SP Shared Power - Survey at post 418

[Fracterra]

Whomever Encounters This Team Shall Need Therapy
https://pokepast.es/85da7d4b2a4347dc

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https://pokepast.es/5fecc5f53e726fce
Greninja Team With a 112 BP Priority Water Shuriken

in respons to aips, jesus christ, ive created a monster

 

[AIPS]

https://pokepast.es/5fecc5f53e726fce
Greninja Team With a 112 BP Priority Water Shuriken

It's actually way stronger 15x1.5(Technician)x2(Adaptability)x5(Skill Link) is already 225BP
Give it the Torrent boost and 5 SO boosts its 438BP
All that without Choice Specs or BoR

In fact:
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Greninja Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 239-282 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In fact in fact:
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Water Greninja Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 319-376 (83 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[KaenSoul]

I want to share what is planned for post HOME SP, this isn't final (but it may be, as I was getting ready for it to drop tomorrow):

New Pokémon Bans:
New abilities banned: Fur Coat Quick Draw
Unbans:

We would be adding the following mons to the tier if what we know about home is true:


Now I will get into detail about some stuff:

The only planned unban as, for starters, there aren't many banned mons in the format and the others would only get better. Now that the selection of special attackers is increasing, it should be much easier to make specially oriented teams without recurring to subpar mons like Copperajah for abilities, meaning the power level should drastically increase and therefor we may not have to worry much about Ice Scales + Vessel of Ruin negating Special Damage and hurting the viability of special attackers.


We have been discussing the possibility of banning Psychic Terrain for a while now, as it is not much different from banned abilities like Queenly Majesty on its current state, but with the arrival of Rillaboom things may change, as we would finally have another viable Terrain setter to combat it, but it may still not be enough as it would be quite centralized with no other options for it as Electric Terrain is already banned and Misty still has no users, and on top of that we aren't sure if Rilla will keep Grassy Glide and that's big part of its viability. Also, if Psychic Terrain leaves we may take action on some priority abusers like Dragonite, Palafin and Greninja down the line.


Don't really expect Tera to break eleki here, last gen it could get Refrigerate from Aurorus, and it didn't break anything, if anything it looks less impressive with Electric Terrain banned (so it can't spam Rising even if it keeps it), on top of Ting-Lu existing.


Some may remember that we suspect tested Houndstone during OMotM season, with Last Respect being part of the reason but not the only reason, and that ended with most people being fine with Houndstone as a whole, there is no reason yet to believe Last Respects is ban worthy in SP, if either/both Basculegion get out of control the action will be on them.


Thanks to Palafin we have been able to see how a mon with absurd stats can be fine if they don't have an ability to offer, Palkia can be seed as a special version of Palafin that is slower, can't boost its main attacking stat and lacks priority, all for Dragon typing and not being forced to waste a turn switching out. While we don't plan to free Palkia and Dialga, at least not for now, don't be surprised if you see them unbanned on excluded room tours that will help at seeing what kind of impact they would have. I was also considering Zamazenta, but the way DShield is implemented means it will activate every time the non-original user switches in, making it still a quite potent ability, if the way it works changes we could discuss it.

 

[NoobHereWaddup]

some cores that i theorized with the home pokemon in mind:
(Rock Head) (Reckless)
You can already do this with sudowoodo or basculin-blue, but arcanine-h should be a much stronger pokemon for the combo, having much higher speed that sudowoodo and higher attack than both sudowoodo and basculin. On top of that, STAB flare blitz punishes pokemon with fluffy.

(Soul Heart) (Beads of Ruin) (Adaptability) (Sheer Force)
So if I'm reading the list of new pokemon correctly, magearna and lando-i are NOT banned, which leads to this core of trying to make the strongest special attacks of all time. BoR + Adaptability + Sheer Force should already be hard to tank without ice scales and soul heart is there to add salt in the wound by making attacks even stronger after each ko. Other pokemon could be added, like moltres-galar or spectrier to add even more special attack boosts, fully agree with ting-lu getting unbanned because these special cores don't look ok lmao.

