Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Aquamentus]

A defensive-minded Vaporeon walks in and takes 33% from the first Draco Meteor, virtually nothing from Fire Blast, and walls Brick Break effectively.

1st one:
350 Atk vs 317 Def & 401 HP (140 Base Power): 216 - 255 (53.87% - 63.59%)

Then an Earthquake:
326 Atk vs 219 Def & 401 HP (100 Base Power): 140 - 165 (34.91% - 41.15%)

If they have Stealth Rock up, you're dead.

The fact that a "counter" takes this much damage shows just how difficult it is to find one. Draco Meteor is just that rediculous. I think Cresselia, Registeel, and Regirock (w/Sandstorm support) are the only things that can take two hits and cripple/KO, but none of them are really used because of a lack of Recover/Wish...

------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, we're kind of using Salamence as a scapegoat for this generation's ridiculous power boosts. Many Pokemon in this generation are impossible to switch into safely, mostly due (in my opinion) to Draco Meteor, Close Combat, Life Orb, Stealth Rock support, or just expanded type coverage/movepool.

The four things underlined are some of the top reasons the phrase "counter" has been replaced with "check". Unlike in Advance, Salamence can't be countered with Bulky Waters because Life Orb Draco Meteor 2HKO's most of them. Lucario can't be countered with Skarmory because Life Orb Close Combat nearly 2HKO's with Stealth Rock.

The thing is, most solutions to Salamence and similar threats can only beat it when they switch in for free, not when they switch into an attack.That's why they're "checks", not counters.

In my humble 100-something post opinion, It's not just Salamence that's overpowered, it's 4th generation offense in general. It's not fair to single Salamence out, because we deal with other Pokemon by letting things faint and revenge killing, too. Name a 100% counter to Mixnite and Machamp that actually sees use in OU...
To be honest, the frustration of not being able to switch into things without dying is what's made me stop playing competitive for a while.

 

[Roizen]

@J-man,
You just gave half a dozen of examples to Luke's case. Mence has only two true revenge killers, and both of them can be trap killed. Crucial difference.

 

[Warped Worlds]

@Sebastian - Gengar better immunity's, better coverage, and has Explosion. It has niches. Starmie, its faster and resists Bullet Punch. Scarfed Ape and Azelf are completely viable, and so they are available. USE THEM, don't just complain about Mence. Use them, and if you cannot stop Mence... than you have a reason to complain. Try Cresselia, and Bronzong out. Bronzong has been very helpful to some of my teams, I can attest to it. Vaporeon is more of a check to Mixmence. Suicune is shaky yes, but its a check nonetheless. Crocune could counter it, but it suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome.

Just some food for thought. :)

 

[Roizen]

Last time I checked, the "use the obscure counter!!!" argument didn't save a pokémon's skin from the suspect test, or else we would have a metagame full of ScarfSuicunes and ScarfCresselias countering Chomp.

Hell, we are agreeing over the fact that Mence makes players use bizarre extreme tactics to not be swept by it. I'm not saying that Mence is uber because of that (even if it IS my personal opinion), I'm saying that it makes Mence a deserver of the test.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Last time I checked, the "use the obscure counter!!!" argument didn't save a pokémon's skin from the suspect test, or else we would have a metagame full of ScarfSuicunes and ScarfCresselias countering Chomp.

Hell, we are agreeing over the fact that Mence makes players use bizarre extreme tactics to not be swept by it. I'm not saying that Mence is uber because of that (even if it IS my personal opinion), I'm saying that it makes Mence a deserver of the test.

We were already over this. Age of Kings, and I covered this a couple of pages back. Mence is not Garchomp, look a couple of pages back.

It does not need bizzare tactics to counter, I just gave as many examples as possible. Stall teams are the most dominent team in the competitive OU metagame, and they DO NOT run Salamence. Salamence is their main bane. Seriously.. if Salamence was overpowered, we would not see stall nearly as much anymore when hovering on the top of the ladder.

 

[Nida]

In my humble 100-something post opinion, It's not just Salamence that's overpowered, it's 4th generation offense in general.

This.

Remember how ADV was all about switching? Stall was at an all-time high, even without SR, because of how effectively any given pokemon could be stopped short by a counter. Nowadays, we don't switch as often, instead stacking our sets with the broadest coverage we can find and relying on sometimes esoteric Hidden Powers to save our bacon in a tight spot.

