Should Wobuffet be allowed back in?

[Jumpman16]

I'm going to cave a little bit (you saw this coming shut up) and predict, without much context, that the Wobby/Duggy combo isn't going to be as appetizing as it was in Advance, simply because of Azelf. Have fun giving it a free Scheme when Duggy has to switch — you need Blissey, Lax or Pursuit Weavile to ensure you don't get your team swept,. These aren't exactly difficult additions to make to your team, but it's worth mentioning.

Since it coincidentally seemed to fall in so well in the linked thread above, I'm going to do it again. Of my 2004 Jolt/Espy/Starmie/Skarm/Tyra/Bliss team that I jokingly noted was somehow a team that never cared about Wobby even though it wasn't meant with it in mind, Wobby could only come in on Starmie, who could use one of its 64 Rapid Spins if Wobby really wanted to be a jerk. So it is funny to me that, of the Gyara/Hera/Tyra/Mence/Phan/Blissey DP team I posted also obviously without Wobby in mind, it only kills Salamence. I am not worried about that, and you'll see why.

Wobbuffet's EV allocation in all cases is 4HP/252Def/252SpD for 522HP and either 215 or 236 Def or SpD depending on nature, since, as the Smogon analysis says, it's better to take slightly less damage and Counter/Mirror Coat than to die and not Counter/Mirror Coat anything, even if Counter/Mirror Coat will in turn do slightly less damage.

Modest 350 Special Atack Salamence's Adherence Glasses, greatly lowered Special Attack (262) Meteoric Swarm on a Bold/Impish 522HP/215SpD Wobbuffet: 35-42%
Modest 350 Special Atack Salamence's Adherence Glasses, greatly lowered Special Attack (262) Meteoric Swarm on a Calm/Careful 522HP/236SpD Wobbuffet: 32-38%

This is something Wobbuffet is likely going to love coming in on, especially after Salamence has killed something with MS. This is the least damage AG Mence can do to it, besides Flamethrower, which does 29-34% to Calm/Careful and 32-37% to Bold/Impish. AG Mence does 71-83% to Bold/Impish and 64-76% to Calm/Careful with a full-strength Meteoric Swarm, but those numbers don't really matter all too much since Sala will rarely willingly be in on wobby at full strength. In the interests of completeness, the damage is 45-53% with Dragon Pulse on Bold/Impish, 41-49% with Calm/Careful, and with Hydro Pump it's 40-47% and 37-43%, respectively. So ok, Salamence is dead, whatever, I don't care:

Adamant, 383 Attack Heracross's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, Bold/Impish 522HP/236Def switching Wobbuffet: 54-63%
Adamant, 383 Attack Heracross's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, Calm/Careful 522HP/215Def switching Wobbuffet: 59-69%

When you consider that, by definition, Wobby will not be anywhere near 100% in this scenario, since it has to take moderate damage in order to Counter/Mirror Coat it, you are looking at a OHKOed Wobby more often than not. The least damage Wobby will have taken in the above scenario is 86%, adding the minimum damages to a Bold/Impish Wobby from Flamethrower then Pursuit.

The big question, of course, is whether or not you are ballsy enough to predict Pursuit, because obviously Megahorn destroys Wobbuffet either way. If it does predict me and stay in, Pursuit will do 27-32% to a Bold/Impish one and 30-35% to a Calm/Careful one. If it is Calm/Careful Heracross is OHKOed by Counter, but there's actually a 33.58% chance Heracross won't do enough damage to a Bold/Impish one for Counter to OHKO it at full HP (trust me lol you don't really need all the numbers).

So we're obviously talking about at least 54% damage, added to at least 32% from the weakest attack Salamence can throw at it. This is ignoring Leftovers recovery so Wobby is actually at least 12.5% of its HP better off if it manages to predict Heracross's Pursuit and stay in and kill it, and 18.75% if that takes three turns, but guess what? Still not caring. Besides the fact that the Wobbuffet user actually had to predict me to kill my Heracross, which is my and a lot of people's biggest gripe with it (meaning I can "respect" him or her more for using Wobby); we can now effectively ignore Leftovers recovery, and Wobby in general:

Adamant, 403 Attack Tyranitar's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, Bold/Impish 522HP/236Def switching Wobbuffet: 85-100%
Adamant, 403 Attack Tyranitar's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, Calm/Careful 522HP/215Def switching Wobbuffet: 93-110%


