serious coronavirus thread

[tcr]

Every Cong thread is a hot takes thread if you're bold enough



Is this a serious question? I don't think he's "build a secret lair inside a volcano and laugh maniacally" type of evil, but I absolutely think he (along with many other high-ranking politicians and leaders) has been knowingly and consistently putting "the economy" and the wealth of the rich before human lives, and I find that despicable. People here aren't outraged at underfunded health systems and foot-dragging, reluctant half-measures (which is leading to and will lead to god knows how many avoidable deaths), but they're outraged at an internet stranger not feigning fake sympathy for a man directly responsible for this (and who bragged about handshaking with COVID patients just a month ago). It's ridiculous.

This is incredibly ironic. You justify your ambivalent desire to laugh at someone who is possibly dying by citing their own seeming lack of empathy towards others dying. Ignoring politics, you are precisely the problem you point out as being problematic, the only difference is you are not in a place free from consequences due to lack of impact.

No one said you had to feel sympathy for the guy, I surely don't. We all will die and if it is our time it is our time, but in the meantime I will still remember that he is a human being just like me. I do not know his history, I do not know his motivations, I do not know his alternatives. In light of recognizing my own ignorance I choose to practice compassion towards the doubt.

"Oppose the act but love the person - and make every effort to help him change his ways. Even as we oppose the actions have compassion towards the actor" - Dalai Lama

 

[Jerry the great]

My god what happened to this thread will I took me a little break from it? Eh oh well.

I mean look, I myself do not have much sympathy for a man who risked thousands of lives. But partying when he could potentially DIE, is where I draw a red line. I mean, there are some exceptions (like Hitler, who purposefully killed over 10 million Germans and over 5 million Jews via semi-enslaving everyone into doing it just because and trying to rule all of Europe just for greed) but he isn't one of them. I mean, if anything, I say what he did was good and bad at the same time! Because he wanted to make sure the economy still functioned as normal, and as someone else stated, there is no true way to deal with this! I mean, I know for sure I could never in a trillion years find the perfect solution, and I'm sure none of us could either! So, in scenarios like these, you got to choose from what you can do! I mean, I'd love to see you try to find a solution that works just fine! Look, we folks saying it's not right to laugh at someone who could die, we are doing it for a reason. And OK, I wouldn't say it's downright EVIL as I said before, but rather, incredibly rude and disrespectful.

 

[p2]

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article?deliveryName=USCDC_333-DM25287

Results show that the doubling time early in the epidemic in Wuhan was 2.3–3.3 days. Assuming a serial interval of 6–9 days, we calculated a median R0 value of 5.7 (95% CI 3.8–8.9). We further show that active surveillance, contact tracing, quarantine, and early strong social distancing efforts are needed to stop transmission of the virus.

CDC confirming that early Chinese estimates of r0 between 4.7 and 6.6 [1] and r0 between 6.11 and 8.18 [2] were not exactly too far off the real thing. Pretty scary shit considering most media outlets here pushed the idea of r0=3.

 

[mushamu]

So my mom works as a nurse and she's treating coronavirus patients. I'm worried about her health but I also respect her a ton for putting herself out there in this time of need in order to treat this deadly virus. Google Doodle is featuring a "Thank You Coronavirus Helpers" throughout the next two weeks which aims to praise the people who try to treat coronavirus. Doctors, scientists, emergency service workers, sanitation workers, farmers are all being featured in the drawings as people who stand up in this time of need and help keep society on its feet. I'd just like to say from the bottom of my heart that I admire everyone who works to treat the virus as heroes that are doing god's bidding. If you're one of the people and you're reading this thread, then thank you so much for your hard work! The world is in a tough time right now, but we wouldn't be able to recover without these people who are hands-on working to stop the virus.