 

[Roizen]

I didn'd say Mence is similar to Chomp. I said the situation is similar. Mence has bizarre checks? Of course, but all of the ubers have. That doesn't make any of them less uber.

Stall being dominant is your opinion, without any prove. I don't remember seeing a heavy stall in World Cup's Finals.

And damn, just remembered something random that I noticed a couple of days ago while I was team building. I was trying to make a nice defensive coverage against Mence on my stall team, so I looked at the whole smogon's RMT index (the topic with the best RMTs) of the platinum era after Latias unban to see what those teams had to take care of Mence. And lol, if I am not forgeting any, over half of them rely exclusively on Scizor to revenge DDMence. The others just lose to DDMence.

 

[Aquamentus]

Crocune could counter it

Wouldn't Crocune be using Surf, though? Unless you gave up your STAB move for Ice Beam to hit Salamence... which might be considered as gimmicky as using Scarf on it. I guess you kind of realize that, mentioning the moveslot problems. Surf/Ice Beam/Rest/Sleep Talk?

 

[Objection]

@J-man,
You just gave half a dozen of examples to Luke's case. Mence has only two true revenge killers, and both of them can be trap killed. Crucial difference.

Anything that can outspeed Salamence is a revenge killer (and, fyi, Scarf Ape is a good revenge killer for lots of stuff). Anything that can survive a hit from Salamence is a revenge killer (and, fyi, Bronzong makes a good meat shield). Anything with a priority attack is a revenge killer (Scizor, Lucario, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Weavile, etc.). And, let's face it, if your team has none of those, it's a shit team even in a metagame without Salamence.

 

[Warped Worlds]

I didn'd say Mence is similar to Chomp. I said the situation is similar. Mence has bizarre checks? Of course, but all of the ubers have. That doesn't make any of them less uber.

Stall being dominant is your opinion, without any prove. I don't remember seeing a heavy stall in World Cup's Finals.

This situation shouldn't even be going on to be honest, the situation is not similar. Garchomp overcentralized the Metagame, Salamence is more of a check to stall if anything.

Do you see any checks for Wobbufett running around? No, you do not.

Stall is dominent, even the Smog said it itself. When you hover at the top of the ladder, most of your matches are Stall simply because its the most reliable playing style available. Many of Smogon's best players run stall and are very successful with it. Jabba the Griffen, and Imperfect Luck are a couple of examples.

Offensive teams can beat stall yes, however Offensive teams depend on the most luck and the best players like to minimize that fact. Stall does not lose a game because because their Stone Edge missed, or their Draco Meteor didn't hit, Stall is all about momentum and keeping control from the start of the game. It simply works, and thats why it is dominent.

Using Magnezone simply isn't an argument for Scizor as well, it can just as easily take a Superpower to the face. Also, if you run HP Fire just for Scizor and Forretress, you are then walled by Gliscor and Swampert, so you rob Peter to pay Paul.

 

[Mariachi]

Anything that can outspeed Salamence is a revenge killer (and, fyi, Scarf Ape is a good revenge killer for lots of stuff). Anything that can survive a hit from Salamence is a revenge killer (and, fyi, Bronzong makes a good meat shield). Anything with a priority attack is a revenge killer (Scizor, Lucario, Mamoswine, Dragonite, Weavile, etc.). And, let's face it, if your team has none of those, it's a shit team even in a metagame without Salamence.

Are you saying then that all teams should have at least one scarfed pokemon or a priority move (Ice Shard) just for Salamence? I think no other pokemon in OU forces teams to carry an specific move or item to check them...
Also, no all stall teams can have an scarfed pokemon, and there is no safe switch into Mence, cause Bronzong, like in your example, is 2HKOed by the dragon...

Salamence for uber...

Just my 2 cents

 

[Roizen]

Yes, I run HP Fire on Zone just for Scizor, because Gliscor and Swampert are non-issues when I have Salamence, who sets up on the former and OHKOes the latter lol.

 

[Aquamentus]

there is no safe switch into Mence, cause Bronzong, like in your example, is 2HKOed by the dragon...

Salamence for uber...

Just my 2 cents

Well then, Dragonite for uber. Hell, it'd probably be more uber than Salamence if it was fast. Superpower for Steels and Blissey, Extremespeed for Ice Sharders (EDIT: After a DD, of course) and frail Scarfers, can't be Intimidated by Porygon2, takes less from Bullet Punch, and so on. This is the kind of thing I've been talking about: Why single out Salamence as uber-worthy when it's not unique in how hard it is to take out without sacrificing something? What's important is that Salamence usually dies quickly anyway, which means the metagame is keeping it in check. Don't like the steel-infested metagame? Ban all dragons except Altaria.

