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Salamence vs. Dragonite...

It's simple, really. Salamence has 10 more Special Attack, an actually useful trait, and higher Speed. With the same moveset, Salamence is better. The only reason to use Dragonite is if you want to take non-Ice Special hits better or the awesome DD / Outrage combo, or use his wide selection of Special attacks or support.
 
Salamence isn't "better," because they are both played differently. Salamence works well with his ability and ability to hit harder initially, but Dragonite is the superior Dragon Dancer because Outrage makes world of difference in base power. Dragonite is a far more effective Choice Bander because Outrage just fucks shit up, but Salamence is a deadlier Choice Specs user because of intimidate and higher special attack. Really, I wouldn't compare the two. Anything with DD or CB I personally found Dragonite to be "better." For support or quick heavy hits, Salamence gets the job done also. Dragonite has some useful support options though that should not be overlooked that he plays extremely well. In fact, I ran a bulky Dragonite support set. I think I will post it in the creative moveset thread.
 
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before. I have, and always will be, a stong supporter and user of Dragonite but does that make him the best? Of course not. I have developed strategies and play methods that have allowed me to use Dragonite in the it's special niches in the changing metagames. Would DDSalamence perform better for me? Well, I haven't really tried it extensively but it was no where near as successful as DDNite in my case. When it comes to just about every other set besides the Dragon Dance one, Salamence generally is a more versatile poke due to its much higher speed and intimidate which is what makes it more used. There are many other points that have already been made in this thread but Dragonite really only ends up being used by those few that have used Dragonite since the beginning.
 
Dragonite has one thing that Salamence really needs - you usually know salamence's moveset in 1-2 turns.

Draggy, on the other hand, can just slap 4 moves together for the most part and make it work...


Heh, I remember my first night on shoddy - I did dragon dance @Yache draggy with 3 unorthodox moves. Quite surprising to be honest.

Then, an hour later, i switched that to agility @Life orb, and ran outrage. they thought i was going for something else.

About 2 hours after that, I refaced a few people - they were either expecting the dd or agility, when I ran a fisher set - Rest/Sleep Talk/Heal Bell/Dragon Pulse (yeah, that was surprising to them), and that screwed them over nicely.


For sala, it only has these moves that work...
~Draco Meteor
~Dragon Dance
~Dragon Claw
~Flamethrower
~Brick Break
~Crunch
~Stone Edge
~EQ
~Roost (rarely)
~Thunder/Fire Fang


Draggy has this, and more - Focus Punch for Blissey, Haze, Heal Bell, Agility, Outrage, T-bolt, Ice Beam (Frz hax anyone?), etc.
 
It's very difficult to say which one is totally better than the other. Maybe Salamence is preferred because he has Intimidate, a trait that has proven to be one of the best out of the whole bunch, quite useful when leading. It is also a fact that people like offense more than defense, and Salamence is more explosive when it comes to deal damage.

I don't know, I do prefer Salamence and have a defensive style of play, but I can't see why he would be utterly superior to his winged brother. /=
 
To give you an honest and simple answer, Salamence is used more than Dragonite because it is much easier to use Salamence effectively then Dragonite.
 
Salamence has 20 more base speed than Dragonite (100 versus 80), which means a whole lot since Salamence can outspeed a lot of pokemon around that range, notable examples include Gyarados, Heracross and Lucario.

The key factor here is Intimidate, which gives Salamence a lot of free switchins, which makes it much more effective at performing its task. The higher speed also allows Salamence to start attacking once it switches in and not rely on Dragon Dancing to boost its speed.

So that basically sums up my point, higher Speed and Intimidate.
 
Pyong said:
Not in this case. Both have acess do dragon dance, so 20 base speed isn't really a problem. Both have some god points, and like Jibaku said, it's just personal preference.
You can say "dragonite must be jolly if he wants to outspeed <pokémon>", but remember: dragonite loses in attack, but wons in Base power (outrage)
Edit:
Dragon Dance outrage isn't something that salamence can't do?
Click to expand...

Question: Who wants to Dragon Dance Outrage?

