Please expect a response to this in three days' time. It needs to be discussed with the dev team.
Please do not purposefully express intent to wait out the timer in battle for the express purpose of angering your opponent.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
The moderators of this forum are A Cake Wearing A Hat, Irpachuza, sharpclaw, Amaranth, and Dark Pulse.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
Please do not purposefully express intent to wait out the timer in battle for the express purpose of angering your opponent.
I have to disagree that that replay demonstrates a lack of available counterplay. Instead of going for the Tera Dark Poison Touch Knock Off, you opted to lock yourself into Gunk Shot which not only does less damage but also has lower accuracy and thus a lower chance to poison, to say nothing of the fact that Cosmic Power Deoxys-Defense is always Tera Steel. You also wasted Orthworm’s HP when Muk didn’t need to be pivoted in. Deoxys wasn’t going to use Stored Power after one Cosmic Power against a Glastrier, and even if it had, Muk’s natural special bulk means it would have been barely stronger than Night Shade at that point. Also, passing Muk a sub gave Deoxys every reason to just use Night Shade without worrying about Muk Terastallizing. I think with better plays you could have beat the Deoxys and only had to sacrifice Mienshao.
The dev council has voted not to ban Cosmic Power (7 no ban-1 ban, one abstain). I'll do what I can to make sure that we at least don't increase the rate at which cosmic appears on deo-d and chimecho, but no promises for my cohorts. I apologize if this result is disappointing to anyone.
Edit: we will be removing calm mind deo-d
Edit: we will be removing calm mind deo-d
Last edited:
Quaquaval, with Fast Support role, can end up with Life Orb Aqua CC Knock Roost. This is an awful set. There's a reason that the other Quaq set (always Lorb) is guaranteed SD. And you don't even have rapid spin. Thankfully right now it's a quite rare outcome, but if at all possible this shouldn't be able to happen.
Unfortunately forgot to save the replay.
Unfortunately forgot to save the replay.
We'll probably add Encore to the swords dance set bc of this suggestion, hope that helps even though i know it absolutely doesn't (sorry the team likes roost 3a)
Last edited:
Fair request, I'll be a better sport in the future.
My goal with Muk was trying to poison it with Gunk Shot, however it also ended up serving as bait for the Tera Steel, which opened the door so I could start wailing on it with all of the Fighting type moves I had and pray for a Close Combat crit. Even if I had done the Tera Dark Knock Off play turn two, it's at two stacks of Cosmic Power, it's not going to make a big enough dent and then Deoxys just starts recovering and continues stacking. If anything, I got lucky my opponent took the bait and Tera Steeled the second Gunk Shot. I think going for the Close Combat crit is the only way I had a real shot at doing anything with that team.
As far as Mienshao, I don't see any plays where I was able to get the Deoxys to Tera Steel while keeping it under 4 Cosmic Power stacks to either get it low enough to sac something else to have Mienshao come in for the kill, or I can Shed Tail into Mienshao to sac it and then have Staraptor come in for the kill.
Obviously we could sit here and conjecture all day about possibilities, but my larger point is that these Cosmic Power sets depend on very specific counter plays and then otherwise you're walking a very tight rope, praying for luck or for your opponent to make a mistake, and that doesn't make for fun gameplay in my experience.
I figured it was a long shot anyways. I hope this conversation has encouraged y'all to consider more thoroughly if a certain set just feels bad/annoying to play against though. I believe there are similar reasons for why evasion boosting moves aren't seen in the format? But at the end of the day it's Random Battles. Given how RNG is so core to the design of the format anyways, you're bound to get bad luck that costs you matches, and bad luck almost always feels bad; theres not a ton to be done about that. It's definitely an interesting game design challenge. Regardless, I appreciate the time and effort you devs put into the format.
What were the thoughts behind removing Calm Mind Deoxys-D, and more importantly, does that mean we'll see more Cosmic Power Deoxys-D...?
You've nailed the reasoning on the head; they think it's just worse Cosmic. Best compromise i could make with the team to keep Calm Mind Chimecho and the support sets for each alive.
