Salamence Testing: A Feasible Proposition?

[blasphemy1]

Okay Salamence is definitely one of the best attackers in the game, but it is by no means uncounterable nor does it sweep the majority of teams. It really isn't fair to compare it to Garchomp, but he is the only comparable Uber, since Rayquaza is 10x better at everything, except for its rather random speed tier (which doesn't really matter since he has access to Extremespeed).

Anyways, Salamence rarely gets an opportunity to switchin and wreck havoc. With Stealth Rock, Choice Scarf Heatran 2HKOs with Fire Blast, SpecsJolt OHKOs with Thunderbolt, Stealth Rock eats 25% of its health, Lucario can OHKO with a +1 Extremespeed, not to mention its lack of immunity to Thunder Wave and sandstorm hampers its sweeping abilities. Things like Cresselia can counter it almost every time, paralyzing it, setting up Reflect, or Ice Beaming it to hell. Shit, Celebi can switchin after a DD, eat ~73% or so, then paralyze it and 2HKO with HP Ice, or allow a slower pokemon to deal with it. I think the fairly obvious case is Scizor OHKOing after SR + LO, although this can be mitigated by having a Magnezone in the wakes...

Overall, yes, Salamence is certainly an offensive threat, but even with Intimidate it struggles to switch into Close Combats when it is losing over half its health. Once it hurts itself from Life Orb enough, you are ensured a kill with an Ice Sharder since they don't want to die from Stealth Rock.

@Misa: How does Salamence blow a gaping hole into your team? It must start Outraging against any bulk levitator / flyer who isn't weak to Fire Blast (Flygon, Cresselia, Gyarados, Zapdos, etc.) as well as pokemon who don't mind Fire Blast, although weak to it (Celebi, Bronzong). Once they have commenced Outraging, you send in an Ice Sharder or CB Scizor, (one or both of which should be on every team anyways with the prevalence of dragons in OU). Of course, Flygon, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Celebi won't enjoy Draco Meteors, but it is pretty easy to figure out a pokemon's set, and if Gyarados dies then you know you are either dealing with a Specs or LO variant, most of which can be handled by Blissey, who can paralyze Salamence or Ice Beam it before it 2HKOs with the second Outrage. You should only lose 1 pokemon, and thats if you mispredict.

 

[Relictivity]

Okay Salamence is definitely one of the best attackers in the game, but it is by no means uncounterable nor does it sweep the majority of teams. It really isn't fair to compare it to Garchomp, but he is the only comparable Uber, since Rayquaza is 10x better at everything, except for its rather random speed tier (which doesn't really matter since he has access to Extremespeed).

Anyways, Salamence rarely gets an opportunity to switchin and wreck havoc. With Stealth Rock, Choice Scarf Heatran 2HKOs with Fire Blast and is OHKOd with Earthquake, SpecsJolt OHKOs with Thunderbolt give me the calcs please, Stealth Rock eats 25% of its health so what if it kills the things that come in, Lucario can OHKO with a +1 Extremespeed it would have to be holding a choice item, and show me the calcs, not to mention its lack of immunity to Thunder Wave DD, good luck sacraficing a pokemon to paralyze it and sandstorm hampers its sweeping abilities it also hampers it's counters. Things like Cresselia can counter it almost every time, paralyzing it, setting up Reflect, or Ice Beaming it to hell I just proved that wrong, view 2 or 3 posts down. Shit, Celebi can switchin after a DD, eat ~73% or so, then paralyze it and 2HKO with HP Ice Celebi is not faster than a DDd Salamence, again your sacraficing a pokemon, or allow a slower pokemon to deal with it example please. I think the fairly obvious case is Scizor OHKOing after SR + LO, show me the calcs, again you will also lose a pokemon although this can be mitigated by having a Magnezone in the wakes...

Overall, yes, Salamence is certainly an offensive threat, but even with Intimidate it struggles to switch into Close Combats it doesn't struggle switching in to a pokemon that will switch and is currently healing or what not when it is losing over half its health. Once it hurts itself from Life Orb Yache, see other posts enough, you are ensured a kill with an Ice Sharder since they don't want to die from Stealth Rock.

@Misa: How does Salamence blow a gaping hole into your team? It must start Outraging against any bulk levitator / flyer who isn't weak to Fire Blast (Flygon, Cresselia, Gyarados, Zapdos, etc.) as well as pokemon who don't mind Fire Blast, although weak to it (Celebi, Bronzong). Once they have commenced Outraging, you send in an Ice Sharder or CB Scizor, (one or both of which should be on every team anyways with the prevalence of dragons in OU). Of course, Flygon, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Celebi won't enjoy Draco Meteors, but it is pretty easy to figure out a pokemon's set, and if Gyarados dies then you know you are either dealing with a Specs or LO variant, most of which can be handled by Blissey, who can paralyze Salamence or Ice Beam it before it 2HKOs with the second Outrage. You should only lose 1 pokemon, and thats if you mispredict.

Comments in Bold

Miza - yeah, that is the only counter I could think of. It has a 16% chance of failing with Hypnosis's new accuracy. But if you don't have it, gg to one pokemon+.

 

[Misa]

@Misa: How does Salamence blow a gaping hole into your team?

