were ignored, and they apparently didn't like that.

There's also the...stupidity of most of the player base - the link on facebook, as well as gamefaqs, has people using the "Ice Beam/Ice Shard" argument...which simply doesn't work. If it had been left up to them, Salamence would likely remain OU.

Granted, I'm indifferent on what tier Mence gets placed in - he works in both, though he is much easier to play with in Ubers because of Wobbuffet. Either way, in the hands of a skilled player, he can rip through a team VERY easily. LO, Sandstorm, and SR shorten his lifespan...though it may not have enough of an impact when he can just Outrage for an OHKO on anything that isn't a steel type.

 

[Deaga]

That's certainly true. Having top tier players deciding whether or not anything is OU is great for top tier play, but leaves the vast majority of all smogonauts out in the cold. Let's face it, most of us on here will never hit the leaderboards. We're just not that good. That said, is it fair that we should have to accept the decisions of an elite few, who have their own level of play foremost in their minds when banning?

Yes, it sure is.

It's the same people down the ladder who think Electivire is a top tier Pokémon and hold him in OU to this day, even though nobody on a high skill level uses it. Because it's that bad. But lower rank players won't notice this, for a variety of reasons. That's just an example.

And those same people will know how to judge if a Pokémon is uber or not? Really?


I also think it's interesting to note that in Advance, where I started playing, and in GSC and RBY (I'm pretty sure) the ban system was all more arbitrary. Things were simply banned from the beginning, the end, and that's it. And there was nowhere near as much bitching as we're getting this time around.

And remember that nobody's forcing you guys to play by the Smogon's ruleset. ;)