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SP Shared Power - Survey at post 418
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
Myce doesn't reduce your priority, it makes you move last inside your priority bracket, so if both use a move with the same priority then the myce user moves second.
It can be a bit confusing, so here's a replay showing the interaction:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1733502193
Okay thank you :)
Sheer Force doesn't boost the power of moves affected by Poison Touch.
Here's a replay to make sure: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734068076
Well done, but remember to post in the suspect thread to be able to vote: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-shared-power-suspect-1-houndstone.3711868/
I was gonna wait until I got reqs to post this but I can't. Espartha is so absolutely and absurdly broken within the context of the meta right now, and it all has to do with Opportunist. Thanks to various defense abilities in the meta such as Fluffy, Ice Scales, and Stamina, it is exceedingly easy for Espartha itself to setup and auto-win games if given a chance. Opportunist means a way of normally beating setup sweepers, setting up in front of them, is invalidated and actually helps Espartha win, and Fluffy + Stamina + Ice Scales means it is difficult to brute force past it. If Espartha was the sole user of this then it might be fine, but what really makes it clearly broken to me is the number of setup sweepers that benefit from Opportunist. Corviknight (Bulk Up + Power Trip), Palafin, Annihilape, Garganacl, and probably more I'm missing all can abuse the boosts offered to them by Opportunist, so if something sets up in front of them, then that's gg shake my hand.
Games featuring Espartha dittos almost always come down to games of "who can get their funny setup sweeper in with a free turn first", and if not that, then pure luck via attempting to crit past it. This is not fun for either side in the slightest and takes the game out of the player's hands if they get a bad MU/just so happen to get crit. Offensive counterplay to setup sweepers rarely works because Espartha can just Tera Fairy and there goes your offensive Ghost. Or Corviknight Tera Darks, ignore your Prankster Encore, and wins. The only methods of counterplay I've seen to Opportunist bulky setup sweeper strategies are crit users like Super Luck teams or Mewoscarda (for those Shell Armor exists), Prankster Haze (bad + loses to Palafin), or very specific brute force teams that solely rely on moves that don't make contact. Honestly the amount of leway given to Espartha teams is so massive that they can just prep for almost any bad MUs, and in abusing Espartha I've found that games often turn into extremmely one-sided interactions only dependent on when I can get my bulky setup sweeper in.
Replays where Espartha 6-0s:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1732162563-catre8r4eyygghkrxenn14gq1nm3pp1pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1732180228-a1hc8owwuy8yn8xv22w7s2ph4ca67yxpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734318411-4aebri7pyj454wm336q1a7st98bl2p1pw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734459864-a54jjp9sq5k3inudu387wja7xcakvt7pw
Replays where Opportunist lets another setup sweeper on the team win:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1732170704-xd5cwhpqlmh9ns2e214de5ogr7paxp8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734324748-x68hpdbz82gzphyh4me8dwyfr8j45w3pw (small caveat here: Tera also helps flip the MU on its head, so it + Opportunist turn what would be a smart building choice by my opponent and an insta-loss for me into an auto-win for me)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734350211-38brdgbf6bk3qrkd8r3bqfa4rq9crxkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734353780-x4etijk7hudmgsjumh3m3711sx7od73pw
I would really hate to ban anything during a suspect and I've definitely had fun abusing it, but Espartha is clearly broken and needs to go. It is utterly brainless to abuse, has too narrow counterplay (that the Espartha user can prep for easily), and ultimately ruins the meta by existing. Idc if Espartha or Opportunist gets banned but as long as one of them go, I would be happy.
Side note: it's also possible that Tera is the issue but I still can't see Opportunist strats being balanced with it gone.
I see your point, but I'm not convinced Espartha is the problem here, going by the replays is taking advantage of Stamina mirrors being decided to whoever got the best wall breaker and Skill Link teams being bad against Stamina to begin with.