It must start Outraging against any bulk levitator / flyer who isn't weak to Fire Blast (Flygon, Cresselia, Gyarados, Zapdos, etc.) as well as pokemon who don't mind Fire Blast, although weak to it (Celebi, Bronzong).

Once they have commenced Outraging, you send in an Ice Sharder or CB Scizor, (one or both of which should be on every team anyways with the prevalence of dragons in OU). Of course, Flygon, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Celebi won't enjoy Draco Meteors, but it is pretty easy to figure out a
pokemon's set, and if Gyarados dies then you know you are either dealing with a Specs or LO variant. The counters that you listed all fail to choice banded DCs or outrages. Certainly none of them can switch into a CB set either, because all of the moves in salamence's arsenal can 2HKO the pokemon that you mentioned.

If you try and send in bullet punch scizor to a salamence, chances are that you'll probably be eating a fire blast. So far, the only thing that is able to OHKO mence without receiving a huge amount of damage in return, is mamoswine.

most of which can be handled by Blissey, who can paralyze Salamence or Ice Beam it before it 2HKOs with the second Outrage. You should only lose 1 pokemon, and thats if you mispredict. If you're trying to deal with a life orbed variant, know that a life orbed dragon claw can 2HKO if you don't carry bold-natured/max defence. Choice banded dragon claws are nightmares for blissey if she accidently switches in thinking that it's a LO or specs set.

responses in red.

 

[Relictivity]

Miza, I think later on, maybe tomorrow, I'll do the damage calcs for Mamoswine versus Yache-Mence. Do you know what Mamoswines usually run? I've never used him before.

 

[Misa]

Miza, I think later on, maybe tomorrow, I'll do the damage calcs for Mamoswine versus Yache-Mence. Do you know what Mamoswines usually run? I've never used him before.

mamoswines usually run either choice band, or focus sash so they can set up stealth rocks.

I'll get the damage calculations here now:

591 Atk vs 196 Def & 332 HP (40 Base Power): 260 - 308 (78.31% - 92.77%)

As you can see, a 6 hp / 0 def Salamence takes from 78-93% in damage from an adamant-choice banded ice shard from mamo. God bless if steath rock is in the field.

Here's a damage calculation for scizor's LO bullet punch to a 6 hp / 0 def salamence:

(394 Atk vs 196 Def & 332 HP (60 Base Power): 169 - 199 (50.90% - 59.94%)

While both scizor and mamo's priority attacks can both 2HKO salamence, salamence has a chance attack back scizor with something like fire blast (assuming salamence is in 75% health or above), because salamence cannot be OHKOed by bullet punch even if stealth rock is up, while Mamo's ice shard unfortunately can.

The biggest threat to salamence at the moment is Mamoswine, hands down.

 

[Relictivity]

OK, so the things that can stop Salamence then so far are...
-CB Mamoswine
-Hypnosis Bronzong

I'll look for others. I'll also check how many Outrages Mamoswine can survive in case it isn't banded.

EDIT:

OK, here it is...
Max Defense/HP Mamoswine can survive a DD Outrage.
252 Attack/252 Speed/4 Defense Mamoswine cannot, so it has to be banded.
Suprisingly, all Mamoswines can survive a Fire Blast even with Stealth Rock down.

Weavile if Choice Banded has about a 50/50 shot of destroying Salamence that has landed on Stealth Rock. (note it won't be faster than Salamence after a DD, so it has to use Ice Shard.

Lapras can come in after a kill and Ice Shard it twice after surviving a DD outrage.

 

[Misa]

I'll look for others. I'll also check how many Outrages Mamoswine can survive in case it isn't banded.

Mamoswine get 2HKOd by salamence's outrage if it isn't CB'd, doing about 74-87% in damage. Mamoswine isn't switching into anything that salamence is going to throw out (well, maybe dragon dance).

 

[Relictivity]

Yeah, Mamoswine is mainly going to be used as a revenge killer.

Our counter list: (for Min HP, Min Defense Salamence)

Switching in Counter
-Hypnosis Bronzong (Successfulness 60% if coming in 84% if revenge hypnosising)

Revenge Killers
-CB Mamoswine Max Attack + Attack Nature
-Mamoswine Max HP, Max Defense +Attack Nature
-CB Weavile (slightly less than 50% successful)
-CB Lapras with 176 Attack, Max Defense, and 80 HP EVs

 

[Heartgold]

People really need to get the counter arguments out of their minds, most top OU pokemon don't have 100% counters. Checks are far better and predicting moves. Mence may not have 100% counters, but I rarely ever see it ripping through a whole team. It's stop by certain stuff, SR nice 25% chunk off, first attacking moves like iceshard, bulletpunch and there's revenge killers like heatran who can switch to anything excpet Earthquake and others scarfers can revenge kill it, getting locked in outrage isn't too helpful either, asking to get revenged killed easily. It doesn't have defences like Garchomp to withstand strong attacks for too long.

 

[Relictivity]

People really need to get the counter arguments out of their minds, most top OU pokemon don't have 100% counters. Checks are far better and predicting moves. Mence may not have 100% counters, but I rarely ever see it ripping through a whole team. That's because this set is new. It's stop by certain stuff, SR nice 25% chunk off,If you cannot attack it, so what. first attacking moves like iceshard, bulletpunch and there's revenge killers the only things that can revenge kill are on the list on the previous post. And neither Scizor nor Lucario make the cutoff. like heatran who can switch to anything excpet Earthquake and others scarfers can revenge kill it, Yes, Earthquake. Not to mention it's slower after a Dragon Dance. getting locked in outrage isn't too helpful either, Choice is arguably worse. asking to get revenged killed easily again listed on the previous post. It doesn't have defences like Garchomp to withstand strong attacks for too long. Sure it does. Enough that Scizor's Bullet Punch can't KO even with Stealth Rock.