 

[VKCA]

People need to stop letting politics interfere with anything they say, simple as that. Just because you don't agree with how he handled the virus (I don't either, personally I think ALL countries had an outright terrible approach to this bar Singapore and South Korea,) Doesn't mean it's okay to wish death on him, if you want to wish death on people for incompetence of dealing with coronavirus then you're wishing death on over 50%, if not more, of world leaders. It's not right in any shape or form to celebrate the death of someone (there are very obvious exceptions, and Boris is nowhere near them lol)

Boris johnson: fine because he got icu access with very mild symptoms

Thousands of brits: dying because there's not enough healthcare to take care of them

The nhs after getting funding cuts through several years of conservative governments:



Mb ur right this has nothing to do with politics, stupid me

 

[p2]

If you think thousands of deaths are an NHS-exclusive issue then you should check out Italy, France, Spain etc.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf - France and Italy are considered 1 & 2 best healthcare systems respectively with Spain in 7th (UK in 18th for comparison sake). It's a lot more than the NHS having funding cut over the years.

 

[gvmgvm40]

If you think thousands of deaths are an NHS-exclusive issue then you should check out Italy, France, Spain etc.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf - France and Italy are considered 1 & 2 best healthcare systems respectively with Spain in 7th (UK in 18th for comparison sake). It's a lot more than the NHS having funding cut over the years.

Of course the virus is going to kill people and there's more to it than just healthcare, but the point is keeping everything else constant, you'd expect it to kill more in underfunded health systems than in well-funded health systems. The comparison isn't Britain vs Italy, it's Britain now vs Britain without healthcare cuts, it's about deaths that could've been avoided. "It kills people in Spain and Italy too, gotcha" is sidestepping the point.

 

[McGrrr]

but the point is keeping everything else constant, you'd expect it to kill more in underfunded health systems than in well-funded health systems. The comparison isn't Britain vs Italy, it's Britain now vs Britain without healthcare cuts, it's about deaths that could've been avoided.

Look, I didn't want to type this reply as it's really its own thread. Yes, you're right from a very low resolution point of view that all else held equal throwing more resources at something will make it better. Unfortunately, that's not how complex problems are solved in the real world, because all else is not held equal and there are infinite layers of consequences of such a decision.

Let's break it down at a basic level:

Where does the additional funding come from?

• Tax: if the government raises taxes, does it necessarily generate more tax revenue? Higher income tax is an incentive for the rich to emigrate, so some of them would disappear from the taxable pool entirely. Realistically, it's always the middle classes that get squeezed. Similarly, higher corporation tax is an incentive for companies to relocate abroad. If they stay, would this feed through to lower wages and unemployment, and therefore lower consumption? Higher consumption taxes disproportionately impact the poor
• Borrowing: UK debt to GDP was 63.3% in 2009 after the last crisis and has only increased since. Had we borrowed more, what would be the impact on the creditworthiness of the UK? If we were downgraded, how much more would the country pay on interest? Remember that debt is borrowing against future generations, and debt needs to be paid sooner or later (I realise that we now live in a world where this rulebook has gone out the window)
• Reduce other spending: probably the best solution, but from where? The entire public sector was on a freeze already

There's plenty wrong with the NHS beyond funding that make it very inefficient. Throwing more money at it in perpetuity ensures that these problems would never go away. The one benefit of enforcing financial responsibility is that in theory the inefficiencies can be addressed. However, in practice, it's the public sector and they're really really bad at this for many reasons that I don't have the patience to go into.

I don't like the Tories, I've never voted Conservative, and I'm not justifying their general incompetence; I'm pointing out that nothing is nearly as simple as people seem to think.

 

[p2]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...7172ee-7b44-11ea-a311-adb1344719a9_story.html

Africa is gonna go through hell, Ebola AND Corona is gonna absolutely ravage affected countries. There is also a severe lack of ventilators in general across the continent, and the rest of the world is in bad shape right now, this is gonna be very difficult to contain and I suspect a lot of deaths are going to come from here.

reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-conte/italy-extends-coronavirus-lockdown-until-may-3-prime-minister-idUSKCN21S1YL

Italy lockdown extended for another 3 weeks, this is just a sign of things to come for those behind Italy's curve, personally expecting the UK to be locked down until August

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248689459035549699

Turkey on lockdown for 48 hours, far too short and is not going to help at all unfortunately.

