oh god, this wrecks my whole team lmao
Hello and welcome to the metagame!Hey,
I am new to this meta and just played my second game. I do have mold breaker on my team. I used stealth rock which got bounced back by magic bounce and I used earth power which got blocked by levitate. Both should have been countered by mold breaker. Do I miss something?
Here is the replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699700880
And here is the team:
Xurkitree @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 12 HP / 248 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Signal Beam
- Energy Ball
- Volt Switch
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Conversion
Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 24 SpA
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 12 HP / 248 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
Basculin @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Crunch
- Zen Headbutt
Mimikyu @ Fairium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
I think that Cheek Pouch + Harvest + Gluttony + Prankster needs to be looked at. This strategy takes actually 0 skill and is actually like a dumb version of moody tbh (when paired with a starf berry). All users can get +2 in any stat almost every turn, and to make things worse, Kyub goes through unaware, so no stalling this monster out. This strategy, though vastly underrated, packs a powerful punch, and even prepared teams struggle to take it down, especially if you add in the fact that stamina works with this strategy particularly well, due to the one counter being Skill Link and having a 40 or more PP move, which are usually low power and therefore unviable.
Furthermore, legitimately any pokemon can use this strategy, and still be somewhat good with it. With all of those abilites, stamina, and magic guard or unaware, this strategy is simply unbeatable except by PP stall, and even if you stall 1 pokemon, you have 5 more with identical sets ready in the back.
Thank you, and please look into this.
excadrillThis meta looks fun! But isn't the team below a little unbeatable?
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Like, how do you beat Fluffy + Unaware + Regen? It even has Flash Fire so the opponent can't take advantage of Fluffy! You'd be inclined to use a special attacker to break through this, right? But Is there any Special Attacker Chansey doesn't wall without set up?
I think something has to be done to address this kind of team, cuz' it genuinely seems broken, before you say anything about Corrosion, keep in mind Chansey has Natural Cure, but even then, Poison Heal would also be a great option here. Mold Breaker is restricted, so it's impossible to ignore Unaware and Magic Bounce.
I know that this is all theorymonning, but I can't think of any broken strategy that would let me beat this type of team...
Okay so...I know this is going to come across as complaining, whining, or anything you deem unprofessional...
...but I move to make a few bans on this meta.
Look, I know the whole goal of this meta is to essentially have a very chaotic meta with EXTREME applications, making or breaking your team basically by turn 2 in some cases. It's honestly insane how this meta goes from zero to 100 so fast.
But that being said, some things honestly have to be banned, and I don't think I'm alone on this opinion either.
1. Beast boost stacking.
I've run into this a couple of times and, combined with insane abilities like triage or moxie, or something of the like...essentially all a pokemon needs to do is KO the opponent just once and, having 2 pokemon with beast boost on their team, gets them 2 beast boost stat boosts. Intimidate is nerfed to only have one activation...why can beast boost activate twice? And the INSANE part about this is if the pokemon has equal stats. I saw an unfair combo where a guy used double beast boost on his galvantula, having same sp. attack and speed, and the beast boosts spread to both of the stats instead of just one. FOUR STAT BOOSTS!!! Simple fix...limit beast boost to one use, despite having two (or more) beast boost pokemon on the team.
2. Dragonite / Multi-scale.
Look, I like multi-scale just as much as the next guy but...for f*ck sakes, multi-scale on a pokemon like serperior and contrary guarantees chaos, it's obvious. Multi-scale is even easier to achieve if a pokemon with triage is on the team, guaranteeing that somebody like a mega gallade can always have his multi-scale active with a drain punch to get back to 100. Seriously...who though this was okay? If pokemon like Kyurem and all mold breaker pokemon cannot spread their abilities (yet still be usable, mind you), I vote that dragonite's ability in multi-scale be restricted.
3. Contrary...
I am up to HERE with f*cking contrary spamming teams. I can admit, I see the viable usage in contrary and I know why people want to use it...but you already have pokemon like victini (v-create), Kyurem (draco-meteor) and heck, let's face it...even the basic zangoose with a close combat, absolutely destroying teams. Seriously, this ability is beyond broken, spreading to pokemon that should not have it (again, emphasis more on victini's v-create, but I digress).