In my DP team rate I called my CB Tyranitar "1, 2 Step" (Ciara =D) because the obligatory Crunch and Stone Edge are the only two moves it's really going to use, but while I had EQ/FP as the "fillers" I can see Pursuit going over FP (even if that means as far as the ingame CB Tyra I'm currently breeding for is concerned I need to go back to the drawing board ugh). Obviously I can send in Tyra after Salamence dies and know that if it doesn't switch I'm doing 47-55% to a Calm/Careful one, and 43-50% to a Bold/Impish one, but lol hats off to you if you predict that, really. The max I can do with Stone Edge to Wobby is 68% but there's a 60% chance of that since Wobby dies to a CH (20% of the time) and and I take no damage if i miss (20% of the time), so "ok" if you want to use Wobbuffet to kill CB Tar 60% of the time as a revenge kill and I don't care about that because Dugtrio does it 100% of the time.

So that's three members, Sala Hera and Tyra. If my Donphan doesn't know Roar, it can EQ, knowing Counter can't KO it, then Knock Off Wobby's lefties, still not OHKOing itself unless it did near max damage on a Calm/Careful Wobby both times, then EQ again, leaving Wobby at under 30% HP and without Leftovers. Blissey can alternate Toss and IB just like in Advance (most Blissey won't have Thunder Wave in DP, meaning Encoring an attack doesn't mean free setup for Gablias necessarily, and Gyarados obviously owns Wobby.

Congratulations if you read all that. (hey my posts are good reference for the future even if you are tired of my tl;dr bullshit). You should still be saying "but jump, what about all the BL/UU pokemon who can't do anything to Wobbuffet? that's why he limits the metagame and makes it no fun." I agree to some extent, but I am still convinced that those same pokemon, as far as the competitive metagame is concerned, will have just as much trouble with the other huge OU threats in the same purported tier as Wobbuffet. Oh, and in general, I don't really care if Wobby takes out exactly one pokemon, as Mekkah is stating is reason enough to worry about it, and the above is indication enough.

haha this actually started out brief believe it or not

 

[Hyra]

Hm... Jumpman, it just took you at least half of your team to make up for that Wobuffet kill. Comes in and kills AGMence, predicts Heracross and OHKO's, and then it requires TTar to kill. Donphan can be beat, as can Blissey (Encore Softboiled). I will agree that's it's not as broken as in ADV, but it limits most of the new items(excluding Beatufil Skin). AS Cross/Cham/Anything is easily killed by Wobuffet. CB/AG pokes without an SE attack also eat wobbie. Sure, there can be a good metagame with Wobuffet, I just prefer one without it.

 

[lilyhollow]

The question I have is: who actually cares enough about Wob to want to risk screwing with the metagame just so it can exist? What does it bring to the table, and, more importantly, is that more than what it can potentially take away?

 

[Jibaku]

Jumpman, where did you awesome Teddiursa sig go? I miss it badly.

As for Wobba, I honestly think that this should be tested. Wobbuffet can be countered by prediction actually. It's not as durable as people think. It can be a pain to fight, though. With Attackers now reaching a point of power, Wobba might not actually be very good at all.

On the other hand I fear Dugtrio more.

I'm not saying let's outright unban Wobba right into standard, and I still believe that Wobba has a degree of uberness at times, but I'm saying that it isn't as threatening as it used to be.

 

[Phuquoph]

How will this be decided? A poll of all forum members or just the Competitor/Smogon admins?

 

[evolutia]

I really don't think a poll would be effective untill Wobbuffet is tested in the d/p enviroment, after a given amount of time perhaps a debate should be in order about Wobbuffet's effect on the meta-game and what a meta-game with out Wobbuffet would be like. Then decide if it should be uber or not.

 

[chewy]

The question I have is: who actually cares enough about Wob to want to risk screwing with the metagame just so it can exist? What does it bring to the table, and, more importantly, is that more than what it can potentially take away?

Your questions are exactly what we need to test out. Although we can't all be like Jumpman and create teams that 'accidently' counter Wobby, it should be a poke everyone takes into consideration when making a team, just like Skarmbliss, Duggie, etc in this metagame. The 'I'm too lazy to think about dealing with it' argument doesn't cut it. If you like to metagame as it is, stick to the RSE boards.

Please, for Aruseus' sake, Stop calling things like Somersault and certain Pokemon sets (especially overspecialized ones like a Goku with 2 Fire moves) counters. If it were that simple it would've been allowed, but as it stands, Wobbuffet requires your ENTIRE team to have Beautiful Skin, Baton Pass, Teleport or Somersault (or something I missed) to actually switch into it. If it can't do that, it's not a counter.

