Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets

[Sans_Undertale]

I would like for the Gogoat set to be altered.
The things I like about it are its Tera Type and Ability.
It currently uses Earthquake, Horn Leech, Bulk Up, and Milk Drink.

However, this not only fails to effectively damage types such as Bug, and Flying; two of its weaknesses, but also its own type of Grass.
Gogoat isn't exactly known for having good natural bulk.
But by using a set consisting of moves like Leech Seed, Substitute, a coverage move like Aerial Ace or Rock Slide and Horn Leech for STAB, or Bulk Up for Defense would create a decent bulky set for Gogoat.

I also believe that altering the set by replacing Milk Drink with a move like Rock Slide or Aerial Ace would help Gogoat.
Aerial Ace is a good move for Gogoat to have.
It helps against the two types of Grass and Bug while also providing coverage against Flying.
Rock Slide on the other hand Provides good coverage against Bug, Flying and Ice types, while also providing an effective move to hit opposing grass types with.

I do believe that even one of these changes could really positively affect Gogoat and those who recieve it in the Randbats Format.

 

[bobomania]

I would like for the Gogoat set to be altered.
The things I like about it are its Tera Type and Ability.
It currently uses Earthquake, Horn Leech, Bulk Up, and Milk Drink.

However, this not only fails to effectively damage types such as Bug, and Flying; two of its weaknesses, but also its own type of Grass.
Gogoat isn't exactly known for having good natural bulk.
But by using a set consisting of moves like Leech Seed, Substitute, a coverage move like Aerial Ace or Rock Slide and Horn Leech for STAB, or Bulk Up for Defense would create a decent bulky set for Gogoat.

I also believe that altering the set by replacing Milk Drink with a move like Rock Slide or Aerial Ace would help Gogoat.
Aerial Ace is a good move for Gogoat to have.
It helps against the two types of Grass and Bug while also providing coverage against Flying.
Rock Slide on the other hand Provides good coverage against Bug, Flying and Ice types, while also providing an effective move to hit opposing grass types with.

I do believe that even one of these changes could really positively affect Gogoat and those who recieve it in the Randbats Format.

no, gogoat already functions optimally. the only positive suggestion here might be adding rock slide, but it is a much weaker more wallable coverage option compared to EQ

 

[platinumCheesecake]

I would like for the Gogoat set to be altered.
The things I like about it are its Tera Type and Ability.
It currently uses Earthquake, Horn Leech, Bulk Up, and Milk Drink.

However, this not only fails to effectively damage types such as Bug, and Flying; two of its weaknesses, but also its own type of Grass.
Gogoat isn't exactly known for having good natural bulk.
But by using a set consisting of moves like Leech Seed, Substitute, a coverage move like Aerial Ace or Rock Slide and Horn Leech for STAB, or Bulk Up for Defense would create a decent bulky set for Gogoat.

I also believe that altering the set by replacing Milk Drink with a move like Rock Slide or Aerial Ace would help Gogoat.
Aerial Ace is a good move for Gogoat to have.
It helps against the two types of Grass and Bug while also providing coverage against Flying.
Rock Slide on the other hand Provides good coverage against Bug, Flying and Ice types, while also providing an effective move to hit opposing grass types with.

I do believe that even one of these changes could really positively affect Gogoat and those who recieve it in the Randbats Format.

One thing to realize about Aerial Ace is that its base 60 power. Even Super Effective, it is only 7.5 bp stronger than neutral horn leech (which then further heals you). Trust me, if Gogoat had Drill peck or some stronger flying type move, we'd be way more likely to run it.

Even though gogoat cant hit bugs and flyings super effectively, it still performs pretty darn well. Most bugs are physical this gen, and basically cant muscle through gogoat after a bulk up or two. Sure, you dont have big numbers against them either, but at least you have recovery (something which basically no bugs have this gen). Flyings, I'm with you-- sucks to not be able to hit. Rock Slide does hit flying types, but then you just run into issues with Steels instead. And given the 25bp and 10 acc difference between rock slide and EQ, its hard to justify running slide.

Remember, after a tera, flyings are hitting you netural. Against physical flying types tera'd gogoat has the edge, even if its only doing like 30% at a time.

The only way we'd realistically add rock slide is if we removed one of bulk up or milk drink and ran 3 attacks. Removing milk drink makes gogoat a mon that clicks bulk once, attacks once for low damage, and dies (very bad). Cutting bulk up gives gogoat some decent longevity, but its low offenses and weak BP stab move mean its very likely it just gets set up on.