(Shell Armor) (Ice Scales)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Goodra-Hisui: 129-153 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The calc seems nice considering that other abilities are not included like adaptability, sheer force or VoR, but honestly i'm not sure how great goodra-h is going to be, the only thing i imagine it doing is being a bulky set-up sweeper with acid armor/shelter or phazing with dragon tail, but maybe it can earn its spot on a bulky team thanks to shell armor.

The following cores are somewhat gimmicky, so no clue on how viable they could be:
(Scrappy) (Serene Grace)
The star of this combo is serene grace triple arrows, which if i understand correctly, when boosted by serene grace, has a high critical hit ratio, guaranteed to reduce the opponents defense and has a 60% chance to flinch. Unfortunately I don't think its gonna be easy to set up due to decidueye's awful speed, max speed is 360 WITH a choice scarf, without it it gets 240 max speed, so you're really not getting much out of the flinches.

(Poison Touch) (Merciless) (Corrosion) (Technician)
Poison spam + fake outs, the idea is to make fake out as strong as possible while giving it a chance to poison, and once that happens every move is a crit. This is another combo thats already possible since toxicroak gets both poison touch and fake out, but persian-alola is a massive blessing for this core, providing technician and a useful dark typing. Again, very gimmicky, since psychic surge would be a massive nightmare to deal with.

 

[KaenSoul]

HOME is out, but unlike other tiers we voted on stuff that was already here.
Psychic Surge and Dragonite have been banned!

	KaenSoul	Clefable/Mengy	kenn	ponchlake	Chromate
Psychic Surge	Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban
Dragonite	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban

Psychic Surge is pretty much an upgrade from the already banned Queenly Majesty as there aren't any other relevant terrains right now to combat it thanks to Rillaboom not getting Grassy Glide back, Electric Surge being banned and Misty Surge MIA. This is a ban is something we have been thinking about for some time now and as nothing has popped out as a form of effective counterplay to it, we had to finally take action. The ability to prevent a form of counterplay to your powerful cleaners and set up sweepers while also powering up Psychic moves was too much.


Pixilate and Scrappy allowed Dragonite to spam powerful Extreme Speeds without having to worry about Ghosts-types, and while other Pokémon also learn Extreme Speed, they don't compare to Dragonite, as the dragon has the best stats and grants a powerful ability to the rest of its team. And with Psychic Surge leaving, there just wasn't going to be an answer to it other than some hard stall as it was already invalidating any offensive team without Psychic Surge or Focus Sash spam.

 

[KaenSoul]

Dialga, Dialga-Origin and Palkia (base) have been freed!

If you have been around the PS OM room lately, you may have noticed that most SP room tours had these 3 freed, and that may sound crazy, but they haven't been all that impressive so far.
While all 3 of them have great stats, they don't have much beyond that, the best ability they can pass is Pressure which isn't great, it has some uses in stall teams, but they don't really fit well in there and prefer to receive offensive abilities, and while those help them to break better they still aren't as effective as other stuff that is already allowed, for example:
252 SpA Adaptability Basculegion-F Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Palkia is doing the same damage as a base 100 SpA mon, and unlike that other mon, is not sharing an ability while doing so, therefor lowering the possible damage your team can deal as you are playing with 5 abilities instead of 6.
They also have no way to boost their main offensive stats and don't learn priority moves, so they bring less to the team than Palafin who is also an abilityless mon with very similar stats, and at that Palafin has a higher offensive stat, is faster than Dialga and has pretty much the same bulk as them, which really says a lot about the powercreep this gen, huh.

EDIT: We are also disabling/banning Illusion because it doesn't properly work (it doesn't share), this also means Zoroark/Zorua will be unusable. We don't if it will be fixed any time soon, so no need to ask.

 

[Gimlaf]

With Psychic Surge gone, here's a team that takes a different approach to Gale Wings (as much as I love my Brave Bird Spam, I wanted to build a new team that has more countermeasures to Focus Sashes).

