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Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
Palafin is on the enforced STAB list because it's slower than most Pokémon in rands (its real speed at its current level is 199 which seems high, but this gen has really high speed stats across the board). This means that it will always get Jet Punch and then Wave Crash is only a potential addition.
We could take it off the enforced STAB list, but that will lead to it getting outsped a lot, and also probably cause Scarf on Jet Punchless sets which I don't think is desirable.
the dev team is currently discussing how to fix this, and whether we want to. The simplest way to fix this would be by preventing Choice Band from having Ice Punch. The proposal to do so has significant pushback,
Edit: the majority of the team now believes that wave crashless band being 20% of palafins is desirable and optimal. It is currently not likely that your suggestion will be accepted.
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I'd love it if there were fewer chesto berries on fat mons. I just lost a game because my rest Bronzong had chesto instead of leftovers, and the thought occurred to me that Bronzong virtually never benefits from chesto since the only situations where it even needs / gets to click rest are situations where it's going to be able to stay in for two turns (generally against a fairly weak special attacker like lapras that can 4hko it). Against anything else, it either doesn't need to rest or is going to die regardless of chesto. Regirock is another example where it would be nice to get leftovers instead of chesto at least sometimes since it's in a similar position where it only really clicks rest in positions where it wouldn't benefit from chesto. Thanks!
Hi! Thank you for your suggestion. It's been brought to the development team and has so far been denied 10-1 because the lack of team preview means that you will often need to not be helpless after using Rest. I'll let you know if this changes, but until then please do not bring it up again. Thank you.
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Mods I know you're gonna flame me but............... this might actually work no cap
Zoroark Hisui can use its 100 Atk to pull of a SD set
it's moves would be...
Swords Dance: You can't have an SD sweeper without SD obviously
Poltergeist: It's arguably the strongest Ghost Physical move and the strongest STAB for H-Zoro
Body Slam: Respectable STAB and has a good para chance too
Foul Play/Knock Off/Low Kick/: coverage options that could be considered for it
Overall while this may not be seen as the best set, it would definitely make H-Zoro a much more versatile Mon... plus it's physical movepool isn't that bad somehow
EDIT: I know U-Turn is shit on an SD mon now now thanks to somebody they know who they are I'm deleting that from my proposal
TLDR: Physical H-Zoro set with SD/Poltergiest/Body Slam/FP-Knock-Low Kick- or something similar with Life Orb
Zoroark Hisui can use its 100 Atk to pull of a SD set
it's moves would be...
Swords Dance: You can't have an SD sweeper without SD obviously
Poltergeist: It's arguably the strongest Ghost Physical move and the strongest STAB for H-Zoro
Body Slam: Respectable STAB and has a good para chance too
Foul Play/Knock Off/Low Kick/: coverage options that could be considered for it
Overall while this may not be seen as the best set, it would definitely make H-Zoro a much more versatile Mon... plus it's physical movepool isn't that bad somehow
EDIT: I know U-Turn is shit on an SD mon now now thanks to somebody they know who they are I'm deleting that from my proposal
TLDR: Physical H-Zoro set with SD/Poltergiest/Body Slam/FP-Knock-Low Kick- or something similar with Life Orb
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This isn't that bad of a suggestion tbh. However, it may not work out as well as you would think. Not only is it a lot less coverage than its special attacker set, it's a lot weaker, with poltergeist being its only saving grace. Combine that with the fact that Steel and Rock are mostly physically defensive and you will realise you will have a hard time breaking through pokemon like one nasty plot can achieve. Body Slam itself is why I would personally reject the idea of this because it is not strong enough. Imagine a level 80 Zoroark using Body Slam. Not the best.
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Low kick is the only potentially viable 4th, foul play isn’t boosted by sd and knock messes up poltergeist hard
Imo, you only really need Ghost + Fighting as coverage so a mixed SD could work.
Role: Fast Attacker
Zoroark-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Ghost / Fighting (?)
- Swords Dance
- Poltergeist
- Low Kick
- Hyper Voice
Poltergeist outdamages Hyper Voice especially after a boost and can hit super effectively while revealing their item so I think it's worth considering further.