BTW mekkah, I'm pretty sure dual attacking Infernape is very much possible without being overspecialized. It destroys skarmbliss as well and using a scheme/swords dance will mislead the other player to using a special/physical wall. It's versatility against physical and special walls (w/o having to explode like azelf) is its main asset, not its sweeping ability.

Speaking of sweeping ability, I enjoy analyzing your beautifully thought out teams built for 6-0ing as much as the next netbattler/future competitor...er, but, Wobby is no way in hell going to sweep teams and probably won't make it to the end of the game in most, considering its purpose.

I see it mostly as a poke that assasinates certain pokes that would prove a threat, just as duggie did (I always named my duggies assasin =). Again, in this gen, it will probably have the defense to kill one poke. It's EV's allow it to chose between handling strong Atks or Atks, but mixing would prove less useful in handling the strongest of them or switching in on 2+ Atk/SAtkers.

As much as I enjoy watching two teams sending their highest atk, highest spd pokes duke it out, Wobby adds strategic elements in being able to chose which poke you are weakest against (that doesn't have Wobby countering moves) and taking it out.

I really don't think a poll would be effective untill Wobbuffet is tested in the d/p enviroment, after a given amount of time perhaps a debate should be in order about Wobbuffet's effect on the meta-game and what a meta-game with out Wobbuffet would be like. Then decide if it should be uber or not.

If I haven't said it before, I'll say it now, AGREED.

 

[Phuquoph]

Testing it still requires it to be allowed in the first place and still brings up the question "who decides?".

An initial poll now might not be the best idea as there's still going to be people screaming "fuck that, Wobby is gay!" on one side and "I hate all clauses" on the other. How many people read every word of every post in this thread before posting their opinions?

Most of you, I would hope. Still, I'd bet a good portion just skimmed over a lot of the well thought arguments on both sides, picking out only the posts that backed their own opinions.

Personally, I think that the longer the debate continues in this thread the more likely it is that a poll will be effective. Not to change people's minds either way, but to bring themselves to a point where they can approach a possible test with an open mind. Basing their decision only on Wobb's impact - or lack thereof - and not on preconceived notions. That goes for both sides of the argument.

 

[Jibaku]

Who decides?
The people. You then put up a poll and asking everybody with their Wobbuffet experiences

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm going to cave a little bit (you saw this coming shut up) and predict, without much context, that the Wobby/Duggy combo isn't going to be as appetizing as it was in Advance, simply because of Azelf. Have fun giving it a free Scheme when Duggy has to switch — you need Blissey, Lax or Pursuit Weavile to ensure you don't get your team swept,. These aren't exactly difficult additions to make to your team, but it's worth mentioning.

Or.... CB Crunch Aero, Timid AG Starmie, Timid Max SA Leaf Storm Sceptile, SDef oriented Yonowaaru with Shadow Punch, ASCross, Scissor Cross Ninjask, and for effect, LOL CB Crunch Girafarig (it survives Schemed HP Fite with 3% left at Max damage). Azelf has crap defense, and is screwed against anything faster with a powerful attack. Really, Azelf is the new Gaburiasu when it comes to hype. "ON NOEZ A SWEEP COMETH! ... Oh wait, stuff that is faster than me owns me, just like Gabby!"

 

[pkmn Trainer Zach]

For the love of God, people, stop bitching about Wobbuffet. It shouldn't be banned in D/P. Wobbuffet can now be countered. I seriously don't understand why you would have to have five Beautiful Skins just to stop one Pokémon.

Ban Galbias then. I don't want to have to put Ice Beam or an Ice attack on my Pokémon just because of one freaking Pokémon.

Please read that sentence again. That sounds like whining, doesn't it? Its really annoying, right? Well, that's what a lot of you are doing.

Wobuffet can be countered now, even if it may take a couple of Pokémon to do it. Jesus Christ, a lot of top OU Pokémon need at least two Pokémon to guarentee that the opposing Pokémon gets taken down.

As much respect as I have for some of you guys, this really sounds like a ton of shit. You guys are having 'Nam flashbacks, where just the thoughts of Wobbuffet bring you back to Advance battles before it was banned.

And to take this even a step further...

This is also why you should allow OHKOs and Double Team. Not just because of Wobbuffet, but because it will create a sense of balance in the game. Once you start banning shit, the whole system goes out of whack. Not being able to use Evasion-raising moves and OHKOs because they are "cheap" and "reqire no skill" is the biggest bunch of shit I've ever heard. If you are skilled, counter it. OHKOs and Evasion-raising moves can be a counter to Wobbuffet, if you LET them!

