you arent in the right place, so heres a link to the metronome thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metronome-battle.3632075/
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Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
you arent in the right place, so heres a link to the metronome thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metronome-battle.3632075/
Thanks!
Hello,
My name is berendjan010 and I am a random battle enthousiast with lots of battles played (frequently active since gen7).
It has come to my attention that our thicc gator has gotten a new move in its arsenal; traillblaze.
I, a player with an ELO of 2000, think feraligatr should not own this move in its random battle set and should be changed back to earthquake. Now I am aware that one single person should not decide every single rule / set, following the steps of dictatorship. However, this is happening now as we speak. Our dear friend 'Cake' has made this conclusion without any consult of fellow players. At last, disregarding 'Jabba' completely without thinking his points trough.
Now my proposition would be to take this matter to the official court, where this situation would get propper judgement and honest voting by the official legal council of random battles. I will be active in this forum to seek true justice as I am certain we can overtrow choices made by an single individual. Let this be the next step to a world of pokemon democracy!
Make feraligatr great again!
It wasn’t a decision made just by Cake, a whole team of us work on the sets together (not just staff but also our setdev consultants who get on the team by basically passing an exam for rands knowledge). Maybe it’ll get put to a council vote just to appease you but I can already tell you all the members of the council will vote to keep Trailblaze on Feraligatr. This is because it’s a better attack for Feraligatr than Earthquake, because it hits one of Feraligatr’s STAB resists harder than EQ which doesn’t hit any of its resists, and because all council members are part of the team that works on setdev together.
Welcome to Smogon!
EDIT: BTW I took a look at your text attachment once I got back to PC. Pokémon in Random Battle have flat EVs of 85 in all stats and a neutral nature, with rare exceptions (0 attack IVs if mon doesn't have a physical attack, and 0 speed IVs if it runs Trick Room, for example). So that set would definitely be impossible!
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in a gen 6 game i rolled a team with 3 aromatherapy users and a heal bell user. i dont know exactly how the set generation works but i feel like this should be capped to 2 mons per team max. im also not sure if this is only a problem in certain gens or not but i figured i should share it here.
Thanks for your suggestion. After some discussion we have implemented a limit of 1 heal bell/aromatherapy user per team in all generations. Since some cleric sets are fixed or near-fixed sets, you may rarely get two clerics on a team, but get any more is astronomically unlikely.
For future reference, suggestions for past generations should be posted here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-random-battle-sets.3674281/
Hi, I put together a project I thought I'd share (click here to view the spreadsheet). The idea is to find the "true" base stats for every Pokemon in Gen 9 Random Battles, accounting for the ways in which level balancing makes some Pokemon much stronger or weaker than what they would look like on paper. Specifically, I first found the average level of every legal form (about 83), then solved the problem "what base stats would this Pokemon have to have at level 83 in order to play identically to the way it does now?" This goal is to create identical HP, Defense, Special Defense, and Speed stats (within rounding error) and identical damage output with both Physical and Special moves. (Offensive stats will not be identical due to the explicit level-dependence in the damage formula, but actual power will remain the same.)
As examples, consider Glaceon and Maushold. Glaceon is boosted up to level 94, making its stats much higher than one might expect. Its level-adjusted Special Attack power is equivalent to an average-level Pokemon with base 173 Special Attack, the second-highest adjusted offensive stat in the game behind Rampardos. Adding up all six of Glaceon's effective base stats gives around 655, the game's third-highest effective base stat total behind Regigigas and Slaking. On the other hand, Maushold's access to moves like Population Bomb causes its level to be decreased down to 76. Its stats become even lower than they usually appear, with an effective base Attack of just 59. Overall, its effective base stat total is just 397, fourth-lowest ahead of Ditto, Smeargle, and Palafin-Zero.
I hope this can be a new way to visualize the effect of level balancing in a way that people might be familiar with. One other nice result is that sorting by effective BST, we get a clear spectrum between strong-stats-but-lackluster-moveset Pokemon (like Glaceon) to low-stats-but-effective-moveset Pokemon (like Maushold). It's kinda fun to look at, and I hope it makes sense.
As examples, consider Glaceon and Maushold. Glaceon is boosted up to level 94, making its stats much higher than one might expect. Its level-adjusted Special Attack power is equivalent to an average-level Pokemon with base 173 Special Attack, the second-highest adjusted offensive stat in the game behind Rampardos. Adding up all six of Glaceon's effective base stats gives around 655, the game's third-highest effective base stat total behind Regigigas and Slaking. On the other hand, Maushold's access to moves like Population Bomb causes its level to be decreased down to 76. Its stats become even lower than they usually appear, with an effective base Attack of just 59. Overall, its effective base stat total is just 397, fourth-lowest ahead of Ditto, Smeargle, and Palafin-Zero.
