Yes, but how exactly is sharing Purifying Salt uncompetitive/unhealthy? Misty Surge already exists for preventing status and it is borderline unviable, Bulletproof already exists for stopping Shadow Ball, Natural Cure, as you said, already exists for stopping Poison, and the only fast offensive Ghost Pokemon are Flutter Mane and Dragapult (maybe Gira-O but it isn’t a sweeper).
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SP Shared Power
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
Well I feel that a ghost resistance might be needed especially with a certain mon named Flutter Mane who can absolutely destroy teams with shadow ball adapt tera ghost which is pretty annoying, as well some immunity status isn't broken though because as you had said above natural cure.
As somebody who plays merciless toxic spam, please do not unban that ability.
On a more serious note, having a blanket immunity to status would be very strong, not just on stall but also on balance. Being able to avoid t-wave's would completely negate some speed control, and keeping physical attackers safe from burn would also be useful. If it were just the status immunity, then the ability wouldn't always provide value, but introducing a ghost resistance means you will be getting value in some form or another in nearly every game, which is quite strong. That, on top of completely eradicating a playstyle (merciless spam) makes me think that Purifying Salt is too strong, and would centralize gameplay too much
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Stall already has Natural Cure, most stall teams can't even use Burns that effectively in the first place because of Guts and Heatran, and I have not seen Thunder Wave used at all except on Galvantula and Dragapult.
Furthermore, balance does not exist in this tier.
You don't see anyone running Immunity in Shared Power just to matchup fish and counter Merciless teams.
As a first action as a TL here, welcome InkyDarkBird to the council! Expect some updates on the meta resources and maybe something else in the coming days.
Got number 1 on the ladder switching between a few teams
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This team focuses setting up to become unkillable. Of the three teams I've been using, it is the best at navigating bad matchups. I don't think there is a single playstyle that this team can't overcome with proper play due to the amount of variance control. It beats common physical archetypes hard, even if they have tools like long reach to ignore fluffy.
Okidogi provides guard dog, to prevent phasing. Also makes life hard for any team that happens to be running intimidate. Okidogi itself should not be underestimated either, as it can easily bulk up and win. It can avoid things such as sash or endure by using toxic first. Knock off and toxic are also good in other matchups where okidogi can't win. Tera dark boosts knock off and protects against psychic moves, though okidogi has a tendency to somehow live psychic attacks raw.
Houndstone gives fluffy and is usually the lead. Tricking scarf is usually a safe bet, as it disrupts most leads and earns a free switch and subsequent ability activation, and the punishment for this being predicted is usually very low. Sometimes will-o-wisp or poltergeist first is also useful. Do not trick golurk a scarf, even if they don't predict and poltergeist immediately, scarfed golurk is a threat to this team. Against certain bulkier teams, it is also important not the trick immediately so that the scarf can be given to something else later. Tera ghost boosts ghost moves, but I've never tera'd houndstone.
Heatran is obviously here for flash fire to patch up fluffy's downsides. Many of the team's tera types are bolstered heavily by the fact they are fire immune. Heatran is trained in a way such that it can be a problem for specially oriented teams. Magma storm trapping and protecting is useful into a lot of matchups. Heatran can also iron defense and body press win, capable of leveraging its special bulk to do this even versus teams with mixed options. Tera grass to resist water, particularly ogerpon-wellspring since it ignores fluffy.
Hisuian goodra provides shell armor to prevent crits, enabling setups to go smoothly. Also messes with merciless or super luck teams. There are a lot of games where houndstone and goodra are all you need to win; trick scarf on the lead with houndstone, then use the free turn to switch into goodra and max defense with acid armor before the other team gets enough abilities activated to stop you. Knock off is useful for item removal and allows goodra to deal with ghost types. Knock off obviously does not kill the ghost in one or even two hits usually, but since goodra cannot be crit, its rare for the enemy to even outdamage leftovers when fully set up. Dragon tail is for phasing, which is especially useful when dealing with anger shell teams. Knock off and dragon tail remain useful even when goodra can't win. Tera ghost is for fighting immunity, which is useful for sacred sword or focus blasts.
Giratina origin provides levitate, which is mostly a convenience but useful for the many ground weak team members. Giratina origin is really here to patch up special offense and corrosion matchups. Calm mind lets it handle special damage and become more threatening. Rest lets it clear toxic, which otherwise the entire team loses to. Tera steel is useful defensively all around, especially since giratina is immune to ground and fire and initially immune to fighting. The teams giratina is meant to handle have far less fighting coverage.
Dragon arceus usually does not have to come out, because usually the rest of the team has it handled. I believe this pokemon is severely underrated in shared power. The natural bulk and speed are too useful. Dragon arceus was chosen as it is the only legal arceus not weak to stealth rock. Arceus is another stop against special attacks, setting up calm minds, and is the only other team member that can handle corrosion toxic with taunt, though toxic chain can still get it. Arceus wins as soon as fairy types are gone. There are other move options, such as stored power and cosmic power over calm mind (if using stored power), but these options are less consistent I've found. The original version of the team had a galarian moltres providing berserk, which made cosmic power much more tenable. Berserk arceus is absolutely more dangerous, since it can fast recover and get more berserk boosts while cosmic powering, but this version of the team is weak to corrosion toxic and some opposing setup teams, since this arceus had both judgement and stored power and lacked taunt. Tera steel for similar reasons to giratina.
This team requires careful play against corrosion toxic teams, but luckily does not have to worry about merciless. There are also some physical offense teams that can overwhelm the team if they get their abilities activated before anything is iron defensed or bulked up. Teams that can outspeed arceus can also provide some issues if they have the right tools or enough special offense.
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This is a hyper offense sun team focused on killing everything with flutter mane. The games almost always end with flutter mane winning.