If you have had your tonsils removed as a child, you may be at greater risk of covid19 and other respiratory conditions. This is a given as the immune cells in your tonsils produce antibodies vs throat and lung infections, but I have seen very little news coverage on this.

 

[termi]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251582266251243525

the democratic party is unapologetically adopting the sinophobic narrative that this is all china's fault in order to once again make this election about how trump is somehow in service of foreign agents. why? is it not enough to say "he mismanaged this, he is not fit to be leader, here's how we should have done things instead"? earlier, biden called the travel ban on china xenophobic, but at the end of the day it turns out that using xenophobia to hide your own failings and lack of vision is a bipartisan tradition

Hide

if you are american, do not vote

 

[Celticpride]

if you are american, do not vote

Oh ffs. So you’re willing to not only punt on the Supreme Court but also every down ballot race too in an effort to stick it to “the establishment”?

 

[termi]

Oh ffs. So you’re willing to not only punt on the Supreme Court but also every down ballot race too in an effort to stick it to “the establishment”?

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

@americans: vote green. they're basically bernie, & at 15% they get on the debate stage!

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

@americans: vote green. they're basically bernie, & at 15% they get on the debate stage!

It's easy to say this, but I'd personally like to see the Green Party get elected to lower offices first and prove they're able to govern instead of them jumping straight to making runs for President, where people can just point fingers at them for spoiling the election whenever a Democrat loses.

 

[EV]

Oh ffs. So you’re willing to not only punt on the Supreme Court but also every down ballot race too in an effort to stick it to “the establishment”?

She doesn't even go here.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

It's easy to say this, but I'd personally like to see the Green Party get elected to lower offices first and prove they're able to govern instead of them jumping straight to making runs for President, where people can just point fingers at them for spoiling the election whenever a Democrat loses.

i get that, but if they're the party representing your views, i say go for it. :) can't be any worse than certain other parties.
also, democrats are always going to point fingers when they lose, and rarely where they should.
i'll try not to say anything else on the topic because this isn't really the thread for this.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Democratic voters are tunneling so hard on electoral politics that they're unwilling to make even a cursory remark against the Democratic party for appropriating the right's xenophobic rhetoric. Is continuing the marginalization of certain groups for the sake of progress a necessary consequence of life under neoliberalism? That's not very intersectional. Maybe it doesn't matter because most of the people who are being disenfranchised can't vote.

More disappointing than the brazen xenophobia present in this type of media, as well as online, even within this very community, is self-identified progressives' unwillingness to call it out. It's almost as if their investment in causes they care about is rooted in identity politics. That's not progressivism; that's xenophobia with a bachelor's degree and corporate diversity training. How are you going to get others to care about causes that aren't immediately relevant to them when you're not already demonstrating the same empathy you demand from voters?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...of-racist-attacks-during-coronavirus-pandemic
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/...J7tscrpFT-tmHCY4JkwTsoEEHSz47O84hNh74xls-8dBY
This is where I lived for a year and a half

Life is happening beyond the election; if your only imperative is showing up at the ballot box, then who do you really care about?

 

[billymills]

It's not racist to say the Chinese Communist Party played a significant role in letting this outbreak get as widespread as it did. They shut up any medical experts trying to warn people about the virus, and downplayed any economic concerns.

Other countries, such as Taiwan and South Korea were exemplary in solving the crisis. It is most certainly not an Asian issue, it is an issue with the Chinese Communist Party.

The reason it was so difficult to shut down travel is because of economic concerns. There was a sense of propriety in keeping international travel to China open, which allowed to the virus to spread. Optics, economy, and health care decisions are inextricably linked, and it is not unreasonable for Biden to criticize Trump for that. (There was a ton of optics just in closing the US-Canada border.)

That said, if the virus originated in an area of the United States where there is not much health care, I think the situation would be exactly flipped. Nothing about the American response has indicated that they would have handled it any better than the CCP. Though in my opinion that means both governments should be criticized, as opposed to no criticism at all.


Edit: I haven't eaten at a restaurant in over a month. I don't think it's just Chinese restaurants that are suffering.

