Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[cantab]

Doesn't need to use prediction? That's ridiculous. What if they Draco Meteor right into the hands of the opponent, as the opponent sends in their death fodder so that they can get in Bronzong to not take the full Fire Blast? What if the opponent sends in a scarfed heatran to absorb a Fire Blast? What if Blissey comes in on Draco Meteor and then they switch to a Levitator or Flier (e.g. Latias or Bronzong) to absorb the Earthquake? Why would they not have to use prediction? It isn't the beginning of the game every time you use theorymon. All Pokemon don't have 100% health and the chance to mess up once or twice. If the Salamence user mispredicts, it could cost him Salamence. It's hard to put into words, but I think you get the idea. If spamming Draco Meteor would make it easy to win with Salamence, then it would have been banned a long time ago, closer to when we first got him.

Yeah, I forgot about pivot switching when I posted before. That makes Salamence rather easier to deal with after all. (And I forgot about Blissey, who walls Draco Meteors for eternity).
I still hold that the Salamence user doesn't really need to bother predicting on their first attack - unless they know their opponent has Blissey, Bronzong, or something else that doesn't take a lot from Draco Meteor, I'd say just use it. But when it comes to the follow up, I'll admit that it's not as simple as EQ or Fire Blast whatever's in. By the switching you describe, Salamence is easily forced out.

As for the other things that can make as many OHKOs as Salamence - they're slower. I haven't checked the whole list, but I expect some of them could outspeed (perhaps Scarfed) and OHKO the other Pokemon. Very little outspeeds Salamence after it's DDed.

 

[Rody]

A pokemon should not be countered by prediction and 'playing around'
A pokemon should be countered by switching in something that can stop it dead in it tracks.
That is what keeps competitive battling fun imo and that's why I believe Salamence should be tested in suspect.

 

[Game Freak201]

A pokemon should not be countered by prediction and 'playing around'
A pokemon should be countered by switching in something that can stop it dead in it tracks.
That is what keeps competitive battling fun imo and that's why I believe Salamence should be tested in uber play.

Quotes like this are really getting on my nerves. Any decent DPP/HGSS player should know that the concept of counters have basically gone to the wayside ever since the release of DP. Now I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but stop using this argument for making Salamence a suspect. In addition, you don't ban a pokemon by testing it in uber play. Instead, we have something akin to the suspect test.

 

[Rody]

actually meant suspect >.> and tested for uber play but that's not the point.

what you're saying is wrong cause that argument only counts for Salamence, the rest of the poke's are perfectly counterable.
It's about having a choice. To have the choice to put a 100% counter for pokemon x in your team. You don't have this choice with Salamence.

Any decent DPP/HGSS player should know that the concept of counters have basically gone to the wayside ever since the release of DP.

Perhaps that's the reason why a shitload of players prefer advance over dp?
But this is not a discussion what is bad about d/p (cs, focus sash, priority moves etc.) and the concept of d/p play.
it's about if Salamence is ready for a suspect test.

 

[Game Freak201]

what you're saying is wrong cause that argument only counts for Salamence, the rest of the poke's are perfectly counterable.
It's about having a choice. To have the choice to put a 100% counter for pokemon x in your team. You don't have this choice with Salamence.
it's about if Salamence is ready for a suspect test.

I can say the same thing about Infernape. What is stopping it from using U-Turn on a predicted Latias/Starmie switch-in? What is stopping Tyranitar from using the steel resist berry and Fire Punch to lure in Scizor and kill it? Should it be Uber for the support characteristic since it paved the way for a NP Azelf sweep with little effort? Not even Heracross has a 100% counter being able to Facade Gliscor.

 

[Stylish Interval]

You make some valid points, but I think that everyone in this thread realizes what both of us are saying. That's why I want a suspect test, to determine exactly how Mence affects the metagame.

Ugh why must you reply in the my quote box! Adding quote tags isn't as hard as it looks. Highlight all and then hit the quote button :/ And I thought you wanted one because you thought it was Uber, not to see how it affected the metagame. I would be fine seeing how the Metagame shifts. If it shifts a lot, we know Mence affected it a lot. If it doesn't, we know Mence really didn't. I see that you are trying to remain neutral, but most of your debates seem to lead back to the "Mence is Uber" thoughts, rather than just shooting down irrelevant points, along with the fact every post you attack mostly has to do with how Mence is not Uber.

These combos are all well and good, but the defender has the inherent disadvantage because the Mence player knows that a well-built team will have a bulky steel or two, and can thus predict just as well as the defender can, if not better. And of course, the DDset is still ripping through its counters: 364 HP / 299 Def Metagross has a very high chance of being 2HKOd by +1 Outrage after Stealth Rock. So it is being significantly weakened in the process of checking Mence, and that's after you've sacrificed something to lure that Outrage.

Just because the Mence player knows it'll have a well built team doesn't mean they will all of a sudden have godly prediction. If you can say that, you can say the other player will recognize a well built offensive team and know it will carry Salamence and therefore makes predictions just as well, if not better. Predictions are a thought by thought thinking process where you attempt to determine the opponents next move, and not everyone thinks perfectly. Assuming (not knowing, you don't just know every team has a steel type, you can only assume) they have a steel type doesn't mean anything, just that you made an assumption. You could be right or wrong.

Metagross taking those hits actually does what it was probably sent out to do. Stops Salamence sweeping it if was using Outrage. It's a possibility that it could now be confused, after doing 20% to itself + Stealth rock. 45%. It can risk attacking and possibly fainting or switching out, only to come back in further damaged and without boosts. Now you're in range of Scizor's Bullet Punch. You swept one Pokemon and were taken out. A trade off again. Or even a scarf Pokemon finishing you off. Another trade off, just like the previous ones. You traded Metagross, knowing full well it may faint, in return for Salamence. In chess we call that an exchange, and it can be good or bad depending on the situation, but it's required a lot of times to protect your king. Your king in Pokemon? The sweep you want or the stall you want.

Because I was referring to DDMence for my post, I used physical Ape as the comparison, which means bulky waters and grounds do indeed stand in its way of sweeping. And as you've seen, DDMence can break walls while running its common DDset.

I suppose that's true, but it's an inferior wall breaker to Special Nape, which is the example I was using to compare wall breaking abilities. I don't find that the type of moves they use should deter from the comparison; both break walls very well.

Because the list includes reliable checks. Sure, ScarfJirachi and ScarfGon can check DDMence, but they can only do so 50% of the time. The same is true of Zapdos, who makes a much poorer choice user due to its Stealth Rock weakness and the fact that it is easily walled by the likes of Blissey / Tyranitar. The checks / counters I listed can reliable do their job against any Mence set.

If Mence is running Naughty, they get the job done 100% of the time. Not that that proves anything, just throwing it out there. Now let me try this. There are 6 Pokemon on a team. Do you have to send in Jirachi or Flygon the first time around? Or can you do something fun like use other Pokemon that are on your team, which might incline Mence to use Outrage or another move like Earthquake. This might help your check get in easier. Heck, maybe even sending in an Intimidate Pokemon could help.

If those 9 Pokemon you listed can get the job done, I don't see why we need to go on then. If they can each take out Salamence after one death, maybe even 0 deaths (in the case of bringing in ScarfGar or ScarfLatias in on an earthquake) then I'd say you've won that one. They may be Pursuit weak but not every team utilizes pursuit, and pursuit may even help your team (aka, Infernape set up, Lucario set up, Jirachi set up, getting up a Machamp sub, etc.) It varies based on teams whether Pursuit can be a good or bad thing, but in general it can be bad.

Basically I think you're playing in the mindset that switching around is bad, and that if you don't have a switch-in that poses a threat to Salamence you can't play around it. Switching around, using abilities and mind games, all of these kinds of things can be used in the game of Pokemon. You don't need a surefire 100% check or counter to beat a Pokemon, you just need to know how your team can work to play around it.

Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave are rarely seen, tbh, Extremespeed being the most common on. And defenses are important because the pokemon needs to switch in, of course. Salamence has the defenses combined with resistances and Intimidate to switch in much more easily than Gengar, and Gengar really isn't doing that much weakening, either. Obviously, no one is leaving in a purely physical wall against a special attacker such as Gengar - they'll use Bronzong, Blissey, etc.

Defenses are important because you need to switch in your Pokemon? You don't switch in a sweeper on a strong neutral move or a super effective move, you switch into an advantageous situation, where it is immune to a move, resists a move, poses a threat, or a combination of the latter with one of the former, etc.