Flutter mane is the focus of the team. It usually just clicks moonblast or shadow ball. Substitute is in case of a rare situation where sucker punch of thunder clap is involved or to catch teras if you have enough health. Taunt is for disrupting some strategies, most notably sticky web. I supposed either of these options could be switched out for something else, but flutter mane doesn't really need to do anything except click moon blast and shadow ball. Tera fairy to make moonblast stronger. I've thought about tera ghost some. However, its usually better to retain the adaptability boost on both stabs than to make one stronger.
Hisuian braviary provides sheer force. I picked it in favor of landorus incarnate for defog, since this team can lose immediately in some cases if sticky webs are up. When this slot was landorus, it sometimes did some other stuff, but now it mostly just defogs. Tera ghost to spin block, and to ditch the flying type to benefit from psychic terrain.
Charizard provides solar power. Sometimes it is better if charizard comes out later to delay the solar power chip, but the games usually aren't long enough such that this really matters. Charizard has dragon dance to boost speed, but usually dies on the turn it dances. Tera ground to boost scorching sands, and to ditch the flying type to benefit from psychic terrain.
Provides drought. Has a mental herb so it can consistently set up stealth rocks so flutter mane doesn't need to worry about sashes. Groudon doesn't usually do much, since teams are usually either faster or immune to both of its attacks. Roar is useful to make sure nothing can set up on groudon. Tera ghost to spin block.
Provides psychic terrain. Encore and healing wish can also be useful. Tera ghost to spin block.
Provides adaptability. Has eject button to activate abilities faster. If the eject button is activated on something weak, it can be used defensively. Haze stops set up. Flip turn helps pivot. Tera water to live ice moves, particularly from hisuian lilligant.
This team has to keep sticky webs off or it probably loses. Fairly precarious in most situations like most hyper offenses are but usually pulls through. If a team had something faster the proto boosted flutter mane, the team would likely struggle, but I haven't encountered that except for opposing flutter mane. Its usually a good idea to just switch flutter mane out after getting a kill to catch teras or any other tricks, especially if sun ends.
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This team is mostly standard physical offense. The theory is that lokix, with its strong priority, is useful as a receiver of abilities even if it cannot share tinted lens.
Lokix uses its strong priority and tinted lens to clean up games if the rest of the team cannot handle it. Its moveset is standard. Tera dark to boost sucker punch and knock off.
Provides compound eyes and sets up sticky webs. Volt switch for pivoting, sucker punch for priority, thunder wave for paralysis. Tera dark to boost sucker punch, but I never use this. Might be good if moxie is activated and galvantula gets a kill. Could be switched to tera ghost.
Only really non-standard pick on the team. Provides moxie. Picked this over quaquaval for stealth rock. Has an expected moveset. With scarf and all abilities, can be threatening on occasion. Tera steel is just a generally useful defensive tera, I think this might be better as tera water to resist aqua jet though. Steel might be good into comfey teams though, which the team can hard lose to.
Provides hustle. If a game ends before lokix comes out, its probably because lilligant won. Victory dance speed boosts are sometimes necessary to win. Leaf blade over petal blizzard since the team has long reach. Tera steel is generally useful defensively.
Provides adaptability. Aqua jet is useful priority. Swords dance can make this a threat. Tera water to boost water moves, but I never use this.
Provides long reach. Haze stops setup, u-turn for pivoting. Shadow sneak for priority, and poltergeist for dealing damage if the opponent is slower. Decidueye is also used for spinblocking. Tera ghost to boost ghost damage.
This team usually wins easily except in a few select matchups that are very difficult. Any team with psychic terrain or comfey teams require perfectly executed lilligant setup or an available tera steel to beat, respectively. Could be better to handle the fluffy matchup with more non-contact moves instead of long reach and replace it with tough claws, which would allow krookodile to be replaced with quaquaval. This team is the most recent of the three and might not be perfectly refined and its possible there's a horrible match up that I did not encounter.
The arceus team is probably the safest of these three team. Very difficult to make a game losing mistake with that team. I'm unsure if it is the best though. I think the VR is definitely underestimating arceus dragon, okidogi, krookodile, and especially lokix
-----This team focuses setting up to become unkillable. Of the three teams I've been using, it is the best at navigating bad matchups. I don't think there is a single playstyle that this team can't overcome with proper play due to the amount of variance control. It beats common physical archetypes hard, even if they have tools like long reach to ignore fluffy.