Comments in Bold.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Also, a response to Darkerai

Oh joy :(.

Salamence can utilize his Special Attack more than Garchomp could. That makes it a more versatile attcker.

But, for what purpose does Salamence even use its Special Attack for? Breaking though unexpecting walls and Pokemon who tend to carry a bit on the defensive side a bit more than thier Special side. Garchomp basically did the same thing with ChainChomp or even SDChomp. Thier purposes were essentially the same and neither were getting past Blissey running a full Special set.

Just because it has a higher Special Attack doesn't make it more versatile. It just overkills what needed to be KO'd :s.

The extra Special Attack on Salamence helps out with Bronzong.

Last time I checked, a Life Orb Fire Blast from a Jolly Garchomp 2HKO'd Bronzong... or am I missing something? YacheChomp just needed a neutral nature or some Special Attack investment :s. I don't see how Salamence poses more of a threat to it >_>.

And Toxic Spikes are important. Garchomp cannot continue sweeping with +2 attack if it is taking 35% damage and growing per turn.

Initially, the poison starts out at 1/16 and grows each turn, considering that there are two layers of TS up, if not, it's a constant 1/8 of its HP gone. What's stopping Garchomp from switching when the poision is getting rough or, KOing something before it dies to poison? (we ALL know that a +2 Earthquake/Outrage is taking something down)

In other words, it limited it's sweeping time length. Because a pokemon that is badly poisoned cannot take the time to set up Swords Dance usually

What? Garchomp really didn't need much to setup a Swords Dance and KO something, with such defenses and its already great Speed, it didn't mind some poison. Also, I'd keep it noted how many turns it takes for the poison damage to build up to the point where Garchomp would be dying (around 5, really :s). Switching out or, having a back up sweeper for later wouldn't really hurt Garchomp much. In fact, the Supporting Uber Characteristic states that a Pokemon is Uber if it can allow for other Pokemon to sweep without any trouble. Didn't Garchomp pretty much do that and rape the metagame at the same time?

Take Deoxys-A for example. Sure, you'll lose Deoxys-A to a weak attack like a Kakuna's Bug Bite, however, it would've taken out enough Pokemon to allow for something like Lucario to sweep much easier without any hassle on Deoxys or Lucario itself. Garchomp Swords Dance up, take out a few (if not all) threats, die and just bring in another Pokemon to finish the game with; doesn't sound like either Pokemon is having trouble sweeping, does it? Garchomp could even utalize a Choice Scarf to revenge kill threats that expect a Swords Dance or even the Substitute and ChainChomp sets.

Now, let's compare the two statuses that allow for these two to differ so much: Paralysis and Poison.

Paralysis hinders a Pokemon's sweeping capabilitites immediately, keeping it from utalizing Speed boosting moves and its own Speed in general.

Poison slowly hinders a Pokemon's sweeping capabilities, lowing their HP, but, not their other stats.

Which would you rather have on Salamence, Poison or, Paralysis since seemingly, Paralysis isn't that hard to get by on a sweeper rather than Poison. Or... do you want to try out Burns?

Garchomp can't even be comparaed to Salamence outside of Outrage imo.

Decided to look at this myself:

591 Atk vs 196 Def & 332 HP (40 Base Power): 260 - 308 (78.31% - 92.77%)

That's very incorrect. I think you forgot to include STAB and the 4x Super Effective bonus because I'm getting 156%-185%.

Even after Intimidate, it OHKOs >.>

Here's a damage calculation for scizor's LO bullet punch to a 6 hp / 0 def salamence:

(394 Atk vs 196 Def & 332 HP (60 Base Power): 169 - 199 (50.90% - 59.94%)

Also wrong, Scizor doesn't even manage 50% without a Choice Band or a Life Orb >.>.

CB Weavile OHKO's too!

EDIT: That whole, "omg, this doesn't have a 100% counter, make it Uber!" thing isn't viable reasoning at all. Scizor and Lucario don't have solid, 100% counters since you can assume that Lucario's going to be using Close Combat the turn Heatran switches in or, Scizor's going to be using X-Scissor as Celebi switches in. At any rate, neither you nor misa are making a viable argument about Salamence at all. All you two are doing is listing what stops this 100% and what can kill this 100%. That reasoning can be applied to any Uber :/. Take... Wobbufett, Dark, Bug and Ghost moves, Taunt and Toxic can potentially stop it, does that mean that we bring it back down to OU? Then you take Lucario, it can OHKO nearly any wall with Close Combat after Stealth Rock and its coverage isn't really limted to Normal/Steel + Fighting. The last slot can be taken care of by another Pokemon and used for what stops Lucario best. With Salamence, you don't have definate counters, but, you do have great switch ins to take unboosted attacks since I highly doubt that Salamence is going to have up two Dragon Dance by the time something switches in on it. Gyarados, Zapdos, Forertress, Bronzong, Scizor, Metagross, Heatran and Cresselia can all be classified as "counters". After a Dragon Dance Zapdos and Heatran can be omitted as counters since Salamence can outspeed and OHKO them both. Also, don't say Yache :s. YacheMence is not only uncommon, but, it takes that Life Orb's power away, which is what's really keeping Salamence a strong threat.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

lol i've only read page 3 but...