"Please discuss the Deoxys-D Cosmic Power set"
....the monkey paw curls :')
Gouging Fire has Heat Crash as its only fire STAB, which usually struggle against something heavy. Considering the side effect and tera fairy/steel all around, Outrage is usually not the ideal attack to go. So maybe Flare Blitz should also be an option of the Morning Sun set.
Calyrex-Ice is the case I ran into, the list should also include:
Groudon (Blitz can take advantage of Sun)
Mudsdale, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk (fat, can be tera steel)
Glastrier, Zamazenta-Crowned, Cetitan, Copperajah, Metagross, Avalugg, Necrozma-DM, Orthworm, Beartic, Glalie, Cobalion, Iron Treads, Registeel (otherwise weak to fire)
Calyrex-Ice is the case I ran into, the list should also include:
Groudon (Blitz can take advantage of Sun)
Mudsdale, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk (fat, can be tera steel)
Glastrier, Zamazenta-Crowned, Cetitan, Copperajah, Metagross, Avalugg, Necrozma-DM, Orthworm, Beartic, Glalie, Cobalion, Iron Treads, Registeel (otherwise weak to fire)
Last edited:
hear me out-- life orb exeggutor trust me on this we want to be able to switch from giga drain to draco meteor and also want the opponent to have to guess which one they're up against
There's already a couple Harvest Sitrus sets. Do you want Specs to be replaced with Life Orb Frisk (which reveals itself on switch-in, still), or do you just want Specs to go away? I'm not sure what your desired outcome is, here
You're so right about frisk revealing on switch-in, I did not even think of that. So, I think we should keep specs and add a life orb set: draco meteor, giga drain, flamethrower, and maybe leaf storm/dragon tail for the last slot? So the movepool isn't exactly the same as specs? Tera steel should be good too.
This is for alolan exeggutor by the way to be clear.
This is for alolan exeggutor by the way to be clear.
Last edited:
Sounds to me like the Fast Attacker set that currently exists, but with life orb over Sitrus. I think harvest Sitrus is probably better than life orb, personally. Plus, we're limited on how many roles we can add onto a pokemon at once, so if we were to add life orb it would be replacing something else. Good cooking, though!
Okay so here goes. I humbly submit that lead ditto is too often terrible and should be removed from the pool of lead Pokemon for a number of reasons. Ditto itself is good in randbats but lead ditto is not. It's too punishing and often loses you games on the spot if you get sent out against any kind of setup mon especially one that can't hit itself super effectively. this is compounded by the fact that the opponent now knows exactly what your ditto's moves are and how to punish it or what not to respect when set variance is so important for countering this problem on other mons. You also lose the possibility of using your ditto as a surprise weapon later in the game. ditto is designed to counter setup but they can't be setup turn 1 anyway. Even the high roll upside for the lead isn't very good because again they know exactly what set you have and it's early match so they probably have a switch in for it. The best case scenario is not common or even that good. What lead mons are we really matching against that ditto is good against? Any other choice item mon is probably neutral to bad for us.
For example I just had ditto turn 1 against ursaluna so obviously they trailblaze turn 1 get their guts boost and im stuck uselessly choice scarfed and that isn't even the worst turn 1 ditto outcome that can happen. It's not very good against hazard stackers or other utility mons especially ones who have rapid spin anyway. Anything with substitute cooks you. Anything with an interactive ability like poison heal cooks you. Anything that requires it's item essentially. Any bulky mon with recovery cooks you. Anything with Twave that can't OHKO itself cooks you. Pls no more.
For example I just had ditto turn 1 against ursaluna so obviously they trailblaze turn 1 get their guts boost and im stuck uselessly choice scarfed and that isn't even the worst turn 1 ditto outcome that can happen. It's not very good against hazard stackers or other utility mons especially ones who have rapid spin anyway. Anything with substitute cooks you. Anything with an interactive ability like poison heal cooks you. Anything that requires it's item essentially. Any bulky mon with recovery cooks you. Anything with Twave that can't OHKO itself cooks you. Pls no more.