Okidogi provides guard dog, to prevent phasing. Also makes life hard for any team that happens to be running intimidate. Okidogi itself should not be underestimated either, as it can easily bulk up and win. It can avoid things such as sash or endure by using toxic first. Knock off and toxic are also good in other matchups where okidogi can't win. Tera dark boosts knock off and protects against psychic moves, though okidogi has a tendency to somehow live psychic attacks raw.Houndstone gives fluffy and is usually the lead. Tricking scarf is usually a safe bet, as it disrupts most leads and earns a free switch and subsequent ability activation, and the punishment for this being predicted is usually very low. Sometimes will-o-wisp or poltergeist first is also useful. Do not trick golurk a scarf, even if they don't predict and poltergeist immediately, scarfed golurk is a threat to this team. Against certain bulkier teams, it is also important not the trick immediately so that the scarf can be given to something else later. Tera ghost boosts ghost moves, but I've never tera'd houndstone.Heatran is obviously here for flash fire to patch up fluffy's downsides. Many of the team's tera types are bolstered heavily by the fact they are fire immune. Heatran is trained in a way such that it can be a problem for specially oriented teams. Magma storm trapping and protecting is useful into a lot of matchups. Heatran can also iron defense and body press win, capable of leveraging its special bulk to do this even versus teams with mixed options. Tera grass to resist water, particularly ogerpon-wellspring since it ignores fluffy.Hisuian goodra provides shell armor to prevent crits, enabling setups to go smoothly. Also messes with merciless or super luck teams. There are a lot of games where houndstone and goodra are all you need to win; trick scarf on the lead with houndstone, then use the free turn to switch into goodra and max defense with acid armor before the other team gets enough abilities activated to stop you. Knock off is useful for item removal and allows goodra to deal with ghost types. Knock off obviously does not kill the ghost in one or even two hits usually, but since goodra cannot be crit, its rare for the enemy to even outdamage leftovers when fully set up. Dragon tail is for phasing, which is especially useful when dealing with anger shell teams. Knock off and dragon tail remain useful even when goodra can't win. Tera ghost is for fighting immunity, which is useful for sacred sword or focus blasts.Giratina origin provides levitate, which is mostly a convenience but useful for the many ground weak team members. Giratina origin is really here to patch up special offense and corrosion matchups. Calm mind lets it handle special damage and become more threatening. Rest lets it clear toxic, which otherwise the entire team loses to. Tera steel is useful defensively all around, especially since giratina is immune to ground and fire and initially immune to fighting. The teams giratina is meant to handle have far less fighting coverage.Dragon arceus usually does not have to come out, because usually the rest of the team has it handled. I believe this pokemon is severely underrated in shared power. The natural bulk and speed are too useful. Dragon arceus was chosen as it is the only legal arceus not weak to stealth rock. Arceus is another stop against special attacks, setting up calm minds, and is the only other team member that can handle corrosion toxic with taunt, though toxic chain can still get it. Arceus wins as soon as fairy types are gone. There are other move options, such as stored power and cosmic power over calm mind (if using stored power), but these options are less consistent I've found. The original version of the team had a galarian moltres providing berserk, which made cosmic power much more tenable. Berserk arceus is absolutely more dangerous, since it can fast recover and get more berserk boosts while cosmic powering, but this version of the team is weak to corrosion toxic and some opposing setup teams, since this arceus had both judgement and stored power and lacked taunt. Tera steel for similar reasons to giratina.-----This is a hyper offense sun team focused on killing everything with flutter mane. The games almost always end with flutter mane winning.
Flutter mane is the focus of the team. It usually just clicks moonblast or shadow ball. Substitute is in case of a rare situation where sucker punch of thunder clap is involved or to catch teras if you have enough health. Taunt is for disrupting some strategies, most notably sticky web. I supposed either of these options could be switched out for something else, but flutter mane doesn't really need to do anything except click moon blast and shadow ball. Tera fairy to make moonblast stronger. I've thought about tera ghost some. However, its usually better to retain the adaptability boost on both stabs than to make one stronger.Hisuian braviary provides sheer force. I picked it in favor of landorus incarnate for defog, since this team can lose immediately in some cases if sticky webs are up. When this slot was landorus, it sometimes did some other stuff, but now it mostly just defogs. Tera ghost to spin block, and to ditch the flying type to benefit from psychic terrain.Charizard provides solar power. Sometimes it is better if charizard comes out later to delay the solar power chip, but the games usually aren't long enough such that this really matters. Charizard has dragon dance to boost speed, but usually dies on the turn it dances. Tera ground to boost scorching sands, and to ditch the flying type to benefit from psychic terrain.Provides drought. Has a mental herb so it can consistently set up stealth rocks so flutter mane doesn't need to worry about sashes. Groudon doesn't usually do much, since teams are usually either faster or immune to both of its attacks. Roar is useful to make sure nothing can set up on groudon. Tera ghost to spin block.Provides psychic terrain. Encore and healing wish can also be useful. Tera ghost to spin block.Provides adaptability. Has eject button to activate abilities faster. If the eject button is activated on something weak, it can be used defensively. Haze stops set up. Flip turn helps pivot. Tera water to live ice moves, particularly from hisuian lilligant.-----This team is mostly standard physical offense. The theory is that lokix, with its strong priority, is useful as a receiver of abilities even if it cannot share tinted lens.
Lokix uses its strong priority and tinted lens to clean up games if the rest of the team cannot handle it. Its moveset is standard. Tera dark to boost sucker punch and knock off.Provides compound eyes and sets up sticky webs. Volt switch for pivoting, sucker punch for priority, thunder wave for paralysis. Tera dark to boost sucker punch, but I never use this. Might be good if moxie is activated and galvantula gets a kill. Could be switched to tera ghost.Only really non-standard pick on the team. Provides moxie. Picked this over quaquaval for stealth rock. Has an expected moveset. With scarf and all abilities, can be threatening on occasion. Tera steel is just a generally useful defensive tera, I think this might be better as tera water to resist aqua jet though. Steel might be good into comfey teams though, which the team can hard lose to.Provides hustle. If a game ends before lokix comes out, its probably because lilligant won. Victory dance speed boosts are sometimes necessary to win. Leaf blade over petal blizzard since the team has long reach. Tera steel is generally useful defensively.Provides adaptability. Aqua jet is useful priority. Swords dance can make this a threat. Tera water to boost water moves, but I never use this. Provides long reach. Haze stops setup, u-turn for pivoting. Shadow sneak for priority, and poltergeist for dealing damage if the opponent is slower. Decidueye is also used for spinblocking. Tera ghost to boost ghost damage.The arceus team is probably the safest of these three team. Very difficult to make a game losing mistake with that team. I'm unsure if it is the best though. I think the VR is definitely underestimating arceus dragon, okidogi, krookodile, and especially lokix
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VR update! Some placements may be a bit rough, but hopefully the rest of the community can help doing meta development with the lesser used options in the tier, with this being basically a revamp as a good portion of the metagame has changed since then.
The whole slate can be seen here.
From what is noticeable from a glance, with the restriction on Quark Drive and Protosynthesis, several options that were ran mainly for such ability have fallen drastically in viability, overall also showing a decline on weather teams. Additionally the meta appears to adapt to Harvest teams, as well as developing several kinds of offense based around an ability or two (let alone stacking of similar/compatible ones). What do you all think of the changes so far?