I hope this can be a new way to visualize the effect of level balancing in a way that people might be familiar with. One other nice result is that sorting by effective BST, we get a clear spectrum between strong-stats-but-lackluster-moveset Pokemon (like Glaceon) to low-stats-but-effective-moveset Pokemon (like Maushold). It's kinda fun to look at, and I hope it makes sense.
This is really great, would you also be willing to put a filter per stat so that we could filter for specific stats orders?
I think it should already be possible to sort them (though maybe not on a phone), but just in case, here are the individual stats: HP | Attack | Defense | Special Attack | Special Defense | Speed
Not sure if this is the correct place for this, but some thoughts:
I've played competitive Pokémon for over 20 years and have experienced events so incredibly unlucky that even the most seasoned on here would be skeptical. Missing a game winning, last turn Explosion (1/256 chance) in the finals of a massive RBY tournament, hit 0/6 Thunders in a GSC game, and tons of other random shit like getting crit 3 out of 6 turns from a Medicham's HJK in ADV. As someone who plays a lot of Randoms Blitz, you eventually get numb to bullshit happening in a blink of an eye, and if any of you are like me, almost "expect" crucial moves to miss at inopportune times, get a bad matchup, etc., but that's just part of the game. And truth be told, the variability makes it exciting, unique, and I sincerely thank all of those involved keeping the meta fresh.
All that to say that despite my enjoyment, there is oneeeee thing that to this day, despite my soliloquy above and finally achieving inner peace when luck screws me, that I absolutely cannot stand. It bothers me so much that I'm dedicating my yearly post to it.
We have to do something about Thunder Wave. Not because of it's powerful speed dropping utility, but you and your opponent quite literally having to spend the majority of some games wondering if your 'mon will fully para that turn. It's severely punishing to the point where becoming fully para'd or not is the theme of the battle.
This isn't missing a couple Hydro Pumps one battle with Inteleon, or your opponent using every hazard against you without ability to spin/defog one game, t-wave fully para is a consistent dice roll that quite often decides games. It turns into an every turn "all or nothing" situation for making a crucial play that can decide a game.
I'm not saying we need to remove para moves. It has been a staple of Pokemon since it's inception.
I just don't think it needs to be as common as it is. Can we test removing it (or making it far less common) for some Prankster mons, the Wigglytuff/Scream Tail/Clefables of the world and some of the electrics as a start?
I've played competitive Pokémon for over 20 years and have experienced events so incredibly unlucky that even the most seasoned on here would be skeptical. Missing a game winning, last turn Explosion (1/256 chance) in the finals of a massive RBY tournament, hit 0/6 Thunders in a GSC game, and tons of other random shit like getting crit 3 out of 6 turns from a Medicham's HJK in ADV. As someone who plays a lot of Randoms Blitz, you eventually get numb to bullshit happening in a blink of an eye, and if any of you are like me, almost "expect" crucial moves to miss at inopportune times, get a bad matchup, etc., but that's just part of the game. And truth be told, the variability makes it exciting, unique, and I sincerely thank all of those involved keeping the meta fresh.
All that to say that despite my enjoyment, there is oneeeee thing that to this day, despite my soliloquy above and finally achieving inner peace when luck screws me, that I absolutely cannot stand. It bothers me so much that I'm dedicating my yearly post to it.
We have to do something about Thunder Wave. Not because of it's powerful speed dropping utility, but you and your opponent quite literally having to spend the majority of some games wondering if your 'mon will fully para that turn. It's severely punishing to the point where becoming fully para'd or not is the theme of the battle.
This isn't missing a couple Hydro Pumps one battle with Inteleon, or your opponent using every hazard against you without ability to spin/defog one game, t-wave fully para is a consistent dice roll that quite often decides games. It turns into an every turn "all or nothing" situation for making a crucial play that can decide a game.
I'm not saying we need to remove para moves. It has been a staple of Pokemon since it's inception.
I just don't think it needs to be as common as it is. Can we test removing it (or making it far less common) for some Prankster mons, the Wigglytuff/Scream Tail/Clefables of the world and some of the electrics as a start?
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Unless the decision gets made to ban twave/the paralysis status this most definitely won't happen.
We don't not deliberately nerf mons if avoidable (see last respects ban for example).
But if you have a suggestion for a mon that doesn't need it to function at the same level and what to replace it with please let us known.