I was gonna wait until I got reqs to post this but I can't. Espartha is so absolutely and absurdly broken within the context of the meta right now, and it all has to do with Opportunist. Thanks to various defense abilities in the meta such as Fluffy, Ice Scales, and Stamina, it is exceedingly easy for Espartha itself to setup and auto-win games if given a chance. Opportunist means a way of normally beating setup sweepers, setting up in front of them, is invalidated and actually helps Espartha win, and Fluffy + Stamina + Ice Scales means it is difficult to brute force past it. If Espartha was the sole user of this then it might be fine, but what really makes it clearly broken to me is the number of setup sweepers that benefit from Opportunist. Corviknight (Bulk Up + Power Trip), Palafin, Annihilape, Garganacl, and probably more I'm missing all can abuse the boosts offered to them by Opportunist, so if something sets up in front of them, then that's gg shake my hand.
Games featuring Espartha dittos almost always come down to games of "who can get their funny setup sweeper in with a free turn first", and if not that, then pure luck via attempting to crit past it. This is not fun for either side in the slightest and takes the game out of the player's hands if they get a bad MU/just so happen to get crit. Offensive counterplay to setup sweepers rarely works because Espartha can just Tera Fairy and there goes your offensive Ghost. Or Corviknight Tera Darks, ignore your Prankster Encore, and wins. The only methods of counterplay I've seen to Opportunist bulky setup sweeper strategies are crit users like Super Luck teams or Mewoscarda (for those Shell Armor exists), Prankster Haze (bad + loses to Palafin), or very specific brute force teams that solely rely on moves that don't make contact. Honestly the amount of leway given to Espartha teams is so massive that they can just prep for almost any bad MUs, and in abusing Espartha I've found that games often turn into extremmely one-sided interactions only dependent on when I can get my bulky setup sweeper in.
Replays where Espartha 6-0s:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1732162563-catre8r4eyygghkrxenn14gq1nm3pp1pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1732180228-a1hc8owwuy8yn8xv22w7s2ph4ca67yxpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734318411-4aebri7pyj454wm336q1a7st98bl2p1pw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734459864-a54jjp9sq5k3inudu387wja7xcakvt7pw
Replays where Opportunist lets another setup sweeper on the team win:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1732170704-xd5cwhpqlmh9ns2e214de5ogr7paxp8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734324748-x68hpdbz82gzphyh4me8dwyfr8j45w3pw (small caveat here: Tera also helps flip the MU on its head, so it + Opportunist turn what would be a smart building choice by my opponent and an insta-loss for me into an auto-win for me)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734350211-38brdgbf6bk3qrkd8r3bqfa4rq9crxkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1734353780-x4etijk7hudmgsjumh3m3711sx7od73pw
I would really hate to ban anything during a suspect and I've definitely had fun abusing it, but Espartha is clearly broken and needs to go. It is utterly brainless to abuse, has too narrow counterplay (that the Espartha user can prep for easily), and ultimately ruins the meta by existing. Idc if Espartha or Opportunist gets banned but as long as one of them go, I would be happy.
Side note: it's also possible that Tera is the issue but I still can't see Opportunist strats being balanced with it gone.
It seems less about Espartha and more about "stamina fluffyscales teams has counter play to its counter play", like how often I see people running Shell Armor/Battle Armor instead to get pass Super Luck, but in this case they are using Opportunist to get around set up sweepers and to easy the mirror, I can't see Opportunist being all that dangerous in other archetypes, and getting rid of Espartha would be, similar to the current suspect, a way to nerf this archetype. The counter play you are describing is quite similar to the one needed for other variants of this kind of teams, after all if teams that try to not use contact moves work against it, then isn't counter play against Fluffy the one that is needed? If it is crits, then aren't we talking about beating Stamina?
I'm not saying you are wrong, it is more about deciding what kind of variant of Stamina-Fluffy-Scales we should be nerfing, I went with the Houndstone suspect because I know of people that see other variants of this archetype as the problematic one, and I think it goes closer to the core of the possible problem.