- - - - - (click for pokepaste)


Originally I intended to focus on Salamence's Dual Wingbeat as a priority move that deals with sashes, so Gale Wings was a given. Technician was also high on my priority list (pardon the pun, lol). Then I realized Aerial Ace would be the next best Flying move for those without Dual Wingbeat, as it is Technician boosted as well. Then I realized Aerial Ace is also Sharpness boosted, resulting in a BP of 135, just slightly lower than Reckless Brave Bird's 144.
You know what else is boosted by both Sharpness and Technician, while being on a mon that provides said Technician?


Maushold's Population Bomb.
And thus I committed to a team that has both strong priority and the funny SharpnessTech Popbomb. Additionally, Maus learns Aerial Ace, just in case one needs the priority (assuming it's at full health).


Since I mentioned Sharpness (multiple times even), I also need a mon with that. I decided on Hamurott, since it sets hazards (unlike Gallade) and has a priority move in Aqua Jet (whereas Kleavor would only have Quick Attack).


Basculegion's Adaptability amplifies the team's overall damage, and since Last Respects is free, it can threaten massive damage itself. Even more so when buffed further by Supreme Overlord. This was also meant as the main way to break fat teams (as Last Respects isn't affected by Fluffy), but since I haven't played against fat in ages, I don't know if it actually works well. The damage is massive in theory, said theory being "you lost a few of your mons and didn't let your opponent grab defense boosts from Iron Defense, Stamina or something like that". But don't get me wrong, Basculegion with Last Respects still seems super scary.
I went with Tera Dark on this just because I like turning the tables on Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. However by teraing this it loses the Adaptability boost on its moves. I'm not sure if that trade-off is worth it. Maybe Tera Water is a better call to at least lose the weakness to those moves while getting the most of its Water STAB.


Kingambit of course provides Supreme Overlord, while making use of Sharpness and Adaptability. It has Aerial Ace (like most of this team) so there is less need for Sucker Punch predicts as long as it stays at full health.

Even though the individual sets may need some work (I probably should use HDB instead of Sash on Mence...and I might want to run Taunt somewhere), this is definitely a team I'm going to tinker with more; I've only used it in today's daily, which it won. So there is at least some promise to that.

 

[KaenSoul]

This entire meta is a matchup fish with mons like Chi-yu, Houndstone, and Heatran unbanned. Games in our (basically daily) tours in the OM chat room are usually decided turn 0.

Could you explain how any of these mons is causing any trouble?
I haven't even seen Chi-Yu doing anything ever since the psychic surge ban and its viability is questionable right now, Heatran is only used to pass flash fire, and it doesn't really do much more that any other fire immunity, and Houndstone while good, is also only there to pass Fluffy and that is the easiest part to play around when fighting a stall team.

 

[KaenSoul]

I do believe a lot can still be done to keep improving this format, and after the little to not change Dialga and Palkia caused I think increasing the powerlevel is a fair option, and with the ban of Psychic Surge the different offensive archetype have an easier time checking each other, currently the best archetypes are defensive and things aren't looking that bad, but I believe Tera is making them way more powerful than what they should be, allowing anything to bypass its checks.
So the changes I have planned include:
1) Tera Ban.
2) Drought and Electric Surge unbanned, Chlorophyll and Raichu-Alola would be banned instead. The speed boost from Proto and Quark is lower and requires specific structures to always be a speed boost, so it may be worth to give it a chance now, specially with all forms of anti priority banned.
3) Eternatus, Giratina, Giratina-Origin, Groudon, Koraidon, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Miraidon and Palkia-Origin may all be freed, balancing this format around a OU powerlevel hasn't made any sense for a while now, currently around half of the ubers are allowed and with more being discussed to be freed I think speeding things up may be better, I expect Korai and Mirai to have the biggest impact, but because of the nature of the format more of these behemoths being allowed doesn't change the actual meta as much as it would change any other, you still need to combine them with weaker mons to get good abilities, none of those can defend themselves from some of top teams allowed right now like Gale Wings and Pixie Espeed variants while also not fitting that well on them.
Depending on how things go, we may ban or unban more stuff later, but for now this should be enough to improve sp.
This is just what I think we should do next, the council still has to discuss it before we get to a decision, and if anyone else wants to discuss it too they are welcome.

