Shoddy Battlers : Illegal Breeding combo's allowed, your take ?

Hypnox

CREDIT TO DARK AZELF: Founder of this topic.


Originally Posted by Limitless
My question to Colin:
"I heard from multiple sources that illegal move-sets would be allowed in ShoddyBattle 2. Can this be confirmed, and if so, how stern on this ruling will you be? I can imagine a multitude of people would complain."

Colin's response:
"If you allow trades from Japanese DP, then certain move combinations are possible that are not possible without allowing trades from Japanese DS. I intend for it to be possible to allow trades from Japanese DP in Shoddy Battle 2."
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Dark Azelf did some research into the matter himself and found the following ;


Originally Posted by GameFaq's on how to do the Glitch
It was a glitch where you have ditto transform into a smeargle that still knows sketch, then have the transformed ditto sketch a move (such as belly drum), and after the battle the ditto would still have belly drum instead of transform if you let it faint(that's the glitch part). Then use a heart scale to get transform back and repeat to have it learn another attack (such as aqua jet). Allowing ditto to learn any attack just like smeargle and pass down any number of egg move combinations.
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Here is more evidence:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ditto_%28Pok%C3%A9mon%29#Glitches


Originally Posted by Bulbapedia on above link
Another glitch allows for Ditto to transform and then permanently keep the moveset of the Pokémon it became, allowing for the passing down of previously impossible egg move combinations in a large-scale version of Smeargle's ability to do so with all Ground group Pokémon through Sketch.
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Notable things which you should take note of from this ;

Sleep Powder + Leaf Storm + Spikes Roserade

Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarril.

Hypnosis + Brave Bird + Nasty Plot Crobat

If there is any more "broken" combos, by all means post them lol

Discuss! (This Glitch is possible in early japanese D/P only, but yeah trades ftw lol).
 
I don't see the logic behind this.

From an in-game point of view, this glitch is only possible in early Japanese copies of D/P - this should be conclusive evidence to anyone that it was unintended (if anyone doubted that in the first place). Furthermore, it shows that this is just a glitch that is abusable - how is it different from, say, the "Acid Rain" glitch on Platinum cartridges? Not only is "Acid Rain" not confined to a small group, i.e. early Japanese games, but it is much more abusable than this glitch could be. If we were not to allow Acid Rain on Shoddy 2, why should we allow a glitch such as this?

Of course, from a competitive point of view, we're again not only taking what the creators intended and skewing it, but we're also creating rather broken sets that are going to be a nuisance in the future. As said in the OP, one example is Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarill that will theoretically become a centralizing threat.

To sum it up, I believe that allowing these glitch-sets on Shoddy Battle 2 is a mistake, hypocritical, and bad for the competitive community as a whole.

EDIT: Colin's response pretty much covers all I just wrote out. Thanks for the clarification Colin, context helps quite a bit.
 
The text you quoted just says it will be an option to allow trades from Japanese DP, i.e., in the challenge window.

That doesn't mean it will be part of the standard ruleset. In fact, most likely, these trades will not be allowed under the standard ruleset because the glitch can be used to obtain arbitrary movesets on any pokemon that can learn Mimic. (Originally, I was told that moves learned this way were lost upon healing, so you could use the glitch only to get arbitrary egg move combinations, but it turns out that by healing in a particular clever manner, you can keep the moves, allowing for arbitrary movesets.)

So to repeat that, allowing trades from Japanese DP allows arbitrary movesets on any pokemon that can learn Mimic, and although this will be an option in Shoddy Battle 2 (at some point; maybe not in the initial release), it will most likely not be part of the standard ruleset. Similarly, Item Clause has always been an option, yet it is not usually used in standard battles.

The Lost One said:
Furthermore, it shows that this is just a glitch that is abusable - how is it different from, say, the "Acid Rain" glitch on Platinum cartridges? Not only is "Acid Rain" not confined to a small group, i.e. early Japanese games, but it is much more abusable than this glitch could be. If we were not to allow Acid Rain on Shoddy 2, why should we allow a glitch such as this?
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Shoddy Battle 2 already has the in-game platinum weather mechanics implemented.
 
How can this Ditto Transform glitch be used to get arbitrary move sets on any Pokemon that learns Mimic?
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Mimic something, then die, recover the move and then copy and die over and over again (this is not done with ditto but with any poke with mimic).