If Houndstone stays, and there is still a sentiment that this archetype may be causing problems on some of its variants, then it would be nice to see if we can explore other solutions, like going after Opportunist, or Ice Scales, or Stamina.
The issue is as I said before, this form of counterplay is easily prepped for by the Espartha user. In the replays I posted, I was prepared for almost every single physical move that did not make contact, barring Super Luck + Skill Link strats (which are bad because most Stamina teams will have Shell Armor or Battle Armor to negate this and wasting a slot on Honkcrow, which is slow, doesn't help all that much against offensive teams), which I admittedly did not prep for because I was more concerned with other more common MUs, such as Unnerve BU Corv for Berry teams + other Espartha. Still, it is not difficult to switch out Daschbun for a specially defensive Fire resist with a crit denying ability, like RestTalk Torkoal or Drednaw (yes, they work, stall in this tier can get away with pretty much anything).
You do bring up an interesting point about interactions with Stamina + Ice Scales + Fluffy however, which is something I thought of. While all of these abilities played a role in helping Espartha sweep, I believe that each of them are healthy aspects of the meta, which is why I choose to focus on Opportunist and Espartha. Fluffy prevents physically offensive teams from becoming too powerful in the meta, and when Decidueye is released, will force them to dedicate a slot to Long Reach over a damage amp ability, making them weaker overall. Ice Scales similarly prevents specially offensive teams from becoming too powerful; while the Quick Feet ban neutered them, Beads of Ruin is still quite powerful, and Home + DLC will definitely give these teams a boost with Expanding Force coming back, along with Transistor and viable Sheer Force users. Stamina is definitely a bit more suspect considering the defense boosts help tremendously, but I also cannot see a way of punishing Skill Link teams without it. Maybe Skill Link is broken? By contrast, Opportunist provides no net positive or healthy impact to keep things in check; it only benefits bulky setup sweepers, where the traditional counterplay is to setup alongside them, since at a certain point, even aggressive brute force will do little. While it is possible to build a team with Opportunist without a bulky setup sweeper and still find success, I believe that the applications where it is unbalanced and broken outweigh the applications where it is balanced and fair.
As a final note, I implore anyone who does not believe me to ladder for a bit using an Espartha semi-stall. Unless you run into a hard counter team with multiple ways of beating Opportunist setup sweepers (btw it speaks volumes to how broken something is when people have to prep for something multiple times on one team just to have a chance versus it), they are some of the easiest wins I've ever gotten. Lead Fluffy, swap around until all abilities are activated, find a free turn for your setup sweeper, ggwp. At the risk of making ladder unplayable for those trying to obtain reqs, here's the team I've personally been using for 80% of my matches.
Last edited:
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
Without trying to repeat too much of what Kaen had already said, I feel that this is less of an Espathra issue and more of an issue with how powerful the semi-stall archetype is right now. Espathra is a powerful set-up threat, and the ability to deter setup because you steal boosts is powerful. However, I feel that the whole strategy with Espathra is being enabled by the very thing we're looking to suspect right now, being Houndstone and stall/semi-stall teams. It's tricky to balance, because as you said, they're necessary components of the meta as to not allow certain offensive strategies to run rampant. On the other hand, it feels like teams, at times, lack the ability to break through Ice Scales + Fluffy + Stamina even with the stacking of offensive abilities. Adding something like Espathra only exascerbates the problem. With that being said, I think there are a few different ways to go about this. 1) We considering tiering action for semi-stall (like we are currently with this suspect test), as other very powerful semi-stall archetypes exist such as Gargancl or Annihilape ones in addition to Espathra. 2) We go after Opportunist and then eventually the other powerful threats enabled by Fluffy + Stamina + Ice Scales like Annihilape.