Low Kick hits darks and normals as well as the physical defensive rocks/steels. The latter usually are heavy so move power isn't much of an issue. The downside here is that you need to boost up to ensure a KO while Focus Miss is a 70/30 chance for a kill or at least debilitatingly damage.
Hyper Voice is Horoark's strongest special move and gives it a way to chunk physically defensive non-resists when boosting with SD isn't feasible or worth it.
As for why I'd like this set to exist alongside the current one. It gives it a better MU into bulky spdef mons like Florges, Ho-Oh, Alcremie, etc that'd normally trade for heavy damage and LO recoil to Horoark while hitting mons with similar defense stats harder.
+2 Lvl 80 84 Atk Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Poltergeist vs. Lvl 85 84 HP / 84 Def Florges: 312-368 (115.1 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Lvl 80 84 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Hyper Voice vs. Lvl 85 84 HP / 84 SpD Florges: 161-191 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Lvl 80 84 Atk Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Poltergeist vs. Lvl 71 84 HP / 84 Def Ho-Oh: 304-359 (113.4 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Lvl 80 84 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Hyper Voice vs. Lvl 71 84 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 192-227 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Lvl 80 84 Atk Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Poltergeist vs. Lvl 90 84 HP / 84 Def Alcremie: 274-325 (104.1 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Lvl 80 84 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Hyper Voice vs. Lvl 90 84 HP / 84 SpD Alcremie: 187-220 (71.1 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hi, after a lot of discussion, we came to a conclusion on this:
-We will not add swords dance at this time.
-However, Poltergeist does hold merit, so we will add a second Hisuian Zoroark set that is a mixed life orb attacker with Poltergeist, Hyper Voice, Focus Blast, and Will-O-Wisp.
I hope this suffices.
Scrapping the set is already a slated change for the next patch so uh, yes we can.
(I’d prefer to try LO first but people like webs)
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Would it be possible to introduce some more item variety for Dragon Dance Flygon? Given that it isn't super naturally strong, I think a Life Orb variant of its current set would add to its toolkit nicely. Sucks to constantly see +1 EQ or Outrage leave something below 5% but not dead. Also worth noting that Lum Berry isn't amazing on a mon that's naturally immune to a DDer's worst enemy (Twave) and can often escape Toxic with Tera Steel anyway.
This would either involve a hardcode or moving to Dragon Claw. Neither seem particularly worthwhile in my opinion, but I'll bring this up to the team and we'll discuss it.
We came up with an alternate solution: ALL existing Lum Berry users will as of next update have a 50% chance to get their default item (Life Orb or Leftovers) instead. This decreases the rate of Lum and allows Life Orb on a lot of Pokemon that wouldn't have it otherwise.
In other words, half of DD Flygon will be Life Orb now. And Haxorus, and Kingdra, and Regidrago, et cetera
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I don't like this change because it's kinda weird as a universal one
Haxorus, for instance, gets much more value out of Lum than a Kingdra does because Haxorus is already OHKOing/2HKOing Pokemon at +1, and status is one of the main things stopping of a +1/+1 Tera Steel Haxorus sweep.
Flygon and Kingdra make sense because they are Pokemon that are not strong enough to just pick up on KOs.
+1 Lvl 77 84 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 211-249 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 Lvl 84 84 Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 178-210 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 Lvl 84 84 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 231-273 (53.8 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 Lvl 82 84 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 175-207 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 Lvl 82 84 Atk Life Orb Flygon Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 227-269 (52.9 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as an example^
Some DD Dragons may Life Orb to effectively break, but not all of them need the extra power. I have a feeling that Haxorus winrate will decline, albeit maybe not too much (Lorb is still not a bad item for it per se, just not what it wants imo) but still.
Haxorus, for instance, gets much more value out of Lum than a Kingdra does because Haxorus is already OHKOing/2HKOing Pokemon at +1, and status is one of the main things stopping of a +1/+1 Tera Steel Haxorus sweep.
Flygon and Kingdra make sense because they are Pokemon that are not strong enough to just pick up on KOs.