 

[Celticpride]

Democratic voters are tunneling so hard on electoral politics that they're unwilling to make even a cursory remark against the Democratic party for appropriating the right's xenophobic rhetoric. Is continuing the marginalization of certain groups for the sake of progress a necessary consequence of life under neoliberalism? That's not very intersectional. Maybe it doesn't matter because most of the people who are being disenfranchised can't vote.

More disappointing than the brazen xenophobia present in this type of media, as well as online, even within this very community, is self-identified progressives' unwillingness to call it out. It's almost as if their investment in causes they care about is rooted in identity politics. That's not progressivism; that's xenophobia with a bachelor's degree and corporate diversity training. How are you going to get others to care about causes that aren't immediately relevant to them when you're not already demonstrating the same empathy you demand from voters?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...of-racist-attacks-during-coronavirus-pandemic
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/...J7tscrpFT-tmHCY4JkwTsoEEHSz47O84hNh74xls-8dBY
This is where I lived for a year and a half

Life is happening beyond the election; if your only imperative is showing up at the ballot box, then who do you really care about?

If you really lived in Boston you wouldn’t view Chinatown’s downturn as a racist thing. It’s not. Every bar and restaurant in the city is hurting. Chinatown may have been hit first due to the financial district and Copley closing first, but Comm Ave and the North End for example weren’t far behind. There was no Lunar New Year as the article points out, but since then St Patricks day was underwhelming, Marathon Monday was cancelled, opening day at Fenway was postponed, there’s not going to be May/June playoffs, I could go on. So, isn’t it identity politics to assume that Chinatown’s plight is somehow meaningfully worse than any other restaurant business in the city? Showing empathy would be realizing that every business in the city is in the same boat. Painting Chinatown as some sort of marginalized case seems to be the essence of what you’re arguing against.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

When I bring up systematic xenophobia, I am not saying that every single person's decision to avoid Asian-owned restaurants/businesses was motivated by xenophobia. I'm not interested in taking an individual act out of context and assigning a value judgment to it; rather, I am saying that this heightened climate of racism informs and affects the decisions of different people in different ways. For some, this has resulted in them exacting violence against Asian-Americans such as in the incidences I referenced above; for others, this has resulted in their refusal to patronize Asian businesses while continuing to frequent others. Still for others, this has manifested itself as excusing xenophobia that comes from the Democratic party, maybe because they believe it's not xenophobia or because they believe it must be ignored for the sake of winning the upcoming election. Are you arguing racism starts and ends at acts of violence and doesn't extend to other avenues? Are you suggesting that the labeling of the "Chinese virus" somehow incited violence against Asian-Americans but didn't make certain people less inclined to dine at Asian restaurants?

The narrative you paint that completely eradicates racism from the picture makes far less sense than mine, which simply claims that racism has negatively affected the patronage of Asian businesses. I am not denying the widespread economic impact of the virus, nor does the article I linked, which states, "All the financial factors are compounded by the stirring racism," alluding to the widespread economic downturn that nobody is denying exists. I'm very much aware that small business as a whole are suffering, and discussion on that front is more than welcome in this thread. That said, in the past thread of conversation, nobody was talking about it. If someone had brought the subject up, and out of nowhere, I tried to make the conversation about how Asian-owned businesses are being disproportionately affected, then yes, that would've been "identity politics." That did not happen. The subject of termi's post was the Democratic party appropriating the GOP's xenophobic rhetoric, and subsequent posters chose to make the issue wholly about voting while ignoring the point most salient to a COVID-19 thread.

 

[billymills]

Eo I'm not disputing the fact there is systematic xenophobia that has been inflamed as a result of the coronavirus.

My main issue is that you jumbling real concerns with China's role in the coronavirus with xenophobic rhetoric. There are plenty of reasons to be concerned with China's handling of the pandemic, and plenty of reasons to be concerned with how the Trump administration dealt with the CCP. The only thing that pisses me off in Biden's ad is that he highlighted 40000 people came to China after the travel ban was signed (what did he think it should do, go into place that very second?). That part does seem xenophobic, but it's hardly the main message.