4. Iron Barbs / Rough Skin stacking.
...need I say more? I know these are more of the tame abilities in comparison to the other things I brought up in this list but...a simple physical hit on a pokemon with both of these abilities loses 24% instantly, losing 32% if the pokemon you just hit is using rocky helmet. Stall is okay, I know it's used and I use it as well...but there's absolutely no reason why it's fair to stack these abilities (along with an insanely broken item).
And finally...I just gotta say it...
5. Items.
I know this meta is not as serious or as toned as an actual event style game (i.e. the actual tournament level rules aren't usually applicable here), but there are some dastardly insane and broken strategies, given the ability sharing. I brought up in point number 4 that Iron Barbs and Rough Skin / Rocky helmet was a very broken combo...now imagine ALL 6 F*CKING POKEMON using rocky helmet. As mundane as that sounds (given the special pokemon who don't apply to this), there are no limits to the amount of items that a pokemon can use.
This, in turn, breaks the meta further because all 6 pokemon (depending on if they have a magic bounce pokemon) could have a focus sash and completely get away with it. All 6 pokemon could have scarf, with magic guard (ala Alakazam) and use insane moves like flare blitz, mind blown, double edge, and get away with absolutely wrecking your team. Hell, depending on if your team even has a way of countering this, all 6 pokemon could use prankster and starf berry / substitute / protect (and given that they would have a harvest pokemon, could restore the berry free of charge, and hell...cheek pouch restoring half the mon's HP upon eating said berry). Sadly, when it comes to the last strat, I know of it purely because my team was unequipped to deal with it. Aerodactyl lead with pressure to destroy your PP, sub and protect stall with starf berry, cheek pouch, harvest to gain it back purely based on rng. My team was 6-0d based on this one mon, alas.
That being said...despite my complaints, I do enjoy this meta. I am aware I am salty but these are legitimate complaints I'm bringing up, where the meta is completely unplayable without at least some fixes. Please, take these into consideration.
Okay so...I know this is going to come across as complaining, whining, or anything you deem unprofessional...
...but I move to make a few bans on this meta.
Look, I know the whole goal of this meta is to essentially have a very chaotic meta with EXTREME applications, making or breaking your team basically by turn 2 in some cases. It's honestly insane how this meta goes from zero to 100 so fast.
But that being said, some things honestly have to be banned, and I don't think I'm alone on this opinion either.
1. Beast boost stacking.
I've run into this a couple of times and, combined with insane abilities like triage or moxie, or something of the like...essentially all a pokemon needs to do is KO the opponent just once and, having 2 pokemon with beast boost on their team, gets them 2 beast boost stat boosts. Intimidate is nerfed to only have one activation...why can beast boost activate twice? And the INSANE part about this is if the pokemon has equal stats. I saw an unfair combo where a guy used double beast boost on his galvantula, having same sp. attack and speed, and the beast boosts spread to both of the stats instead of just one. FOUR STAT BOOSTS!!! Simple fix...limit beast boost to one use, despite having two (or more) beast boost pokemon on the team.
2. Dragonite / Multi-scale.
Look, I like multi-scale just as much as the next guy but...for f*ck sakes, multi-scale on a pokemon like serperior and contrary guarantees chaos, it's obvious. Multi-scale is even easier to achieve if a pokemon with triage is on the team, guaranteeing that somebody like a mega gallade can always have his multi-scale active with a drain punch to get back to 100. Seriously...who though this was okay? If pokemon like Kyurem and all mold breaker pokemon cannot spread their abilities (yet still be usable, mind you), I vote that dragonite's ability in multi-scale be restricted.
3. Contrary...
I am up to HERE with f*cking contrary spamming teams. I can admit, I see the viable usage in contrary and I know why people want to use it...but you already have pokemon like victini (v-create), Kyurem (draco-meteor) and heck, let's face it...even the basic zangoose with a close combat, absolutely destroying teams. Seriously, this ability is beyond broken, spreading to pokemon that should not have it (again, emphasis more on victini's v-create, but I digress).
4. Iron Barbs / Rough Skin stacking.
...need I say more? I know these are more of the tame abilities in comparison to the other things I brought up in this list but...a simple physical hit on a pokemon with both of these abilities loses 24% instantly, losing 32% if the pokemon you just hit is using rocky helmet. Stall is okay, I know it's used and I use it as well...but there's absolutely no reason why it's fair to stack these abilities (along with an insanely broken item).