How many Sword Dance Outrage Garchomps do you see compared to Choice + Outrage or Dragon Claw + Swords Dance?

People generally don't like getting locked into a move once they've gone through the trouble of setting up. With the amount of power salamence (or Dragonite I guess) wield after a dragon dance, Dragon Claw alone goes a very long way, especially when you can switch to another move as that steel type switches in.

Not to mention that in terms of the late-game sweep when those steel types are gone, Scarf Chomp just does it better . . .
 
Dragonite is bulky and has a wider move pool especially the elemental punches and focus punch, on the other hand Salamence has Intimidate higher Atk(slightly), Sp.A and Spe. For sweeping Salamence is much easier to set up, one DD you outrun many Pokemon that are not scarfed or named Ninjask/Deoxys-S, while Dragonite needs a Jolly nature, at least 2DDs to be more powerful/faster than +1Atk/Spe Mence. Yache Berry/defenses can help but with Outrage in your way some people prefer to use Lum/Persim Berry. I like Dragonite and Salamence, but prefer Dragonite and have found the Agility set to be useful to out pace many things *Even though there's Fire Blast for him and Forretress/Skarm..etc Outrage 2KOes Scizor..lol*.
 
The point of DD+Outrage is simply to clean up in late game where Dragon Claw may not provide that extra punch. I've turned around 1-4s with a Lum Berry DDNite to actually win the match. If used right, the extra power of Outrage really helps to get you out of some tight spots. Lum Berry is almost a necessity for such sweeps but it is hard to setup now with all of the ice attacks aimed at Garchomp making Yache Berry the item to use.
 
ChouToshio said:
Question: Who wants to Dragon Dance Outrage?

How many Sword Dance Outrage Garchomps do you see compared to Choice + Outrage or Dragon Claw + Swords Dance?

People generally don't like getting locked into a move once they've gone through the trouble of setting up. With the amount of power salamence (or Dragonite I guess) wield after a dragon dance, Dragon Claw alone goes a very long way, especially when you can switch to another move as that steel type switches in.

Not to mention that in terms of the late-game sweep when those steel types are gone, Scarf Chomp just does it better . . .
Click to expand...

ScarfChomp is relatively weak, and I don't really think it is the dilemma of Garchomp > Dragonite. Garchomp typically runs Swords Dance + Outrage = Yache Berry in my experience rather than Dragon Claw or a choice item. Without Outrage you won't beat the likes of Hippowdon, Suicune, and other established physical walls that could KO you after the Yache Berry.

I guess Salamence is just the easier choice, tho I do think that when played right, Dragonite has more potential.
 
While both hold plenty of power, I personally preffer Dragonite, beeing able to survive a non-STABed Ice Beam, a battle option Salamance would be happy to dream of.
 
salamence has better defense by virtue of intimidate. Dragonites higher special defense means nothing when at least 3/4 of special attackers carry an ice attack. I love Dragonite and I've used it with success, but you can't just ignore it's flaws and say it's better than mence and chomp. Mence and chomp both got very good abilities, and low stats where they didn't need them (chomps base 80 sp atk and mences base 80 defences).
If nites spread had been something more like 80/134/110/136/60/80, or if it had had a better ability like guts(not an impossiblity for it to happen in the next Gen IV games), it might have been more versatile like it's cousins. But right now nite only has one good set.

Dragonite users need to stick with DDRage. It's a great set that makes dragonite playable. BOAHnite is a failed concept because Blisseys carry Ice Beam for Garchomp(an ironic carry over from ADV when blisseys needed IB for McGar). Any kind of defensive dragonite is brought down by it's weakness to the omnipresent ice. Special Dragonites are outclassed by salemence and it's superior speed, sp atk and switchability, the three of which boltbeam and focus punch do not compensate for. Scarfnite could be usable, but it would basically be a copy of scarfchomp.
 
ChouToshio said:
Question: Who wants to Dragon Dance Outrage?

How many Sword Dance Outrage Garchomps do you see compared to Choice + Outrage or Dragon Claw + Swords Dance?