can we please not bring any ubers into this lol....as well as 'paralyze it' arguments. otherwise, we can just use that logic, and the 2 things i just mentioned and say 'well darkrai and mewtwo and shit are pretty shitty if you can paralyze it and then revenge kill it after it takes down one poke' yeah no.

also ps, forretress, metagross, heatran, and gyarados are -not- counters.

pps. arguing that forcing salamence to outrage is not valid. 1, salamence can use dragon claw. 2, more idiots will just bring up 'garchomp used outrage' etc

 

[Darkerkrai]

can we please not bring any ubers into this lol....

Garchomp was included in the op, so, I used another uber as a seperate example to prove what I was saying >_>. Just ignore the snip about Deoxys-A and read everything else (seeing as how Garchomp was already introduced in this thread).

as well as 'paralyze it' arguments. otherwise, we can just use that logic, and the 2 things i just mentioned and say 'well darkrai and mewtwo and shit are pretty shitty if you can paralyze it and then revenge kill it after it takes down one poke' yeah no.

Actually, the whole paralysis argument was only to prove how much more Salamence's sweeping ability is hindered when compared to garchomp. No one ever said that it sucked when it was paralyzed O_O.

also ps, forretress, metagross, heatran, and gyarados are -not- counters.

Hence why I used the quotes around counters? They weren't 100%, just how everyone can say that Heatran "counters" scizor, despite Superpower.

pps. arguing that forcing salamence to outrage is not valid. 1, salamence can use dragon claw.

Actually, Salamence bearly runs Dragon Claw, anymore, going by both statistics and what I've already seen this and last month. Only on BulkyDDMence, I've seen Dragon Claw (which still uses Outrage >_>). This does back to those "counters" I mentioned earlier, depending on the set, lack and gain of power that Salamence has and their overall defenses, they can switch in and pose a threat to Salamence.

Salamence running Dragon Claw is really as common as Kingdra running Return on the dd set.

2, more idiots will just bring up 'garchomp used outrage' etc

Because it was already mentioned in the op and how everyone who's on the "give it a test" side only has Garchomp to compare Salamence to?

 

[Broth3r]

Look, I think we 1st gotta see some calcs ON THE MOST USED SALA VERSION.
That is, according to January's stats, Naive (Adamant was more used, but the 3rd most used physical attack is Brick Break, and it's only 9th overall)252/252 LO Sala with (in order of preference) EQ, Outrage, Fire Blast and DD.

 

[Relictivity]

Garchomp was included in the op, so, I used another uber as a seperate example to prove what I was saying >_>. Just ignore the snip about Deoxys-A and read everything else (seeing as how Garchomp was already introduced in this thread).


Actually, the whole paralysis argument was only to prove how much more Salamence's sweeping ability is hindered when compared to garchomp. Are you willing to SACRIFICE one of your pokemon to cripple Salamence, and still have it at approximateley 100 Base Speed (Because of Dragon Dance)No one ever said that it sucked when it was paralyzed O_O.


Hence why I used the quotes around counters? They weren't 100%, just how everyone can say that Heatran "counters" scizor, despite Superpower. But at least you can EV Heatran to survive occasional Superpowers. Did you check my calcs for what could possibly come in and stop Salamence. Did you check my list of revenge killers?


Actually, Salamence bearly runs Dragon Claw, anymore I agree, it is rare, going by both statistics and what I've already seen this and last month. Only on BulkyDDMence, I've seen Dragon Claw (which still uses Outrage >_>). This does back to those "counters" I mentioned earlier, depending on the set, lack and gain of power that Salamence has and their overall defenses, they can switch in and pose a threat to Salamence.

Salamence running Dragon Claw is really as common as Kingdra running Return on the dd set.


Because it was already mentioned in the op and how everyone who's on the "give it a test" side only has Garchomp to compare Salamence to? Yes, that is the only pokemon to compare it to besides Dragonite. But don't go comparing it to Rayquasea like people earlier please :)

Comments in Bold.

Note that despite the problems of going into Outrage, it destroys what we used to consider it's "counters" and leaves revenge killing as the only option.

Also, I disagree that the most used Salamence version is what matters. I think it is the optimal effecient set that matters.

And also, anyone running a fully Special Salamence in this enviroment is majorly behind the times Darkerai. And Bronzong... We are assuming it is running Earthquake over Fire Blast. Therefore, a 3HKO with a DD Outrage. Skarmory is 2HKOd by Draco Meteor, even with the Special Attack Drop.

Also, Darkerai, the Salamence in the calc runs Yache.

 

[Pyromanic]

Cressalia counters 98% according to the statistics. The statistics don't lie.
319 Atk vs 222 Def & 420 HP(210 Base Power) 216-255 (51.43%-60.71%)
Hippowdon counters 89%, QED. CB Scizor KOS after SR.