+1 Lvl 77 84 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 211-249 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 Lvl 84 84 Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 178-210 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 Lvl 84 84 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 231-273 (53.8 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 Lvl 82 84 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 175-207 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 Lvl 82 84 Atk Life Orb Flygon Outrage vs. Lvl 87 84 HP / 84 Def Alomomola: 227-269 (52.9 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as an example^
Some DD Dragons may Life Orb to effectively break, but not all of them need the extra power. I have a feeling that Haxorus winrate will decline, albeit maybe not too much (Lorb is still not a bad item for it per se, just not what it wants imo) but still.
Hi, we tried removing Sucker Punch Dipplin and its winrate was not increased by the loss of the move. As such, we'd prefer if Sucker Punch stayed at this time; it will be readded next update.
I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Edit: This reversion may be vetoed by the development council if they just really don't like it.
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Is there a particular reason why Aqua Jet was removed from CB Floatzel's movepool? It's been unfortunate to see, I think it's far better as a revenge killer when it has that strong priority option for speed-boosting/naturally faster stuff. Being unable to check +1 Volcarona after some minor chip damage is downright silly.
The reason for this is that Aqua Jet and Flip Turn are incompatible (can't be generated together). This is for the benefit of Pokémon such as Samurott(-Hisui) who really want both moves as an option on a set such as AV, which means including both moves in the same role for itemgen purposes, but who also really don't want 3 Water-Type attacks at the same time as it will make them hard-walled by some opponents.
On balance, Flip Turn is a much more important move on Band Floatzel than Aqua Jet is. Band Aqua Jet is a nice niche option, for the reasons you said such as getting the jump on speed setup sweepers or scarfers. These opponents are rare, however, while Flip Turn has a major impact in almost every game. Including Aqua Jet cuts the commonality of Flip Turn massively due to their incompatibility.
The final option is to make Floatzel a fixed set with 3 Water-Type attacks (Wave Crash, Flip Turn, Aqua Jet) and one final attack. This has been done to Pokémon such as Basculin, though these are quite a bit slower than Floatzel, who is one of the fastest Pokémon in the format, which makes Aqua Jet more valuable for the Pokémon who have these fixed sets. Initial reaction to the suggestion is that Floatzel losing its coverage in favour of a niche speed control option isn't desirable. This could change upon further discussion, but it is unlikely to do so.
Context: Free for all Randoms
Not sure if this is the best place to bring this up but didnt see another thread for FFA battles. For now, I'll assume here.
Toxic Spikes are too game warping in Free for all randoms. FFA (not randoms) has already banned this move since they see its power. The meta is naturally very passive as all players want to be the player targeted the least. As such toxic spikes when set up can allow the player that set it up to gain a strong lead over the span of the game with multiple turns of protect spamming (which is meta in FFA). They can simultaneously stall the match to encourage other battlers to fight within themselves as well as stall for tspikes to rack up most damage. This can ultimately end up in seemingly unwinnable scenarios for players that face toxic spikes without being lucky enough to roll a grounded poison or hazard removal.
While players can gang up on a toxic spike setter, its very often that the players are not fast enough to prevent a single toxic spike from going up (which can be enough to warp the game in some cases) or the player using toxic spikes can play in a way that only sends out their tspike setter once they know its the fastest one on the field. Even then, multiple players in FFA all agreeing on the same thing is always uncertain. Add this on top of the fact 1 use of toxic spikes sets it for all 3 opponents, and you have a very warping hazard. Rocks/webs/spikes all proc once per switch-in as opposed to racking up over the course of time, so they are much less concerning.
In my case, when I play against a toxic spike setter and I dont have a grounded poison, I do one of 3 things:
-Attack the tspikes setter in hopes of getting a kill before the first toxic spike goes up. Usually I need to pray one of my other battlers will fear it as much as me and work with me to gang up and kill the setter. If we fail:
-Tera Poison something. Literally at this point I need to sink my tera which is usually a bad play. Tera is a really useful mechanic even in FFA but tspikes are so deadly it is in my mind 100% the play to tera poison something just to remove tspikes. Theyre that threatening. This usually still means i need to get something poisoned first so it can come in on tspikes -> proc the tera -> switch out -> switch back in removing tspikes. If I have no tera poison pokemon:
-Assume I lost and pettily target the player that got up tspikes in the 'if i cant win you cant either' mentality. In rare cases you are able to pull off a win still but really only if you play as aggressively as possible and hopefully multiple players throw. But in almost all cases it is a loss at this point.
