Separating Genders

internet

getting paid to moderate
is a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnus
Moderator
Progressives could sure learn to name their ideas in a less provocative manner. Sure, "teach men not to rape" is a snappy phrase and i 100% agree with the notion people should perhaps be taught some basics on how to treat their fellows, but extracting the strawman that paints all men is trivial for your opponents when you tout your ideas with it.

There's also loonies out there who would say all men are rapists. Just like there are a wide variety of loonies deep into the spectrum in the other direction, there are a wide variety of loonies who are on your side of the spectrum. Holding an ideology means having to admit many people who agree with you are stupid, especially when the other guy includes people who "agree with you" but you don't really agree with them. Pretending everyone on "your side" is smart and reasonable and only the other side has extremists and idiots is one of the most self-harmful habits I see a lot of in internet debate.
 

internet

getting paid to moderate
is a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnus
Moderator
also the gender neutral bathrooms thing was a genuine question, seems pointless to start a new thread over as this is basically about that subject matter
 

Call of Winter

Banned deucer.
Oh, I actually meant to reply to the gender neutral bathroom question and forgot. I've always been for gender neutral bathrooms. I just find it more practical. I get why people are against the idea though, since I know a couple of people that would see it as giving men better access to perv on women.
 
I dont agree with gender neutral bathrooms and I dont see how thats more practical as call of winter puts it. Seems like it would cause more problems anyways.
 
To all the people who are opposed to gender neutral bathrooms I want to ask: do you also have separate bathrooms in your house? If not, does it cause any problems? And if not, why would these problems suddenly exist in say a restaurant?

That being said, urinals are really practical, and some men are uncomfortable with women looking at them while using one. So my guess would be that in public places there should be a urinal and a non-urinal part.
 
To all the people who are opposed to gender neutral bathrooms I want to ask: do you also have separate bathrooms in your house? If not, does it cause any problems? And if not, why would these problems suddenly exist in say a restaurant?

That being said, urinals are really practical, and some men are uncomfortable with women looking at them while using one. So my guess would be that in public places there should be a urinal and a non-urinal part.
I'm not opposed to Gender neutral bathrooms so long as they're not the only bathrooms available.*I.E a men's bathroom, a Women's bathroom, and a neutral bathroom together rather than only gender neutral bathrooms* However, the argument I would make against this is that bathrooms in your house are typically used by someone you know / care about enough to respect their privacy. This isn't always the case but you'll usually know the person in your bathroom. This is not the case for a public restroom. In a public restroom, most of the time, you don't know who's in the stall next to yours. What kind of fantasies they have or what kind of person they are. Simply put, this is a fairly easy way to increase the risk of Sexual Assault / Voyeurism. The simplest solution I'd have for this is to not only have gender neutral bathrooms.

Also for Urinals, an easy solution would be to put a door behind it. Also, do something more with the urinals so that women can use them too. I always thought it was weird that men have a method of not needing to sit down to piss but not women. Maybe it's more complicated than it needs to be? Or maybe women just don't care. I don't know. I'm not a Woman. XD
 

WaterBomb

Two kids no brane
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
To all the people who are opposed to gender neutral bathrooms I want to ask: do you also have separate bathrooms in your house? If not, does it cause any problems? And if not, why would these problems suddenly exist in say a restaurant?
It's worth noting that bathrooms in your house are used by one person at a time, whereas public bathrooms are used by many at a time. The theoretical problems with unisex public bathrooms would only exist because of that difference. There's often not enough practical space to make public bathrooms unisex and single user only.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM
If you're worried about voyeurism can't you just simply make all stalls sufficiently closed off from each other that no one can watch from under the door or whatever? Seems like an easily fixable problem. There doesn't even need to be room in between them, just no gaps under the door and stuff. Moreover, stuff like that can also happen between people of the same gender, so you're not exactly banning that out by making gender separate bathrooms.
 
I had considered making the walls bigger as I was making the post. However, I think that would come with a ventilation issue. But then that could be rectifiable by installing a ceiling / wall fan so I'm not really sure why this isn't already a thing. In any case, while yes this can happen between people of the same gender, the problem can be exacerbated by having 2 opposing genders sense heterosexuality is far more common than homosexuality. Closing off the walls and putting in proper ventilation would be a good fix for the issue though.
 
It seems to me like adopting gender neutral bathrooms brings no positives to the table, while coming with a bunch of arguable negatives. There isn't really a reason to change the status quo.
 

Aurella

✧・゚: *Reveries*:・゚✧
is a Pre-Contributor
Are gender-neutral bathrooms really the question here tho? :think:

Just seems like one of those pointless right-leaning bait topics meant to fetishize the paranoia of a changing, and more accepting world. Really ironic to scoff at "teach men not to rape", yet bring up and entertain impractical theoretical topics that intentionally provoke ideas and fears of strangers and sexual assault in the first place (i.e sudden mass gender-neutral bathrooms).

You can't disregard one sense of paranoia, only to introduce your own fuel to one within the same breathe.