The whole slate can be seen here.
These two happened months ago and are merely listed as a technicality as part of the update.
Spectrier: A+ -> Banned
Sneasler: A -> Banned
Now, onto usable VR changes:
To A:
Heatran
Trevenant
Quaquaval
Iron Crown
To A-:
Ceruledge
Drapagult
To B+:
Galvantula
Regidrago
Basculegion-M
Indeedee-M
To B:
Decidueye-Hisui
Glimmora
Greedent
Kleavor
Muk-Alola
Klawf
Okidogi
Latios
Armarouge
Salazzle
To B-:
Clawitzer
Gallade
Haxorus
Hippowdon
Hydrapple
Munkidori
Salamence
Dondozo
Latias
Lokix
Archaludon
Baxcalibur
Hydreigon
To C+:
Garganacl
Moltres-Galar
Ursaluna
Gastrodon
Dialga-O
Snorlax
Hariyama
Jirachi
To C:
Gholdengo
Pecharunt
Kommo-o
Arcanine-Hisui
Staraptor
Glastrier
Ariados
Talonflame
To C-:
Bronzong
Ditto
Charizard
Krookodile
Spectrier: A+ -> BannedSneasler: A -> BannedNow, onto usable VR changes:
To A:
HeatranTrevenantQuaquavalIron CrownTo A-:
CeruledgeDrapagultTo B+:
GalvantulaRegidragoBasculegion-MIndeedee-MTo B:
Decidueye-HisuiGlimmoraGreedentKleavorMuk-AlolaKlawfOkidogiLatiosArmarougeSalazzleTo B-:
ClawitzerGalladeHaxorusHippowdonHydrappleMunkidoriSalamenceDondozoLatiasLokixArchaludonBaxcaliburHydreigonTo C+:
GarganaclMoltres-GalarUrsalunaGastrodonDialga-OSnorlaxHariyamaJirachiTo C:
GholdengoPecharuntKommo-oArcanine-HisuiStaraptorGlastrierAriadosTalonflameTo C-:
BronzongDittoCharizardKrookodileTo A-:
Wo-Chien
To B+:
Perrserker
Toxapex
Comfey
Maushold
To B:
Groudon
Metagross
Ogerpon-W
Bombirdier
Decidueye
Terapagos
Flamigo
Iron Boulder
Samurott-Hisui
Solgaleo
To B-:
Chansey
Corviknight
Palkia-O
Annihilape
Clodsire
Cloyster
Cinderace
Espathra
Iron Bundle
Manaphy
Toxicroak
Tyranitar
To C+
Iron Valiant
Chesnaught
Urshifu-RS
Arceus-Dragon
Breloom
Farigiraf
Roaring Moon
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze
To C:
Meowscarada
Appletun
Dachsbun
Honchkrow
Inteleon
Kilowattrel
Ogerpon
Palkia
Ninetales-Alola
Raichu-Alola
Skeledirge
Volcanion
Gliscor
Milotic
Shiftry
Tinkaton
To C-:
Toxtricity
Carbink
Giratina
Volcarona
To UR:
Necrozma
Basculin
Braviary-Hisui
Cetitan
Golem-Alola
Gouging Fire
Iron Hands
Iron Moth
Pawmot
Lucario
Luxray
Lycanroc-Midday
Ninetales
Alcremie
Azumarill
Deoxys-S
Garchomp
Golduck
Infernape
Porygon2
Rhyperior
Tauros
Vivillon
Zapdos-Galar
Wo-ChienTo B+:
PerrserkerToxapexComfeyMausholdTo B:
GroudonMetagrossOgerpon-WBombirdierDecidueyeTerapagosFlamigoIron BoulderSamurott-HisuiSolgaleoTo B-:
ChanseyCorviknightPalkia-OAnnihilapeClodsireCloysterCinderaceEspathraIron BundleManaphyToxicroakTyranitarTo C+
Iron ValiantChesnaughtUrshifu-RSArceus-DragonBreloomFarigirafRoaring MoonTauros-Paldea-BlazeTo C:
MeowscaradaAppletunDachsbunHonchkrowInteleonKilowattrelOgerponPalkiaNinetales-AlolaRaichu-AlolaSkeledirgeVolcanionGliscorMiloticShiftryTinkatonTo C-:
ToxtricityCarbinkGiratinaVolcaronaTo UR:
NecrozmaBasculinBraviary-HisuiCetitanGolem-AlolaGouging FireIron HandsIron MothPawmotLucarioLuxrayLycanroc-MiddayNinetalesAlcremieAzumarillDeoxys-SGarchompGolduckInfernapePorygon2RhyperiorTaurosVivillonZapdos-GalarFrom what is noticeable from a glance, with the restriction on Quark Drive and Protosynthesis, several options that were ran mainly for such ability have fallen drastically in viability, overall also showing a decline on weather teams. Additionally the meta appears to adapt to Harvest teams, as well as developing several kinds of offense based around an ability or two (let alone stacking of similar/compatible ones). What do you all think of the changes so far?
Where is flutter mane btw?VR update! Some placements may be a bit rough, but hopefully the rest of the community can help doing meta development with the lesser used options in the tier, with this being basically a revamp as a good portion of the metagame has changed since then.
The whole slate can be seen here.
These two happened months ago and are merely listed as a technicality as part of the update.
Now, onto usable VR changes:
To A:
To A-:
To B+:
To B:
To B-:
To C+:
To C:
To C-:
To A-:
To B+:
To B:
To B-:
To C+
To C:
To C-:
To UR:
From what is noticeable from a glance, with the restriction on Quark Drive and Protosynthesis, several options that were ran mainly for such ability have fallen drastically in viability, overall also showing a decline on weather teams. Additionally the meta appears to adapt to Harvest teams, as well as developing several kinds of offense based around an ability or two (let alone stacking of similar/compatible ones). What do you all think of the changes so far?