 

[KaenSoul]

Even if individually these pokemon aren't a problem, they harshly limit what is and isn't viable.

For example, Fluffy is counterable with things like Long Reach or Punching Glove. But if you want to run Long Reach, you have to actually find a use for Decidueye, and punching glove can either get knocked or tricked or what not.

Heatran is carefully balanced around it's weakness to ground and when that's circumnavigated by things like Orthworm (who's actually quite viable when you give it Flash Fire and Fluffy) or other levitate mons, you end up with a threat that's only managable by opposing Heatran.

Beads of Ruin is counterable by Ice Scales, but Frosmoth is plain up bad outside of giving other mons Ice Scales. A quad weakness to rocks and a lack of utility outside of it's donated ability makes it (AT BEST) a suicide lead.

The presence of overbearing abilities (Fluffy, Beads of Ruin) without good checks leads to a meta where you are essentially queueing with one type of team which boils down to rock paper scissors.

Is not that hard to find a use for Decidueye, is not only giving one ability, is gaining 5, it has great synergy with a lot of great abilities, Leaf Blade mix well with Sharpness, Shadow Sneak mix well with Technician, Brave Bird with Gale Wings, is not the best mon, but that is a good thing, the nature of SP requires your team to not only be good mons, you will have to find use to more niche mons to get access to a lot of great abities, is one of the few things that help SP be somewhat balanced, similarly Frosmoth becomes a good set-up sweepers when paired with other defensive donors, defensive teams are very strong right now but the fact they have a hard time fitting better walls and often end with almost no healing is what prevent them from being outright broken.
Beads of Ruin isn't that good right now, not because of Ice Scales, but because it is quite hard for Chi-Yu to do anything against a physically oriented offensive team, as they always pack strong priority that can one shot everything in a team that is just blindly adding special attackers.
Shared Power is different from other formats and is not exactly wrong to say is quite rock-paper-scissors like, as preparing for everything is impossible with the endless amount of combinations that exists, the existence of strong abilities like Fluffy and Ice Scales is the only thing making possible for any combination of offensive abilities to be somewhat balanced, without them the only way to find balance would be to reduce the power level to a point where we not only don't have access to strong Pokémon but also to any decent ability, as most offensive mons would have no real counterplay without Fluffy, centralization is something this format needs to not self-destruct.
Also, Heatran is not broken, is not a bad mon and there are valid reasons to use it, but I have a hard time choosing it over Dachsbun as my fire immunity in a defesive team or Ceruledge in an offensive team.

 

[KaenSoul]

So after some discussion and testing, the final list of changes for this SP "Uber" transition is the following:


Calyrex-Ice, Eternatus, Giratina, Giratina-Origin, Groudon, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Palkia-Origin, Drought and Electric Surge are now unbanned!

And Raichu-alola and Chlorophyll are now banned!

As explained before, the nature of the format limits the use you can give to high BST mons that don't have good abilities to pass can have, and while that doesn't exactly apply to Kyogre and Groudon they still have some of the problems all these mons have, they are not fast enough to be effective sweepers, their STABs aren't good for wall breakers as there is pretty of options for Ground/Water immunities, they should be just fine with the current power level of the format only because their stats make them usable.
With Drought and Electric Surge now allowed, we are banning Surge Surfer and Chlorophyll to keep speed control in check, Protosynthesis and Quark Drive give a smaller boost and is conditional so easier to check, but we may keep an eye on the best paradoxes now.

Almost forgot, but we also voted on Terastalizing, and we will be implementing Terastal Clause too!

 

[KaenSoul]

Someone is going to hate me for this.
Zacian and Zamazenta in their Hero formes are now free!

They weren't unbanned with the previous group because their abilities were bugged in the format, but thanks to Hizo/Instruct they work now, and we will be giving them a chance too. Their abilities only activating once for each mon make them less scary, but they may still end being too much so we will only be allowing the weaker Hero forms and will watch closely to see what happens.