 

[Relictivity]

Cressalia counters 98% according to the statistics. The statistics don't lie.
319 Atk vs 222 Def & 420 HP(210 Base Power) 216-255 (51.43%-60.71%)
Hippowdon counters 89%, QED. CB Scizor KOS after SR.

You've done your calculations wrong. For this Salamence...
Salamence w/Yache Berry
252 Attack EVs, 252 Special Attack EVs, 4 Speed, + Attack, -Speed (because you need everything else)
-Outrage
-Draco Meteor
-Dragon Dance
-Eathquake

Yeah, it destroys Cressalia as it DDs up on the switch-in. See the calcs for Outrage.

For Max Possible Attack Salamence, Max EVd Special Attack, Yache Berry, NO LIFE ORB, This is with 1 Dragon Dance Boost
Results
Damage Results OHKO & 2HKO Odds
Min: Avg: Max: Normal: Leftovers: Sandstorm: Stealth Rock: SR + Leftovers
Raw Damage: 211 228 249
OHKO: 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
Percentages: 47.52% 51.35% 56.08%
2HKO: 78.90% 20.84% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%

Check it out yourself. And here is Max Special Attack Cressalia's Ice Beam vs. Yache-Mence with non-EVd Special Defense. Non Item Boosted because of Leftovers.

Results
Damage Results OHKO & 2HKO Odds
Min: Avg: Max: Normal: Leftovers: Sandstorm: Stealth Rock: SR + Leftovers
Raw Damage: 192 206 226
OHKO: 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
Percentages: 58.01% 62.24% 68.28%
2HKO: 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%

And CB Scizor doesn't OHKO after Stealth Rock. Someone else did the calcs, but I will double check them.

And for Hippowdon, LOL Outrage. Versus Max HP Max Defense Hippowdon after a DD.

Results
Damage Results OHKO & 2HKO Odds
Min: Avg: Max: Normal: Leftovers: Sandstorm: Stealth Rock: SR + Leftovers
Raw Damage: 213 231 252
OHKO: 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
Percentages: 50.71% 55.00% 60.00%
2HKO: 100.00% 83.83% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%

Here are the results for CB Scizor BP. Versus Min HP Min Defense Salamence, NON-INTIMIDATED.

Results
Damage Results OHKO & 2HKO Odds
Min: Avg: Max: Normal: Leftovers: Sandstorm: Stealth Rock: SR + Leftovers
Raw Damage: 130 141 154
OHKO: 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
Percentages: 39.27% 42.60% 46.53%
2HKO: 0.00% 0.00% 21.50% 21.50% 0.00%

SO CRESSALIA, SCIZOR, AND HIPPOWDON CANNOT SERVE AS COUNTERS!!!

 

[Relictivity]

What?

Yep. That's Right. Try the Calculations yourself. I was going to try them with Draco Meteor afterwards, but I thought this was much, much better.
I was suprised too.

 

[wildfire393]

I think a few things need to be said about Salamence:

The best way to determine if Salamence is worthy of a Ban is to compare him to something that recently WAS banned: Garchomp. There are a lot of similarities, in terms of offensive power, general stats, movepool, weaknesses, etc.

Pro Garchomp:
Garchomp has arguably better typing. Ground/Dragon loses out on a couple of resistances - Water, Grass X2, Fighting, and Ground (immune). However, ground typing has some MAJOR benefits: Immunity to electricity (and thus Thunder Wave), Immunity to Sandstorm, and resistance to Rock (rather than weakness). These allow it to come in on predicted Electric moves for free, and greatly reduce residual damage. Yes, Salamence is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but the usage of Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are much greater than those of Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and the former take much less time to set up (and have a larger impact). Hippowdon can set up both Sandstorm and Stealth Rock in one turn. Then, upon switching in, Salamence will take 25% to Stealth Rock and 6.25% to Sandstorm. Upon Dragon Dancing once, Salamence will take another 6.25%. He hasn't even attacked once, and already he's down by over a third of his life. Compare this to Garchomp switching in under those conditions - he will take 6.25% from the Rocks and nothing to Sandstorm (while getting an evasion bonus, which I will cover in a minute), and then take nothing the turn he sets up. What does this all mean? Well, if the opponent switches in a counter as the Dragon in question sets up, he's likely to be forced out. Assuming that counter is then dealt with, the Dragon can come back in, set up, and sweep. Right? Well, Garchomp can. He'll only have taken 12.5% residually. However, two switch-ins plus 4 turns of Sandstorm means Salamence has taken a full 75% of his health. Even if the opponent has no counters left, Salamence only gets two turns of attacking with Life Orb and Sandstorm, and he's dead. And that is assuming that Salamence switches in to an attack that does not deal damage both times.
The second thing to take in to account is ability. Intimidate is a damned good ability. One could argue that it is amongst the top abilities in the game (after a few things like Wonder Guard, Magic Guard, No Guard, maybe the 4 Perma-Weather abilities, and MAYBE the immunity abilities (levitate/flash fire/water absorb/volt absorb/motor drive)). However, it is most useful when it can be used multiple times. As just demonstrated, under common battle conditions, Salamence has a hard time switching in. Yes, his ability eases that somewhat, by allowing him to take less damage off a predicted physical attack on the switch-in, but that's often all it does. Ususally, the opponent will switch to a counter the turn after 'Mence switches in, negating Intimidate's use. Now, compare to Sand Veil. The beauty of Sand Veil lies in its synergy with Yache Berry. Why does this make Yache berry more broken on Garchomp than on Mence? Mence can run it too! The difference is Sand Veil. Under Sandstorm, moves have only 80% accuracy against Garchomp. If he can make the most common move to OHKO him (an Ice move) instead a 2HKO, that means the opponent needs to land two hits in order to finish him. And most non-Ice attacks are only 2HKOs on him to begin with. The chance of landing two 80% accuracy moves is only 64%. That means greater than 35% of the time, these "counters" will not be able to KO Garchomp. And even that assumes that they survive the first hit that Garchomp delivers.
Which brings us to the third point: Dragon Dance versus Swords Dance. Dragon Dance is an immensely powerful move - one use of it provides the bonuses of both Choice Scarf and Choice Band. However, Swords Dance provides a much greater attack boost. And given that 'Chomp has a 102 speed anyways, he will outspeed anything non-scarfed with speed less than or equal to 100, which is most pokemon on most teams. Admittedly, 'Mence's ability to outspeed things that are SCARFED with speed up to 100 is pretty impressive, but he pays for it with a reduction in power.
Add this to our fourth point, which is STAB earthquake, and Garchomp seems like much more of a monster. Salamence doesn't even get an alternate STAB, and most are forced to run Earthquake for coverage anyways. Adamant Life Orb Salamence's +1 EQ fails to OHKO, for example, Max+ HP/Def Metagross, while Garchomp's +2 EQ clearly does. Ditto against Max HP/Min Def Scizor (though either Pokemon in this case could run a fire move that would guarnteed OHKO). Garchomp's +2 and STAB EQ allows it to take on some other threats that Salamence can't as easily, and it can do so without becoming locked in to an Outrage that leaves him open for Ice Sharding.