Random Battles' philosophy is to optimise the sets that Pokémon have. This means that changes are tested by winrate change, and if a change results in a negative winrate change then it will be reverted. This further means that something being banned for being "too good" is something that can't be done through usual practice (since it will just be reverted later) -- the only way for paralysis to be made more uncommon would be if the council voted that it was truly uncompetitive and it were banned, which would mean that it would have to be removed from everything. That vote wouldn't pass, nor receive two proposers on the council for it to be voted on in the first place, I can tell you that much now.
I do hear you that paralysis is annoying, but Gen 9 is the least annoying it's been. The fully para chance is the lowest it's ever been across Pokémon's history. It's arguably broken in doubles just because it's permanent speed control, so there'd be more chance of some movement happening on it there, but it's still one of the main contributions a lot of Pokémon can provide to the more complex nature of randdubs, so it'd be a widesweeping nerf and that's undesirable.
If you can come up with a list of Pokémon who you think "actually Thunder Wave is just being annoying here, it doesn't make the Pokémon better, and therefore may result in a winrate increase if it were removed" we'd certainly discuss those cases and maybe test them. I agree that it would be good if it were less common, while still not harming the individual viability of a given Pokémon. Currently it's on:
Clefable, Wigglytuff, Slowbro, Slowbro-Galar, Hypno, Electrode, Electrode-Hisui, Lanturn, Slowking, Slowking-Galar, Granbull, Qwilfish, Porygon2, Chansey, Blissey, Tyranitar, Sableye, Volbeat, Illumise, Banette, Chimecho, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Groudon, Honchkrow, Probopass, Uxie, Mesprit, Dialga, Dialga-Origin, Palkia, Palkia-Origin, Cobalion, Thundurus, Meowstic, Klefki, Magearna, Grimmsnarl, Duraludon, Wyrdeer, Kilowattrel, Tinkaton, Sandy Shocks, Scream Tail, Gholdengo, Archaludon
If I were to categorise these, it'd be roughly:
Pretty much the best utility the mon has to offer to its team in this set thanks to speed reduction:
It's important to have a variety of movesets in the game. Every Pokémon shouldn't just be an attacker, especially in Gen 9 which is a very offensive random battles generation to start with. Even though some of these Pokémon have second sets that are attacking / wincon sets, the possibility of acting as a support for a partner's wincon set is essential and needs to remain in the format.
Clefable, Slowbro, Slowbro-Galar, Electrode, Electrode-Hisui, Lanturn, Granbull, Qwilfish (TWave punishes offensive threats trying to stop it setting up hazards), Porygon2, Chansey, Blissey, Sableye, Volbeat, Illumise, Chimecho, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Probopass, Uxie, Cobalion, Thundurus, Meowstic, Klefki, Grimmsnarl, Wyrdeer, Kilowattrel, Tinkaton, Sandy Shocks, Scream Tail, Gholdengo, Archaludon
Actually makes use of the speed reduction itself to help it in its own role:
Halving the opponent's speed has been proven by winrates to be a useful tool on a lot of mid-range speed Pokémon. This doens't include Pokémon like Slowbro/king(-G) because they're outsped by a lot of the format while paralysed, but does to the Pokémon below:
Hypno (clicks TWave to check if it's a safe Encore as it then outspeeds), Tyranitar, Banette, Groudon, Honchkrow, Mesprit, Dialga, Dialga-Origin, Palkia, Palkia-Origin, Dualudon, Gholdengo, Archaludon
This leaves us with:
Wigglytuff -- Wigglytuff is good at using Thunder Wave, but in my view it's better at being a Wish Passer. Often what I expect to happen to Wigglytuff's winrates doesn't work out in practice, and this Pokémon is already level 96 (it's bad). I wouldn't be opposed to testing it, because I think a lot of its other sets are better, but I think it would probably end up being negative because it's a challenging Pokémon for the average ladderer to use well, and Thunder Wave is free and easy utility. Don't even think Thunder Wave is the best move to cut to make WishPass more common -- TWave is better than Knock and Stealth Rock on this mon -- but given the discussion matter I'll field it.
Slowking & Slowking-Galar -- Similarly, Chilly Reception is just the best move these Pokémon have. Making it more common by deleting Thunder Wave (which happens to only exist on Chilly Reception sets) seems viable. Also have better damage output than Wiggly, so getting more coverage moves on these mons more often is usually beneficial. A lot of targets of TWave still outspeed these mons after TWave. Would probably more actively support testing this, I think it could be beneficial to their winrates.
