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Salamence
- Thread starter Aerrow
- Start date
If you keep Stealth Rock off, it is easy to continuallly use Multi-Scale and there are enough slow things to get Roost off of on. Multi-Scale Dragonite is incredibly useful. And Multi-Scale Dragonite I am fairly sure has been released. Salamence is useful too, it's just you seem to have something against Multi-Scale Dragonite. In most situations I find Dragonite better but Salamence is awesome too with Wish and Intimidate.
It's been out for a couple of months hasn't it??
Multi-Scale Dragonite has been released, but I still find Salamence to be superior in offensive roles.
Let's face it, 134/100/80, while good, simply does not match 135/110/100. It can't do it. Salamence's mixed set hits much harder on both ends, and outspeeds a plethora of threats for the KO that Dragonite can only hope to chip away at with Extremespeed when they come in to revenge.
Salamence's DD set is much more terrifying than Dragonite's, even with Multi-Scale, because Dragonite isn't always keeping it intact. It has to come into either a support move while Rocks/Sand aren't in play, or a ground move, which have become relatively scarce given the popularity of balloon. Moreover, DDNite needs to use Roost somewhere on the set to take advantage of its higher bulk and ability, otherwise it is simply failing to do anything better than Salamence.
Finally, Mence does have a Wishpassing niche. Event Salamence provides that crucial team support with Wish and is actually capable of using Dragon Tail as well, which it does effectively given the switches it forces due to Intimidate and the threat of a LO Draco Meteor or Dragon Dance.
What I don't understand is that, now that the two have finally been differentiated substantially, people are still trying to compare the two...it's like comparing Salamence to Garchomp.
Let's face it, 134/100/80, while good, simply does not match 135/110/100. It can't do it. Salamence's mixed set hits much harder on both ends, and outspeeds a plethora of threats for the KO that Dragonite can only hope to chip away at with Extremespeed when they come in to revenge.
Salamence's DD set is much more terrifying than Dragonite's, even with Multi-Scale, because Dragonite isn't always keeping it intact. It has to come into either a support move while Rocks/Sand aren't in play, or a ground move, which have become relatively scarce given the popularity of balloon. Moreover, DDNite needs to use Roost somewhere on the set to take advantage of its higher bulk and ability, otherwise it is simply failing to do anything better than Salamence.
Finally, Mence does have a Wishpassing niche. Event Salamence provides that crucial team support with Wish and is actually capable of using Dragon Tail as well, which it does effectively given the switches it forces due to Intimidate and the threat of a LO Draco Meteor or Dragon Dance.
What I don't understand is that, now that the two have finally been differentiated substantially, people are still trying to compare the two...it's like comparing Salamence to Garchomp.
I agree with most of this, except where you say Salamence outclasses Dragonite as a mixed sweeper. Dragonite, while having a bit lower offensive stats, has a wider movepool, most notably superpower and extremespeed. True, superpower does require inner focus, but it hits blissey and chansey for for an easy ohko. I'm not sure about pory2, but no intimidate is also a plus. And superpower>EQ is a good choice imo, since Earthquake is not that great a move this gen thanks to balloon. Also, while mence generally maxes speed to take advantage of its 100, Dragonite invests more into its offenses and possibly bulk. It is not as punished by the loss of speed thanks to extremespeed.
Shush I don't pay attention to minor details <_< >_>
Wishpass Mence is kind of joke to me. The only mence set that is still effective is Mixmence which is my set of choice every time and day i know mence. And because many idiots are using Dragon Claw Mence. Not that its worse every way but Dragon Claw wont even OHKO some of big threats that mence need to beat ASAP.
You must be kidding, WishMence makes a great check to all the fighting-types out there, and physical attackers in general thanks to Intimidate.
DD / Draco Meteor / Outrage / Fire Blast. Heatran is less common, which allows DM a slot to pound physical walls that would otherwise cause issues.
Agreed. But you must know your opponent's team, because using DM on a steel physical wall means you will have to switch out and take another round of pointed stones in the ass (unless that wall is named Ferro/Forry, but you got it).
I believe that Earthquake is still the better choice in this case. Consider that to be fully effective, DDMence must run maximum speed, which means it only has 256 EVs to spare, and no boosting nature. A large investment in Attack is absolutely necessary to allow Mence to retain that power with one DD, which leaves very few EVs left to invest in Special Attack, and an uninvested Draco Meteor is actually very noticeably weaker than Outrage against the physically bulky pokemon that one might want to use it against, such as Hippowdon.
Also, if Mence is up against something like TTar, it will have to utilize its sole physical attack, Outrage, due to TTar's ability to take both Fire Blast and Draco Meteor (as can almost all specially bulky pokemon). Outrage locks Salamence in, and although it's a great attack, it's best to use it as little as possible to its locking side-effect and the confusion after use. Earthquake's extra coverage just allows Salamence to sweep more effectively, while Draco Meteor simply falls flat.