Still at A
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2295216433 i've been using a berry stall team (I don't have a high rating so take this with a grain of salt) but some part of this (probably either sturdy or ripen imo) needs to be banned/restricted. Even though sturdy doesn't pass, the fact that it enables naclstack to hardwall certain archetypes is kind of broken. I don't think this will ever be a centralizing meta strategy due to being so matchup fishy, but it's very annoying and almost impossible to beat with some teams. (edit: for clarification, this really only beats most hustle offense and toxic orb teams. Merciless usually runs corrosion so even tera poison won't save you. pretty much any multi hit invalidates naclstack.)
This Arceus team by Ball inspired me to try out some different builds. Small novel incoming but the TLDR is that Arceus balance is a distinct new archetype of teams that are consistent, flexible, and easy to build. Teams are near the end.
This meta is not very friendly to balance. It's clearly the hardest archetype to build. Offense is so strong that checking threats is not reasonable without three or four defensive team members. Like, Sniper Adaptability Urshifu is just okay because it's kind of weak and slow. That's a ridiculous power level at play. As a result, bulky teams are loaded for bear. Balance gets it both ways: it has to weather a massive offensive storm in three or four slots, and crack these fortress-like defensive teams with the remainder. When someone does manage to build a successful balance team, the result is probably not flexible or replicable. What I mean by replicable is that someone else can take the core concept and build out a different team that is also successful. Balance usually relies on a couple of carefully chosen immunity abilities to paper over defensive holes. As a result, the team composition is difficult to change. That's not to say they are bad teams! But if you set out to build balance, you will likely build a team very similar to the narrow set of good balance teams.
Thanks to Arceus's stallbreaking proficiency, Arceus balance is much easier to build. Consider this set that Ball posted:
Arceus-Dragon @ Draco Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Taunt
- Recover
Taunt from something this fast is going to shut down every common stall mon. That's the real summary of this post. Arceus is the only mon I know of that can run Taunt, recovery, and setup. Arceus is a self-sufficent breaker that needs little support from the rest of the team. That independence grants lots of freedom towards handling non-stall matchups. Additionally, Arceus's natural bulk puts in work against offense, too, differentiating itself from other breakers. A balance team can now load up on defensive mons, priority, alternative wincons, or anything else it needs.
The only problem is that Arceus is locked into one attack. Mono dragon coverage is tough because I think every good team should have a Tera Fairy somewhere. Dragon's Maw teams get such a big boost on high BST mons with high BP moves. Trying to wall them is unreasonable and leaves too many other holes. Ball's team is very good and compensates for this problem with several Steels and Okidogi. In trying to build around Arceus, though, I ended up with a pretty similar team, to the point where I felt that I wasn't doing anything original. So I turned to this set:
Arceus-Dragon @ Draco Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Steel/Flying/Dark/Fairy/Fighting... Rock? Normal? Bug?
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Tera Blast
- Taunt
- Recover
Tera Blast with a no-immunities Tera type lets Arceus stay on the field against anything. Fighting and Normal are included here because of Scrappy. At +6, resistances don't matter to Arceus that much, so mono coverage can still break. No regular stall mons can boost up alongside Arceus, either, because of Taunt. Arceus can even use Normal Tera Blast to break through would-be resistances before popping Tera. That strategy is especially good because it's hard to tell which Tera type Arceus will use, and therefore difficult to preserve the right resistances. Unaware is certainly a problem, but Taunt can beat Clodsire and Dondozo, and Clefable is hardly ever seen. I have found this set to be good across several different Tera types, each with different strengths and weaknesses.
There are counters, of course. Dragon Tail is the best. It cannot be taunted and is easy to fit on several prominent bulky Pokemon. Arceus has good natural bulk but can still get run over if setup sweepers get on the field first. Garganacl and Toxic Chain can put Arceus on a timer with non-tauntable moves. Toxic Chain in particular is tough because the whole team can poison Arceus. I hope that cheesesir posts about what goes into making a good Toxic Chain team someday.
Here are a few teams that I used to reach number 1. I'm sure you can make a killer offense or stall around Arceus, but I tried to focus on balance. The Fighting one is the best, and Flying is pretty good, too. I think Dark is good but I haven't polished it that much.
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Tera Flying Arceus lets us do a few funky things. Firstly, both Dragon and Flying pair well with Thick Fat Mamoswine. I've wanted to use Thick Fat with Fluffy for a while and finally have a good reason. Arceus's breaking lets us use Agility instead of Roar or Rest on Zamazenta. I love Agility Zama and take any opportunity to run it; it steals tons of games versus offense. Wo-Chien can drop Taunt, too, making room for... idk which move I would drop, but I'd drop one of them. Some of Ting-Lu's EV's are missing, but this post is super long at this point and I'm not making another paste. There are a few matchups against various special spams that are winnable, but you have to significantly outplay and get Arceus setup early.
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The best of the teams by a good margin. Scrappy Fighting Tera Blast is a great move, especially against common Heatran/Houndstone/Giratina cores. Arceus-Fire is the base form since the rest of the team has a big Fairy weakness. Arceus is nice here to mitigate Fluffy's Fire weakness, although either Dragon or Fire would do fine. Giratina has a defensive set that clears rocks off for Arceus's entry. Arceus can struggle against Toxic Spikes, so Levitate is helpful. Ting-Lu is here mostly to cancel out opposing Vessel of Ruin. You'll have many routes to play, and you don't necessarily have to win the game with Arceus like the Flying team does. I think this is the best example of balance here: Giratina and Ting-Lu are very defensive, while Ursaluna and Arceus have offensive sets. Zamazenta and Houndstone are somewhere in the middle.