All this talk about Chinese restaurants seems way out of proportion. All restaurants are suffering. It doesn't matter if chinese restaurants are down 90% and italian restaurants are down 80%. Neither is sustainable.

 

[brightobject]

Old news at this point but i cant believe trump told his base to drink bleach

It makes me wonder how misinformation might have been limited if this crisis struck further away from election day, i get the impression trump is compelled to make more appearances and steal the spotlight from/undermine/contradict his own health experts because he wants to boost visibility in the face of the coming election. In the same way that he began the crisis by downplaying and ignoring it hoping it would go away and not interfere, now he's reversed course to maintain an overwhelming presence.

 

[Myzozoa]

https://pressthink.org/2020/05/the-...q5u-8I1xYNnK9z2OnhgmnVbalk_LlEHnpiX9XaeLTgHa4

"The plan is to have no plan, to let daily deaths between one and three thousand become a normal thing, and then to create massive confusion about who is responsible— by telling the governors they’re in charge without doing what only the federal government can do, by fighting with the press when it shows up to be briefed, by fixing blame for the virus on China or some other foreign element, and by “flooding the zone with shit,” Steve Bannon’s phrase for overwhelming the system with disinformation, distraction, and denial, which boosts what economists call “search costs” for reliable intelligence. ...

...To wing it without a plan is merely the best this government can do, given who heads the table. The manufacture of confusion is just the ruins of Trump’s personality meeting the powers of the presidency. There is no genius there, only a damaged human being playing havoc with our lives."

on why the trump administration contradicts US and international intelligence reports on the origins of covid-19

 

[RaikouLover]

My main issue is that you jumbling real concerns with China's role in the coronavirus with xenophobic rhetoric. There are plenty of reasons to be concerned with China's handling of the pandemic, and plenty of reasons to be concerned with how the Trump administration dealt with the CCP. The only thing that pisses me off in Biden's ad is that he highlighted 40000 people came to China after the travel ban was signed (what did he think it should do, go into place that very second?). That part does seem xenophobic, but it's hardly the main message.

There was no xenophobia in Biden's ad. That post was just a reach from a sour Bernie supporter ("don't vote!") with an agenda. Bernie or Busters will do anything to make the false equivalency of Trump and Biden.

As for COVID-19, this outbreak is surreal. In my opinion, we are looking at at least 2-3 years. That vaccine they're hoping for won't become a reality on any decent timetable. Vaccines don't grow on trees; they take years to perfect. There is so much unknown about this virus and we're fighting this war blind with a completely incompetent and disinterested Federal government. This outbreak likely will unfortunately end when the population reaches herd immunity. No one knows how long and how many dead Americans that threshold will take.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

There was no xenophobia in Biden's ad. That post was just a reach from a sour Bernie supporter ("don't vote!") with an agenda. Bernie or Busters will do anything to make the false equivalency of Trump and Biden.

Your assumptions about my politics are both untrue and unsubstantiated. My support for Sanders was limited to the token vote I cast for him in the primary, and I intend to vote (grudgingly) in the general election for the purpose of harm reduction. Thanks for proving my point about the folly of viewing society through nothing but the lens of electoral politics, though.

billymills: I agree that the travel ban is the main point of critique, but that's not all; the constant references to "The Chinese" instead of "The Chinese government" or even "China" should not be overlooked. The most striking example is how the language of a direct quote is changed:

Language such as "The Chinese" is frequently used to stir up nationalist aggression and leverage xenophobia to get people onboard with US foreign aggression. Look at Trump's tweets and how he alternates between China / the Chinese people and the Chinese depending on whether he wants to praise or criticize (and look at this tweet for an even more ridiculous example involving multiple nations; like the Democratic party's ad, he adjusts the language from an original source). I am not arguing there is no room anywhere for criticism of the Chinese government, but if the Democratic party can't do it without othering Asian-Americans in the process (and they can, but they won't), then I'm less inclined to accept this good-faith reading of their advertising.