Are you saying then that all teams should have at least one scarfed pokemon or a priority move (Ice Shard) just for Salamence?

Yes, every team should have a scarfer or priority user, otherwise we'd auto-lose to any stat-boosting sweeper, DD Mence just being one of many. It's called a "revenge killer", and it gives us something to fall back on.

 

[MrIndigo]

Stall is dominent, even the Smog said it itself. When you hover at the top of the ladder, most of your matches are Stall simply because its the most reliable playing style available. Many of Smogon's best players run stall and are very successful with it. Jabba the Griffen, and Imperfect Luck are a couple of examples.

Offensive teams can beat stall yes, however Offensive teams depend on the most luck and the best players like to minimize that fact. Stall does not lose a game because because their Stone Edge missed, or their Draco Meteor didn't hit, Stall is all about momentum and keeping control from the start of the game. It simply works, and thats why it is dominent.

Smog also pointed out that this is only the case at the upper echelons of the ladder. From the middle-up, stall is much less effective because there are too many threats that need checking that don't show up often but destroy you when they do. Considering Stall to be metagame dominant by only looking at the top few players is slightly misleading because ladder interactions are more complicated than just "The best decks rise to the top" as you have with a point-win basis; you really need to be looking at the whole metagame when using ladder stats.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Are you saying then that all teams should have at least one scarfed pokemon or a priority move (Ice Shard) just for Salamence? I think no other pokemon in OU forces teams to carry an specific move or item to check them...
Also, no all stall teams can have an scarfed pokemon, and there is no safe switch into Mence, cause Bronzong, like in your example, is 2HKOed by the dragon...

I believe his point was if you don't have a scarfer or Priority move, you probably aren't doing very well with your team. (Although this is very untrue if you can grasp momentum and build a team which common threats cannot set up on.) Dragonite actually does the exact same thing Salamence does when DDing, so it would do the same thing.

To address your stall team point, Stall Teams work by not allowing threats to set up and by keeping momentum. They play around and use strategy. (I can't expand because I don't play stall often enough to do so. Ask a better player than I about it) And safe switch ins to Salamence are almost an irrelevant point. There is no safe switch in to Dragonite or Infernape, so should we ban them away to Ubers too?

Smog also pointed out that this is only the case at the upper echelons of the ladder. From the middle-up, stall is much less effective because there are too many threats that need checking that don't show up often but destroy you when they do. Considering Stall to be metagame dominant by only looking at the top few players is slightly misleading because ladder interactions are more complicated than just "The best decks rise to the top" as you have with a point-win basis; you really need to be looking at the whole metagame when using ladder stats.

Every stall team is extremely weak to something bizarre and random that no
good player would use.

Weak to something no good player would use, not to something uncommon that players still use (which is exactly what your post sounded like).

stall is superior after a person has eclipsed a conservative rating estimate of 1500, while before that CRE is reached

These two quotes show that Stall is superior, and if it is superior above the 1500 ranking (probably around 80, maybe 100) then it must be good. If Salamence were too threatening to it then it wouldn't be that high. And I'd say that looking below 1300-1400 for ladder stats is stupid, due to the fact there are so many un-used alts and multi-used alts that don't reach that high.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Are you saying then that all teams should have at least one scarfed pokemon or a priority move (Ice Shard) just for Salamence? I think no other pokemon in OU forces teams to carry an specific move or item to check them...
Also, no all stall teams can have an scarfed pokemon, and there is no safe switch into Mence, cause Bronzong, like in your example, is 2HKOed by the dragon...

Salamence for uber...

Just my 2 cents

When you make a successful team, you are forced to cover everything. Scarfed pokemon not only cover Mence, but a large portian of the OU metagame. Also, when you need a Lucario check, or a check for anything for that matter, usually that check does not only check that said thing, but a great amount of other things as well.

Yes, I run HP Fire on Zone just for Scizor, because Gliscor and Swampert are non-issues when I have Salamence, who sets up on the former and OHKOes the latter lol.

Well, didn't you read all my previous posts? Read them. =)

Also, Gliscor can Ice Fang/Stone Edge you. Swampert can Ice Beam you if you are foolish enough to set up on them. Assuming you are running the mixed set, than yes mixed wins, but seriously the mixed set can be checked.