Magearna -- A more extreme version of Slowking & Slowking-Galar. It can be in the "actually makes use of the speed reduction itself" tier, but it's also a strong attacker and the set that TWave is on has great other utility like Volt Switch, Spikes, and some form of recovery in Pain Split. Thunder Wave seems more like an odd one out here than its other moves. Would support testing removing TWave from the Magearna set.
This isn't a long list of reductions, but they're things I can propose in staffcord. It may be shot down immediately (I think it's quite plausible it will be). Let me know if you disagree with my categorisation of any others, if you think that deleting TWave will actually increase their winrates.
Thanks for the response. You make some great points, especially in regards to leveraging it as a way to nerf heavy offense - especially from a speed control standpoint, among other things.
To be clear, I'm not saying to ban it altogether, nor do I think "it's too good" or "imbalanced". Again, not the "damn this is a bad matchup," "wow, Volcarona was 6-0ing me from the start what a waste of time," or missing <100% accuracy moves far more than you should levels of annoyance.
It's every turn that paralyzed pokemon attempts to use a move. EVERY single turn, regardless if you click Focus Blast or Aerial Ace. It is simply not fun to have to deal with that fact to the extent we do now.
It doesn't have to be a fundamental, revolutionary change that tips that scales or upsets precedent that it sounds like you and others have spent a lot of time ironing out. I really just want to see less of it LMAO
To be clear, I'm not saying to ban it altogether, nor do I think "it's too good" or "imbalanced". Again, not the "damn this is a bad matchup," "wow, Volcarona was 6-0ing me from the start what a waste of time," or missing <100% accuracy moves far more than you should levels of annoyance.
It's every turn that paralyzed pokemon attempts to use a move. EVERY single turn, regardless if you click Focus Blast or Aerial Ace. It is simply not fun to have to deal with that fact to the extent we do now.
It doesn't have to be a fundamental, revolutionary change that tips that scales or upsets precedent that it sounds like you and others have spent a lot of time ironing out. I really just want to see less of it LMAO
Suggestion to add a full support screens Klefki set:
Role: Bulky Support
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Water
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
Klefki's winrate isn't bad but I feel like 7 turn screens would be pretty good
Role: Bulky Support
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Water
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
Klefki's winrate isn't bad but I feel like 7 turn screens would be pretty good
Hi, we don't have a Screens Klefki set because of the way screens works; if this Klefki set were generated after an Aurora Veil user or another screens user, you'd have a team with two screens setters, and one of them wouldn't have any attacks. That's not desirable, and there's not another way around it right now code-wise, so we accept not having screens Klefki.
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Its winrate increased when it was changed to Waterfall, so it is outright better on it than Liquidation. I didn’t think it would be beneficial when we tested it either, but the maths do be mathing.
Interesting, would you know to say by how much? Could be related to other changes happening in the same time favoring Barraskewda, especially if it happened during one of the dlc additions. Just a bit strange as I don't see how the change would affect so many games that it will show up in the win rates, in how many games does it need to go for a flinch and for it to change the result of the game? Not super crucial just odd
+0.65% in a quarter-month period, in june 2023, pre-dlc1, and it stayed that high. Very statistically significant. Waterfall's better. Hope that helps!
Hey, I wanted to ask, is there a big difference in number of winrates when Espeon has Psyshock to when it has Psychic? I always feel like Psyshock Espeon always feels more overwhelming since with magic bounce and a great speed stat, you need a good way to counter it physically as it always wins any special calm mind war. While were at it, is there any specific reason for Ting-Lu to never having Payback and always Throat Chop? In a way it's nice to win vs Alluring Voice fairies thanks to it, although those cases are really specific, and hitting a mon switching in with Payback isn't as great as Throat Chop, since it deals less damage, but take AV for example. Normally you'd be clicking Ruination into a switch in, and you have Heavy Slam for fairies, why wouldn't Payback be a better option on this case?
Adding Psyshock to Espeon did not increase or decrease its winrate significantly, so having both moves is still preferable at this time; the raw power of Psychic is still useful.
We'll try running Payback over Throat Chop on the Bulky Attacker set (the one with Heavy Slam on it). We'll see how that goes, thank you.
An idea for a Zoroark-H set in the style of a similar Porygon-Z set:
Zoroark-H @ Life Orb / Heavy Duty Boots
Tera Type: Fighting
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower / Grass Knot
Zoroark-H @ Life Orb / Heavy Duty Boots
Tera Type: Fighting
- Nasty Plot
- Tera Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower / Grass Knot
thanks for the suggestion, but zoro-h already hits all of these coverage profiles with its current set. hyper voice and focus blast hit harder than tera blast would