Saying that they'll switch to Bronzong, Blissey, etc. is pretty situational theorymon. Not every team has one of those. In fact, Bronzong will still be weakened by Gengar on the switch in if it so chooses to meet Shadow Ball (37.3% - 44.4% + SR) or Focus Blast (the same amount). It weakened that Bronzong's HP to almost half, meaning it surely did it's job there.

Another point to bring up, is in the physical metagame we're in, you're not always going to have something to take special hits. In the top 20 alone, about all you have to truly stand up to Gengar without taking much damage is Blissey (WishBliss still losing 32% - 37.8% to Focus Blast!). Gengar supports in about the same way as Salamence. You have to predict and switch to get a Pokemon in safely on it. Think that Scizor is going to be in safe? Well 24% of the time (about 1/4) you might meet HP Fire. This might be a slightly weaker set, but the opponent was probably relying on Scizor to do a lot of things. Now it's gone, and Gengar has done it's job. Prediction works both ways. And really I don't see why Gengar supports any differently from Salamence. They both weaken opposing Pokemon the same way. Maybe I'm missing something though.

Salamence does it with much less effort, which is the difference. Gengar isn't getting around Scizor unless it is a SubHPFire version, which becomes significantly weaker of a threat. If it goes for a full coverage set, it does more damage, yes, but there are plenty of things that can take its hits with ease: Defensive Jirachi, SpD Bronzong, Careful Tyranitar, Heatran, Snorlax, etc. And of course it has those Scarf checks like Mence, in addition to pokemon that are naturally faster.

Does it with much less effort? Where is the effort in selecting an attack and hitting with it? Neither of them uses effort. The only effort used is prediction. You're really going deep, here. Defensive Jirachi?

| Jirachi | HP EV | None | 43.0 |
| Jirachi | SpDefense EV | None | 87.9 |

There are a few that run high HP ( Calm Mind Rachi, although it is used hardly at all, and Support sets, more rare), but aren't enough to classify it as being able to take on, or even counter for that matter, Gengar. Bronzong, as I've pointed out, loses a good deal of HP to Gengar from either Shadow Ball or Focus Blast.

| Tyranitar | SpDefense EV | None | 79.6 |
| Tyranitar | HP EV | None | 53.9 |

Once again, rare.

My point isn't that Gengar can be countered or checked, my point is it supports the team by weakening threats. Not by doing anything else. It weakens threats. What does Salamence do to support the team? It can wish, but so can Latias. It can Toxic, but so can every other Pokemon. Salamence supports the team by weakening other Pokemon, but not in the way the Uber Clause means it. Why you think it fits under that category (especially since you keep talking like it's an offensive monster) I don't know. Again, maybe I'm missing something.

The thing is, Mence can break walls while sweeping at the same time with the DDset. Countless trainers use the "lure Outrage then bring in steel / faster check" strategy. Swampert, Vaporeon, Celebi, Zapdos...they often fall just to safely bring in another check. Hippowdon isn't even that solid of a counter...the large majority prefer to run Roar in the last slot, and it takes 60% min from Naive Mence's Outrage anyway. A temporary solution at best.

Mence doesn't break walls while sweeping. It will 2HKO most walls, and that is through the use of Outrage most of the time, meaning a shorter sweep and possibility of the trainer losing Salamence. I'm not saying Hippowdon is a check (or maybe I implied it without meaning to), I'm trying to get across that it's going to go down with the possibility of ending Mence's sweep. An exchange is made. Hippowdon for Salamence. Or Swampert for Salamence. Or Celebi for Salamence. You sacrifice to put an end to a sweep, just like you do for other sweepers. Sacrificing and exchanging are not new to Pokemon, we've been using them for a long time.

Here, I disagree. ChoiceMence (mostly BandMence here, btw), packs significantly more initial power than its counterparts. It can switch in, pick Outrage and be done with it, as it is powerful enough to 2HKO even Max / Max Bold Cresselia. FatMence isn't an offensive set, so it can't be compared to other offensive sets. BulkyMence, however, can be. Priority becomes much less of an issue, and with simple Magnezone support (1 pokemon, just one), you can sweep a team after a few DDs and Roosts.

It packs more power, but at what cost? It's in Outrage constantly, meaning a simple slip up might cost you. All base 100 + speed nature and over Pokemon can get you. Prediction becomes the crux of the entire set; if you mess up you lost 25% (possibly + 6% more) for nothing. FatMence is one of the 5 viable sets, so it can be compared, but not as in how it does offensively, but how viably it does. And it doesn't do well viably. BulkyMence loses a ridiculous amount of power and speed. 306 Attack and 280 Speed ( boosted to 459 and 420) won't do near as much damage as 365 and 328 Speed (boosted to 547 [almost 100 points more] and 492). You survive an extra hit, but you can't dish out the KO. It's like running a Shuca Lucario, you need a second boost to pose as much of a threat as the original sweeper.

Magnezone doesn't take out every posed threat to Salamence. It takes out Scizor. I don't see Magnezone taking out Metagross (about 45% from Thunderbolt and HP Fire) when Metagross can use Bullet Punch to do 20%-27%, depeding on the set, while surviving an unboosted Earthquake even after Thunderbolt [Lead Set].

ScarfTran (which coincidentally now outspeeds that Salamence after one boost) is not eliminated through Thunderbolt, and ScarfRachi takes only around 50% from Magnezone and can return with Fire Punch. Can Salamence take on Bulky Waters now that it has lost almost 100 points of attack? (Although Magnzone may be able to take these out.) Bulky Grounds? BulkyMence is in no way close to the threat that DDMence is. DDMence and MixMence are the most effective sets, the other do not equal up to them.



Yeah, I forgot about pivot switching when I posted before. That makes Salamence rather easier to deal with after all. (And I forgot about Blissey, who walls Draco Meteors for eternity).
I still hold that the Salamence user doesn't really need to bother predicting on their first attack - unless they know their opponent has Blissey, Bronzong, or something else that doesn't take a lot from Draco Meteor, I'd say just use it. But when it comes to the follow up, I'll admit that it's not as simple as EQ or Fire Blast whatever's in. By the switching you describe, Salamence is easily forced out.

As for the other things that can make as many OHKOs as Salamence - they're slower. I haven't checked the whole list, but I expect some of them could outspeed (perhaps Scarfed) and OHKO the other Pokemon. Very little outspeeds Salamence after it's DDed.

You don't understand. That whole list of Pokemon (bar maybe Ninjask, Jolteon, and Aero) was outsped after a DD by those Pokemon. Does it matter how slow they are if they suddenly hit 361 Speed (Ttar), 391 Speed (Gyarados) and 369 Speed (Dragonite)? They are outspeeding the majority of the metagame when not scarfed, just the same as Salamence. And Speed doesn't matter if you're comparing the point of Deucalion2. Her point?

That's a further six Pokemon, making 32 OU Pokemon a single Salamence set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 68% of the OU metagame!

All of those Pokemon can do almost the same thing. And if scarfing is the only way to beat Mence, and scarfing is the only way to beat these Pokemon

((

but I expect some of them could outspeed (perhaps Scarfed) and OHKO the other Pokemon.

))

then they are no different from Mence and we should test and possibly ban all of them for the same reason that Deucalion2 wanted it banned for.

Please don't respond with "But they have surfire counters!" or anything like that. Guess what? Salamence has steel-types and scarf Pokemon you need to elminate before you send it out to sweep. Tyranitar has bulky fighting Pokemon and scarfed Pokemon you need to eliminate before you send it out to sweep. Dragonite is in the same boat as Salamence. Gyarados has Porygon2, Jolteon and Scarfed Pokemon to take out before you send it out to sweep. With each and everyone one of these Pokemon you have to give it support for it to sweep, and they all acheive about the same amount of OHKOs (and possibly 2HKOS) as each other.

This is a reason why you cannot ban Mence with the argument that it only takes on strategy to eliminate it's counters. The same applies to Dragonite already. Tyranitar's counters lie in Bulky Grounds and Scizor, which can all be taken care of with a good water type. In fact, you can beat all of them with Suicune, maybe Vaporeon. For Gyarados, you need to beat Poyrgon2 and Bulky Waters, which can be done with something like Magnezone. All of these Pokemon are essentially the same, once again, in that they need good support in order to sweep through a team, something that Uber Pokemon don't require for the Offensive Characteristic.