Smog also pointed out that this is only the case at the upper echelons of the ladder. From the middle-up, stall is much less effective because there are too many threats that need checking that don't show up often but destroy you when they do. Considering Stall to be metagame dominant by only looking at the top few players is slightly misleading because ladder interactions are more complicated than just "The best decks rise to the top" as you have with a point-win basis; you really need to be looking at the whole metagame when using ladder stats.

I do realize that, and I just felt like pointing something out.

I do look at the whole OU metagame, as I did point out some stuff in my previous posts. What is your logic on why Mence is uber? I am very curious on why you think it is so hard to counter, and why you can't figure out a consistent way to beat it.

 

[Objection]

Are you saying then that all teams should have at least one scarfed pokemon or a priority move (Ice Shard) just for Salamence?

I love how you conveniently missed off the "bulky pokemon" part of my argument. Tell me, how do you expect to make a successful team with only slow, fragile pokemon, regardless of whether there is a Salamence in the metagame or not?

Note that I am not using this to argue for Salamence not being uber. I am simply disproving a point that was brought up several posts ago, which was that there are only a couple of pokemon (Scizor and Latias) that can revenge Salamence.

 

[Roizen]

Where did you disprove it? Seriously, explain better please, because as far as I can see, the fact that Scizor and Scarf Latias are the only answers to DDMence (answers that obviously can't switch in, so you really must wait until Mence rips a hole on your team by killing something) remain true. All that was used as arguments against this in this thread was obscure and non-used things like Cresselia, Ice Sharders and bizarre Scarfers that aren't better than Latias or Scizor and die to the same things (pursuit).

 

[Objection]

Where did you disprove it? Seriously, explain better please, because as far as I can see, the fact that Scizor and Scarf Latias are the only answers to DDMence (answers that obviously can't switch in, so you really must wait until Mence rips a hole on your team by killing something) remain true. All that was used as arguments against this in this thread was obscure and non-used things like Cresselia, Ice Sharders and bizarre Scarfers that aren't better than Latias or Scizor and die to the same things (pursuit).

Hey, you said revenge kill, and I told you a variety of pokemon (groups) that can revenge kill Salamence. Obscurity doesn't mean shit. Effectiveness is what matters, and if it scares out or kills DDMence, it's effective regardless of SR weak or Pursuit weak or any other random weak. Also, you haven't stated what a scarfer would need to be better than Latias or Scizor.

 

[Roizen]

Ok you edited your post while I was writing this. Mods can delete this post please. I will write another one, as someone already posted after me and it won't be double posting.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Where did you disprove it? Seriously, explain better please, because as far as I can see, the fact that Scizor and Scarf Latias are the only answers to DDMence (answers that obviously can't switch in, so you really must wait until Mence rips a hole on your team by killing something) remain true. All that was used as arguments against this in this thread was obscure and non-used things like Cresselia, Ice Sharders and bizarre Scarfers that aren't better than Latias or Scizor and die to the same things (pursuit).

You don't have to wait for Mence to rip a hole in your team lol.

Oh, and by the way, I've posted quite a few posts that explain what to do when facing Mence. Step One, stop thinking if you don't switch a counter in you lose the game. Step Two, stop thinking if you can't revenge kill it you've lost the game. Step three, learn that if your team is constantly allowing Salamence to set up or you can't play around it, your team is weak to two OU Pokemon.

Now, that shows a few things. You don't have to have a solid counter, or you wouldn't be able to beat Infernape. You can check it with a number of things (If you dare say Scarf Gengar is weaker than Scarf Latias I will require you give proof, and good proof damnit) and you can play around it. The goal of Pokemon isn't check and counter everything, it's to execute a strategy. Your team still, as I've stated before, isn't Mence Weak if it can't set up.

 

[Objection]

huh... what? I will try to remake my question.

You said you were disproving the fact that only Scizor and Latias can revenge Mence. But the fact the only them can revenge it remains true to me. All other examples brought up were awful and obscure things, so Scizor and Latias remain the ONLY viable options to revenge Mence. Do you really have any sort of argument to disprove it that does not involve Scarf Starmie and things below Top30?

Usage =/= effectiveness. Though a pokemon that is used a lot is normally a good one, just because something is obscure doesn't mean it's shit. I am sick and tired of seeing this mentality. Bronzong (sans scarf) is actually a good revenge killer to DDMence because DDMence won't OHKO it whereas Gyro Ball, after SR damage and one Life Orb recoil, probably will.

