Salamence vs. Dragonite...

[blasphemy1]

Which is better?

We all know that Salamence is used more often than Dragonite, but which one is better?

When looking at stats, it appears that Salamence overpowers Dragonite when it comes to using Choice items, such as Choice Specs or Choice Band. Salamence also has Intimidate to work with, while Dragonite only has Inner Focus, which is only useful for those Ambipom's Fake Outs. However, there is more to pokemon than just stats and ability, and amongst these things are movepool.

When speaking of movepool, Dragonite outclasses Salamence entirely, with access to Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Heal Bell, Safeguard, Fire Punch, ThunderPunch, Focus Punch, Outrage, Reflect, etc.

Seemingly people don't understand how Dragonite may be superior to Salamence. When comparing their special attacking stats, Salamence outclasses Dragonite with Specs until you see the differences in movepool. They both get Draco Meteor, the core of their sets. Dragonite has lower special attack, so it can't OHKO Gyarados switchins, BUT, it gets Thunderbolt to destroy it and other waters, such as Empoleon, one of SpecsMence's counters. A few common switchins to SpecsMence are Empoleon, Blissey, and Cradily. Fortunately for Dragonite, it gets Focus Punch to deal with these, easily OHKOing Empoleon and Cradily, while nearly OHKOing Bold Blissey. Looks like Dragonite is more unpredictable.

When it comes to Choice Band, I haven't seen enough people use CB Dragonite, who is in every way stronger than its cousin, Salamence, again, because of its punches. Dragonite outdamages Salamence in this department, with STAB Outrage outclassing Dragon Claw, making Dragonite's STAB more powerful despite the lower attack stat. Combined with Focus Punch, nothing can safely switch in. While CBMence must rely on Flamethrower/Fire Blast to 2HKO Skarmory, Dragonite has access to Fire Punch, which also 2HKOs Bronzong, something CBMence fails to do. Or, Dragonite can use ThunderPunch to hit Skarmory AND Suicune for a 2HKO, something Salamence will never be able to do.

The final set I believe outclasses Salamence is the DDer. Salamence gets more chances and can put more EVs into HP due to its higher base speed, but Dragonite can utilize a very nice combination of DD / Outrage / Yache Berry, simply destroying any bulky water/ground in the way, and ensuring your opponent has either another counter or a steel. Magnezone solves the steel problem no worry, which also allows Salamence to use Rock Slide instead of Flamethrower, beating up Zapdos and Gyarados handily. Well, Dragonite gets Stone Edge and Thunder/Thunderbolt to handle these two, with the electric move only hitting Gyarados harder than Outrage. The only reason I could see anyone using Salamence for DDing would be abusing Intimidate and Roost.

Next, Dragonite has a huge support movepool with Reflect, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Safeguard, etc. making it worthwhile on any team.

Quite simply the only set that may outclass Dragonite is the MixMence, virtue of Salamence's higher speed and attacking stats, and Crunch hitting ghosts without Draco Meteor lowering the Special Attack.

I am just completely puzzled as to how Salamence is still used more often than Dragonite, simply because of 10 more special attack, 20 more speed, and Intimidate. Remember, Dragonite is bulkier, making speed not matter, even tho his is quite adequate. Another thing, he gets Focus Punch, making SpecsMence look weaker by the moment. Intimidate is truly the only advantage, but that extra special defense makes sweeping much easier.

Please post your own opinion on this battle of dragons.

 

[munchlaxus]

Dragonite has a way better movepool but people see the higher attack & speed of salamence and just assume that he is better. Personally I like Dragonite more than salamence but salamence has become a favorite of many people.

 

[Stagnant]

Well as I see it most teams use roles. X is my Physical Wall, Y is my Special Wall, and Z is for when 'the shit hits the fan'. Though not all teams use them. But with that said i think it comes down to who can hit and run the best. As you said Mence is the better Choice user.I personally would use Dragonite over Mence but neither play into my particular style.

 

[UltimoVenusaur]

Yeah, Dragonite seems a lot more versatile to me, especially on the special side. I'm raising a few of them, and I already have one finished product, a Choice Scarf Special Dragonite

Dragonite @ Choice Scarf
Modest, 252 SpA and Spe
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt

Great type coverage although it lacks the pure power of Draco Meteor.

 

[Jibaku]

Which is better?

What kind of question is this?

There are reasons why people play as Sally and there are some that will make people play as Dragonite. There is no clear "better" one. Apples vs oranges much?