Games do just warp as soon as a tspike setter appears. Toxic/Toxic Chain you may also consider, but I dont feel either are quite as powerful since Toxic is more manual, only affects one pokemon at a time, can be played around with switches into toxic immune, and goes away once the toxic setter is dead. Toxic Chain is also quite strong but its locked to few pokemon and most of them cannot toxic all players at once (and the one that can is much more rng based). This also goes away when the Toxic Chain Pokemon dies. Either way, I hope we consider this ban. Honestly, Last Respects/Rage Fist are much more easy to play around then this lol..
Not sure if this is the best place to bring this up but didnt see another thread for FFA battles. For now, I'll assume here.
Toxic Spikes are too game warping in Free for all randoms. FFA (not randoms) has already banned this move since they see its power. The meta is naturally very passive as all players want to be the player targeted the least. As such toxic spikes when set up can allow the player that set it up to gain a strong lead over the span of the game with multiple turns of protect spamming (which is meta in FFA). They can simultaneously stall the match to encourage other battlers to fight within themselves as well as stall for tspikes to rack up most damage. This can ultimately end up in seemingly unwinnable scenarios for players that face toxic spikes without being lucky enough to roll a grounded poison or hazard removal.
While players can gang up on a toxic spike setter, its very often that the players are not fast enough to prevent a single toxic spike from going up (which can be enough to warp the game in some cases) or the player using toxic spikes can play in a way that only sends out their tspike setter once they know its the fastest one on the field. Even then, multiple players in FFA all agreeing on the same thing is always uncertain. Add this on top of the fact 1 use of toxic spikes sets it for all 3 opponents, and you have a very warping hazard. Rocks/webs/spikes all proc once per switch-in as opposed to racking up over the course of time, so they are much less concerning.
In my case, when I play against a toxic spike setter and I dont have a grounded poison, I do one of 3 things:
-Attack the tspikes setter in hopes of getting a kill before the first toxic spike goes up. Usually I need to pray one of my other battlers will fear it as much as me and work with me to gang up and kill the setter. If we fail:
-Tera Poison something. Literally at this point I need to sink my tera which is usually a bad play. Tera is a really useful mechanic even in FFA but tspikes are so deadly it is in my mind 100% the play to tera poison something just to remove tspikes. Theyre that threatening. This usually still means i need to get something poisoned first so it can come in on tspikes -> proc the tera -> switch out -> switch back in removing tspikes. If I have no tera poison pokemon:
-Assume I lost and pettily target the player that got up tspikes in the 'if i cant win you cant either' mentality. In rare cases you are able to pull off a win still but really only if you play as aggressively as possible and hopefully multiple players throw. But in almost all cases it is a loss at this point.
Games do just warp as soon as a tspike setter appears. Toxic/Toxic Chain you may also consider, but I dont feel either are quite as powerful since Toxic is more manual, only affects one pokemon at a time, can be played around with switches into toxic immune, and goes away once the toxic setter is dead. Toxic Chain is also quite strong but its locked to few pokemon and most of them cannot toxic all players at once (and the one that can is much more rng based). This also goes away when the Toxic Chain Pokemon dies. Either way, I hope we consider this ban. Honestly, Last Respects/Rage Fist are much more easy to play around then this lol..
Hi! Free for all currently doesn't have its own sets, it just uses the sets from Random Doubles. The random battles council will take this into consideration when we do give Free For All its own sets, which has (slowly) been in progress for a while. Sets will not be changed for free for all until this is done.
Ok! Would you be interested in help constructing some sets for FFA Randoms? I'm not on the council at all lol but I also assume this isnt on the top of your priority list, and I play the tier a good amount at least. Definitely understand if its a no cuz im just some rando lol, but also if you want the help I would be very interested in helping.
if youre interested in helping out, you should definitely apply for setdev. help is always appreciated
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-development-team-fill-out-this-form.3735188/