 

[cantab]

You don't understand. That whole list of Pokemon (bar maybe Ninjask, Jolteon, and Aero) was outsped after a DD by those Pokemon. Does it matter how slow they are if they suddenly hit 361 Speed (Ttar), 391 Speed (Gyarados) and 369 Speed (Dragonite)? They are outspeeding the majority of the metagame when not scarfed, just the same as Salamence.

The DD speed boost is the same as the Scarf speed boost. I hope we can agree that to deal with a Dragon Dancer, being Scarfed, so you outspeed it after it's danced, is generally an asset, although it is not the only way.
For the Scarfer to outspeed the Dancer, it must have a higher base HP. Salamence sits at 100; only 9 OU mon are faster, and most of them are frail (Latias isn't but has her own obvious problem with coming in on Salamence)

Gyarados and Dragonite, by contrast, sit at 80 and 81 base speed. Tyranitar is even lower, at 61. Meaning a lot of things, if scarfed, can switch in on the Dance and outspeed. Many of those are bulky enough to switch in on attacks too, which is kind of necessary to be a counter. If a Scarf's not good for that Pokemon's other purposes, there's always Trick.

Now, I'll admit again that a Scarfer is not the only answer to a DDer. But it's certainly a pretty good one for slower Dancers. But not for Salamence. Thus, I'm saying you can't really liken Salamence to slower Dancers.

EDIT: I'm certainly not convinced Salamence is Uber. But I'm not convinced it's not either. It's a beast, and while having no sure counters isn't sufficient for something to be Uber, it is probably necessary.

 

[Stylish Interval]

The DD speed boost is the same as the Scarf speed boost. I hope we can agree that to deal with a Dragon Dancer, being Scarfed, so you outspeed it after it's danced, is generally an asset, although it is not the only way.
For the Scarfer to outspeed the Dancer, it must have a higher base HP. Salamence sits at 100; only 9 OU mon are faster, and most of them are frail (Latias isn't but has her own obvious problem with coming in on Salamence)

Gyarados and Dragonite, by contrast, sit at 80 and 81 base speed. Tyranitar is even lower, at 61. Meaning a lot of things, if scarfed, can switch in on the Dance and outspeed. Many of those are bulky enough to switch in on attacks too, which is kind of necessary to be a counter. If a Scarf's not good for that Pokemon's other purposes, there's always Trick.

Now, I'll admit again that a Scarfer is not the only answer to a DDer. But it's certainly a pretty good one for slower Dancers. But not for Salamence. Thus, I'm saying you can't really liken Salamence to slower Dancers.

EDIT: I'm certainly not convinced Salamence is Uber. But I'm not convinced it's not either. It's a beast, and while having no sure counters isn't sufficient for something to be Uber, it is probably necessary.

A lot of things are faster, but you don't just scarf everything for the sake of beating other Pokemon. The viable scarf Pokemon I can think of are: Starmie, Latias, Gengar, Jirachi, Flygon, (We're now lower than base 100) Porygon-Z, Roserade, Rotom-H, Heracross, Togekiss, (Now lower than base 80) Heatran, Breloom, (Now lower than base 61) and Magnezone. So most scarfers (that I think are relatively common) do outspeed Tyranitar, but only 10 Outspeed Dragonite and Gyarados. Starmie doesn't utilize a choice scarf that often (14.3%), Porygon-Z isn't even seen hardly, Roserade is used more often as a lead (< 7.9 ), Heracross is again, hardly seen, and Breloom only uses it 5.4% of the time. So this really narrows the list down quite a bit. From 4 of the 10 Pokemon that outspeed Dragonite and Gyarados are either not seen, or don't utilize scarf hardly at all.

Now those six Pokemon are:

Latias, Gengar, Jirachi, Flygon, Rotom-H, and Togekiss.

Latias cannot switch in on Outrage or Crunch, meaning it has to come in on the DD or come in after. About the same as Salamence. Gengar cannot come in on Outrage (and if it's taken about 10%, not from Fire Punch either), Crunch, or Waterfall. Jirachi can't switch in on Earthquake. It can come in on Tyranitar however, as even Fire Punch can't OHKO. Flygon can't come in on Outrage, Waterfall or Crunch (Most of the time, good chance for a OHKO), although it can find the chance to come in on Earthquake. Rotom-H can't come in on Outrage or Crunch. It can come in on Gyarados, though. And Togekiss can't switch in on Stone Edge or Outrage.

You can come in on the DD, but you can do the same for Salamence. You can revenge it, but you can do the same for Salamence. You can come in on the Earthquake, but you can do the same for Salamence (and speed tie it, Flygon, or outspeed it, Latias and Gengar).

So Salamence outspeeds a few commonly scarfed Pokemon these guys don't? That doesn't make them any less dangerous. With Salamence you still have to eliminate scarfers and priority users before it can sweep, or it will end up being revenge killed. Same thing here, draw out their choice users or priority users and eliminate them. Draw out their bulkier Pokemon and eliminate them. You have to support any of these Pokemon, including Salamence.

As for scarfers not being a good answer to Salamence but to slower dancers, what's the difference here? Theres 2 or 3 more Pokemon that come come in, but that won't make a difference in how it plays late game. If you've got one thing threatening you and you come in to set up, you probably know it's coming in. What's to stop you from attacking before you set up? It's not always the same thing, where one side predicts perfect and the other seems to not think anything at all. You can attack before you set up, or switch instead of set up as a sort of lure in the late game. (Like nabbing Latias or Gengar with Scizor by switching out from Dragonite or something.)

A quick edit: This doesn't take away from the point that Deucilion2 (still can't spell your name) made her/his post saying that the reason Salamence should be uber was that it OHKOd so many Pokemon, and that a single strategy could be used to set up that Salamence. I was merely pointing out that this worked for Dragonite, Tyranitar, and Gyarados as well for the most part. They each can OHKO over 50% of the OU Metagame, which is a large amount, but no reason to be banned off to Uber. He/She also pointed out that it can KO one Pokemon per game at least, which is another reason it should go to Uber. Each one of these Pokemon will get one kill per game, and a lot of mixed Pokemon will get one kill per game. It's why Salamence shouldn't be sent off to Uber. Not only that but it doesn't even live up to the Offensive Uber Characteristic, which states it must sweep through a majority of teams with little effort. Little Effort is defined by him/her as one turns set up, when really you have to give big support to Salamence to even make sure it can sweep properly. That is more than little effort. Just because the Pokemon only uses one turn to set up, doesn't mean only little effort went into making it sweep. The support counts as effort too. It took that support to get the sweep. So it takes more than little effort, and the definition is more than one turns set up. That's what I was trying to get at.

EDIT: I'm certainly not convinced Salamence is Uber. But I'm not convinced it's not either. It's a beast, and while having no sure counters isn't sufficient for something to be Uber, it is probably necessary.

It's not necessary to have no counters to be Uber. You think Darkrai doesn't have counters? Primeape is one, and I think in the Uber thread they're discussing about how Infernape is one? Deoxys-E, if I'm not mistaken, was almost a never used Pokemon before the lead set was discovered (although it may have been another one) and it can be countered because it has no offensive ability. Manaphy, as a lot of suspect users may be learning, isn't as hard to deal with as once thought. It can (as far as I can tell from reading the thread, but through no experience) be countered.

Counters don't really matter, as long as you can check the threat through any means, be it switching, abilities, pokemon, items, or a combination of any of those. That's how I think of Ubers, anyway, especially with the offensive characteristic saying it has to be able to sweep a large portion of a team with little effort. I feel that if you can't check it at all, it should be able to sweep like that (3-4 Pokemon or a huge disruption in your team, like 3-4 Pokemon near fainting), but if you can then it really isn't. That's my take on it, accurate or inaccurate as it may be. (Although I may not have explained it well. Words are hard to find for this kind of thing lol) I think what I'm trying to get at, is that if we couldn't handle Salamence or check it at all, we'd have known it was Uber when we started playing with it, we wouldn't have waited an entire year to decide whether or not it needed to be tested.