 

[Relictivity]

I think a few things need to be said about Salamence:

The best way to determine if Salamence is worthy of a Ban is to compare him to something that recently WAS banned: Garchomp. There are a lot of similarities, in terms of offensive power, general stats, movepool, weaknesses, etc. I agree, let's compare it to Garchomp. However, let's also look to see what can stop it.

Pro Garchomp:
Garchomp has arguably better typing. Ground/Dragon loses out on a couple of resistances - Water, Grass X2, Fighting, and Ground (immune). However, ground typing has some MAJOR benefits: Immunity to electricity (and thus Thunder Wave) Solved by Dragon Dance, Immunity to Sandstorm Exactly how common is Sandstorm up in a battle? I thought it was about 1 in 4, right?, and resistance to Rock (rather than weakness). These allow it to come in on predicted Electric moves for free, and greatly reduce residual damage. Yes, Salamence is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but the usage of Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are much greater than those of Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and the former take much less time to set up (and have a larger impact). Hippowdon can set up both Sandstorm and Stealth Rock in one turn. Then, upon switching in, Salamence will take 25% to Stealth Rock and 6.25% to Sandstorm. Upon Dragon Dancing once, Salamence will take another 6.25%. He hasn't even attacked once, and already he's down by over a third of his life. Compare this to Garchomp switching in under those conditions - he will take 6.25% from the Rocks and nothing to Sandstorm (while getting an evasion bonus, which I will cover in a minute), and then take nothing the turn he sets up. What does this all mean? Well, if the opponent switches in a counter as the Dragon in question sets up, he's likely to be forced out. Assuming that counter is then dealt with, the Dragon can come back in, set up, and sweep. Right? Well, Garchomp can. He'll only have taken 12.5% residually. However, two switch-ins plus 4 turns of Sandstorm means Salamence has taken a full 75% of his health. Garchomp does not have the speed of DD-Mence though. Paralysis means sacrificing a pokemon. Neither Dragon has a problem with Weavile (for Mence, DD, for Chompy, Sandstorm) Even if the opponent has no counters left, Salamence only gets two turns of attacking with Life Orb NO LIFE ORB ANYONE, LIFE ORB < YACHE BERRY!!!!! and Sandstorm, and he's dead. And that is assuming that Salamence switches in to an attack that does not deal damage both times.
The second thing to take in to account is ability. Intimidate is a damned good ability. One could argue that it is amongst the top abilities in the game (after a few things like Wonder Guard, Magic Guard, No Guard, maybe the 4 Perma-Weather abilities, and MAYBE the immunity abilities (levitate/flash fire/water absorb/volt absorb/motor drive)). However, it is most useful when it can be used multiple times. My set only uses Intimidate to force out, the calcs don't have Intimidate in them. As just demonstrated, under common battle conditions, Salamence has a hard time switching in. Yes, his ability eases that somewhat, by allowing him to take less damage off a predicted physical attack on the switch-in, but that's often all it does. Ususally, the opponent will switch to a counter the turn after 'Mence switches in, negating Intimidate's use. Now, compare to Sand Veil. The beauty of Sand Veil lies in its synergy with Yache Berry. Why does this make Yache berry more broken on Garchomp than on Mence? Mence can run it too! And arguably overcome it better because it requires Ice Shard to beat it's speed because of Dragon Dance. The difference is Sand Veil. Under Sandstorm, moves have only 80% accuracy against Garchomp. If he can make the most common move to OHKO him (an Ice move) instead a 2HKO, that means the opponent needs to land two hits in order to finish him. Same with Mence. And most non-Ice attacks are only 2HKOs on him to begin with. The chance of landing two 80% accuracy moves is only 64%. That means greater than 35% of the time, these "counters" will not be able to KO Garchomp. Did you look at the new exclusive counter list for Mence? Cressalia, Hippowdon, Scizor, and others are not there. And even that assumes that they survive the first hit that Garchomp delivers. Salamence will almost always be dealing the first hit.
Which brings us to the third point: Dragon Dance versus Swords Dance. Dragon Dance is an immensely powerful move - one use of it provides the bonuses of both Choice Scarf and Choice Band. However, Swords Dance provides a much greater attack boost. And given that 'Chomp has a 102 speed anyways, he will outspeed anything non-scarfed with speed less than or equal to 100, which is most pokemon on most teams. Admittedly, 'Mence's ability to outspeed things that are SCARFED with speed up to 100 is pretty impressive, but he pays for it with a reduction in power. Which hardly matters in the KO numbers, see the Damage Calcs.
Add this to our fourth point, which is STAB earthquake Earthquake is only on Mence for Tran and to stop it from getting locked on Outrage some of the time, and Garchomp seems like much more of a monster. Salamence doesn't even get an alternate STAB, and most are forced to run Earthquake for coverage anyways. Adamant Life Orb Salamence's +1 EQ fails to OHKO, for example, Max+ HP/Def Metagross, while Garchomp's +2 EQ clearly does. A 2HKO is good enough though. Ditto against Max HP/Min Def Scizor (though either Pokemon in this case could run a fire move that would guarnteed OHKO). Garchomp's +2 and STAB EQ allows it to take on some other threats that Salamence can't as easily, and it can do so without becoming locked in to an Outrage that leaves him open for Ice Sharding. And only 3 Ice Sharders make the cut!