Thanks for the suggestion. We probably wont be implementing it, but if gogoat looks to be underperforming in future updates we'll consider rock slide.

 

[Emp]

Can we talk about hazard removal? There are currently 41 Pokémon with access to hazard removal compared to 102 with access to setting hazards. In regular formats, most teams carry a hazard remover—but in Random Battles, you’re often left without an option to deal with hazards.

I also feel like Pokemon like Iron Treads, Great Tusk, Corviknight and Torkoal should have a higher probability of carrying Rapid Spin / Defog as they more often than not carry these moves in OU.

No. of hazard removers:
20x Rapid Spin
17x Defog
2x Tidy Up
1x Mortal Spin
1x Court Change

No. of hazard setters:
49x Stealth Rock
20x Toxic Spikes
27x Spikes
3x Sticky Web
1x Ceaseless Edge
1x Stone Axe
1x Toxic Debris

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Can we talk about hazard removal? There are currently 41 Pokémon with access to hazard removal compared to 102 with access to setting hazards. In regular formats, most teams carry a hazard remover—but in Random Battles, you’re often left without an option to deal with hazards.

I also feel like Pokemon like Iron Treads, Great Tusk, Corviknight and Torkoal should have a higher probability of carrying Rapid Spin / Defog as they more often than not carry these moves in OU.

No. of hazard removers:
20x Rapid Spin
17x Defog
2x Tidy Up
1x Mortal Spin
1x Court Change

No. of hazard setters:
49x Stealth Rock
20x Toxic Spikes
27x Spikes
3x Sticky Web
1x Ceaseless Edge
1x Stone Axe
1x Toxic Debris

Can't really do anything about this without outright removing other moves from the relevant Pokemon. Unless you want Great Tusk to outright stop having coverage, or Corviknight to outright stop having bulk up ever, we can't do anything about this at all until Home move transfers or DLC move tutors.

Currently, all but six Pokemon that can have hazard removal have it in Randbats. And that number might even shrink. But we can't realistically do what you want us to do. We will remove Stone Edge from Iron Treads, but that's all we can afford to do.

 

[matthewssandslash]

Can't really do anything about this without outright removing other moves from the relevant Pokemon. Unless you want Great Tusk to outright stop having coverage, or Corviknight to outright stop having bulk up ever, we can't do anything about this at all until Home move transfers or DLC move tutors.

Currently, all but six Pokemon that can have hazard removal have it in Randbats. And that number might even shrink. But we can't realistically do what you want us to do. This is an outright no.

That's understandable. Question, though. Is it possible to weigh the system so that it makes you more likely to have a hazard remover? That might be against the spirit of random battles, though.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

That's understandable. Question, though. Is it possible to weigh the system so that it makes you more likely to have a hazard remover? That might be against the spirit of random battles, though.

It isn't possible to rig the weighting to be more than simple random chance or hard enforcement unless we open the floodgates to allow multiple copies of moves in a movepool, and I really don't want to start messing with that. Battle Factory doesn't even do that level of skewing the concept of "random", and one of the main criticisms from the dev-types of our new system is that it's too much like Battle Factory to truly exemplify the concept of "random", if that makes any sense. Not complaining about gen 9's new system personally, of course; it's been such a lifesaver for us for so many reasons.

On the other hand, it's technically possible to force hazard removal on all pokemon that get it. We just don't do that because it would almost completely remove good sets like specs hisui-braviary and quiver dance oricorio, and that's really not worth it.

Worth noting we do have one specific instance of a "hardcode" to force removal: Cryogonal only gets Haze if the team already has a remover. But we really, really try to avoid doing things like that as much as we can, because it becomes quite the mess to handle if we don't keep it generalized. I'm not particularly happy about that one being there, myself, because when random ladderers do /randbats cryogonal, they'll be afraid of Haze when in actuality Haze has like a 2% chance to appear or some shit, and that's effectively just us misinforming the populace. Doesn't feel good.

Perhaps I could investigate something like a clause to force hazard removal on only the Bulky Support role? Perhaps Fast Support as well? I think we should wait for Home transfers before I give something like that too heavy thought, though. Even something like that would have major negative ramifications on many Pokemon. I'll be thinking about that, though. Role-tied hazard removal enforcement...