 

[locoghoul]

I don't think Salamence deserves to be a suspect, it's strong but by no means uber

 

[IcyMan28]

Ugh why must you reply in the my quote box! Adding quote tags isn't as hard as it looks. Highlight all and then hit the quote button :/ And I thought you wanted one because you thought it was Uber, not to see how it affected the metagame. I would be fine seeing how the Metagame shifts. If it shifts a lot, we know Mence affected it a lot. If it doesn't, we know Mence really didn't. I see that you are trying to remain neutral, but most of your debates seem to lead back to the "Mence is Uber" thoughts, rather than just shooting down irrelevant points, along with the fact every post you attack mostly has to do with how Mence is not Uber.

Yeah, I figured that remaining neutral wasn't going to work out. Besides, the burden of proof is on the Uber camp to show that Mence is a suspect, and is thus more difficult to do. So I chose that one.

Just because the Mence player knows it'll have a well built team doesn't mean they will all of a sudden have godly prediction. If you can say that, you can say the other player will recognize a well built offensive team and know it will carry Salamence and therefore makes predictions just as well, if not better. Predictions are a thought by thought thinking process where you attempt to determine the opponents next move, and not everyone thinks perfectly. Assuming (not knowing, you don't just know every team has a steel type, you can only assume) they have a steel type doesn't mean anything, just that you made an assumption. You could be right or wrong.

Metagross taking those hits actually does what it was probably sent out to do. Stops Salamence sweeping it if was using Outrage. It's a possibility that it could now be confused, after doing 20% to itself + Stealth rock. 45%. It can risk attacking and possibly fainting or switching out, only to come back in further damaged and without boosts. Now you're in range of Scizor's Bullet Punch. You swept one Pokemon and were taken out. A trade off again. Or even a scarf Pokemon finishing you off. Another trade off, just like the previous ones. You traded Metagross, knowing full well it may faint, in return for Salamence. In chess we call that an exchange, and it can be good or bad depending on the situation, but it's required a lot of times to protect your king. Your king in Pokemon? The sweep you want or the stall you want.

Not every offensive team has a Salamence though. And while not every team has a steel, you are much more likely to find a steel on any type of team as opposed to a Salamence.

As for the above scenario, we all know that luring Mence into an Outrage is one of the most effective means of dealing with it, if not the most effective method. Knowing this, the Mence player could simply pack pokemon that are walled by steels and get on with it, since Mence will be luring and taking them out anyway. It's that kind of support that is dangerous. If Mence were, say, a water type, it would have an entire host of new potential counters, and so it would be more difficult to take advantage of a not-so-obvious counter. I may have worded that oddly, but it makes sense to me.

f Mence is running Naughty, they get the job done 100% of the time. Not that that proves anything, just throwing it out there. Now let me try this. There are 6 Pokemon on a team. Do you have to send in Jirachi or Flygon the first time around? Or can you do something fun like use other Pokemon that are on your team, which might incline Mence to use Outrage or another move like Earthquake. This might help your check get in easier. Heck, maybe even sending in an Intimidate Pokemon could help.

If those 9 Pokemon you listed can get the job done, I don't see why we need to go on then. If they can each take out Salamence after one death, maybe even 0 deaths (in the case of bringing in ScarfGar or ScarfLatias in on an earthquake) then I'd say you've won that one. They may be Pursuit weak but not every team utilizes pursuit, and pursuit may even help your team (aka, Infernape set up, Lucario set up, Jirachi set up, getting up a Machamp sub, etc.) It varies based on teams whether Pursuit can be a good or bad thing, but in general it can be bad.

 Salamence  | Nature       | Naive            |    27.2

Naive is by far the most commonly used nature on Mence, and when combined with Jolly makes up 41.6% of all natures used.

As far as sending in a pokemon the first time, it is generally a good idea lest Mence get a second DD. And of course, if you can predict a lured Outrage then they can easily see what you are trying to do.

Regarding the liability of Pursuit, I personally don't think those threats are more dangerous than Mence. Infernape, Luke, Jirachi, and even Machamp have sure-fire counters, and a wider range of checks.

Basically I think you're playing in the mindset that switching around is bad, and that if you don't have a switch-in that poses a threat to Salamence you can't play around it. Switching around, using abilities and mind games, all of these kinds of things can be used in the game of Pokemon. You don't need a surefire 100% check or counter to beat a Pokemon, you just need to know how your team can work to play around it.

Switching is definitely not a bad thing, and I encourage its use to wear down the likes of LO Mence. Obviously, Mence won't be switching if you don't pose a threat to it, but taking repeated hits won't be good for the team. Say for example you do the following vs. MixMence. You bring in Vaporeon on the Draco Meteor, then switch to 252 / 220 Celebi for the Earthquake, finally bringing in your ScarfTran to take the Outrage, killing it with HP Ice. Vaporeon has taken 68% min from Draco Meteor, Celebi has taken 11% min from Earthquake, and Heatran has lost 33% min to Outrage. Out of the exchange, Celebi is really the only one to have fared well, because, like you said, the pokemon likely came in with prior damage and SR is down. All of this with perfect prediction on the defending player's part.

Defenses are important because you need to switch in your Pokemon? You don't switch in a sweeper on a strong neutral move or a super effective move, you switch into an advantageous situation, where it is immune to a move, resists a move, poses a threat, or a combination of the latter with one of the former, etc.

A resisted attack, then. Gengar is fortunate that it has 3 immunities, then, as even resisted attacks do severe damage to it. For example's sake:

591 Atk vs 156 Def & 262 HP (70 Base Power): 71 - 84 (27.10% - 32.06%)

Scizor's CB U-Turn. Obviously, Gengar won't be coming into a Scizor, but it is losing nearly a third of its health to a 4x resisted attack.

My point isn't that Gengar can be countered or checked, my point is it supports the team by weakening threats. Not by doing anything else. It weakens threats. What does Salamence do to support the team? It can wish, but so can Latias. It can Toxic, but so can every other Pokemon. Salamence supports the team by weakening other Pokemon, but not in the way the Uber Clause means it. Why you think it fits under that category (especially since you keep talking like it's an offensive monster) I don't know. Again, maybe I'm missing something.

Gengar attacks, yes. It is still 2HKOd by even resisted hits, and is stopped cold by Blissey (unless it packs Explosion or Focus Punch which WishBliss can merely Protect on). Anything with base 58 speed or higher can outpace Gengar with a Scarf, while the number is much higher for Mence. Checks for Gengar include Blissey, Lax, Tyranitar (and SpD versions were used enough to get Careful its own slot on the detailed stat listings), Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong. Even if they don't fully counter, they can take a hit and strike back hard, notably Tyranitar and Metagross. We already know the reliable checks for Mence, and see that they are limited.

So yes, Gengar can also attack to provide support, but it is the predictability of Mence's checks that allows you to easily exploit the situation - another aspect of support.

It packs more power, but at what cost? It's in Outrage constantly, meaning a simple slip up might cost you. All base 100 + speed nature and over Pokemon can get you. Prediction becomes the crux of the entire set; if you mess up you lost 25% (possibly + 6% more) for nothing. FatMence is one of the 5 viable sets, so it can be compared, but not as in how it does offensively, but how viably it does. And it doesn't do well viably. BulkyMence loses a ridiculous amount of power and speed. 306 Attack and 280 Speed ( boosted to 459 and 420) won't do near as much damage as 365 and 328 Speed (boosted to 547 [almost 100 points more] and 492). You survive an extra hit, but you can't dish out the KO. It's like running a Shuca Lucario, you need a second boost to pose as much of a threat as the original sweeper.

Magnezone doesn't take out every posed threat to Salamence. It takes out Scizor. I don't see Magnezone taking out Metagross (about 45% from Thunderbolt and HP Fire) when Metagross can use Bullet Punch to do 20%-27%, depeding on the set, while surviving an unboosted Earthquake even after Thunderbolt [Lead Set].

ScarfTran (which coincidentally now outspeeds that Salamence after one boost) is not eliminated through Thunderbolt, and ScarfRachi takes only around 50% from Magnezone and can return with Fire Punch. Can Salamence take on Bulky Waters now that it has lost almost 100 points of attack? (Although Magnzone may be able to take these out.) Bulky Grounds? BulkyMence is in no way close to the threat that DDMence is. DDMence and MixMence are the most effective sets, the other do not equal up to them.

FatMence doesn't boost and sweep, nor does it hit all that hard when compared to other sets, you're right. As far as BulkyMence, though, it does not attack after a single boost - the idea is to use Roost and your bulk to build up enough DDs so that you actually hit harder than the straight DDer.