 

[stormtrooper]

Salamence is definitely "better" the 20 more base speed makes a huge difference especially with a dragon dance set where salamence can actually outspeed base 130's like Aerodactyl,and Jolteon while still being adamant,but even jolly dragonite has less then 260 speed . Specs mence also hits slightly harder with draco meteor, than dragonite. Mixmence is also a favorite of mine because it has brick break to 2ohko blissey and draco meteor hurts anything else, but dragonite only has focus punch which takes a lot of prediction and cant be used twice in a row sucessfully. dragonite does get outrage and better special attacks like thunder and ice beam but that speed is very important to me at least. intimidate gives mence better physical defense i think but dragonite has better special defense of course. The elemental punches are not to useful imo they only have 75 power, and the support moves are nice but again not useful.

p.s. Garchomp is the best dragon everyone knows that

 

[Lyfsaho]

What Jibaku said. "Which is better?" is a completely subjective question, and dependso on your definition of better.

If you want to remain objective and go by the statistics and the philosophy we go by, then Salamence would be far "better" - 10th most used pokemon in May to Dragonite's meager 44th.

 

[Gaborik]

Salamence has Intimidate and Dragonite does not which is a big factor right there that you try and downplay, but it can help save games along with a superior speed stat off the getgo. You don't see bulky dragonites running around but my stall team features a 252 HP, 160 Def, 96 Speed Timid Nature Salamence running Dragon Dance/Roost/Dragon Claw/Earthquake which works wonderfully as a defensive pokemon coupled with Intimidate on the swap in and can clean up pieces of the other team amazingly well. Sure, Salamence doesn't have the sheer power of a Dragon Dance then Outrage combination, but he does still has the superior ability and stats (base speed helps him hit 280+ numbers which seem to be crucial these days with Lucario's/Heatrans/etc that can run around those speeds) placed to be a DD threat, CSpecs threat, Defensive support, etc.

The main thing is that they just don't compare straight up and can be used in different ways. They are completely different pokemon even if at the surface they appear quite similar. You try to downplay Salamence ability, but it is arguably one of the best in the game, and his higher base speed allows him more flexibility in his natures to achieve more desirable results with different sets.

 

[UltimoVenusaur]

but dragonite only has focus punch

Dragonite also gets Brick Break.

 

[Syberia]

Salamence has Intimidate. I tend to use it defensively, with its nice Fighting/Bug/Fire resists, access to Roost, and access to Dragon Dance to clean up late-game.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

If you think of it this way, Dragonite is to Salamence as Blaziken is to Infernape. While the former Pokes do have nice movepools and stats that are comparable to the former, but that speed means all the difference in the world..or rather Pokeworld.

 

[Janenmori]

Dragonite can support, which is something Salamence cannot, and that is the only thing that it can do that Salamence cannot.

 

[Pyong]

If you think of it this way, Dragonite is to Salamence as Blaziken is to Infernape. While the former Pokes do have nice movepools and stats that are comparable to the former, but that speed means all the difference in the world..or rather Pokeworld.

Not in this case. Both have acess do dragon dance, so 20 base speed isn't really a problem. Both have some god points, and like Jibaku said, it's just personal preference.
You can say "dragonite must be jolly if he wants to outspeed <pokémon>", but remember: dragonite loses in attack, but wons in Base power (outrage)
Edit:

Dragonite can support, which is something Salamence cannot, and that is the only thing that it can do that Salamence cannot.

Dragon Dance outrage isn't something that salamence can't do?

 

[Astamatitos]

Dragonite's pros over Salamence
Focus Punch, Heal bell, Ice beam, Thunderbolt, Special Defense that allows it to survive Ice beam with ease, better Scarf moveset, surprise factor.
Does the all out physical attacker role better since nothing really survives a +1 Life Orbed Outrage/Fire Punch/Earthquake coming from such high base stat.

Salamence's pros over Dragonite
Intimidate & Higher Speed that easily allows to get on 270 the magic number to outspeed a bunch of things with a +1 boost. This pros also make him a better late game cleaner since Intimidate provides it the turn it needs to get a Dragon Dance up, and since it has higher speed not many things can stop it.
Roost also works better on Salamence, again with it's trait providing it the defense it needs.

Personally, Dragonite is my favorite Pokemon, i have worked on it a lot in both ADV and D/P and the results were impressive for me. The reason Salamence is more popular is that it fits easier in most teams rather than Dragonite. Dragonite needs a team with great synergy in order for it to work in it's full potential whereas Salamence can fill the niche of a special attacker or a physical cleaner on most teams.

 

[Jeo]

. The elemental punches are not to useful imo they only have 75 power

I disagree on this. That's 5 more power than any Hidden Power. HP is recommended for type coverage on several pokemon despite its 70 power. The Elemental punches can also cause their respective statuses.

Dismissing the elemental punches from Dnite's advantages based on 75 power is pretty foolish imo.

 

[Taylor]

Dragon Dance outrage isn't something that salamence can't do?

No, because Salamence doesn't have access to Outrage.