The latter is fairly self explanatory. Explaining the first option: A hit to semi-stall teams would also handle the Espathra problem (as well as other variants in the archetype) in that Espathra teams have way less bulk to work with, meaning set-up is way less free for them. Set-up is already free for the most part due to the fact that those teams stack as many defensive abilities as possible rather than Opportunist. Opportunist helps but the main thing is your teams are too bulky to kill to begin with. Aside from losing their bulk, as of right now, setting up is probably the best way to beat Fluffy + Ice Scales + Stamina teams, which plays into Espathra's strengths. Espathra's presence already hinders set-up. Nerfs to the archetype may further deter set up teams due to 1) running into Espathra is a gg and 2) You can sufficiently break defensive teams without set-up (I don't feel that is the case at the moment). As of right now, I don't believe that Espathra/Opportunist are problematic enough to hit. I've been running semi-stall since the start of the ladder (including Espathra), and as I previously said, it feels more like an issue with how powerful semi-stall is. Like Kaen said, our focus is on Houndstone at the moment. We do appreciate post like this though, and we are open to changing our minds as the discussion continues.
Thanks for the response! One question: if Fluffy is part of the issue, why not suspect it instead of Houndstone? I get that Last Respects makes Houndstone very good, but as previous gens have shown, people have used really bad mons with no tools like Dubwool or Frosmoth just because of their abilites. I've been experimenting with a level 69 Grevard (nice) with Fluffy to see if it actually had a different impact, and it really hasn't played a different role in how I use Fluffy on defensive teams.
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
Our rationale at the time was we didn't want to outright remove Fluffy, as it plays a key role in keeping Physical Attacking oriented strategies in check, but we also wanted to lower the consistency of Fluffy + Ice Scales + Stamina (I'm just going to create an acronym for this). We arrived at a Houndstone suspect since it was a good way to get an idea on the landscape of the meta post bans, as well as allowing us to gauge what the community thinks. Fluffy was around last gen, but, to us, what separated Houndstone from Dubwool or Bewear is that it's actually a good Pokemon. Its best set is probably Choice Scarf, which give your teams an offensive punch (albeit slow) to surprise threats by outspeeding (Gallade for instance) and KOing them, spreading fast Wisps, or trading with Destiny Bond. The defensive set works great as well since you aren't passive enough to be taken advantage of but also bulky enough to stay in and threaten things. It's like you said though, people will run a Pokemon simply for the ability regardless of if it is good, but this was an instance of a Pokemon having a powerful defensive ability and actually being good. We figured needing to run Greavard to have Fluffy might've been a good balance between trying to nerf the consistency of FIS while also trying to keep other powerful strategies in check. Ultimately, it seems that Fluffy is the end all be all here, and Houndstone is just a "win-more" type of thing.
Its been fun playing this meta, and ive been able to get #1 on the ladder on two accounts with this team - https://pokepast.es/c5334a0b4c9dbf24. It's honestly super cheap and reminds me of the sturdy + skill link teams that I used in past gens in that I can tell off team preview that Im guaranteed to win versus at least half the teams I play. So It honestly is a little broken and I think Dragonite with espeed should be looked at by the council because this guy one hits everything that's not fluffy or a suuuuper defensive resistance after I set up all the abilities.
But yea if anyone wants to use this team dragonite destroys offense, cm sylveon + kingambit destroy stall, sylveon hyper voice and dnite espeed destroys sub berry teams. The only kind of team it struggles with is psychic terrain but it can still be beat with good counterplay
But yea if anyone wants to use this team dragonite destroys offense, cm sylveon + kingambit destroy stall, sylveon hyper voice and dnite espeed destroys sub berry teams. The only kind of team it struggles with is psychic terrain but it can still be beat with good counterplay
https://pokepast.es/72b4cc7b8ffa2692
Fury Cutter + Sharpness + STAB could make that move useless to powerful.
More to the point, Technician gives Garganacl a 60 BP Salt Cure, Adaptability will boost it ever further beyond.
Technician also gives Rage Fist 75 BP as a head start as long Annihilape hasn't taken a hit.