Magnezone may not take out every one, but it takes out a large majority. Skarmory, Bronzong, Forretress, Empoleon, Registeel, Locked Heatran, and Jirachi are all trapped and killed. Metagross is a gamble, but if Maggy manages to get that Magnet Rise, it could be over. No smart user will bring Maggy into a Jirachi locked into Fire Punch, or Heatran locked into STAB.

Yeah, I forgot about pivot switching when I posted before. That makes Salamence rather easier to deal with after all. (And I forgot about Blissey, who walls Draco Meteors for eternity).
I still hold that the Salamence user doesn't really need to bother predicting on their first attack - unless they know their opponent has Blissey, Bronzong, or something else that doesn't take a lot from Draco Meteor, I'd say just use it. But when it comes to the follow up, I'll admit that it's not as simple as EQ or Fire Blast whatever's in. By the switching you describe, Salamence is easily forced out.

So Salamence can spam DM on the first attack with few, if any, drawbacks...doesn't seem like a healthy situation to me. And that's if Mence doesn't predict. If Mence user knows that a pokemon like Bronzong is likely to be brought in, he can play accordingly and NOT lower his SpA with Draco Meteor. Prediction goes both ways, as you've previously stated.

And I wonder...might Dragon Pulse have some merit on new MixMence? It still manages 2HKOs on the likes of Swampert and Hippowdon, but without the drawback of SpA drop. It might be worth looking into, IMO.

 

[afterburn]

I don't think Salamence deserves to be a suspect, it's strong but by no means uber

Suspect doesn't mean it will turn out to be Uber after the test. He deserves to be tested so we can be sure he's a viable OU Pokemon, if not, then he'll be Uber, if there's an even amount of people voting it Uber and OU, then it will be retested.

Salamence might not be Uber, but every team needs at least one check for Salamence, this is usually a Scarf Latias to revenge kill. Some people rely on Scizor to revenge it with Bullet Punch, a smart player will predict the switch and use Fire Blast.


I think the Mixed Dancer coat of the Mixed wall breakers and Standard Dancer, can cause damage to a broader amount of Pokémon in OU.

Dragon Dance right off the bat to attract Physical walls, such as: Gliscor, Swampert, Hippowdon,etc. Draco Meteor them or to negate the -2 S.atk use Dragon Pulse as mentioned by Icy Man. With these walls removed very little can stop Salamence from sweeping.

Jirachi, Latias, Scizor, Bronzong are what can try to stop the sweep. If Scarf Jirachi loses the speed tie with Naive +1 Mence, it falls to EQ. Scizor can revenge with BP, Latias with its Dragon-type moves, and Bronzong walls it, if Salamence does not have fire Blast. Out of all the 52 OU Pokémon, only 3 can stop it. It definitely deserves a test.

 

[Deucalion2]

I don't have the time to be alone for long atm, so I'd just like to point out that my main problem with Pokenerd's counterargument to mine was that a) most of those Pokemon do not have the same ease as Salamence and do not have such good synergies (Tyranitar for example. He's weak to Steel, Grass, Water, Fighting, Ground and Bug, he has no "perfect partner" because nothing resists all those types), and the second problem is their relative low speed, meaning they have many, many more 100% reliable checks, where as Salamence has a rather small nine.

 

[Stylish Interval]

As for the above scenario, we all know that luring Mence into an Outrage is one of the most effective means of dealing with it, if not the most effective method. Knowing this, the Mence player could simply pack pokemon that are walled by steels and get on with it, since Mence will be luring and taking them out anyway. It's that kind of support that is dangerous. If Mence were, say, a water type, it would have an entire host of new potential counters, and so it would be more difficult to take advantage of a not-so-obvious counter. I may have worded that oddly, but it makes sense to me.

Mence could pack support, yes. Just like any sweeper. You pack support to eliminate the Pokemon that get in the way of a sweep. It doesn't matter how many different types of checks or counters there are, you're still doing it and that's the same as any other sweeper.

Steels aren't the only ones, anyway. The DDMence is still checked by Porygon2. Hippowdon can still find it's way in on DDMence and take a 2HKO from Outrage, stalling out Outrage and adding SS to the mix of damage. Even Swampert can survive a +1 Outrage. All of these examples assume Mence got +1 as well, meaning that if Salamence hasn't gotten +1 he'll have an even harder time dealing with them. Don't forget Weavile and Mamoswine, you'll need to make sure they're out of the way as well. You have to provide support to make sure nothing gets in the way of your sweep for Salamence. That's the effort in having Salamence sweep. You have to support him in order to sweep. If there was little effort, he wouldn't require any.

 Salamence  | Nature       | Naive            |    27.2

Naive is by far the most commonly used nature on Mence, and when combined with Jolly makes up 41.6% of all natures used.

And combined Naughty and Adamant make up ~32%, but oh well, that doesn't prove anything like I said.

As far as sending in a pokemon the first time, it is generally a good idea lest Mence get a second DD. And of course, if you can predict a lured Outrage then they can easily see what you are trying to do.

I don't understand how you can call it a generally good idea if the situations of all battles will be different by the time Salamence gets in. But this isn't proving anything.

Let me see if I understand that last sentence though. If I the defender, can predict a lured Outrage (which I should be able to, I lured it), then they can see what I'm trying to do? Of course they can, they just fell for the trap! Now they're probably losing Mence as well! If you mean I'm luring them in and they predict it, well you can't stop that either, but prediction isn't always 100% accurate, and you may over or under predict the situation and still lose Salamence. It's a guessing game, and the situation of the battle will decide what move probably needs to be used.

Regarding the liability of Pursuit, I personally don't think those threats are more dangerous than Mence. Infernape, Luke, Jirachi, and even Machamp have sure-fire counters, and a wider range of checks.

I don't think they're more dangerous than Mence either. I don't know where you pulled that from my post. I was merely saying your check could be pursuit-bait on purpose, to lure in Tyranitar or Scizor to use Pursuit so you can set up with your own sweeper. Strategy has more than one face, and that could be one of them.

Switching is definitely not a bad thing, and I encourage its use to wear down the likes of LO Mence. Obviously, Mence won't be switching if you don't pose a threat to it, but taking repeated hits won't be good for the team. Say for example you do the following vs. MixMence. You bring in Vaporeon on the Draco Meteor, then switch to 252 / 220 Celebi for the Earthquake, finally bringing in your ScarfTran to take the Outrage, killing it with HP Ice. Vaporeon has taken 68% min from Draco Meteor, Celebi has taken 11% min from Earthquake, and Heatran has lost 33% min to Outrage. Out of the exchange, Celebi is really the only one to have fared well, because, like you said, the pokemon likely came in with prior damage and SR is down. All of this with perfect prediction on the defending player's part.

If you knew it was a MixMence, which your post implies to a degree, you could have just gone to Heatran to force out the threat or KO it, meaning an opportunity for your sweeper could come up because of that.

If you didn't, you made good moves there, but both Celebi and Heatran came out of that exchange well. If a Pokemon whose job is to Revenge Kill or Force Out threats, that Pokemon has done it's job when it does that to one Pokemon. Heatran did exactly what the user of that team wanted it to do, it got rid of Salamence. It came out well, it only lost ~35% to get rid of a threat to your team. It can still come back in on one of its 10 resistances and 2 immunities and do the same thing again. It's fared well in that exchange, it still has a majority of it's health. The player exchanged a lot of Vaporeon for Salamence. And what's to stop Vaporeon from coming on on a water attack and healing 1/3 of the damage it took? There is nothing. That whole scenario can turn out well for the player using the Pokemon. Your example only shows how smart switching can deal with Salamence.

A resisted attack, then. Gengar is fortunate that it has 3 immunities, then, as even resisted attacks do severe damage to it. For example's sake:

591 Atk vs 156 Def & 262 HP (70 Base Power): 71 - 84 (27.10% - 32.06%)

Scizor's CB U-Turn. Obviously, Gengar won't be coming into a Scizor, but it is losing nearly a third of its health to a 4x resisted attack.

I said sweeper because that applies to the mindset of a wall breaker when it comes to switching in. So yes, you're switching in on resisted attacks and immunities. And of course Gengar isn't coming in on one of it's checks! You don't switch in Salamence on Infernape!