 

[KaenSoul]

First want to mention Kenn stepped down from his council position, thanks for everything.
Ever since the Psychic Surge ban we have been paying close attention to Priority users, as they have been dominating the format limiting the viability of other offensive mons, with that in mind we decided to vote on some of the main abusers:

	KaenSoul	Chromate	Ponchlake	Clefable
Gale Wings	Ban	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban
Palafin	Do Not Ban	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban
Scizor	Do Not Ban	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban

With this Gale Wings is now banned!
But what makes Gale Wings different from other forms of priority?
First, as an ability it can be passed, so you can easily have 6 Pokémon with strong priority moves like Sharpness Aerial Ace, Rock Head Brave Bird, Serene Grace Air Slash or Hurricane.
But you need to be at full Health, no?
Thanks to HDB that isn't that hard, so the only "common" cheap that can usually disrupt you is from sand (assuming it affects you at all) or Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin (that will still get hit once by priority and doesn't affect everyone).

 

[KaenSoul]

DLC Update time! First some council changes, Chromate left us, but we are very thankful for all their work, but also Gimlaf has joined the council.

Magic Guard is banned. It makes any form of passive damage strategies unviable, even the use of hazards, reducing the counterplay against stall to unholy degrees, while also making Focus Sash spam much stronger, on top of removing recoil for both moves and Life Orb.

Neutralising Gas is also banned, forgot to mention it originally. No need to explain what it does.

Fur Coat ban is being replaced by a Perisan-Alola ban, Quick Draw ban is being replaced by a Slowbro-Galar ban and the Simple ban is being replaced by a Numel ban for consistency.

All that was decided before DLC dropped, but today we voted on additional stuff:

	KaenSoul	Ponchlake	Clefable	Gimlaf	Result
Zamazenta-Crowned	Unban	Unban	Keep Banned	Unban	Free
Shaymin-Sky	Allow	Do Not Allow	Allow	Abstain	Free
Chien-Pao	Unban	Keep Banned	Unban	Keep Banned	Banned
Guts	Unban	Unban	Keep Banned	Unban	Free
Psychic Surge	Unban	Unban	Unban	Unban	Free
Starf Berry	Unban	Keep Banned	Unban	Keep Banned	Banned

Zamazenta-C, Guts and Psychic Surge have been unbanned!
We will keep a close eye on those, but we believe they should all be fine now, Zamazenta-H has been allowed for a while and kind of bad, so is fair to give Crowned a chance as the power increase isn't that big, Guts should be powerful but being item dependent limits who can use it and in which structures, finally with Misty Surge coming back with Weezing-Galar and Grassy Surge being better with Grassy Glide back we believe that is a good time to give another chance to Psychic Surge.

Dragonite and Gale Wings have been freed, as Psychic Surge is now unbanned.


Everything else coming with the DLC is going to be allowed, yes.

Kris yo.

 

[KaenSoul]

And this will be final unban slate, at least until next time we a ladder/DLC2, whatever happen first:

	KaenSoul	Clefable	Ponchlake	Gimlaf
Sturdy	Unban	Unban	Unban	Unban
Starf Berry	Unban	Keep Banned	Keep Banned	Unban
Tera	Unban	Abstain	Abstain	Unban

Sturdy and Tera have been unbanned!

With all the changes we had this year, the tier has become quite different from what it was when Sturdy was banned, now there are way more multi hit moves available as Dual Wingbeat and Scale Shot become TMs, on top of all the different mons that have been released and unbanned, so it should be worth a try and see the impact it may have now.
This also means Donphan and Ogerpon-Cornerstone can be used again, yay!

With DLC a lot of what was being problematic with Tera has become less dominant, like bulky set up sweepers, hard stall and priority users, so it may be a good time to re-introduce it to the tier, the plan is to suspect test it next time we have a ladder but nothing is set in stone.

 

[Preliminary Pex]

Hey I've been experimenting and playing shared power as a modifier to existing formats using the custom commands "/challenge national dex ag @@@ sharedpower, +all moves, !obtainable moves" and it turns out some abilities are broken and wont ever be passed along. this includes levitate and sheer force for Sheer Force you still take Life Orb chip from sheer force boosted moves and levitate just doesn't work.