People generally don't like getting locked into a move once they've gone through the trouble of setting up. With the amount of power salamence (or Dragonite I guess) wield after a dragon dance, Dragon Claw alone goes a very long way, especially when you can switch to another move as that steel type switches in.

Not to mention that in terms of the late-game sweep when those steel types are gone, Scarf Chomp just does it better . . .
Click to expand...

With dragon claw, you don't stand a chance of OHKO starmie if you don't wield a life orb, you can't 2HKO swampert(ice beam is a 2HKO)...i think you got the point.
Lum berry isn't the only option. Yachenite works like yachechomp(try to stop a +2 atk +2 speed dragonite)
 
I'm not going to make a long explanation as I'm pretty sure any and every major point has already been posted by an earlier user.

Both Pokemon are great, however, Salamence is much easier to use than Dragonite.

They way I look at it, Salamence is easily the more sweeping-oriented of the two. Now someone tell me, is it really that difficult to use a sweeper with that Atk/SpA and Speed? This reason alone probably makes him the more immediately appealing of the two (of course, this extends off into Choice sets, DD, etc).

In the right situation, however, Dragonite is probably the more dangerous, with an extremely unpredictable movepool and bulky stats. Once your opponent sees you're using a SpecsMence, Blissey (and Empoleon, to a lesser extent) become the first thought to mind when you need to handle it. Unlike Salamence, Dragonite can handle these switch-ins with Focus Punch, assuming you know that these Pokemon exist on your opponent's team.

Like I said, Dragonite is far more dangerous in the right situation, but finding that situation is rather difficult. Thankfully, luring out Blissey isn't a very difficult job.

Several people here are undermining Salamence's better Speed stat. That Speed is actually quite significant, as it means Salamence can outspeed more (making him more adept as a sweeper) and makes it actually worthwhile to invest a large amount of Speed EVs.


I guess I turned this into something decently long as I said I wouldn't. XP

In the end, however, I really think it comes down to:
Movepool/Defensive possibilites and Ability/Raw Sweeping ability.

It all comes down more to what your team specifically needs.
 
As several people have mentioned, Dragonite is a lot harder to use than salamence. Also, Salamence gets intimidate, which means prediction is not as essential in getting it in. On the other hand, Dragonite is bulkier and is capable of running a support set and gets that lovely DD + Outrage combo.

It really depends because, as previous posters have said, it comes down to what role you want it to play in your team.
 
DD Outrage is just really ineffective. Even when they get it up, i let them kill something and stick Heatran in their Face or Scizor to set up and pass. Its set up bait for steels
 
Puggy said:
To give you an honest and simple answer, Salamence is used more than Dragonite because it is much easier to use Salamence effectively then Dragonite.
Click to expand...
I agree with this point above all, and to present the postulation that, simply, most players also prefer instant gratification.

To reiterate many points, people choose Salamence because it has "options", but all of those "options" are completely obvious! Let's see, there's Specsmence, Mixmence, sometimes DDMence and BulkyMence, all with the same typical movesets. They like Salamence because it fits the generic OU sweeper criteria: fast and hard-hitting (see instant gratification above). Because people use Dragonite less often, Dragonite can throw one crucial element out the window: prediction. Salamence switches in, Intimidate activates, uses X, or maybe before it even uses X, the opponent can guess what it does based on other team members, and its usefulness ends there because the opponent already can figure out how to counter it, unless it's very late in the match. Dragonite, on the other hand, can support the team or set up while the opponent is left in a rut. 4 less points of HP only affect Substitute and Lefties, but I can guarantee you that if it weren't for Intimidate, BulkyMence would be rendered obsolete. Although Dragonite can both PHaze and Haze. I also agree it's like comparing apples and oranges: obviously, you would play something with base 80 speed differently than a base 100 counterpart. Unfortunately, this limbo of bulky sweepers vs. pure offensive teams have trapped Dragonite from seeing more use. Such a shame, because one of the very few things I like about OU is seeing a Dragonite player kick ass. I could see it functioning with a set like Heal Bell/Roost/DD/Dragon Claw that can devastate teams if the opponent's Steels are dead, but you guys can come up with better sets than me. And probably better points because I don't play OU.
 