Gengar attacks, yes. It is still 2HKOd by even resisted hits, and is stopped cold by Blissey (unless it packs Explosion or Focus Punch which WishBliss can merely Protect on). Anything with base 58 speed or higher can outpace Gengar with a Scarf, while the number is much higher for Mence. Checks for Gengar include Blissey, Lax, Tyranitar (and SpD versions were used enough to get Careful its own slot on the detailed stat listings), Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong. Even if they don't fully counter, they can take a hit and strike back hard, notably Tyranitar and Metagross. We already know the reliable checks for Mence, and see that they are limited.

So yes, Gengar can also attack to provide support, but it is the predictability of Mence's checks that allows you to easily exploit the situation - another aspect of support.[/QUOTE]


I still think you're missing the point. Gengar isn't trying to sweep in any of my examples. It's wall breaking. Who cares if base 58 Speed Pokemon can outspeed it with a scarf, they aren't going to switch in to have some of a neutral or super effective Shadow Ball (as according to my list of viable sweepers in my above post, only 4 resist Shadow Ball at all, some are weak to it)!
Gengar comes in on something and just shoots out damage. It has excellent coverage and hits almost everything for super effective damage, and it weakens walls (what a wall breaker does) so your sweeper can sweep. I don't give a shit that Blissey can come in and stop it. It can hit everything else and deal big damage to it. Snorlax? 46.9% - 55.3% is Focus Blast. Tyranitar? 252/216 Careful Variants are still OHKOd by Focus Blast. Gengar is going to do it's job of wall breaking. How many times I must say wall breaking so you'll stop thinking it's a sweeper I don't know.

To address why you say the predictability of Mences counters makes it more threatening as support, what is that I don't even. Gengar can use Shadow Ball and in the Top 20 Pokemon (good range, don't you think) only Blissey can switch in without perfect prediction and not take a huge hit or be 2HKOd. Sounds a lot like Salamence, doesn't it? In fact, Gengar can just use Shadow Ball (this is an 80 base power move we're talking) and not have a chance at 2HKOing Scizor, Tyranitar, Heatran, Blissey, Vaporeon, and Magnezone. It can still deal with Tyranitar via Focus Blast, and Vaporeon via Thunderbolt. That leaves Scizor who can switch in and Bullet Punch (not unlike Mence), Scarf Heatran who can switch in and take the resisted hit and KO (not unlike Mence), Blissey who just straight up walls it (unlike Mence), and Magnezone who can switch in and take the resisted hit and KO.

All of these factors are so similar to Mence it's ridiculous. Gengar is on a level playing field with Salamence on the Support Characteristic, unless you think there is another way he can be considered for it, which I can't seem to see.

FatMence doesn't boost and sweep, nor does it hit all that hard when compared to other sets, you're right. As far as BulkyMence, though, it does not attack after a single boost - the idea is to use Roost and your bulk to build up enough DDs so that you actually hit harder than the straight DDer.

If BulkyMence can do as well as DDMence, and take more hits, then why don't more people use it? It's again, just like Shuca Lucario. You have to boost twice in order to have the effectiveness of one boost on the original set, and you're running Bulk to try and counter your counters. It doesn't work as well as DDMence, it doesn't provide the same threat, it is a hell of a lot weaker, it takes a long time to set up, and you need more support in order for it to work. It's nowhere near as effective as a regular DDMence.

Magnezone may not take out every one, but it takes out a large majority. Skarmory, Bronzong, Forretress, Empoleon, Registeel, Locked Heatran, and Jirachi are all trapped and killed. Metagross is a gamble, but if Maggy manages to get that Magnet Rise, it could be over. No smart user will bring Maggy into a Jirachi locked into Fire Punch, or Heatran locked into STAB.

Magnet Rise won't beat Empoleon, Heatran or Jirachi. And the only way Heatran is using anything other than Flamethrower or Earth Power is if a Dragon-type or Swampert is in play.

I don't have the time to be alone for long atm, so I'd just like to point out that my main problem with Pokenerd's counterargument to mine was that a) most of those Pokemon do not have the same ease as Salamence and do not have such good synergies (Tyranitar for example. He's weak to Steel, Grass, Water, Fighting, Ground and Bug, he has no "perfect partner" because nothing resists all those types), and the second problem is their relative low speed, meaning they have many, many more 100% reliable checks, where as Salamence has a rather small nine.

Crap, it was you who posted that. Now I have to go fix my post again.

My counter argument was actually pretty good. Those Pokemon don't need synergies (whatever the fuck that is. Pokemon who provide type synergy?), they need support. Something Salamence needs as well. They need a strategy, something Salamence needs as well.

Let me add on to this with Synergy. Synergy isn't just typing, any good player will tell you that. Synergy is how well your Pokemon work together, and that isn't just taking resisted hits. That's stupid, to think that. Tyranitar and Vaporeon have good synergy together. They can work together to wear out the opponents team, and Vaporeon can even deal with most of Tyranitars counters. In return, Tyranitar can use it's monstrous Special Defense to take on threats to Vaporeon like Zapdos or Celebi. Vaporeon can also provide Wish Support for Tyranitar and other Pokemon, making the combo even nicer. Things like this are synergy, typing synergy is just a weaker form of synergy.

As for your second point about having more reliable counters, what does speed have to do with that? After a boost only Scarfed Pokemon will be able to catch up (and base 115, 120, 125 on Tyranitar) which there are not a lot of common ones. I've shown the list of viable scarfers, but I"ll go through it again.

A lot of things are faster, but you don't just scarf everything for the sake of beating other Pokemon. The viable scarf Pokemon I can think of are: Starmie, Latias, Gengar, Jirachi, Flygon, (We're now lower than base 100) Porygon-Z, Roserade, Rotom-H, Heracross, Togekiss, (Now lower than base 80) Heatran, Breloom, (Now lower than base 61) and Magnezone. So most scarfers (that I think are relatively common) do outspeed Tyranitar, but only 10 Outspeed Dragonite and Gyarados. Starmie doesn't utilize a choice scarf that often (14.3%), Porygon-Z isn't even seen hardly, Roserade is used more often as a lead (< 7.9 ), Heracross is again, hardly seen, and Breloom only uses it 5.4% of the time. So this really narrows the list down quite a bit. From 4 of the 10 Pokemon that outspeed Dragonite and Gyarados are either not seen, or don't utilize scarf hardly at all.

Now those six Pokemon are:

Latias, Gengar, Jirachi, Flygon, Rotom-H, and Togekiss.

These are the scarfed Pokemon truly threatening Dragonite and Gyarados, and they can be dealt with to open up a sweep. Of course, we can't forget about Scizor (for Dragonite and Tyranitar), Weavile (for Dragonite), and Mamoswine (Dragonite). Latias, Gengar, Jirachi, Flygon, Scizor, Weavile, Mamoswine all pose a threat to Mence after a DD and you have to make sure they are out of the way. Dragonite even poses a threat to Salamence after a DD (Extremespeed from Anti-Lead Dnite does 42.3% - 49.8%).

All of these Pokemon require support to eliminate these "100% reliable checks" and to make sure they don't threaten the sweep. DD Salamence and DD Dragonite are so similar it's ridiculous that you think one deserves a suspect test for offensive characteristic and one doesn't. All of these Pokemon can achieve close to the same number of OHKOs, which shows Salamence isn't that much stronger than these DD users.

The points of your argument I've mostly addressed.

"Salamence can OHKO a majority of the metagame after one DD" - I've addressed it, other DD users are close to the same number.

"Salamence has no counter that is not overspecialising in order to defeat him" - The game isn't about countering, and it hasn't been that way for a long time. It's about checking and playing around threats. DPPt Metagame has too many Offensive Pokemon for us to always counter - especially while only using 6 Pokemon - and still think we're going to win. Countering doesn't win games, it just prolongs the amount of time until your loss.

"If your team does not have one of those Pokemon [in reference to the list of Pokemon you gave] ... your team has a weakness to at least one Salamence set." -Again, you have a weakness based on the mentality that without a counter to a Pokemon it's impossible to handle. The goal of a team is to execute a certain strategy, not to counter everything. You aren't Salamence weak if Salamence can never set up on you, or if you have a plan to play around it. You don't play to counter, you play to execute your strategy.