My, I've realized I'm just rambling technical terms at this point. Don't mind me, I'm just typing out my thoughts process.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Double-post, but I figured I'd answer some questions and wrap up this whole removal thing; were deciding to do three things with respect to hazard removal. These are still subject to change, but these are our current plans.

To (most likely) take effect on may 7--
Iron Treads: -stone edge; choice items will no longer appear on it ever
Avalugg-hisui: -curse, +rapid spin
Giratina: Third set: Shadow Ball, Dragon Tail, Defog, Will-O-Wisp, Rest. Will get Chesto with Rest, and Leftovers without.

After Home releases, we may consider enforcing removal on the Bulky Support role. This will be a drastic change and will need to be thought through significantly.

 

[Bruh Wobuffet]

Why would lycanrock-dusk band set get drill run?
It already have close combat for steels and fire types don't want to switch into a rock type anyway, and for poision types have psychic fangs which is all stronger options.
it wasn't even tera ground for that purpose yeah
Thinks that stone edge is much better than drill run in any given matchup

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Why would lycanrock-dusk band set get drill run?
It already have close combat for steels and fire types don't want to switch into a rock type anyway, and for poision types have psychic fangs which is all stronger options.
it wasn't even tera ground for that purpose yeah
Thinks that stone edge is much better than drill run in any given matchup
View attachment 511441

That makes sense to me! I'll run it by the staff first, but I support cutting drill run. Do be cautious that this won't guarantee stone edge, though.

 

[Zaide]

Is Spidops getting stakeout over insomnia just a consequence of the ability ratings ?

I know stakeout isn't completely useless, but it's not like it hits hard even on a switch (and it's not like it threatens that many foes to switch unless you have a magic bouncer i feel like), and I feel like the added flexibility of insomnia (means your spidop can sponge spore/sleep powder, and it can't be rendered useless by such moves) is a bit more worth it, if something can be done code-wise. Both abilities end up being situationally useful only so that's definitely not a big deal.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Is Spidops getting stakeout over insomnia just a consequence of the ability ratings ?

I know stakeout isn't completely useless, but it's not like it hits hard even on a switch (and it's not like it threatens that many foes to switch unless you have a magic bouncer i feel like), and I feel like the added flexibility of insomnia (means your spidop can sponge spore/sleep powder, and it can't be rendered useless by such moves) is a bit more worth it, if something can be done code-wise. Both abilities end up being situationally useful only so that's definitely not a big deal.

It used to get insomnia back when it had Memento. Doesn't anymore, now that it always has an attack.

It's an ability ratings thing, mainly. Never felt the need to hardcode it because it's not actively bad.

 

[matthewssandslash]

It isn't possible to rig the weighting to be more than simple random chance or hard enforcement unless we open the floodgates to allow multiple copies of moves in a movepool, and I really don't want to start messing with that. Battle Factory doesn't even do that level of skewing the concept of "random", and one of the main criticisms from the dev-types of our new system is that it's too much like Battle Factory to truly exemplify the concept of "random", if that makes any sense. Not complaining about gen 9's new system personally, of course; it's been such a lifesaver for us for so many reasons.

On the other hand, it's technically possible to force hazard removal on all pokemon that get it. We just don't do that because it would almost completely remove good sets like specs hisui-braviary and quiver dance oricorio, and that's really not worth it.

Worth noting we do have one specific instance of a "hardcode" to force removal: Cryogonal only gets Haze if the team already has a remover. But we really, really try to avoid doing things like that as much as we can, because it becomes quite the mess to handle if we don't keep it generalized. I'm not particularly happy about that one being there, myself, because when random ladderers do /randbats cryogonal, they'll be afraid of Haze when in actuality Haze has like a 2% chance to appear or some shit, and that's effectively just us misinforming the populace. Doesn't feel good.

Perhaps I could investigate something like a clause to force hazard removal on only the Bulky Support role? Perhaps Fast Support as well? I think we should wait for Home transfers before I give something like that too heavy thought, though. Even something like that would have major negative ramifications on many Pokemon. I'll be thinking about that, though. Role-tied hazard removal enforcement...

My, I've realized I'm just rambling technical terms at this point. Don't mind me, I'm just typing out my thoughts process.

Here's another possibility which DEFINITELY might not be doable at all.
Can you have the entire team of six (have a chance to) be re-rolled if it doesn't have some form of hazard removal?

EG: I get Koraidon, Charizard, Slowking, Krookodile, Gholdengo, Weavile.