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Dark is great neutral coverage, as neutral karma showed with that Tera Blast Dark Dragonite team. Dragon into Dark leaves Arceus with a big Fairy weakness, so Heatran is a good pairing. From there, I added Houndstone as a natural partner. I wanted to go a little more offensive with this one, so I didn't want Ting-Lu. Offensive Ho-oh is a funky alternative with special bulk. Groudon and Cresselia complete a sun core. This team kind of has a Zamazenta problem, but holding off on Tera on Arceus should do the job alongside Fluffy.
And there are many other possibilities left to explore. I hope that you have as much fun being creative with Arceus as I have.
Hey Bobsican I think Chansey should be bit higher up in the tier as it can be a solid tool with natural cure like Blissey but it is technically more bulky with evioliteViability Rankings:
A+
A
Basculegion-F
Deoxys
Landorus
Lycanroc-Dusk
A-
Blissey
Porygon-Z
Zangoose
B+
Lycanroc-Midnight
B
Drifblim
Excadrill
Golurk
Pelipper
Sylveon
B-
Polteageist
Muk
Raging Bolt
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
Urshifu-Single-Strike
I'm afraid that's just dex info, VR change nominations should explain how such differences fit better in the current metagame to overall have more of a meta impact or usage potential. Chansey is limited to hard stall teams out of its sheer passivity and vulnerability to entry hazards without heavy support (and hard-stall usually is ranked low as it's quite limited and sometimes matchup-fishy), while Blissey can afford Heavy-Duty Boots to retain more longevity in general matchups for balance teams.
Hey I dunno if this has been talked about before now but I’ve been running a team that has been doing at least alright.
Urshifu-RS and Meowscarada are the main attackers with the following donors
Ariados (Sniper)
Porygon-Z/Crawdaunt (Adaptability)
Lokix (Tinted Lens)
Lycanroc-Dusk (Tough Claws)
It’s not stopped by Defense boosts or Intimidate, but can be restricted if priority is needed. There’s potential for other additions but this feels very silly and I want to share it if this hasn’t been discussed before.
Urshifu-RS and Meowscarada are the main attackers with the following donors
Ariados (Sniper)
Porygon-Z/Crawdaunt (Adaptability)
Lokix (Tinted Lens)
Lycanroc-Dusk (Tough Claws)
It’s not stopped by Defense boosts or Intimidate, but can be restricted if priority is needed. There’s potential for other additions but this feels very silly and I want to share it if this hasn’t been discussed before.
Tinted Lens is restricted to Lokix. Most teams that use lokix build around that fact it is a revenge killer. First Impression being very strong with adapt and tough claws however fluffy and a resist check it decently well. Not to mention entry hazards force lokix into boots knowing this it can be played around with resists and faster priority mons that can live the hit and outspeed sucker with their own priority. Also it has a fairly poor typing defensively and if knocked off dies to rocks as it comes in and out of battle. Lokix relies heavily on coming in on injured enemies. Also dies to a fairly common comfey suggest a defensive tera of poison for that reason. Lokix might be replaceable here.
Meowscarada does well into fluffy teams due to not making contact with flower trick but it lacks setup to break walls like wo chien, heatran, and ho oh. It is also frail and often knocked out if it does not kill often the case vs zama. Protean is a above average ability but wasted for what you are trying to due with flower trick and surging strikes. Protean can also be used defensively with toxic spikes, preventing mach punch, comfey, and zama problems.
Urshifu-RS loses a lot of threat due to fluffy and water types are extremely common on teams with crawdaunt, basc, and quack to name a few. Water absorb is also fairly common. Also weak to priority and lacking somewhat in the speed department. I have found Urshifu with wicked blow to be more consistent giving it better neutral coverage hitting dragons and common waters. Also hitting extremely common ghost types like giratina, basculegion, and houndstone.
Long reach IMO is better than tough claws currently with how common fluffy is and the need to not make contact benefiting Urshifu and lokix. Moxie can make this team spiral out of control. Taunt is highly effective as well for both Urshifu and Meow stopping potential will-o and toxic. As well as being extremely good against stall.
Meowscarada does well into fluffy teams due to not making contact with flower trick but it lacks setup to break walls like wo chien, heatran, and ho oh. It is also frail and often knocked out if it does not kill often the case vs zama. Protean is a above average ability but wasted for what you are trying to due with flower trick and surging strikes. Protean can also be used defensively with toxic spikes, preventing mach punch, comfey, and zama problems.
Urshifu-RS loses a lot of threat due to fluffy and water types are extremely common on teams with crawdaunt, basc, and quack to name a few. Water absorb is also fairly common. Also weak to priority and lacking somewhat in the speed department. I have found Urshifu with wicked blow to be more consistent giving it better neutral coverage hitting dragons and common waters. Also hitting extremely common ghost types like giratina, basculegion, and houndstone.
Long reach IMO is better than tough claws currently with how common fluffy is and the need to not make contact benefiting Urshifu and lokix. Moxie can make this team spiral out of control. Taunt is highly effective as well for both Urshifu and Meow stopping potential will-o and toxic. As well as being extremely good against stall.
Just to add to this a bit. Purifying Salt is much stronger than natural cure by eliminating the need to switch. Toxic is often used to break heavy defensive mons like Zamazenta or putting a timer on super offensive threats. Removing an out for a lot teams hurts. Burn is not as reliable but also a lot of teams rely on fire resistances paired with fluffy and not just flash fire/well baked. At least with natural cure status can still damage a mon well it has it.
Immunity mons just do not offer enough to a team. The best being snorlax as a special wall but it has other abilities like thick fat/gluttony that offer more. Zangoose would much rather be poisoned as it is not defensive and can make use of toxic boost. Gligar is ok physical wall with eviolite and hazards but has no reliable recovery to be used on stall teams.