And finally...I just gotta say it...
5. Items.
I know this meta is not as serious or as toned as an actual event style game (i.e. the actual tournament level rules aren't usually applicable here), but there are some dastardly insane and broken strategies, given the ability sharing. I brought up in point number 4 that Iron Barbs and Rough Skin / Rocky helmet was a very broken combo...now imagine ALL 6 F*CKING POKEMON using rocky helmet. As mundane as that sounds (given the special pokemon who don't apply to this), there are no limits to the amount of items that a pokemon can use.
This, in turn, breaks the meta further because all 6 pokemon (depending on if they have a magic bounce pokemon) could have a focus sash and completely get away with it. All 6 pokemon could have scarf, with magic guard (ala Alakazam) and use insane moves like flare blitz, mind blown, double edge, and get away with absolutely wrecking your team. Hell, depending on if your team even has a way of countering this, all 6 pokemon could use prankster and starf berry / substitute / protect (and given that they would have a harvest pokemon, could restore the berry free of charge, and hell...cheek pouch restoring half the mon's HP upon eating said berry). Sadly, when it comes to the last strat, I know of it purely because my team was unequipped to deal with it. Aerodactyl lead with pressure to destroy your PP, sub and protect stall with starf berry, cheek pouch, harvest to gain it back purely based on rng. My team was 6-0d based on this one mon, alas.
That being said...despite my complaints, I do enjoy this meta. I am aware I am salty but these are legitimate complaints I'm bringing up, where the meta is completely unplayable without at least some fixes. Please, take these into consideration.
I don't know if you saw my previous post, but using this strategy I have laddered to the 9th spot on the ladder. My team did not use Dazzling but instead relied on pure physical bulk with unaware and constant healing to beat Skill Link, Triage, and Aerilate. https://pokepast.es/208e881c9f5e561fI have used this strategy, and it's nowhere near unbeatable. First, you basically have to use all bad mons. Nothing good gets Harvest and nothing good gets Cheek Pouch. Gluttony is also harder to use, and the fact that Harvest can fail really lets you down. Also, any sash or sturdy mon beats it unless you're running Multiscale. Also, if you don't hit your opponent then they can't do anything. And since these strats often require Stored Power or Power Trip to beat Unaware, they usually have weaker moves. They need 1 to 2 moveslots for Sub and an optional Protect (increases the chance of getting Harvests), which gives them only 2 moves to hit you with. And yes, a Kyurem-Black could beat many counters, but with the prevelance of Skill Link this strategy still can lose. And don't forget that you also need Bruxish since Priority destroys this. Also, Moody is largely banned due to being able to give you Evasion.
I don't know if you saw my previous post, but using this strategy I have laddered to the 9th spot on the ladder. My team did not use Dazzling but instead relied on pure physical bulk with unaware and constant healing to beat Skill Link, Triage, and Aerilate. Furthermore, none of the games I played with this team required substantial thought. I seriously think this strat should be banned.
Pangoro and Conkeldurr lose easily to Trevenant without Scrappy. With Scrappy, which is rare, Swalot 1v1s them easily as well. By the time Knock Off is relevant, Kyurem would have so many boosts I don't see how it wouldn't auto win. I have detailed in an earlier post how this team usually beats most teams including priority teams.Without Dazzling or Queenly Majesty I don't know how you didn't die to Priority. However, this is a legitimate strategy that could be looked at. I still do believe that it's not broken due to lack of team slots and counters, as well as the weakness of the mons used.
1. Beast Boost does not stack. Want proof? Here:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-236727 Now, if on the main server this is glitched, please post a replay of it.
2. Multiscale has already been suggested for a ban. However, as of right now I don't believe there are any plans to ban it. There are many counters such as Skill Link, Mold Breaker, and just hitting hard. Or stall.
3. Contrary is not broken in anyway. Unaware beats it, Haze beats it, outspeeding beats it, etc.
4. Run Magic Guard.
5. Items don't share. Mind Blown Magic Guard exists and is powerful, but in no way unbeatable. If that wrecks your team then make a new team. I covered Starf Berry teams in a previous post, and there are counters.
And now for your second post.