Incidentally, however, what pokemon are you going to accept as being good enough to use in standard play? Please list them.

 

[Roizen]

Yeah, there are bizarre exemples, as Electivire still being OU. We all know.

But the fact is that Scarf Azelf, Scarf Starmie and Scarf Gengar are all poorer alternatives to Scarf Latias because they all revenge kill the same things, with weaker moves, little difference in Satk, more frailty, and Speed differences that don't really matter. And they are all pursuit-bait. Not that being-pursuit bait is something as bad as having a x4 SR weak, for example, but if you are gonna use a pursuit-bait, at least use Latias that is the strongest among them. There is no real reason to use the others, bar exploding Azelf or very gimmicky things like destiny bonding with Gengar.

There are two ice sharders in OU: Mamoswine and Weavile. Both are dead-weight against stall, so Scizor easily outclasses them, as he can Uturn in the face of it's counters, while Mamo and Weavile must give free turns and are weaker to hazards than Scizor.

The only other remotely effective revenge killer of Salamence in OU is Infernape, which I actualy already used myself, as he has the rare ability of revenging Agiligross. But that's it. DDMence got two and a half viable revenge killers in high OU. Other things are just overcentralization.

 

[Objection]

So immunity to normal and fighting moves means jack shit, huh? Being faster than other scarf Latias means jack shit, huh? And tell me how Scizor "easily" outclasses Weavile when Weavile is faster (so doesn't need to rely on priority half as much as Scizor) with better offensive typing. Similarly, Mamoswine gets a STAB combo resisted only by Bronzong in OU, plus immunity to Thunder Wave, which Scizor absolutely loathes, so I don't see Scizor outclassing Mamoswine either.

Besides, as I said before, not highly used does not always mean crap or 100% outclassed. Hell, if people thought that UUs were worthless on an OU team, Aerodactyl and Roserade would never have become OU. If you're only willing to use the predictable standards (do not say "standards are standards because they're good") and refuse to think a little more outside the box, then good luck getting anywhere on any ladder, regardless of what pokemon are available and which ones are banned.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Yeah, there are bizarre exemples, as Electivire still being OU. We all know.

But the fact is that Scarf Azelf, Scarf Starmie and Scarf Gengar are all poorer alternatives to Scarf Latias because they all revenge kill the same things, with weaker moves, little difference in Satk, more frailty, and Speed differences that don't really matter. And they are all pursuit-bait. Not that being-pursuit bait is something as bad as having a x4 SR weak, for example, but if you are gonna use a pursuit-bait, at least use Latias that is the strongest among them. There is no real reason to use the others, bar exploding Azelf or very gimmicky things like destiny bonding with Gengar.

Really? Really?? Gengar can do >50% to almost every top ten OU Pokemon with Shadow Ball alone. It's also got the same speed as Latias and has more special attack. I think 20 base stats ( a 54 point difference) isn't something you say is negligible. Latias is not the strongest by any means. It may be the best specially defensively, maybe. Not the strongest over all. Again, Starmie revenge kills all scarfers up to base 115, which there aren't any at base 115, meaning it can even help against other scarfers ! No speed ties ! Jesus, you act like Latias is a god or something.

There are two ice sharders in OU: Mamoswine and Weavile. Both are dead-weight against stall, so Scizor easily outclasses them, as he can Uturn in the face of it's counters, while Mamo and Weavile must give free turns and are weaker to hazards than Scizor.

Mamoswine isn't outclassed in any way by Scizor lol. They do different things. Not to mention Mamoswine has stronger STAB in Earthquake. Scizor doesn't always U-turn either. You might get outpredicted! Imagine that, not having the perfect prediction you're pretending to have. And in those cases, when Scizor is locked into a move it doesn't want to use, you may have given up the game. And again, Mamoswine can do different things, and lol Scizor is no better against Stall than Mamoswine as far as I can tell.

The only other remotely effective revenge killer of Salamence in OU is Infernape, which I actualy already used myself, as he has the rare ability of revenging Agiligross. But that's it. DDMence got two and a half viable revenge killers in high OU. Other things are just overcentralization.

You really need to either play more or think outside of the box. I've already shown how the other revenge killers are useful, and you're giving me more here. ScarfMie can probably take on Agiligross too, but I dunno.