Para is underused due to all the priority spam and speed boosting abilities like anger shell/weak armor. I still think it has value though. Being able to "steal" a turn is massive deal. With how the meta plays para is more like a form of evasion IMO.
On top of the status prevention gaining a ghost resistance is a massive deal in this meta. Poltergeist/Shadow sneak is very common from giratina, houndstone, and Ceruledge. Not to mention all the shadow balls being thrown around by others like basculegion, porygon, dragapult, and giratina again.
Again, we have Immunity already and I haven't seen a viable Immunity Zamazenta team yet.
Furthermore, I don't think any HO team would be running Garganacl just for the niche matchup of Toxic spam when running Houndstone or another sweeper/boosting ability is far more effective for countering other teams.
Again, barely any Pokemon even want to run Wisp because of Flash Fire. In addition, the Pokemon that do get Wisp mostly suck besides Dragapult, Houndstone, and Ho-Oh.
And Garganacl + Ghost resist somehow do offer enough to a team, when Immunity Pokemon and Blissey themselves are immune to Ghost?
So? You are just weakening your own argument since if Immunity is so bad, why would I run Purifying Salt, which is extremely similar to Immunity, when I could just use a Thick Fat/Gluttony Snorlax?
I thought we were talking about stall or BO. Not Priority Guts spam.
...okay? Paralysis is still extremely niche and is only really used on Galvantula. I don't know why you are considering it as a factor in this argument.
Ceruledge is fringe and only found on Anger Shell teams, Basculegion is not meant to be a wallbreaker and if you struggle against it thats an issue with your team, Porygon only wants to use Shadow Ball to hit Ghosts even though the only defensive Ghosts are Houndstone and Giratina-O, neither of which are particularly threatening, special Dragapult is almost exclusively used on Dragon spam and rarely uses Shadow Ball, and Giratina-O isn't a wallbreaker for stall (no Atk boosting moves).
Stop portraying Ghost Pokemon as great wallbreakers when they are far, far worse than other wallbreakers, besides maybe Flutter Mane, and even that wants to use Moonblast more than Shadow Ball.
Furthermore, running Garganacl itself means that running Blissey is almost a waste, because they both block Ghosts, can set Stealth Rock, and can deal with status spam. However, Garganacl's Rock typing is absolutely atrocious and means it can lose to Landorus and Quaquaval, as well as horribly lacking special bulk.
If you look at Bobsican's stall team or my Regenerator Intimidate team that I have used to get to top ladder, you will see that neither can effectively slot on Garganacl without crippling key matchups.
am i the only one who thinks Archaludon teams are incredebly unhealthey for the meta game? fighting them is so increadbly annoying
What kind of team are you using? Guessing it’s a physical HO. There are a few techs that you can add like Endeavor on Lycanroc, Switcheroo on max speed Crawdaunt, or Draco Meteor on Giratina. These options aren’t wasted slots, either, because they help against Zamazenta, Houndstone, and Wo-Chien.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2316141429 Shared power seems fundamentally broken rn. I had two back to back games of harvest never activating. First time I chalked it up to bad luck since I use no sun, but now I noticed that unnerve also does not seem to share. OM banlist does not say either are restricted. Gluttony is also experiencing inconsistent activation across several games.
You might think this is only affecting berry related abilities but according to Inky, weather setting abilities are similarly glitched.
Also....
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2316151530 & https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2316166085-4ffytnukm6qcq431ivfauw3edi89ktspw In these games Wind Rider can also be seen having an inconsistent share.
Not exactly sure what's happening with the tier at the moment, but I'd heavily advise against using abilities that don't announce themselves or have extremely obvious ways of checking that they're on. For all I know this could be happening to calc altering abilities like Fluffy & Tough Claws.
You might think this is only affecting berry related abilities but according to Inky, weather setting abilities are similarly glitched.
Also....
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2316151530 & https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2316166085-4ffytnukm6qcq431ivfauw3edi89ktspw In these games Wind Rider can also be seen having an inconsistent share.
Not exactly sure what's happening with the tier at the moment, but I'd heavily advise against using abilities that don't announce themselves or have extremely obvious ways of checking that they're on. For all I know this could be happening to calc altering abilities like Fluffy & Tough Claws.
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so i just noticed shed tail wasn't banned in this om, and of course i had to try abusing it so i could see if it was any good here. upon making a team and trying it on ladder, i genuinely think shed tail needs to go. keep in mind, the team i made was made in like ten minutes, so im sure there is room for it to be even more broken.
the team: https://pokepast.es/b82bbec1cf2ea640
as u can probably tell by looking at it, the team centers around abusing shed tail and terapagos's tera shell. while neither regenerator nor tera shell are shared, they dont need to be. since shed tail leaves terapagos at full hp with a substitute for 172 hp, this essentially means terapagos gets an extra 50% of its health added on, where all moves that hit will be not very effective, all while it's setting up in ur face. granted this is shared power, and the tier is full of insanely powerful moves that can break that, until u add on defensive abilities. suddenly, it becomes way harder to break through the substitute when u also have to deal with the terapagos having tablets of ruin, vessel of ruin, and fluffy.
insane shit i've lived with just the substitute (off the top of my head, trust me there's way more):
- 2 consecutive adaptability+tough claws boosted close combats from quaquaval
- 4 consecutive tough claws+adaptability boosted crawdaunt aqua jets
- so many ting lu body presses that i lost count
to demonstrate what i said earlier about this being like nothing in terms of how broken shed tail can be, ill also mention that my shed tail team can easily be improved by swapping basculegion out for okidogi to get guard dog to prevent phasing, in case u felt like shutting down the easiest method of counterplay this strategy has. i only didnt bc i forgot guard dog did that when i made this team.