And for all you anti-Evasion people, why not go ahead and ban Hail/Snowstorm in combo with Snow Hide and Sandstorm/Sandstream in combo with Sand Veil? No Tyranitar and Galbias on the same team. How 'bout that?

Seriously, people, if you think you can design the game better, write Gamefreak. Just stop the totally useless bitching and get the fuck over it.

*waits patiently for flames*

 

[chewy]

And to take this even a step further...

This is also why you should allow OHKOs and Double Team. Not just because of Wobbuffet, but because it will create a sense of balance in the game. Once you start banning shit, the whole system goes out of whack. Not being able to use Evasion-raising moves and OHKOs because they are "cheap" and "reqire no skill" is the biggest bunch of shit I've ever heard. If you are skilled, counter it. OHKOs and Evasion-raising moves can be a counter to Wobbuffet, if you LET them!

And for all you anti-Evasion people, why not go ahead and ban Hail/Snowstorm in combo with Snow Hide and Sandstorm/Sandstream in combo with Sand Veil? No Tyranitar and Galbias on the same team. How 'bout that?

Seriously, people, if you think you can design the game better, write Gamefreak. Just stop the totally useless bitching and get the fuck over it.

*waits patiently for flames*

That's an argument that needs a new thread, try staying on topic plz. I've been in games where all my pokes were killed by 1HKOs so very much no. If you enjoy mindlessly rolling a three sided dice, then maybe 1HKO is for you.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

For the love of God, people, stop bitching about Wobbuffet. It shouldn't be banned in D/P. Wobbuffet can now be countered. I seriously don't understand why you would have to have five Beautiful Skins just to stop one Pokémon.

Ban Galbias then. I don't want to have to put Ice Beam or an Ice attack on my Pokémon just because of one freaking Pokémon.

Please read that sentence again. That sounds like whining, doesn't it? Its really annoying, right? Well, that's what a lot of you are doing.

Wobuffet can be countered now, even if it may take a couple of Pokémon to do it. Jesus Christ, a lot of top OU Pokémon need at least two Pokémon to guarentee that the opposing Pokémon gets taken down.

As much respect as I have for some of you guys, this really sounds like a ton of shit. You guys are having 'Nam flashbacks, where just the thoughts of Wobbuffet bring you back to Advance battles before it was banned.

And to take this even a step further...

This is also why you should allow OHKOs and Double Team. Not just because of Wobbuffet, but because it will create a sense of balance in the game. Once you start banning shit, the whole system goes out of whack. Not being able to use Evasion-raising moves and OHKOs because they are "cheap" and "reqire no skill" is the biggest bunch of shit I've ever heard. If you are skilled, counter it. OHKOs and Evasion-raising moves can be a counter to Wobbuffet, if you LET them!

And for all you anti-Evasion people, why not go ahead and ban Hail/Snowstorm in combo with Snow Hide and Sandstorm/Sandstream in combo with Sand Veil? No Tyranitar and Galbias on the same team. How 'bout that?

Seriously, people, if you think you can design the game better, write Gamefreak. Just stop the totally useless bitching and get the fuck over it.

*waits patiently for flames*

ok, i agree with everything you said EXCEPT the part about alowing double team. here is a possible to counter wobbufett, you may not all agree, but here it is!

Smeargle @ Focus Strip
-Spore
-Spider Web, or some trapping move
-any sp.atk/atk stat raising move that doesnt involve speed/Leech Seed
-B-Pass
Jolly@ 176 spd, 252 hp, 76 def

it could get speed from somewhere like a ninjask, or anything that b-passes agility

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I know I can design the game better. Why do you think I operate a modded database server? Writing Gamefreak would be obviously useless, though if they offered me a job designing Pokemon games I'd happily accept(odds of that happening: 0%).

I agree that some of the arguments made against commonly banned things are dumb, but the problem is that there are legitimate arguments around too. Yeah, no one intelligent cares if it takes skill to use or not, and the question is really whether it's broken. I don't think that being inflammatory is going to work out, and I don't think that trying to default to Gamefreak for rules is the best idea either. Remember, these are the guys that thought Chansey needed to evolve more than Farfetch'd.