6. Struggle stall is necessary. There are far worse struggle teams, and if that guy is actually running Immunity Snorlax with Sitrus Berries then I have to laugh. Or you're mistaken and he's running Gluttony+Aguav. If he switches you have an opportunity to kill him, so that strategy is totally unviable. Besides, that team doesn't even have Mguard, so hazards would wreck it. That is not broken in any way shape or form.
1. Beast boost stacking.
I've run into this a couple of times and, combined with insane abilities like triage or moxie, or something of the like...essentially all a pokemon needs to do is KO the opponent just once and, having 2 pokemon with beast boost on their team, gets them 2 beast boost stat boosts. Intimidate is nerfed to only have one activation...why can beast boost activate twice? And the INSANE part about this is if the pokemon has equal stats. I saw an unfair combo where a guy used double beast boost on his galvantula, having same sp. attack and speed, and the beast boosts spread to both of the stats instead of just one. FOUR STAT BOOSTS!!! Simple fix...limit beast boost to one use, despite having two (or more) beast boost pokemon on the team.
Yeah, Harvest + Pouch is kinda just a thing you have to keep an eye out for. If you're super worried about it, pack knock off. It may not work behind a substitute, but would at least save you in those situations where you're getting hit with Struggle and not making any progress. I'd support a starf berry ban but I think berry spam itself isn't a broken playstyle, just one that catches a lot of people off-guard since it's not as prepared for as more common archetypes. There's also the option of running Hyper Voice + Refrigerate KyuB, or just sound moves in general.
Alternatively, and since you brought up Aerodactyl; why aren't people talking about Aerodactyl more? Conventional wisdom is that Unnerve isn't worth using because it's dead weight against non berry teams, but Aero being able to mega-evolve to lend it's team Tough Claws in the event of a non-berry team is a big utility. It also outruns and gets super effective STAB coverage on M-Bee and Cloyster, meaning it has serious uses against Skill Link teams as well.
My problem came from the fact that the guy had sticky hold, so knock off didn't work. He essentially got away with pretty much anything he wanted to do. I'll admit I should have had hazards, but too many magic bounce pokemon run around to even warrant stealth rocks, toxic, spikes, anything.Yeah, Harvest + Pouch is kinda just a thing you have to keep an eye out for. If you're super worried about it, pack knock off. It may not work behind a substitute, but would at least save you in those situations where you're getting hit with Struggle and not making any progress. I'd support a starf berry ban but I think berry spam itself isn't a broken playstyle, just one that catches a lot of people off-guard since it's not as prepared for as more common archetypes. There's also the option of running Hyper Voice + Refrigerate KyuB, or just sound moves in general.
Alternatively, and since you brought up Aerodactyl; why aren't people talking about Aerodactyl more? Conventional wisdom is that Unnerve isn't worth using because it's dead weight against non berry teams, but Aero being able to mega-evolve to lend it's team Tough Claws in the event of a non-berry team is a big utility. It also outruns and gets super effective STAB coverage on M-Bee and Cloyster, meaning it has serious uses against Skill Link teams as well.
No, two beast boost pokemon were ran on this guy's team, and the chat explicitely stated two beast boost stat increases.You might have the second beast boost mixed up with soul heart/moxie. Its possible for someone to run an ultra beast, a magearna, and a salamence/gyarados/heracross/etc. and get half a shell smash per KO if they beast boost speed. Is this what you're referring to?
So two ultra beasts can give the same effect as one + a magearna? If that's the case, maybe try testing a team with two UBs yourself then get a replay from that, if you don't already have one - especially if that's a bug exclusive to the main server.No, two beast boost pokemon were ran on this guy's team, and the chat explicitely stated two beast boost stat increases.
one unaware cloyster 6 0 this teamAlright so:
Prankster/Cheek Pouch/Dazzling/Harvest with Starf Berry and Substitute/Protect is Moody 2.0, and doesn't even have the drawback of reducing one of your stats per turn. You cannot break the cycle. You cannot use priority outside of Mold Breaker Pangoro to fuck with the substitute timing, and even that doesn't work against Trevenant unless you also have Scrappy.