Last edited:
I totally agree with you, but unfortunately this was voted on by council while I was still on it and was determined that it should remain able to lead. That means this is unlikely to happen, since the change would have to go through extra bureaucratic steps before going to a vote, and would still have to pass the vote. Here are the minutes where this happened: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rmation-council-minutes.3718103/#post-9574832
oh man :( I actually thought I could make a difference.
That doesn't even really make sense yes it gains you information but that plus side can't possibly be worth all the other downsides especially since you don't even choose which mon you get the info on. What if the mon you need info on isn't in the lead? Even when you get that info you have to spend a turn switching to the counter when you could have just sent in a good mon in the first place. Also they said it makes up for not being able to copy their sweeper with the mindgame of them being too afraid to set up but copying their set up is way better than them not going for setup.
I feel so disillusioned...
I rather disagree with these statements
1) Even if not every mon is that worthwhile to know the set of, I would estimate that at least 8/10 mons is good for you. Even the examples you gave of ursaluna and gliscor, are both mons with quite a bit of set variety and have value knowing the exact moves each has. Like knowing if gliscor is subtox or uturn can tell you if you should go to your specs oranguru with hyper voice, or switch into something that can take a uturn. Or with ursaluna, its the difference between going to your quaquaval with roost that will get outsped and koed after a trailblaze, or your frailer floatzel that will actually be a threat. And the arguement of "well you could have just had a good mon as the lead instead of ditto" means nothing. What if instead of ditto as the lead it was non tera blast regieleki? There are always going to be bad leads, at least ditto gives you the consolation prize of information that can be used later.
2) Having a way to disincentivize setup in ditto often feels just as, if not more, useful as copying buffs in the average game. It makes it so you can switch to counters without having to make predicts on staying in so they dont sweep your team, since they never will setup unless they have a counter in the back (and even then you made them reveal a mon and take some chip.) Even though the 5-0 reverse sweep always feels good, realistically it's not going to happen often unless you are already in an endgame. Most of the time a suprise ditto in the early to mid game just leads to you getting countered by a resistance to the move you locked in to, or at best forcing a tera. Overall I really don't think a known ditto is not any worse than an unknown one, they just make you play differently which definitely is not a bad thing.
Hello-
So firstly the entire meat of my argument was that it's a numbers game. All leads have some good matchups and some bad matchups. The problem with ditto is there are significantly more bad matchups than good, and probably more terrible matchups than any other lead pokemon. There's a famous economics essay called "that which is seen and that which is not seen" that I feel is relavent here. Yes gaining info on sets is (almost) always better than not gaining the info at all, so it isn't a net value of +0. But what is not seen is the value you would have had by actually putting in a mon that has a far higher likelihood of not only being able to go toe to toe with their lead or get value from hazards but possibly even give THEM the bad matchup and force them to switch. The only truly bad matchups against lead ditto are like a lead that can ohko itself like a strong dragon or something and those are so limited, and then because you will be choice locked you just switch in a resist anyway and it's not that bad. No one is ever losing the game against a lead ditto but you can lose it against so many other mons so the Expected Value equation of all other lead mons is higher as a result and so much lower from ditto which can never win the game but often lose the game. So yes I may now know whether I need to switch in a floatzel or quaquaval, but either way I'm in a worse spot than I would have been with the vast majority of other leads. The ursaluna player now has chip damage on either switch in and their guts boost activated and ready to go for later, plus they can tera normal if they want and go for game.
As for your second point it may be more nuanced than I initially presented it but once again you are missing that which is not seen. If I had ditto in the back I could choose to reveal it at any time, therefore applying the psychological pressure you mentioned, OR I can save it as a counter sweeper. By not leading it I have the best of both worlds but by leading it I only have one. You like the safety of not having to make the predicts you feel comes with a revealed ditto? Then send ditto in to revenge KO something early game and you get your wish.
-----EDIT------
Oh one more thing even in situations where set info is valuable is it worth instantly conceding switch initiative and tempo? Often times not. I like when their leads have to switch not mine.