Possibility A) My whole team is immediately re-rolled until I get a poke that has hazard removal
Possibility B) There is (say) a 50-50 shot at re-rolling the entire team to give me another chance at hazard removal

That might be too heavy-handed, but it's at least an idea.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Here's another possibility which DEFINITELY might not be doable at all.
Can you have the entire team of six (have a chance to) be re-rolled if it doesn't have some form of hazard removal?

EG: I get Koraidon, Charizard, Slowking, Krookodile, Gholdengo, Weavile.

Possibility A) My whole team is immediately re-rolled until I get a poke that has hazard removal
Possibility B) There is (say) a 50-50 shot at re-rolling the entire team to give me another chance at hazard removal

That might be too heavy-handed, but it's at least an idea.

Can't do that, there's a nonzero chance of a crash/infinite loop with any condition of "reject pokemon until you find x", and with how many randbats are played daily we can't take that risk, no matter how small

 

[matthewssandslash]

Can't do that, there's a nonzero chance of a crash/infinite loop with any condition of "reject pokemon until you find x", and with how many randbats are played daily we can't take that risk, no matter how small

Would it be possible to re-roll it precisely once?

I'm not even convinced that's a good idea, lol, but it's an idea at least.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Would it be possible to re-roll it precisely once?

I'm not even convinced that's a good idea, lol, but it's an idea at least.

Possible? yes, but we don't really want to; there's not a precedent to doing anything like that

 

[Jelliefish]

Randoms is fun

 

[nibblesjibbles]

Cryogonal is too strong, must be removed

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Randoms is fun

D'aw, thanks.

Cryogonal is too strong, must be removed

We don't remove Pokemon. Its level will be nerfed if its winrate is too high. You can see wirnates by typing "/rwr" on PS.

 

[polomolok]

Hello, I would to show this situation with two Hisuian Zoroarks which happen to have the same moveset.

Both of the Hisuian Zoroark's moveset are:

• Shadow Ball
• Hyper Voice
• Focus Blast
• Nasty Plot

Don't be fooled by the Kilowattrel, that's also a Hisuian Zoroark. As you can see in the image, we have reached turn 82 since all our attacks are immune to each other. You might be wondering, why not just switch out? Well, switching in to a +6 Hyper Voice would be devastating, and can 1 hit the switched pokemon. Furthermore, it feels wasteful to switch out your own +6 Hisuian Zoroark and let the other team sweep with their own. Hence, we arrived at a point where we just waited to deplete each move so that we can safely switch in. But that took 82 turns.

The moveset is good, don't get me wrong, but I think Focus Blast should have a lower chance of being picked.
Checking the possible attacks that Hisuian Zoroark can get, the only 2 moves that can hit another Hisuian Zoroark are Flamethrower and U-Turn.
The combined weight of those 2 moves is 0.669, compared to Focus Blast's 0.7567. But of course, lowering the chance of Focus Blast won't prevent this scenario from happening again. It would only occur fewer times, but still possible to happen. Or, the moveset could be expanded with moves like Dark Pulse, Psychic, or Sludge Bomb.

Another suggestion would be to make use of Tera Blast instead of Focus Blast. Checking the possible tera types, the available ones are normal and fighting. It could make use of tera fairy so that it can mitigate dark-type attacks and also hit fellow Zoroark.

I unfortunately have not screenshotted the moveset during the match but I have saved the replay here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-1852985170-onc5dk2z712rvm4ezul2amshshm3gwhpw

If you reached this far, thanks for reading this silly story of two Hisuian Zoroarks that are wallbreakers but are stalling each other haha.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Hello, I would to show this situation with two Hisuian Zoroarks which happen to have the same moveset.

View attachment 511915

Both of the Hisuian Zoroark's moveset are:

• Shadow Ball
• Hyper Voice
• Focus Blast
• Nasty Plot

Don't be fooled by the Kilowattrel, that's also a Hisuian Zoroark. As you can see in the image, we have reached turn 82 since all our attacks are immune to each other. You might be wondering, why not just switch out? Well, switching in to a +6 Hyper Voice would be devastating, and can 1 hit the switched pokemon. Furthermore, it feels wasteful to switch out your own +6 Hisuian Zoroark and let the other team sweep with their own. Hence, we arrived at a point where we just waited to deplete each move so that we can safely switch in. But that took 82 turns.