finally, here's a replay i got from earlier today while i was on ladder of this strat doing insane work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2317183521
tl;dr, unless im missing something rlly major in terms of counterplay and/or im just rlly stupid either of which are possible, shed tail is like very broken and probably needs to go
the team: https://pokepast.es/b82bbec1cf2ea640
as u can probably tell by looking at it, the team centers around abusing shed tail and terapagos's tera shell. while neither regenerator nor tera shell are shared, they dont need to be. since shed tail leaves terapagos at full hp with a substitute for 172 hp, this essentially means terapagos gets an extra 50% of its health added on, where all moves that hit will be not very effective, all while it's setting up in ur face. granted this is shared power, and the tier is full of insanely powerful moves that can break that, until u add on defensive abilities. suddenly, it becomes way harder to break through the substitute when u also have to deal with the terapagos having tablets of ruin, vessel of ruin, and fluffy.
insane shit i've lived with just the substitute (off the top of my head, trust me there's way more):
- 2 consecutive adaptability+tough claws boosted close combats from quaquaval
- 4 consecutive tough claws+adaptability boosted crawdaunt aqua jets
- so many ting lu body presses that i lost count
to demonstrate what i said earlier about this being like nothing in terms of how broken shed tail can be, ill also mention that my shed tail team can easily be improved by swapping basculegion out for okidogi to get guard dog to prevent phasing, in case u felt like shutting down the easiest method of counterplay this strategy has. i only didnt bc i forgot guard dog did that when i made this team.
finally, here's a replay i got from earlier today while i was on ladder of this strat doing insane work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2317183521
tl;dr, unless im missing something rlly major in terms of counterplay and/or im just rlly stupid either of which are possible, shed tail is like very broken and probably needs to go
Guts priority spam can defeat your team using Long Reach, stall can beat your team using Roar and Whirlwind or Haze or Tera Dark Clodsire, Harvest can beat your team using Curse Trevenant and some pivoting with Muk-Alola, Iron Crown, Metagross, and Solgaleo can somewhat wall Terapagos with Steel/Psychic typing (STAB Stored Power, Swords Dance Bullet Punch, Sunsteel Strike), Haxorus can defeat Terapagos with Mold Breaker Scale Shot on Dragon spam, Encore exists (Indeedee, Maushold, Ogerpon-Wellspring), and Ruination exists on Ting-Lu and Wo-Chien to break the Substitute.
In the game you posted, your opponent lacked a clear win condition (Tough Claws with Armarouge?), spammed Aqua Jet instead of Liquidation or Knock Off with Crawdaunt, sacrificed Lycanroc-Dusk for no clear reason, and used Light Screen with Archaludon. A good player would immediately understand that your team's gimmick is setting up Terapagos with Shed Tail, which makes you prone to setup moves since you lack strong offensive checks to Crawdaunt, Zangoose, Haxorus, and other setup sweepers.
Even if you were to change up your team and add on Okidogi to destroy non-Haze stall, that isn't really a sign of brokenness because many other teams/Pokemon can do this as well, such as Scrappy Long Reach Guts priority spam, Taunttrap Heatran, and Harvest spam.
In the game you posted, your opponent lacked a clear win condition (Tough Claws with Armarouge?), spammed Aqua Jet instead of Liquidation or Knock Off with Crawdaunt, sacrificed Lycanroc-Dusk for no clear reason, and used Light Screen with Archaludon. A good player would immediately understand that your team's gimmick is setting up Terapagos with Shed Tail, which makes you prone to setup moves since you lack strong offensive checks to Crawdaunt, Zangoose, Haxorus, and other setup sweepers.
Even if you were to change up your team and add on Okidogi to destroy non-Haze stall, that isn't really a sign of brokenness because many other teams/Pokemon can do this as well, such as Scrappy Long Reach Guts priority spam, Taunttrap Heatran, and Harvest spam.
im not 100% sure but it all depends on the team, i'm not sure i've seen much long reach on guts spam and i def havent faced it with this team
like u mentioned later in this post, putting okidogi on the team prevents roar/whirlwind, but yeah the team i posted doesnt beat it, haze does beat it but a lot of the common haze users (clodsire,toxapex) fold to stored power, which isnt usually a thing that gets run on terapagos, and while tera dark clod beats it, it needs to predict stored power is abt to be used to actually beat it, otherwise it dies to a stored power
true, assuming they get trevenant in early and that it doesnt die to whatever coverage move terap can have since the set i used could absolutely run earth power, flamethrower, ice beam, etc.
again, run earth power or flamethrower on terap over stored power, both of which i see more often than stored power and all of these are non-issues after like 1-2 calm minds if that. even if we're sticking with stored power, u can always tera stellar and now ur +1 or +2 terapagos is hitting neutrally with tera starstorm
sure, but those teams really dont feel that present rn with technician being restricted, although that may just be due to me not seeing them on ladder. even in this case, though, i feel like pivoting in with haxorus could be fairly hard to do given how much damage a +1 or +2 terap is gonna be doing and the frailness of haxorus
yeah i did forget abt these, but after a rock polish most encore users cant rlly do much given terap outspeeding, ting-lu in particular def gives terap some issues though, although pivoting in wo-chien or ting-lu to break the sub and then switching back out to something that can actually hurt terapagos is often going to give terapagos more than enough turns to set up and take the game from my experience
u also mentioned taunttrap heatran which does give terapagos issues with sub up considering fluffy, but it becomes way easier to deal with when ur terastalised at +2 dealing neutral damage to everything with a 120 bp stab move
last thing i wanna mention, i checked the replay i posted and im pretty sure that was not the one i meant to post, i used the team a decent amt on ladder today and must've saved the wrong replay when i went to post this, but yeah ur absolutely right that the replay i sent didnt really do much to justify my point, my bad on that lol