There are three things that destroy this team: Skill Link, Unaware Stall and anything running sound attacks or taunt. Against anything other than these you turn the game into a pure RNGfest - whether or not Harvest fails a bunch of turns in a row, what stat boosts you get, and whether or not a lucky crit breaks your cycle after you run out of substitute PP. And even if these things do happen, since the overall odds are not that bad in the long run, you still have 5 other pokemon that can do the same exact shit, thanks to the very wide availability of Substitute/Protect. You can also PP stall many offensive teams completely out of PP with this technique. Due to the enforced randomness of the playstyle and the inability for the opponent to have meaningful counterplay, I believe that this playstyle is UNCOMPETITIVE and may require a targeted ban.
Now, Skill Link and stall are both very popular in this meta game, so you might think that this is not banworthy. But do note that I have only mentioned 4 abilities in the header. This represents the 'core requirements' of the playstyle, and there are a variety of Pokemon in the last two slots which can heavily mitigate the issues this team has.
First and foremost is Stamina, which, as we know, is very effective against non-Unaware Skill Link. Running Mudsdale in one of your two nonessential slots gives you a slightly better matchup against Skill Link, to the point where you might not get 6-0'd. It is still by no means a good, or even competitive matchup, but it does let you survive the first hit and get some surprise KOs to even the odds. Full HP/Defense investment on literally every single Pokemon is highly recommended if you intend to run Stamina, and if you're serious about not instantly clicking X vs Skill Link teams, you should be running Klefki as your Prankster Pokemon as it deals effectively with most Skill Link users. Both Thunder Wave/Foul Play and Subtect/Starf Berry are viable options for Klefki.
Next is Mold Breaker. Running a Mold Breaker on the team makes the matchup against Offensive Unaware a lot easier, though it still loses to full PP stall since it is hard to get boosts when your substitute doesn't die, and you don't apply enough pressure on stall to stop them from constantly rotating until you run out of PP. But Cheek Pouch recovery gives you enough healing to rotate around rocks and TSPikes indefinitely as well, which can turn matches into contests of patience.
Next up is Magic Bounce. This is occasionally useful against offense, and very good against the very rare Taunts in the meta, but it also turns stall into contests of who gets bored first, as most Stall teams cannot do 33% of your health in a direct attack per turn, allowing you to rotate around indefinitely with Cheek Pouch recovery. About as stupid as it sounds.
A gimmick to deal with sound attacks like Scrappy Boomburst is Soundproof. It also deals with Taunts, which is very useful. Would not recommend using as neither sound attacks nor Taunts are particularly common in a meta filled with Magic Bounce and Contrary boosting, but it's here.
Finally we have Pressure, which is just stupid IMO, but effective. Remember Vincune, which Sub/Protect stalls teams very effectively using Pressure to run opponents out of attacks that can damage it? Now imagine 6 of them with enough recovery to stall out the full 32 turns of substitute and protect. Considering that I've stalled Contrary Offense out of Kyurem and Victini PP without pressure, it can get really silly against offensive teams.
I have written this with the intent of convincing the Shared Power tier leaders that this is both a viable and an uncompetitive playstyle, and I believe that there should be a ban targeted at the playstyle, either banning Starf Berry or getting rid of Dazzling/Queenly Majesty which enable this playstyle to exist.
Some replays to demonstrate how the team works and how to deal with teams lacking Dazzling:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699356182 - My first battle against one of these teams, which inspired me to build a foolproof version. Quick Attack and Extremespeed come in clutch here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699370565 - 107 turn battle where I slowly but surely stall out a Contrary Pinsir and the one substitute Victini in existence.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699376186 - Slightly higher on the ladder, this time up against a Toxic Boost/Guts team.
I laddered to number 9 on the ladder with this strategy and beat many unaware cloysters. Physdef Klefki can eat several hits through berry recovery and 2hko cloyster. Kyub lives one rock blast from full and can kill back through sturdy. Prankster Thunder Wave or Destiny Bond can cripple or remove it.one unaware cloyster 6 0 this team
As has been pointed out a few times, Gale Wings gets checked before Aerilate so it doesn’t recognize Normal moves as Flying. This is intentional/accurate to the cart.Found an issue with gale wings + aerilate. It works for pinsir, but won’t work for dragonite or aerodactyl. It applies the type effectiveness correctly (super effective against fighting types for example) however it doesn’t snag the priority it should from gale wings
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699792010
Found an issue with gale wings + aerilate. It works for pinsir, but won’t work for dragonite or aerodactyl. It applies the type effectiveness correctly (super effective against fighting types for example) however it doesn’t snag the priority it should from gale wings
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-699792010