My favorite Dragonite set:

Dragonite @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Inner Focus
172 Spe / 220 Atk / 112 SpA
Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Earthquake / Thunderbolt

I suppose Salamence would work too, but I really prefer Dragonite because of his access to Outrage. I originally tried this on Garchomp (or a slight variation of it; the core of the set was still Draco Meteor/Outrage), but I found that Garchomp's Draco Meteor was far too weak and Dragonite was mor successful.
 
Dragonite may have that huge movepool, yet for some reason every time I see one it is always DD/Outrage/Fire Punch/EQ @ Yache Berry. Dragonite has the movepool to be unpredictable, but Salamence has better stats for it. Salamence hits hard enough from both sides of the spectrum to negate Dragonite's movepool advantage. Who cares that Dragonite can use Thunderbolt to hit Suicune when I can just use a more powerful Draco Meteor? Why bother using Focus Punch when Salamence's Brick Break is going to do the same thing, 2HKO Blissey?

Plus, Intimidate is much better than people are giving it credit for. It lets Salamence actually come into a physical attack even if SR is down. If you can switch in unharmed, you are automatically more effective than something that is taking huge chunks of damage. When someone switches their Salamence into my CBHeracross' Close Combat, I am switching out no matter what, even if SR is up. If someone brings Dragonite into my CB CC, I am staying in for the easy 2HKO if my SR up. Big difference.

Also, as Aeroblacktyl pointed out, speed is everything.
 
Salamence also has the speed to outrun and kill that same Heracross. Most Dragonites that sit around 240-244 cannot.
 
But surely Salamence's Intimidate is why we consider Salamence as one of the rare Hercaross counters in the first place. I'm certain that if Intimidate wasn't Salamence's trait, we wouldn't even consider it to be a reasonable Heracross counter. If Dragonite was awarded with a respectable 100 Base Speed, I wouldn't mark it for the ability to outspeed Heracross.
 
Salamence is used more because it has Intimidate and MUCH more efficiently distributed stats.

The Speed and Special Attack advantage FAR OUTWEIGH any advantages Dragonite might have in the Defense and Special Defense stats. Note that what 2HKOes Salamence generally still 2HKOes Dragonite, and what OHKOes Salamence generally OHKOes Dragonite unless Dragonite has a ridiculous amount of defensive EVs, which of course usually centralizes its purpose too much.

The only reason to use Dragonite over Salamence is Outrage and Thunder Wave + Heal Bell...but honestly other Pokemon can do the last two much more effectively (read: Blissey).

Salamence's Intimidate and much higher Speed allow for it to effectively make use of the BulkyMence concept, something Dragonite cannot do as effectively.

And due to its higher Special Attack, it can also OHKO a majority of the metagame with its Specs set, something Dragonite cannot boast.

Dragonite is used less because, frankly, its advantages over Salamence really aren't that great. Sure, its nice getting one Dragon Dance and then Outraging...but then Deoxys-S, ScarfChomp, in fact any Scarfer with moderate speed and HP Ice / Ice Beam, just come in and kill you. This revenge killing scenario is relevent because of how common it is.

Also, I'm not going to lie...that ScarfDragonite made me chuckle a little.
 
Aldaron said:
And due to its higher Special Attack, it can also OHKO a majority of the metagame with its Specs set, something Dragonite cannot boast.
Click to expand...

Yeah, because 110 is such a huge advantage over a 100 base stat. 110 destroys everything in its path, but 100 is really sort of "meh".

Also, I'm not going to lie...that ScarfDragonite made me chuckle a little.
Click to expand...

If I were more petty, I would probably say something along the lines of "says the person who brought us Technician Hitmontop", but instead, I've decided to say

"What about it made you chuckle exactly? I've used it thoroughly and it's viable."
 
Pretty much like it has been said before, both pokemon have their things, one of them having a handy movepool with support moves, and the other one having Intimidate being able to switch in to some Physical pokemon with handy resistances, but both pokemon have good stats, which makes them both incomparable.
 
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