Maybe it should run Dragon Dance/Outrage/Brick Break/Draco Meteor (or Fire Blast) should probably be the new set. Brick Break seems better overall considering the number of steels that are neutral/immune to Earthquake and Balloon Users can get past Earthquake and force an unwanted Outrage, trapping Salamence in. However Brick Break will hit everything you want Earthquake for and actually more hitting those Balloon Doryuzu, Heatran, etc. Brick Break also hits Nattorei supereffective for a 2 hit ko (maybe even a one with Adamant+1 with slight damages) and could break Screens and provide a more accurate move against it than Fire Blast.
Too many steels have really high defense though....thats why I encourage the use of a fire attack with Mence.
The idea with this Salamence is that it can weaken its own checks before going for a sweep with DD. Running a spread of 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, for example, Max/Min Tyranitar is still devastated by +1 LO Outrage, and with the popularity of Balloon Mence will have to Outrage against certain threats regardless (Terakion, Heatran, Ninetales, etc).
That's not to say that the classic DD set isn't viable, but it is much harder to pull off and DDMixMence likes being able to attack throughout the match without having to lock itself in.
Thinking perhaps Outrage? But I'm in complete agreement - the Mix Dancer is very effective right now. Being able to hit so hard from either side is great, and with max SpA all it takes is a single prediction with Flamethrower to take out an opposing Steel-type, and then you're good to sweep. Use it with Rapid Spin support because this mence has so much more to offer its team than any other mence variant. It has the hard hitting power of MixMence (OHKOing things like Gliscor in one shot), and the potential to speed up and sweep with Dragon Dance and Outrage once you're in that checkmate position.
Is it me, or is Draco Meteor so underwhelming? I mean, sure, it packs a punch with 252 SpA EVs, but I find myself losing KOes on things like...Hippowdon and defensive Starmie. I wasn't exactly running a Salamence centric team when I was testing, so perhaps some entry hazards will do. Other than that, I find myself taking down at least one Pokemon with the MixDD set, so it's not all that bad.
Thanks for that catch, Legacy.
AG, I don't find it underwhelming at all for a set who's goal it is to weaken its own counters. Hippowdon takes a crippling amount of damage from Draco Meteor, so much so that a switch-in to spikes or a weak attack will finish it should it switch out, and a follow-up DM will finish it if it stays in. Ferrothorn is roasted by Fire blast even after the drop.
It isn't going to work to the fullest if the team isn't based around it, obviously, but I still find it quite effective. It's probably the difference in power between Naive LO DM and Timid Specs DM from Latios that makes it seem underwhelming.
AG, I don't find it underwhelming at all for a set who's goal it is to weaken its own counters. Hippowdon takes a crippling amount of damage from Draco Meteor, so much so that a switch-in to spikes or a weak attack will finish it should it switch out, and a follow-up DM will finish it if it stays in. Ferrothorn is roasted by Fire blast even after the drop.
It isn't going to work to the fullest if the team isn't based around it, obviously, but I still find it quite effective. It's probably the difference in power between Naive LO DM and Timid Specs DM from Latios that makes it seem underwhelming.
Fire Blast > EQ on the MixDancer set, IMO. There are so many more checks against Mence that hates Fire Blast much more than Earthquake. With Fire Blast, you're hitting Nattorei, Scizor, Skarmory, Bronzong, who would otherwise laugh at Earthquake, and with Earthquake, you're hitting Heatran and probably Jirachi in the rain. Considering Nattorei and Scizor are EVERYWHERE, and Heatran and Jirachi aren't causing too many problems by themselves, I do think Fire Blast is the better option.
At the same time, it's kinda pointless to run DD if it's only for one attack.
I mean sure Outrage is powerful when backed up by 1 or 2 Dragon Dances but at the same time if your gonna run it on a Salamance it should at least be packing two physical moves to benefit from it.
I agree that Fire Blast is probably the best special attack option since steels would wall poor Salamance but what other phyiscal move would you go with if you don't want to use Earthquake?
The Attack boost of DD is only for one attack, but the Speed boost isn't.
Besides, most of the time, Outrage is the only attack you need.
Because Salamence has a much better Special Attack stat that easily justfies going mixed and Fire Blast/Flamethrower aren't piss weak before a DD.
A large issue with that is that Fire Fang causes you to hit the omnipresent Ferrothron's Iron Barbs, accumulating significant recoil in a very short time. Since your Fire Fang isn't gonna be helping a sweep at +1 (Fairly sure Fire Blast would be similarly powerful), you can pack Fire Blast instead and avoid potential recoil. At least that's how I see it, the accuracy is kinda good though, as is the fact that a lot of steels tend to invest less in Def and more in SpDef.
Yes, because hitting it once and OHKOing is so much worse. Just run lefties if it's really that bad.
Realistically, the only one you miss a KO on is Skarmory, who really shouldn't be switching in out of fear of Fire Blast.
Sunny Day salamence looks appealing now actually...
And Fire Fang accomplishes what, exactly, in exchange for that?
Skarmory fears Fire Blast because Salamence frequently runs Fire Blast because Salamence needs Fire Blast in order to beat Skarmory. Key phrase: Salamence needs Fire Blast.