 

[KaenSoul]

Hey I've been experimenting and playing shared power as a modifier to existing formats using the custom commands "/challenge national dex ag @@@ sharedpower, +all moves, !obtainable moves" and it turns out some abilities are broken and wont ever be passed along. this includes levitate and sheer force for Sheer Force you still take Life Orb chip from sheer force boosted moves and levitate just doesn't work.

The format is not mean to be used as modifier, you have to use it as the base format, you would have to do something like Shared Power @@@ Standard NatDex, !obtainable

 

[Preliminary Pex]

The format is not mean to be used as modifier, you have to use it as the base format, you would have to do something like Shared Power @@@ Standard NatDex, !obtainable

I understand that ,However is there any technical reason why that's the case? any reason for it not to work that way? Cause it seems like its not a purposeful thing. Idk if something bugging it as a modifier even at all.

 

[ponchlake]

I understand that ,However is there any technical reason why that's the case? any reason for it not to work that way? Cause it seems like its not a purposeful thing. Idk if something bugging it as a modifier even at all.

That's just how the code is

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Not even Ability Shield will make Neutralizing Gas to be unbanned?

 

[ponchlake]

Not even Ability Shield will make Neutralizing Gas to be unbanned?

I'm not trying to be rude but for what reason should Neutralizing Gas be legal in an OM revolved entirely around abilities? Ability Shield aside I fail to see what Neutralizing Gas does anything for the tier besides being completely unbalanced and unfun, as well as completely destroying the OM's entire premise.

To answer your question though: Neutralizing Gas is never coming back under any circumstances.

 

[KaenSoul]

Not even Ability Shield will make Neutralizing Gas to be unbanned?

It wouldn't be balanced to make Ability Shield mandatory on all Pokémon, no.

 

[KaenSoul]

Hey fellas, with SP becoming a ladder soon I need to make some week 1 announcements, as my plans have been hurt by this happening before DLC2.
We won't ban anything the first few days, and there will be a survey up the first weekend, to get a general idea of what people think of the format, a Tera suspect was planned but with DLC2 dropping Tera Rainbow in most likely a month after, we don't want to hold the suspect just for the result to be invalidated right away, so depending on the survey results we may or may not have the suspect this month.

While everyone is free to discuss whatever they want, I would love to see discussion and replays featuring the watchlist, that includes:
Basculegion (both Male and Female)
Espathra
Shaymin-Sky
Zacian-Hero
Sturdy

Would also know if anyone think that any of the currently banned elements may be ok to be freed, and that includes Starf Berry, Regenerator, Rayquaza, Zacian-Crowned, etc.

So yeah, happy laddering later this week.

 

[Don Bozo]

I'm gonna share an idea of what I thunk could be good. You can run natural cure blissey alongside mons like Dialga, Giratina, Kyogre etc. And run Rest. Once you switch, you are no longer asleep. Atm I'm thinking like Blissey/Frosmoth/Wo-Chien + 3 ubers like Groudon Dia-O Gira-O. These 3 ubers will be very hard to kill, has pressure to PP stall and can all run Rest + phasing moves. Just an idea of what I think could be very good.

Edit: here is a team I quickly made. I didn't care about tera and the evs could be changed
https://pokepast.es/2a5d61a4993c14a7

 

[Billybobman]

I kind of picture a Shaymin-S team to look like this:

https://pokepast.es/d511925298f6590f (I didnt bother figuring out tera stuff)

Serene grace gives you 60% chance paralysis from Thunders and Body Slams, as well as 60% chance burn from scalds. Kind of gives the musdale Twave in a way. Air Slash with leftovers can bring Shaymin back to Multiscale range. Stamina is to combat multi hit moves and provide some defense. Rest + Hydration also brings you back to Multiscale range. In practice, I bet Thunder will miss a lot against Groudon teams. But Rain seems like a cool way to combat Sun, which I am afraid of due to stuff like Flutter Mane sharing protosynthesis.

Talonflame prio + airslash seems like a possibility too.

Dire Claw + Serene Grace sounds kind of lame, b/c of the sleep chance. Should dire claw be considered a sleep move?