I agree strongly with letting everything have its test(I have made this argument in the past about testing everything), and Wobbuffet certainly deserves a test. I think the "if 5 of your Pokemon counter Wobbuffet and one doesn't you lose to Wobbuffet" argument is wrong since you just have to predict Wobbuffet and never leave that one Pokemon in when Wobbuffet it coming in. The consequences of screwing up aren't really greater than screwing up a prediction with any other Pokemon either; you lose a Pokemon and/or give them some free set-up(I really thought ttar was going to Stone Edge so I sent in my Claydol...). Wobbuffet certainly does still seem to be a good Pokemon, but I'm not so sure that it's still broken. People seem intent on pointing out that Wobbuffet always gets one Pokemon. That's fine. Unless you screw up, each of your Pokemon should be getting one Pokemon. That's equality, and if done to the logical extreme, it makes matches go from 6-6 to 0-0 with the extra Pokemon that gives someone a win coming as a product of the better play(or perhaps luck). Where is the theorycraft that Wobbuffet is getting two Pokemon? That's what it would need to be broken.

So ultimately, I (unsurprisingly) join the ranks of "let's ban as little as possible and test as much as possible, including Wobbuffet". It's a cool enough design that we owe it that much at least.

 

[x099x]

I'm all for Wobbuffet being tested in DP, but you can bet that I'm not going to be participating in it. Despite all of this, I do personally think he is broken and will stay banned, as should Double Team and OHKOs.

 

[Jumpman16]

Hm... Jumpman, it just took you at least half of your team to make up for that Wobuffet kill. Comes in and kills AGMence, predicts Heracross and OHKO's, and then it requires TTar to kill. Donphan can be beat, as can Blissey (Encore Softboiled). I will agree that's it's not as broken as in ADV, but it limits most of the new items(excluding Beatufil Skin). AS Cross/Cham/Anything is easily killed by Wobuffet. CB/AG pokes without an SE attack also eat wobbie. Sure, there can be a good metagame with Wobuffet, I just prefer one without it.

It actually "takes" zero additional pokemon after it kills AG Mence if I actually Megahorn instead, which I am at full liberty to do considering it's a free hit for me. And you can't beat Blissey by Encoring Softboiled, you just force it to switch after you switch (which you likely will because you're slower) and there's a difference. But that's not really the argument, as there are indeed a shitload of other pokemon that are threatened by Wobbuffet. I just don't think we know what the difference between the threat pokes like Gablias and Azelf will pose and the threat that Wobbuffet will pose, and whether one is "worse" than the other.

I do agree with your last three sentences, I would probably actually prefer a metagame without Wobbuffet. But I would prefer one without Dugtrio as well, and I just don't think we know yet the extent to which it will impact the new DP metagame.

Jumpman, where did you awesome Teddiursa sig go? I miss it badly.

Haha, well while wasn't really tired of it per sé, I figured that there was at least one of you out there who told him- or herself "man jumps sig is pretty big =/" so I decided to change it.

Or.... CB Crunch Aero, Timid AG Starmie, Timid Max SA Leaf Storm Sceptile, SDef oriented Yonowaaru with Shadow Punch, ASCross, Scissor Cross Ninjask, and for effect, LOL CB Crunch Girafarig (it survives Schemed HP Fite with 3% left at Max damage). Azelf has crap defense, and is screwed against anything faster with a powerful attack. Really, Azelf is the new Gaburiasu when it comes to hype. "ON NOEZ A SWEEP COMETH! ... Oh wait, stuff that is faster than me owns me, just like Gabby!"

Or I could just attack straight up, much in the same way anytime Gyarados or Tyranitar *can* DD, or Weavile and Gablias *can* SD doesn't mean they have to. It was just an example of a pokemon being in the driver's seat its foe was just forced to vacate — I'm pretty sure I can pull a few dozen more out of my ass but then we may as well actually be playing pokemon! (By the way Girafarig would be Flamethrowered for the OHKO and Timid AG Starmie can't OHKO with Surf almost 90% of the time against 301HP/176SpD Azelf =D.)

 

[Xenesis]

Doesn't a Stealth Rock crap on Wobby's Trap, Encore and Switch tactic anyhow?

 

[BAM33]

I dont think it should be allowed back in. It causes to many draws. I dont think Stealth Rock would do that much to it. I think that Wobba is cheap because it can counter ALMOST anything, and win.

 

[Heist.]

Haha, well while wasn't really tired of it per sé, I figured that there was at least one of you out there who told him- or herself "man jumps sig is pretty big =/" so I decided to change it.

It really lagged my page when scrolling over it, too. Stoopid IE. =\