"Without support, he's still capable of a guaranteed kill, and he, in common battles conditions (and don't dare call having a Scizor and Metagross on your team "building it around Salamence" because that's two Pokemon out of five and they have a myriad uses anyway), is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort." - Jesus. Without support, Lucario is still guaranteed one kill per game. Hell, Shuca Lucario is guaranteed one kill per game. By the way, if you put two Pokemon on a team to support a sweeper, you just built a team around your sweeper. 2 out of 5 Pokemon to make sure your sweeper can sweep, that's 1/3 of a team. In common battle conditions Salamence is not capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams with little effort. You support him, and that is the effort to the sweep. Salamence may have just used Dragon Dance then swept, but you used other Pokemon to make sure he could do it. That is the effort in his sweep.

Salamence might not be Uber, but every team needs at least one check for Salamence, this is usually a Scarf Latias to revenge kill.

"Every team needs a check for Salamence" is what you say, but we can apply that to every threatening sweeper. SD Lucario, NP/SD Infernape, CMRachi, CMLatias, etc. all need a way to be dealt with or your team won't be succeeding much.

Some people rely on Scizor to revenge it with Bullet Punch, a smart player will predict the switch and use Fire Blast.

You have to be kidding me. If you're revenge killing a Pokemon, you aren't switching in on an attack. You come in after your Pokemon is killed and then finish it off. Salamence can't Fire Blast on a turn it can't attack :/

Dragon Dance right off the bat to attract Physical walls, such as: Gliscor, Swampert, Hippowdon,etc. Draco Meteor them or to negate the -2 S.atk use Dragon Pulse as mentioned by Icy Man. With these walls removed very little can stop Salamence from sweeping.

If you Dragon Pulse you won't OHKO a lot of these, and lose Salamence in exchange for half of their health. I think he meant on a Wall Breaker set like MixMence. And with those walls removed very little can stop Lucario, Dragonite, Gyarados, or Tyranitar from Sweeping. With special walls removed, very little can stop NP Azelf or Infernape from sweeping. Eliminating walls and checks and counters is how you set up a sweep for a Pokemon.

Why does Salamence deserve a test based on those arguments you gave if they can be extended to other Pokemon in OU?

All of 12/26 I'll be gone, but I will probably be back the evening of 12/27. Unless I obtain computer access I won't be able to debate back with you guys, but I think I've addressed enough to where I can afford to be gone a whole day. Until then (unless you post later tonight).

 

[Deucalion2]

Again, I don't have a lot of time (probably will around New Year's Eve, if anyone is interested) but everything Pokenerd has said is applicable to Garchomp, and Latios. Salamence has even less checks than Latios does because Latios is lacking on the physical side, and Salamence is revenged even less easily because of the lack of Pursuit weakness in comparison to Latios. In fact, most your arguments can be applied to any Uber. I'm sure I could think of 9 checks currently in OU to at least a third of Uber Pokemon. Where do we draw the line?

 

[MrIndigo]

Ultimately, the arguments for and against Uber judgements here are pretty meaningless; that's what Suspect testing is supposed to educate. Either way, the arguments are basically:

Pro-Uber:- Need to show why Salamence is better than his similar compatriots in OU.

Anti-Uber:- Need to show why Salamence is different to Uber comparisons (most notably Garchomp).

 

[Stylish Interval]

Again, I don't have a lot of time (probably will around New Year's Eve, if anyone is interested) but everything Pokenerd has said is applicable to Garchomp, and Latios. Salamence has even less checks than Latios does because Latios is lacking on the physical side, and Salamence is revenged even less easily because of the lack of Pursuit weakness in comparison to Latios. In fact, most your arguments can be applied to any Uber. I'm sure I could think of 9 checks currently in OU to at least a third of Uber Pokemon. Where do we draw the line?

Let me say no. Those Pokemon aren't Uber because they have checks. That doesn't make them Uber. They're Uber because they fit into a characteristic, and personally it seems you're drawing a few last straws before your argument finally loses all flame. Pokemon aren't Uber because they don't have checks or counters, Pokemon are Uber because they fit into the Offensive, Support, or Defensive Characteristic. That's what makes a Pokemon Uber.

Now I don't see my arguments doing anything to prove any Uber Pokemon to be OU. I see where I said you check, not counter in this metagame. I think that's the one you're actually applying, which is ridiculously incorrect as that point was brought up as a counter point to your point that because Salamence has no counters every team will be Salamence weak.

And again, all of my arguments are merely counter arguments to the points almost all of the Uber Camp is making. I merely extend the arguments to other OU Pokemon and we find they are quite similar. Please, show me some points besides "We can check Latios", which I still find ridiculous because we can check a lot of Uber Pokemon with OU Pokemon, it's just that they fit a characteristic which gets them into Uber.

Anti-Uber:- Need to show why Salamence is different to Uber comparisons (most notably Garchomp).

Anti-Uber actually only needs to disprove the arguments showing why he fits into any category. You don't compare Ubers to OUs to decide whether or not they fit. And you don't compare OUs to Ubers to decide whether or not they fit. Uber needs to show why he fits into any category of Uber and Anti-Uber will attempt to disprove what they said. If they can't disprove, it will seem he is Suspect Test worthy. If they can, it will seem he isn't.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Ok number one, I saw alot of eh... in this thread. No offense. Simply put, Salamence is no Garchomp. Garchomp had a much superior typing, Thunder Wave resist, Swords Dance, much better defenses which outclass even Swampert's, Sandstorm resist, and the ability to just rip through stuff little fear because of the prediction ease from the extra power. Salamence has that SR weakness, a much worse typing, and it simply CANNOT run through an entire team without any support. You guys automatically assume when Salamence hits the field, its gg because it got a Dragon Dance. This is not always the case, and even so its quite easy to revenge. There is plenty of fast scarfers in the metagame, and priority is popular too so I don't get why everyone is whining. As for the Mix-Mence set... do you know a good portion of the Metagame is steels? Just switch one of them on Draco Meteor, and just go on with your day. Mence is NOT impossible to switch in by any means. SR weakness, and the popularity of Sandstorm simply makes Mence go down pretty fast. Something makes me really think that all of you guys run stall, and are whining because your walls are getting broken. Mence is only uber if you have "god-like" perfect prediction skills, and we ALL know even players like IPL predict perfectly every single time. /sarcasm

If you guys ban Mence, I have a pretty darn good feeling Dragonite would just fill its place as the "OU Dragon to run" once people actually realize that its not that bad.

Salamence falling under the defensive characteristic... that is a joke tbh. There is plenty of other walls, who have superior defences and typings, and perfectly viable recovery as well.

As for the offensive characteristic, no... This is why people run Magnezone to support and complement Mence.

Another thing is Rapin Spinning nowadays is very hard due to the fact Rotom-H is everywhere. So using "Omg, SR isn't a problem. We have spinners like Starmie" is not a valid argument for the most part.

Another thing, I haven't said much simply because intelligent posters like Pokenerd_Pwnzor has said it all, and I am a lazy bum. I rest my case.

 

[Age of Kings]

I'm not going to repeat what was already said, props to Lizardman and Poken3rd for taking the words out of my mouth. I'm not sure where this Salamence for suspect stuff started, but it's ludicrous.

The only thing I'm going to add, drawing another comparison to Garchomp, is that I don't feel Mence is as overcentralizing as Garchomp was. iirc, in the final months before it was banned, Garchomp usage was through the roof and utterly ridiculous. Looking at July 2008 statistics (linked to the current months's statistics), Garchomp was #1 in usage and used more than 20,000 more times than #2, Gengar (which is significant because iirc the shoddy official server and smogon weren't merged yet so there was less people). Of 168,958 total battles in all tiers, Garchomp was present in half of them. Salamence from the November stats in comparison is #2, and 42% in usage but lags behind Scizor. It represents a less significant number in total battles.

Statistics aren't a very good backing argument but they highlight part of my confusion as to why Salamence was brought up for this in the first place. Yeah, there's this characteristic stuff (I don't particularly like them at all tbqh but I might as well use it), but let's look at the offensive one:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

It takes a great deal of effort to get a Dragon Dance off Salamence. As others have said, you don't have Garchomp's resistance to rocks or immunity to Sandstorm, and you have to compromise only having a +1 boost with a Life Orb. And that's just the beginning, with secondary damage and all. And not all Mence sets run Dragon Dance. And even if it does, do you just D/C because it's game over? Do you get swept because the opponent outplayed you and removed Mence's counters properly beforehand, or because it's super duper powerful and nothing can ever stop it or at the very least revenge it?