Air Slash is boosted by Sharpness, Plus Annihilape can take advantage of Multiscale to make it a huge treat.
Hey guys i was reading around ways to counter fluffy, and i was wondering if the new item punching glove would work as described by bulbapedia.
Punching glove
Effect
Punching Glove increases the power of punching moves and prevents contact with targets.
surely this would mean i could equip the punching glove and bypass fluffyy.
I know in the past protective pads didn't work like this but the wording is different.
Protective pads
Effect
Protects the holder from effects caused by using moves that make contact with the target.
Punching glove
Effect
Punching Glove increases the power of punching moves and prevents contact with targets.
surely this would mean i could equip the punching glove and bypass fluffyy.
I know in the past protective pads didn't work like this but the wording is different.
Protective pads
Effect
Protects the holder from effects caused by using moves that make contact with the target.
This should be tested ingame (it may have been tested already, but I couldn't find anything on the research thread), but at least in PS! Punching Glove let you break pass Fluffy.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1736701829
That's a really cool discovery! This could be useful on Annihilape, since Drain Punch and Rage Fist are both punching moves.
Revival Blessing Prankster Dbond
https://pokepast.es/dd8dcc0c60b2e12e
Current version of this team. Gallade uses Psycho cut and punching glove + Drain Punch to hit through Fluffy. Pawmot can get up to two Dbonders back up for more Dbonding. Houndstone's roar helps for removing Def boosts.
On a side note:
A funny meme is:
+ 1/3 confusion health berries to get some healing while having Evasion doubled. Too much can stop this I feel (No Guard and Unnerve).
https://pokepast.es/dd8dcc0c60b2e12e
Current version of this team. Gallade uses Psycho cut and punching glove + Drain Punch to hit through Fluffy. Pawmot can get up to two Dbonders back up for more Dbonding. Houndstone's roar helps for removing Def boosts.
On a side note:
A funny meme is:
+ 1/3 confusion health berries to get some healing while having Evasion doubled. Too much can stop this I feel (No Guard and Unnerve).Sharpness + Tough Claws Population Bomb
https://pokepast.es/902850390547ec73
Population Bomb gets boosted by Sharpness and plus Maushold's Technician will give a base power of 40 (twice as normal) and Tough Claws boost it to bonkers Annihilating anything that doesn't resist 1/4 to it or are immune (ghost types in natural)
Compound Eyes will always ensure Polulation Bomb connect all 10 hits
Own Tempo grants immunity to Intimidate.
https://pokepast.es/902850390547ec73
Population Bomb gets boosted by Sharpness and plus Maushold's Technician will give a base power of 40 (twice as normal) and Tough Claws boost it to bonkers Annihilating anything that doesn't resist 1/4 to it or are immune (ghost types in natural)
Compound Eyes will always ensure Polulation Bomb connect all 10 hits
Own Tempo grants immunity to Intimidate.
This may be obvious but i just realised that physical tera blast also ignores fluffy
Tera Blast doesn't make contact, that explains it.
https://pokepast.es/cc04bfe88b8127c0 I know this would probably be unviable but I do think this would at least be a bit fun to play with when it's possible
Pressure doesn't seem to work properly, is this a bug or intended somehow?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1744361378-2otmx62c5u1ulbkxigpusrqq4ongzs0pw
On turn 44 I throw by clicking Roost instead of attacking, and my opponent sets up Substitute. I keep playing it out because I know that my Corviknight's original ability is Pressure, and I can outlast 8 uses of Substitute. But its BP is being reduced normally for some reason, and I lose as a result.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-1744361378-2otmx62c5u1ulbkxigpusrqq4ongzs0pw
On turn 44 I throw by clicking Roost instead of attacking, and my opponent sets up Substitute. I keep playing it out because I know that my Corviknight's original ability is Pressure, and I can outlast 8 uses of Substitute. But its BP is being reduced normally for some reason, and I lose as a result.