Comments in Bold. Sorry if it sounds rude. I'm just irritated by people suggesting Life Orb and not reading the Calcs we posted for them.

 

[Misa]

Look, I think we 1st gotta see some calcs ON THE MOST USED SALA VERSION.
That is, according to January's stats, Naive (Adamant was more used, but the 3rd most used physical attack is Brick Break, and it's only 9th overall)252/252 LO Sala with (in order of preference) EQ, Outrage, Fire Blast and DD.

all right I'll have see that.

@Darkenrai: My calculations were based with both yache berry and life orb in mind. Since yache berry cuts salamence's damage from ice attack, it shouldn't OHKO (unlike what you responded).

Also, scizor usually carries choice band or life orb nowdays, so they both 2HKO salamence, but it's not enough to OHKO, even with stealth rock attached.

 

[Pyromanic]

Solved by Dragon Dance How? it means you have to 3 dances to outspeed base 100s. Garchomp does that automatically. Exactly how common is Sandstorm up in a battle? I thought it was about 1 in 4, right? SS is in about 40% of battlesGarchomp does not have the speed of DD-Mence though. But Garchomp can hit with +2 atk AND outspeed base 100s. Paralysis means sacrificing a pokemon. Sacrifice a pokemon to effectively kill it? Sounds good. NO LIFE ORB ANYONE, LIFE ORB < YACHE BERRY!!!!! OH RLY?
| Salamence | Item | Life Orb | 52.3 |
| Salamence | Item | Leftovers | 10.6 |
| Salamence | Item | Other (6) | < 8.3
WHERE IS THE YACHE BERRY HERE? IT IS BEING USED LESS THAN THE LIFE ORB. LIFE ORB> YACHE BERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My set only uses Intimidate to force out, the calcs don't have Intimidate in them. That is because it is a counter Same with Mence. No, scarflass out-speeds and OHKOs after SR EVEN ON YACHE MENCE with rocks up and has and 87% chance w/o rocks. Did you look at the new exclusive counter list for Mence? Cressalia, Hippowdon, Scizor, and others are not there. They should be, just because you can create a gimmicky set that is never used and walled the shit out of by bulky latias. Salamence will almost always be dealing the first hit. 100 base speed is slow.
Which hardly matters in the KO numbers, see the Damage Calcs. Garchomp can 2HKO every thing in the game except +252/252 lugia after a SD. Salamence can't after a DD. A 2HKO is good enough though. MM OHKOs you.

 

[wildfire393]

Comments in Bold. Sorry if it sounds rude. I'm just irritated by people suggesting Life Orb and not reading the Calcs we posted for them.

Well, I assumed Life Orb because Adamant Salamence w/ Life Orb and 1 Dragon Dance had similar offensive power to Jolly Garchomp w/ Yache Berry and 1 Swords Dance. Salamence without the bonus power of Life Orb misses out on a lot of OHKOs that Garchomp gets. Example: 252Def/0HP Vaporeon. Life Orb Mence will do over 100%, as will YacheChomp, but YacheMence with 1 dance falls short. And yes, that can make a difference. SpecsVaporeon is one that runs 252 Def/0 HP, and it will be able to OHKO with a Ice Beam through YacheBerry (min 330% without berry).

@-__-: My calculations show Jolly YacheChomp dealing a minimum of 56% with a swords-danced Outrage to 252/252+ Lugia.