Now the reason why I bring this and the stats up is that most people are too lazy to discover new things. If something were easily abusable, like Yache-Chomp, Salamence usage wouldn't be flip-flopping between #6 and #2.

That is al lI really have to say.

 

[Aquamentus]

It's not just Salamence though, it's Salamence, Dragonite, and Latias that are starting to get on people's nerves. Banning Salamence doesn't accomplish much when Dragonite can do the same thing (with Superpower as a bonus!), and Latias is arguably superior to them both, though she has to Trick Blissey instead of use physical moves. I don't think making just one of them a suspect is going to accomplish much, all three push the line. As discussed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65051

EDIT: None of them are broken sweepers, they push the line as wall breakers more than anything. It's not like they're the only Pokemon impossible to switch into either... gah, I don't really want any of them banned honestly.

 

[ANinyMouse]

It's not just Salamence though, it's Salamence, Dragonite, and Latias that are starting to get on people's nerves. Banning Salamence doesn't accomplish much when Dragonite can do the same thing (with Superpower as a bonus!), and Latias is arguably superior to them both, though she has to Trick Blissey instead of use physical moves. I don't think making just one of them a suspect is going to accomplish much, all three push the line. As discussed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65051

EDIT: None of them are broken sweepers, they push the line as wall breakers more than anything. It's not like they're the only Pokemon impossible to switch into either... gah, I don't really want any of them banned honestly.

I agree with you.

Personally, I think it all evens out in the end. If OU becomes too "annoying" for the average battler, they can still play LC, UU & Uber :]

 

[lordkira]

I agree with Lizardman, Poken3rd and AoK on most of the issues regarding Salamence.
Also, to those trying to compare Salamence to Garchomp, I simply believe Garchomp is just a better pokemon in general by "far".

 

[Warped Worlds]

I'm not going to repeat what was already said, props to Lizardman and Poken3rd for taking the words out of my mouth. I'm not sure where this Salamence for suspect stuff started, but it's ludicrous.

The only thing I'm going to add, drawing another comparison to Garchomp, is that I don't feel Mence is as overcentralizing as Garchomp was. iirc, in the final months before it was banned, Garchomp usage was through the roof and utterly ridiculous. Looking at July 2008 statistics (linked to the current months's statistics), Garchomp was #1 in usage and used more than 20,000 more times than #2, Gengar (which is significant because iirc the shoddy official server and smogon weren't merged yet so there was less people). Of 168,958 total battles in all tiers, Garchomp was present in half of them. Salamence from the November stats in comparison is #2, and 42% in usage but lags behind Scizor. It represents a less significant number in total battles.

Statistics aren't a very good backing argument but they highlight part of my confusion as to why Salamence was brought up for this in the first place. Yeah, there's this characteristic stuff (I don't particularly like them at all tbqh but I might as well use it), but let's look at the offensive one:

It takes a great deal of effort to get a Dragon Dance off Salamence. As others have said, you don't have Garchomp's resistance to rocks or immunity to Sandstorm, and you have to compromise only having a +1 boost with a Life Orb. And that's just the beginning, with secondary damage and all. And not all Mence sets run Dragon Dance. And even if it does, do you just D/C because it's game over? Do you get swept because the opponent outplayed you and removed Mence's counters properly beforehand, or because it's super duper powerful and nothing can ever stop it or at the very least revenge it?

Now the reason why I bring this and the stats up is that most people are too lazy to discover new things. If something were easily abusable, like Yache-Chomp, Salamence usage wouldn't be flip-flopping between #6 and #2.

That is al lI really have to say.

Thanks much! You also said some stuff I forgot as well. =)

It's not just Salamence though, it's Salamence, Dragonite, and Latias that are starting to get on people's nerves. Banning Salamence doesn't accomplish much when Dragonite can do the same thing (with Superpower as a bonus!), and Latias is arguably superior to them both, though she has to Trick Blissey instead of use physical moves. I don't think making just one of them a suspect is going to accomplish much, all three push the line. As discussed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65051

EDIT: None of them are broken sweepers, they push the line as wall breakers more than anything. It's not like they're the only Pokemon impossible to switch into either... gah, I don't really want any of them banned honestly.

None of them should be banned tbh, although I believe Salamence is the strongest out of the 3. It is just preference I suppose. I just like how Salamence can hit from either side of the spectrum, no matter what set its running.

Thanks for your insight though. =)

I agree with you.

Personally, I think it all evens out in the end. If OU becomes too "annoying" for the average battler, they can still play LC, UU & Uber :]

Yes, I agree with him too. Although, just remember that no matter what tier it is, there will be a dominating force. Examples are Gligar in Little Cup, Kyogre in Ubers, etc.

I agree with Lizardman, Poken3rd and AoK on most of the issues regarding Salamence.
Also, to those trying to compare Salamence to Garchomp, I simply believe Garchomp is just a better pokemon in general by "far".

Thanks much! ^_^

I am glad some people actually see it our way, since I think this has gone way too far. Garchomp IS better, so kudos for actually realizing that haha.

 

[MrIndigo]

Let me say no. Those Pokemon aren't Uber because they have checks. That doesn't make them Uber. They're Uber because they fit into a characteristic, and personally it seems you're drawing a few last straws before your argument finally loses all flame. Pokemon aren't Uber because they don't have checks or counters, Pokemon are Uber because they fit into the Offensive, Support, or Defensive Characteristic. That's what makes a Pokemon Uber.

This argument has been used a number of times in this thread, and not to single yours out or anything, but it's entirely semantic; the argument that a pokemon has no checks is exactly the same as stating they fit under the offensive category.

Anti-Uber actually only needs to disprove the arguments showing why he fits into any category. You don't compare Ubers to OUs to decide whether or not they fit. And you don't compare OUs to Ubers to decide whether or not they fit. Uber needs to show why he fits into any category of Uber and Anti-Uber will attempt to disprove what they said. If they can't disprove, it will seem he is Suspect Test worthy. If they can, it will seem he isn't.

If Pokemon X fits under an Uber clause, and you cannot show why Pokemon Y is different to Pokemon X, then it follows that Pokemon Y fits under the same Uber clause. This is where the comparison between Uber and OU comes into it. In this situation, many of the arguments for and against Salamence are the same that were for and against Garchomp, which makes it even more pertinent to make the comparison. If one is deemed Uber and one is not, there must necessarily be some feature that distinguishes the two pokemon.

Smogon, as far as I'm aware, uses a balance of probabilities testing process rather than a beyond reasonable doubt, so both parties have to raise arguments and disprove the opposition's.

@Lizard: Kyogre in Ubers isn't the best example, because there's nothing that can be done about it if it is too powerful, given that Ubers is itself a banlist.

Also, as far as "If it gets annoying, there are other formats" goes, that is very true, but the argument only works if the annoyed are in a small minority. The entire purpose of managing a banlist for the Standard format is to make the game fun to play for the general competitive punter. If you get enough people annoyed, it means the Standard format is not being managed effectively.

 

[ANinyMouse]

Also, as far as "If it gets annoying, there are other formats" goes, that is very true, but the argument only works if the annoyed are in a small minority. The entire purpose of managing a banlist for the Standard format is to make the game fun to play for the general competitive punter. If you get enough people annoyed, it means the Standard format is not being managed effectively.

True. Honestly, since I don't play Pokemon a whole lot, I wouldn't know how annoying it is or even what percentage of the Smogonites are sick of Salamence. I suppose it could be a widespread problem, considering all the attention this topic is getting all at once (3 seperate threads!).

So far, the most convincing argument to me has been, basically, "Yes Salamence is slightly unbalanced, but not overly so."

I say we should just go ahead and put him to a suspect test, as that will basically allow the best and most dedicated players (the ones that the rules matter to the most) to decide which way they'd like to keep playing the game. These threads have been helpful and interesting, but they have accomplished little. Only a suspect test will bring any kind of result... unless most of the best and brightest are already certain that Salamence is fine where he is. If that's the case, then I'd say it's time to move on an see how the Species Clause test goes!

 

[cantab]

As for the Mix-Mence set... do you know a good portion of the Metagame is steels? Just switch one of them on Draco Meteor, and just go on with your day.

As I already explained, Draco Meteor does a hefty chunk, around about 50%, to most steels. The type tends to be slow, so unless they're scarfed, the followup Earthquake or Fire Blast (even with the SpA drop) will take them out. Of course you can pivot switch. But most steels coming in on a Draco Meteor is far from a free switch-in.