But that's just my two cents.
 
Last edited:

rau

chesto
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Are gender-neutral bathrooms really the question here tho? :think:

Just seems like one of those pointless right-leaning bait topics meant to fetishize the paranoia of a changing, and more accepting world. Really ironic to scoff at "teach men not to rape", yet bring up and entertain impractical theoretical topics that intentionally provoke ideas and fears of strangers and sexual assault in the first place (i.e sudden mass gender-neutral bathrooms).

You can't disregard one sense of paranoia, only to introduce your own fuel to one within the same breathe.

But that's just my two cents.
So you agree or disagree with gender neutral bathrooms?
 

internet

getting paid to moderate
is a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnus
Moderator
Are gender-neutral bathrooms really the question here tho? :think:

Just seems like one of those pointless right-leaning bait topics meant to fetishize the paranoia of a changing, and more accepting world. Really ironic to scoff at "teach men not to rape", yet bring up and entertain impractical theoretical topics that intentionally provoke ideas and fears of strangers and sexual assault in the first place (i.e sudden mass gender-neutral bathrooms).

You can't disregard one sense of paranoia, only to introduce your own fuel to one within the same breathe.

But that's just my two cents.
I'm not right wing. I want you to convey your ideas in a reasonable manner because i agree with their contents.

The reason i asked about ppls thoughts on gender neutral bathrooms is because the thread is about the benefits and detriments of women-exclusive spaces. It seemed like a relevant question to me.
 

Aurella

✧・゚: *Reveries*:・゚✧
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm not right wing. I want you to convey your ideas in a reasonable manner because i agree with their contents.

The reason I asked about ppls thoughts on gender-neutral bathrooms is that the thread is about the benefits and detriments of women-exclusive spaces. It seemed like a relevant question to me.
I actually had a change of heart since I originally posted that, so I appreciate the honesty. I'm naturally suspicious when anyone openly brings up the topic without immediately divulging a stance because it is a right-leaning bait topic, usually posed "introspectively" in order to invite the maximum capacity of paranoia possible. Though when I said right-leaning bait topic I wasn't referencing how you might place on the spectrum.
So you agree or disagree with gender neutral bathrooms?
I do not care and I am not threatened by gender-neutral bathrooms. I've actually been in one more than once now.

I'm not going to answer on an agree/disagree binary because I think that's silly. Places that have gender-neutral bathrooms didn't plop them there for shits and giggles or w/o concern for safety, and obviously, if they remain it's because there's no issue about it.

It's pretty obvious tho that they would never be introduced for example in a public place (dirty large bus station) where it wouldn't be a positive or safe addition. Have you ever once heard a complaint about a gender-neutral bathroom, compared to complaints of only the theory of one existing? That's a huge difference lol.

If you still actually want me to answer on a disagree/agree binary then that proves you only consider this an all-or-nothing, black-and-white topic. And that approach to thought towards this topic is foolish when there's obviously a nuance and execution to multiple occupancy gender-neutral bathrooms that clearly hasn't ruffled feathers outside of pundits and social theory gnashing lol.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that gender-neutral family rest & changing rooms have existed for god knows how long.
 
Uni-sex toilets already exist here in Australia so that won't be a concern. Secondly is probably maybe the gym sessions have some activities and exercises that only women benefit exclusively? I dunno make your theories.

The facility belongs to the owner so I respect his rules and regulations so if you aren't too happy there's always other gyms.
 
I remember a really lefty news program in Australia once had a genuine conversation saying that guys should get together and talk to each other about how raping people is bad. The phrase "teach men not to rape" sounds like a dumb hyperbole at best and an outright attack at worst,

I've been banned from my library during exam periods because they decided it was woman's reading day or some shit and thus they wouldn't let me in. There's been times when I haven't been allowed to attend career expos because they were female only despite being aimed at goddamned 16 year olds.

I'm nervous guy that barely has a sexuality and has never even hit on a girl in his entire life. Yet I'm being made an enemy despite not giving rats ass about the issue and not doing anything to aggravate it.

I'm aggressively left on basically every issue that exists, but when you generalise the other side as the privileged enemy, you really make me want to don that Maga cap just to fuck with people.

As long as I'm provided facilities that are of equal quality to whatever women get, I don't care. There are people who spend like 6 years of their life in all boys/girls schools and come out as normal individuals. Clearly being in a gender segregated environment for a bit doesn't have too much of a negative effect. And if they are happier with it, who am I to stop them.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
mhm, in 2018 we're all centrists. if you say it enough, maybe you'll start believing it, but I won't.

cw: self harm

honestly i think it would be helpful if people sat down with boys and told them that a significant percentage, perhaps even most of them women they will meet and or/be in relationships with, have been a victim of sexual violence, 90% of which is done by men that are no different than themselves. It's the truth. Educating men on what rape is and what consent is, is why I, despite living most of my life identifying as a man, I am not a rapist. Why are you dismissive of those conversations? You act like you're this huge victim, but anecdotal evidence has a long way to go against the weight of statistical evidence about sexual violence.