Shoddy Battle 2 already has the in-game platinum weather mechanics implemented.
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And is this going to be an option or an obligatory thing becouse having to stand acid rain is annoying, and sometimes gamebreaking, plus it shouldn´t be happening it is just a mistake it the programming. Therefore i want to know if it is going to be an option and if it is an option wether it will be included in the standard rules
 
Little Cup has I believe decided to allow the use of the Pomeg glitch. There the practical effect is that genderless Pokemon can have their level up moves.

This breeding glitch is rather different though. The fact that it was fixed in later versions of the SAME game suggests it really wasn't intended.

One option would be to ban it in general. Another, however, might be to allow it, and any Pokemon that become broken are simply made Uber. However, since there seems to be a generalisation that allows ANY moveset on certain Pokemon, that idea isn't really going to work.

Maybe Shoddy 2 should feature 2 modes. Standard mode does not have glitches, while 'WiFi Simulation' mode matches Wi-Fi play exactly - so acid rain in, these movesets in, Platinum Formes out, no enforcement of clauses.
 
GOTO2435 said:
Mimic something, then die, recover the move and then copy and die over and over again (this is not done with ditto but with any poke with mimic).
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Can you be a little clearer?

This is what I get:
1. Mimic a move.
2. Faint while still knowing the mimicked move.
3. ???

At this point, does the fainted Pokemon keep its mimicked move, or are there other steps? What does "copy" refer to? Move Relearner?
 
The fainted Pokemon will still know the mimicked move. You can heal them by putting them in the Day Care (I believe), and they will still know the Mimiced move, thus allowing any Pokemon with mimic to learn any possible move in the game. And since Mimic was a 3rd gen tutor move, the only Pokemon with access to it are Pokemon added in the 4th gen without Preevos from the first 3 gens.
 
It might work if you made it seperate from the main metagame when Shoddy 2 comes out.
However, it has to be seperate, because otherwise you would see things that are blatantly TOO powerful.
Ex: ExtremeSpeed - Shadow Sneak (on Absol.)
Combine the two on a +Atk nature, and you have something that can ruin a good portion of the metagame.
This is just an easy, average example; others will be worse.
 
RB Golbat said:
The fainted Pokemon will still know the mimicked move. You can heal them by putting them in the Day Care (I believe), and they will still know the Mimiced move, thus allowing any Pokemon with mimic to learn any possible move in the game. And since Mimic was a 3rd gen tutor move, the only Pokemon with access to it are Pokemon added in the 4th gen without Preevos from the first 3 gens.
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You mean 'without', right? Oh, and that's not quite true; Chatot has access to it, too :P

Also, I'm sure that by using that glitch, you can only get one arbitrary move on each Pokémon, since the move replaces Mimic (meaning you can't repeat the glitch). Obviously, this is only true for those Pokémon that don't learn Mimic by level-up.

IMO, it's a bit silly to include this in Shoddy. Sure, it's in the actual games, but then in the actual games, there's a chance (albeit minuscule) that a random cosmic ray or something hits the memory chip and, say, sets all your Pokémon's stats to 999. It's extremely unlikely, but it's not hacking...
However, as long as possible to disable it, I don't really mind. I doubt people will play with that rule often anyway... It would be an interesting metagame, though :P

EDIT: Shutoku C1 Warrior, how exactly is ExtremeSpeed/Shadow Sneak Absol more powerful than, say, Endeavor/Shadow Sneak Shedinja, or Belly Drum Salamence?
 
The bottom line is that competitive game communities do not worry themselves over "developer intent", which could mean almost anything. Competitive games don't care about "glitches"; they care only about what wins, and possibly what is broken. Apparently, it's been determined that the full power of this glitch is broken, but this has nothing to do with the procedure taking advantage of a glitch. It's just like banning Ubers. There's no hypocrisy here, and the assumption that glitches are bad for a game is completely baseless. In fact, many other games became more enriched due to glitches and unintended gameplay elements.

Additionally, Shoddy Battle 2 is intended to be an exact replica of link battling in terms of observable game mechanics, so the Acid Rain glitch is there to stay.
 
Bulky Mence with Belly Drum/Dragon Claw/Roost/Fire Fang + Salac Berry would bring doom to the metagame. Damn it that set sounds real nice.
 