 

[Relictivity]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Relictivity
Solved by Dragon Dance How? it means you have to 3 dances to outspeed base 100s. Garchomp does that automatically. Sorry, I forgot it's 25%, not 50%. Exactly how common is Sandstorm up in a battle? I thought it was about 1 in 4, right? SS is in about 40% of battlesGarchomp does not have the speed of DD-Mence though. But Garchomp can hit with +2 atk AND outspeed base 100s. But it can't outspeed Weavile and must instead rely on Sand Stream HAX. Paralysis means sacrificing a pokemon. Sacrifice a pokemon to effectively kill it? Sounds good. Yeah, sacrifice a pokemon... your wall. And, there is no guarantee it will stop it completely either. The next pokemon has to eat 1 Outrage for sure. NO LIFE ORB ANYONE, LIFE ORB < YACHE BERRY!!!!! OH RLY?
| Salamence | Item | Life Orb | 52.3 |
| Salamence | Item | Leftovers | 10.6 |
| Salamence | Item | Other (6) | < 8.3
WHERE IS THE YACHE BERRY HERE? IT IS BEING USED LESS THAN THE LIFE ORB. LIFE ORB> YACHE BERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said the optimal and efficient set, not the one most used. This set has never been tried before. Therefore, no Yache Berry My set only uses Intimidate to force out, the calcs don't have Intimidate in them. That is because it is a counter No, Intimidate forces weak attackers to switch, and allows you to DD in the meantime. Same with Mence. No, scarflass out-speeds and OHKOs after SR EVEN ON YACHE MENCE with rocks up and has and 87% chance w/o rocks. I will double check that. Also note that Froslass hates Sandstorm and the OU enviroment in general. Did you look at the new exclusive counter list for Mence? Cressalia, Hippowdon, Scizor, and others are not there. They should be, just because you can create a gimmicky set that is never used and walled the shit out of by bulky latias. How is DDd Outrage walled by Latias? Tell me what I am missing?Salamence will almost always be dealing the first hit. 100 base speed is slow. Did you just say slow. DD and it's 150. Do you still say slow?
Which hardly matters in the KO numbers, see the Damage Calcs. Garchomp can 2HKO every thing in the game except +252/252 lugia after a SD. Salamence can't after a DD. Lugia and Garchomp are not currently in OU. And I believe Groudon has a good chance of surviving. I read something about it surviving a Belly Drum Passed by a Smeargle to a Medicham. A 2HKO is good enough though. MM OHKOs you. Again, I'm checking that.


@Wildfire 393 - True, it misses the power, but usually it does not need it. I'll check the Vaporeon. Please give me more examples though if you have any :).

 

[Pyromanic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Relictivity
Solved by Dragon Dance How? it means you have to 3 dances to outspeed base 100s. Garchomp does that automatically. Sorry, I forgot it's 25%, not 50%. Exactly how common is Sandstorm up in a battle? I thought it was about 1 in 4, right? SS is in about 40% of battlesGarchomp does not have the speed of DD-Mence though. But Garchomp can hit with +2 atk AND outspeed base 100s. But it can't outspeed Weavile and must instead rely on Sand Stream HAX. Or Yache berry.Paralysis means sacrificing a pokemon. Sacrifice a pokemon to effectively kill it? Sounds good. Yeah, sacrifice a pokemon... your wall. And, there is no guarantee it will stop it completely either. The next pokemon has to eat 1 Outrage for sure. Or outspeed and KO NO LIFE ORB ANYONE, LIFE ORB < YACHE BERRY!!!!! OH RLY?
| Salamence | Item | Life Orb | 52.3 |
| Salamence | Item | Leftovers | 10.6 |
| Salamence | Item | Other (6) | < 8.3
WHERE IS THE YACHE BERRY HERE? IT IS BEING USED LESS THAN THE LIFE ORB. LIFE ORB> YACHE BERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said the optimal and efficient set, not the one most used. This set has never been tried before. Therefore, no Yache Berry How do you know it is effective it it hasn't been tried? Lots of people have tried yachemence and concluded it isn't as good as yachchomp. My set only uses Intimidate to force out, the calcs don't have Intimidate in them. That is because it is a counter No, Intimidate forces weak attackers to switch, and allows you to DD in the meantime. What if it is a special attacker?Same with Mence. No, scarflass out-speeds and OHKOs after SR EVEN ON YACHE MENCE with rocks up and has and 87% chance w/o rocks. I will double check that. Also note that Froslass hates Sandstorm and the OU enviroment in general. True, but if Salamence is too much of a problem to your team you could always but it on. Did you look at the new exclusive counter list for Mence? Cressalia, Hippowdon, Scizor, and others are not there. They should be, just because you can create a gimmicky set that is never used and walled the shit out of by bulky latias. How is DDd Outrage walled by Latias? Tell me what I am missing? It out speeds and OHKOS mence with dragon pulse or draco meter. (It would be scarfed)Salamence will almost always be dealing the first hit. 100 base speed is slow. Did you just say slow. DD and it's 150. Do you still say slow?
Which hardly matters in the KO numbers, see the Damage Calcs. Garchomp can 2HKO every thing in the game except +252/252 lugia after a SD. Salamence can't after a DD. Lugia and Garchomp are not currently in OU. And I believe Groudon has a good chance of surviving. I read something about it surviving a Belly Drum Passed by a Smeargle to a Medicham. So?A 2HKO is good enough though. MM OHKOs you. Again, I'm checking that.

Responses in italics.