We won't find the 'best' simply through listing out both of the Dragon-types' positive and negative aspects. To be the 'best', do you mean outclass the opposition in every aspect? Or, have more featured qualities than the other?

Dragonite and Salamence aren't a couple where one is superior to the other entirely, so that would lead me to believe that the latter question is what we're trying to answer. However we will never find a better of the two, because both individuals serve better in different situations on different teams.

Therefore you can't have a 'better' in regards to both Salamence and Dragonite.

 

[sandman]

I am just completely puzzled as to how Salamence is still used more often than Dragonite, simply because of 10 more special attack, 20 more speed, and Intimidate.

just looking at that comment.

 

[Pyong]

No, because Salamence doesn't have access to Outrage.

I said "Dragon Dance outrage isn't something that salamence can't do?", i never said "dragon dance outrage isn't something that salamence CAN do?"

 

[Olie]

lol
Salamence sees more use mainly cause of intimidate(which works very well defensively)and: Draco Meteor on a Specs Set is... yeah.
That's not to say Dragonite is bad altogether. I've tried it out... worked fine, but Intimidate is definately one of Salamence's main qualities that makes it a popular choice.

 

[kamikaen]

Apples vs oranges much?

More like Granny Smith vs. Spartan (not the people, the apples :P). The extra movepool Dragonite has isn't worth much on a Specs set, as Empoleon isn't common enough to warrant a moveslot. Focus Punch seems nice, but Dragonite doesn't effectively lure out Blissey (it's not like Salamence can't get past her, anyway). Garchomp is generally a better Outrage user, but I guess the DD+Outrage set is something only Dragonite can do. Really, though, Intimidate is the nail in Dragonite's coffin.

Edit: Obviously, if you need a more powerful endgame sweeper instead of an endgame sweeper that can contribute earlier on with Intimidate, you'll go with Dragonite, and visa versa, so you should choose which to use depending on the team, but generally, Salamence outclasses Dragonite. The general Shoddy-playing public agrees.

 

[Brawley]

No, because Salamence doesn't have access to Outrage.

We won't find the 'best' simply through listing out both of the Dragon-types' positive and negative aspects. To be the 'best', do you mean outclass the opposition in every aspect? Or, have more featured qualities than the other?

Dragonite and Salamence aren't a couple where one is superior to the other entirely, so that would lead me to believe that the latter question is what we're trying to answer. However we will never find a better of the two, because both individuals serve better in different situations on different team.

Therefore you can't have a 'better' in regards to both Salamence and Dragonite.

I completely agree with this, however I like using dragonite over mence, but that's another story. ;p

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Hello,

I personally like using Dragonite over Salamence due to the flexibility and the potential for Dragon+Outrage to shut out an opponent once you effectively attack the likely counters.

However, its hard to deny that Salamence is the easier pokemon to use. The higher base speed and Intimidate has to be part of the reason that Salamence has higher usage than Dragonite.

If you really like Dragonite, keeps working on movesets for him. He has amazing coverage and I've long suspected that there has to be a better set for him than the Outrage/DD=Game set... I just haven't found it yet.

 

[Kietharr]

Dragonite has dd Outrage going for him, being the only pokemon capable of doing it. He also has some very interesting options such as Agility, and a much larger special movepool than salamence. Salamence still pulls off specs/band and other zero setup offense sets off better though, and arguably he pulls off DD sets better because there are still some important things that outspeed dragonite after a dance.

He also boasts a pretty big support movepool, but can't really abuse it with mediocre defensive stats and a major x4 weakness. He's the least used of the base 600 dragons for a reason unfortunately.

 

[Blln]

Dragonite has dd Outrage going for him, being the only pokemon capable of doing it.

Actually, Rayquaza, Tyranitar, and Charizard can all DD + Outrage, but that's just being nitpicky. Dragonite still is the only OU pokemon that can use DD + STAB Outrage.

Anyway, I agree that Salamence is better on the whole, but Dragonite does have it's merits. A set like Substitute / Focus Punch / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast or some other mixed attacking set with Focus Punch can be incredibly difficult to wall without something like Cresselia. There's also DD + Outrage, which, if you can manage to pull it off, can be incredibly deadly. Mostly I guess the reason Dragonite is so unused is that Salamence usually looks much more appealling. When you have Salamence on your team, even an offensive Salamence, you are providing yourself with some additional coverage against things like Heracross and Lucario. Dragonite, lacking Intimidate and being so much slower, usually doesn't contribute enough to the team as a whole to warrant a slot.

 

[Tracker]

Dragonite has dd Outrage going for him, being the only pokemon capable of doing it.

Rayquaza does that too.

The "which is better" question assumes that both function the same way. Pokemon is a metagame that changes, therefore it becomes a void question because you aren't factoring in different situations. You are essentially trying to generalize 2 pokemon into inflexible roles.