So, just to be clear, the Mimic glitch means that any Pokemon that learns Mimic through FRLG tutor can have 1 of its moveslots be any move in the game, and any Pokemon that learns Mimic through level-up essentially becomes Smeargle?

Head Smash Aerodactyl, Skill Swap Slaking, Volt Tackle Electivire, Anything Wigglytuff...

That actually sounds like a lot of fun.
 
don't forget Brave Bird Aerodactyl, Sacred Fire Infernape/ Flareon/ Entei, Aqua Jet + Mach Punch Belly Drum Poliwhirl, set up by a dual screen Ninjask...

but let's not theorymon here. If it's allowed in SB2, I'd def try it, but I wouldn't want it allowed in anything competitive...
 
I've been meaning to start an all-moves-on-all-Pokémon server for things like this for a while, purely because it sounds like a lot of fun and will see if some NU Pokémon like Flareon, Entei, Politoed, really are only hampered by poor movepools. As for allowing the glitch in Shoddy 2, some moves like Sacred Fire, Extremespeed, Head Smash (Marowak...) and Spore could end up being way too broken.
 
All moves on all Pokemon would probably end up being more centralised, since only stats and typing would matter. ExtremeSpeed Snorlax springs to mind as a huge threat. You'd also probably see Water Spout replace Surf on most RestTalking Waters, which would make them beastly.

Or how about a Specs Water Spout Omastar or Gorebyss in the rain? Outspeeding everything in OU but Ninjask, and hitting with a STABed, rain boosted, specs boosted, 150 base power attack off the highest non-uber water special attack stat. A monster in OU, and it would probably even be a threat in Ubers (less power than Kyogre, but much more speed).
 
Don't know if this is possible, but if Metronome selects Mimic, wouldn't that be the same thing?

This might be like the 11/11 glitch from GSC all over again.

EDIT: Darn, Metronome can't select Mimic. It can't select Sketch, Assist, Mirror Move, Copycat, etc. either.
However, would Pokemon that can learn Mirror Move, etc. also benefit from this glitch?
 
Articanus said:
don't forget Brave Bird Aerodactyl, Sacred Fire Infernape/ Flareon/ Entei, Aqua Jet + Mach Punch Belly Drum Poliwhirl, set up by a dual screen Ninjask...

but let's not theorymon here. If it's allowed in SB2, I'd def try it, but I wouldn't want it allowed in anything competitive...
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Infernape can't learn Mimic, though. Sacred Fire Entei would be epic as hell, though.

Also, is my assessment correct, or is there a way for a FRLG move tutor Mimic user to get more than one arbitrary move?
 
its too bad that this glitch leads to all these broken sets because i just wish i could use sleep powder + spikes on roserade, which isn't really broken
 
Also, is my assessment correct, or is there a way for a FRLG move tutor Mimic user to get more than one arbitrary move?
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mimic transform, do the ditto version of the glitch, presto
 
Clarification, you guys are misinterpreting this.

Not ANY MOVE.

The glitch works like a normal egg move, allowing those Pokemon who learn it legally as an egg move to learn it.

For example, a Ditto Transforms into Smeargle, and Sketches Aqua Jet, for example.

It can then go breed with a male Azumarill knowing Belly Drum, and the offspring would legally know Belly Drum + Aqua Jet.

It doesn't allow Pokemon to learn moves they cannot normally learn in any manner, it allows Pokemon to know two moves in tandem that they could not previously. Bear in mind this is only for Gen IV egg moves, not compatible with Gen III tutors + Gen IV egg moves.

Comprendes?
 
031ap said:
Clarification, you guys are misinterpreting this.

Not ANY MOVE.

The glitch works like a normal egg move, allowing those Pokemon who learn it legally as an egg move to learn it.
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I thought the Mimic Glitch, which has also been mentioned, allows any move. But it does seem like we've started discussing both, and thus getting confused.
 
Clarification, you guys are misinterpreting this.

Not ANY MOVE.
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As RBG and Colin have implied, recently it was found that you can be a bit cleverer and cause the Pokémon in question to learn ANY MOVE.

Actually, I wonder what would happpen if this were allowed only in Ubers. Oh man. The potential terror of Skill Swap Slaking and friends in Ubers is an interesting prospect. One would have to wonder what justification there would be in allowing this and still having other clauses in Ubers, though.
 
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