Last edited:
I'll say first that I dont completely disagree with your arguments, like saying that having ditto in the back lets people either reveal it as a threat, or keep it hidden as a countersweeper (although we will have to agree to disagree about you thinking that ditto has a large amount of terrible matchups.) My biggest disagreement is thinking that these problems of ditto are big enough to make it not a lead. If we look at current and past mons designated as not being leads you'll see that either they have a one-time move/ability that activates on switchin (zacian, zamazenta, iron boulder when its only item was booster energy etc.) and the last respecters (since your opponent will know to keep a normal or dark type/tera type healthy, making the last respecter pretty much deadweight. Obviously ditto isn't part of group one, and I think saying it is part of group two is rather disingenuous given that it still disincentivizes setup, and you are still able to copy a mon just to have a fast attacker (and theres a chance your opponent will set up and get copied even with ditto revealed.) And if you start going down the path that ditto should be in its own group because of its supposedly multiple terrible matchups, then I think that just opens up a can of worms of what counts as too many bad matchups (like should aforementioned regieleki be banned from leading? or resttalk curse snorlax since it has to switch vs every ghost type? etc.)
Tldr, I think your points are mostly accurate, just not strong reasoning for ditto stopping being lead.
I want to suggest a new set for eiscue, the classic belly drum user.
Eiscue doesn't have many coverages, and struggles a lot with water types overall, only having zen headbutt to manage them (ignoring the tera blast sets, which i think they are fine). However, i dont think zen headbutt is a good option, as most of the times you are using ice spinner, and when you want to use coverage liquidation is a better option, being zen headbutt really situational.
For this reason i think that a reversal set would be greater. ice fighting is a great coverage, since it hits super effective against half of the types, and not being a single type that resists both. I think this set would suit perfectly with the sub salac berry, so with the hp lost by belly drum and sub, reversal's power would increase. This set would let eiscue have a better coverage for the times it needs them, while also removing zen headbutt, which is a poor attempt to give eiscue a coverage.
Eiscue doesn't have many coverages, and struggles a lot with water types overall, only having zen headbutt to manage them (ignoring the tera blast sets, which i think they are fine). However, i dont think zen headbutt is a good option, as most of the times you are using ice spinner, and when you want to use coverage liquidation is a better option, being zen headbutt really situational.
For this reason i think that a reversal set would be greater. ice fighting is a great coverage, since it hits super effective against half of the types, and not being a single type that resists both. I think this set would suit perfectly with the sub salac berry, so with the hp lost by belly drum and sub, reversal's power would increase. This set would let eiscue have a better coverage for the times it needs them, while also removing zen headbutt, which is a poor attempt to give eiscue a coverage.
No.
Few things:
-Reversal is not a replacement to zen headbutt; the proposals to add reversal and remove zen headbutt would be completely independent from each other.
-We have tried to remove zen headbutt before and it's winrate dropped as a result. We will not be planning on doing so again.
-Adding reversal would mean making a third set for Eiscue that is solely reversal, for technical reasons. This means the rate of Tera Blast would decrease from 1/2 to 1/3. The team views this as undesirable and that's one of the reasons this has been denied.
-Reversal would be 80 BP. There would be no reliable way to get Eiscue to 1 HP to maximize Reversal power. 80 BP is entirely fine, on paper. Of course, this wouldn't stop a lot of the ladders in rands from complaining that Eiscue cannot maximize Reversal's power, or even worse, it wouldn't stop ladders from trying to sub twice before then trying and failing to belly drum on the assumption that reversal would work. This is the other reason we unfortunately don't want this to happen.
On paper, it's good, but there's a number of circumstances that make it not reasonable to go forward with it.
the subh salac berry set would leave eiscue at 25% hp which is 80 bp, as i just explained you cannot sub twice and then drum.
I think close combat breloom could be cool. A couple of times, it's a little annoying that it doesn't have a stronger fighting move to click other than mach punch. Also, maybe a PHeal set could be cool. I think Technician is the better ability to set up with more of the time, as the stronger mach punches matter, but I could see a set like Substitute/Spore/Leech Seed/(Focus Punch, Close Combat) being effective, but I'm not so sure on this one as it can be kinda bad into some matchups.
We tried close combat Breloom for a while but we removed it because we don't want it to have Choice Band and like it having Rock Tomb, Swords Dance, and Spore more often.