The moveset is good, don't get me wrong, but I think Focus Blast should have a lower chance of being picked.
Checking the possible attacks that Hisuian Zoroark can get, the only 2 moves that can hit another Hisuian Zoroark are Flamethrower and U-Turn.
The combined weight of those 2 moves is 0.669, compared to Focus Blast's 0.7567. But of course, lowering the chance of Focus Blast won't prevent this scenario from happening again. It would only occur fewer times, but still possible to happen. Or, the moveset could be expanded with moves like Dark Pulse, Psychic, or Sludge Bomb.

Another suggestion would be to make use of Tera Blast instead of Focus Blast. Checking the possible tera types, the available ones are normal and fighting. It could make use of tera fairy so that it can mitigate dark-type attacks and also hit fellow Zoroark.

I unfortunately have not screenshotted the moveset during the match but I have saved the replay here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-1852985170-onc5dk2z712rvm4ezul2amshshm3gwhpw

If you reached this far, thanks for reading this silly story of two Hisuian Zoroarks that are wallbreakers but are stalling each other haha.

We will not give Hisuian Zoroark Tera Blast, because Tera Blast comes with many code stipulations and opportunity costs in Random Battles and is used very infrequently as a result (we allow only 26 tera blast users at any given time currently).

We will not remove Focus Blast or decrease the chance of Focus Blast on Hisuian Zoroark just because of hisuian zoroark mirrors. If that happens, it's on you for relying on something that can't hit hisuian zoro as the counter to hisuian zoro. We also can't fudge the weighting of things in general. That isn't how the format works.

 

[polomolok]

We will not give Hisuian Zoroark Tera Blast, because Tera Blast comes with many code stipulations and opportunity costs in Random Battles and is used very infrequently as a result (we allow only 26 tera blast users at any given time currently).

We will not remove Focus Blast or decrease the chance of Focus Blast on Hisuian Zoroark just because of hisuian zoroark mirrors. If that happens, it's on you for relying on something that can't hit hisuian zoro as the counter to hisuian zoro. We also can't fudge the weighting of things in general. That isn't how the format works.

I understand your points. Your reply is reasonable and I've realized that my suggestions were short-sighted. I do agree that this scenario could've been avoided earlier with proper moves. Nonetheless, thank you for hearing me out and replying.

 

[Z-nogyroP]

two questions!

first, is there a reason ironpress magnezone isn't an option? the current set has body press but having an additional set with ironpress + thunderbolt + flash cannon or maybe even something like magnet rise seems like it would be effective at getting rid of steel-types.

second, i noticed hypno is hardcoded to have insomnia. is there a reason insomnia is preferred over forewarn? both are very niche, but forewarn in my opinion has more of a use case, especially in random battles and particularly for a defensive pokemon like hypno. obviously a lot of the time you'll get more or less useless information since most pokemon have one high powered STAB move they always run, but i think there are enough cases where forewarn is a valuable tool, like knowing whether that lucario is physical or special, whether heatran has magma storm or lava plume, if floatzel is band or tera blast, scouting zoroarks, etc etc. compared to the relatively small number of pokemon with sleep moves, forewarn seems like it'd be more of a boon in more cases.

 

[pokeblade101]

two questions!

first, is there a reason ironpress magnezone isn't an option? the current set has body press but having an additional set with ironpress + thunderbolt + flash cannon or maybe even something like magnet rise seems like it would be effective at getting rid of steel-types.

second, i noticed hypno is hardcoded to have insomnia. is there a reason insomnia is preferred over forewarn? both are very niche, but forewarn in my opinion has more of a use case, especially in random battles and particularly for a defensive pokemon like hypno. obviously a lot of the time you'll get more or less useless information since most pokemon have one high powered STAB move they always run, but i think there are enough cases where forewarn is a valuable tool, like knowing whether that lucario is physical or special, whether heatran has magma storm or lava plume, if floatzel is band or tera blast, scouting zoroarks, etc etc. compared to the relatively small number of pokemon with sleep moves, forewarn seems like it'd be more of a boon in more cases.

Pokemon in randbats usually carry the moves with the highest power. Forewarn sounds rather bad in that context. Comparing that to 11 sleep users that can be blocked sounds way more useful especially when sleep can ruin your momentum.

As for ironpress we will discuss that.

 

[gali]

why is aftermath hdb drifblim a set? It has never done anything in any game I've ever seen it in. The fast support role which it supposedly fills is absolutely done better with sitrus+unburden.