The career expo thing sounds like some type of attempt to meet a STEM gap, I'm sure you're familiar with the idea that women are 'under represented' in tech industry, since you're so strong on 'left issues' right? Personally I can't say I want to use much money to get girls into tech industry, but here we are, the people who you see as being 'on the left' all together, all completely the same, a homogenous slate of leftists, have a lot more money than me to fund that type of event. I guess it's like: they're dumb, but not because of what they believe, but because of how they act on it. I guess every person 'on the left' as you see the left or 'the feminists' should be personally apologizing to you for some dumb festival that actually asked you to leave because you were 'male' (i am extremely skeptical of this story).

if you've 'never hit on a girl', and thats something you've wanted to do? why? maybe you have some ideas how you relate to women that are holding you back?

feel free to put on the maga hat lol. how do you think that is going to contribute to your development as a person? that type of world view is literally toxic, have fun. you're not fucking w anyone but urself. Babe if you want to fuck someone, make an ok cupid or a tinder... but I didn't give you the idea

I myself go to therapy, every Thursday. In therapy I talk about things like 'how I relate to women', if you want a term to reflect on.
 
The anecdotes and maga hat and all that are from an individual perspective. I know they don't matter and I'm not gonna decide to rape woman or vote Trump because I was banned from my library but it shows that your habit of antagonising makes enemies.

The never hit on a girl was to show that I'm sexually reserved and as an individual. Of course I've done stuff before but the point is to show that I'm a would-be bystander in this issue had a blanket statement not compelled me to take a side.

Yeah I get the STEM gap and expos like that are great but literally banning men from even attending is unfair. If a similar expo was available to me I wouldn't even care but I was 16, I was as lost for a career and my future as anybody else was.

As for the line itself in your response you yourself phrased it better. "educate men about consent" In one line you used more neutral vocabulary and I would find it a lot easier to explain to have a conversation about consent to a budding 13 year old than saying "Oi yknow that rape thing? don't do that, don't rape people" You can spread the exact same message without turning the other side or potential middle-grounders into the enemy.

I get it, I really do. As an environmental advocate I feel tempted to say "you fucking cunt voting for conservatives funded by energy companies you're killing the goddamn planet" but all that does is force guilt and anger on to people who wouldn't otherwise give a shit. Some may join your argument but most will see you as the antagonist.

Any phrase of that manner whether it be "Teach men not to rape" or "Gays spread Aids" doesn't convince anyone and invites members of that group to say "But I don't?!" and you end up causing people to get caught up on these slogan-esque statements no matter if they are true/said with well intention/troll lies.

When you argue you might argue from the viewpoint of a group but your yourself are an individual. Any statement that seems directed towards you or born from an assumption or generalisation of the group you belong to will either do nothing or will just fan the fury of the other party. This is especially true in topics where an individual hasn't picked their group like race or gender.
 

WaterBomb

Two kids no brane
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
It's important to realize that 'rape' encompasses a wide variety of situations. Some people (hopefully not that many) still believe 'rape' only applies to violently forcing a person to have sex with you against their will. Most people (I assume) are at least aware that rape can occur in other forms than that. However, I would wager that the vast majority of people (including myself) would probably still be surprised at just how many scenarios could be considered 'rape', and how easily even a sexually reserved person could commit it. Even if you use other terms such as 'sexual harassment' it is still in the same vein. How many of us can honestly say they've never done anything in their entire life that could be considered sexual harassment as it is defined today? Probably not many. This is why we shouldn't feel offended at being 'lumped in'.

"Teaching men not to rape" is less about the violent act you see depicted in movies and more about educating men on how to properly view and respect women/others from a sexual standpoint. If you hold an appropriate view of other people to begin with, you won't feel the impulse to act in a way that could be considered harassment or rape in the first place.

My personal opinion is that we need to, as a society, stop putting sex on a pedestal. For decades, even centuries, we've glorified sex in every way and made it out to be the ultimate leisure activity that we simply can't live without. We're bombarded with sexually charged images designed to tug on our biological instincts. We need to get people to realize that, though sex is enjoyable and provides a very intimate connection between people, it is not bloody required to live a happy lifestyle. I think as long as this is the case we'll have a difficult time truly eradicating rape. It's probably impossible, but I feel it would be the most complete way to eliminate rape. Just my onion, of course.
 

internet

getting paid to moderate
is a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnus
Moderator
If you need to explain what your slogan means so people don't get mad it's a bad slogan. You can make endless cases about what the meaning of the slogan is or how people who get mad at it are filth, but even if both are true you could also just say "Teach children about consent." and convince people orders of magnitude easier.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
yeah thats great, except it's no one's slogan except for Karoshi Dragon's in a strawman lol, where do people go around using that as their slogan? so thanks for the tip internet, but as far as I can tell the only substance to your advice is in propping up a strawman and deflecting away from the gendered dynamics of sexual violence.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top