Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread (read the op before posting a thread)

Is Blaziken Uber even if he doesn't have Speed Boost? I wanted to use him on an OU team with Blaze, but he was still banned. I thought sometimes pokemon are re-tiered if they do not use the ability that made them broken in the first place.
Smogon strays away from complex bans, and looks at the whole Pokemon when deciding to ban something. Banning part of a Pokemon only happens on rare occasions, and when it happens, it applies to all Pokemon, not just the one mon (for example, Arena Trap).

Because Speed Boost isn't banned on all Pokemon, and because it would be absurd to ban Speed Boost just to make Blaziken not broken, Blaziken remains banned.
 
Smogon strays away from complex bans, and looks at the whole Pokemon when deciding to ban something. Banning part of a Pokemon only happens on rare occasions, and when it happens, it applies to all Pokemon, not just the one mon (for example, Arena Trap).

Because Speed Boost isn't banned on all Pokemon, and because it would be absurd to ban Speed Boost just to make Blaziken not broken, Blaziken remains banned.
That makes sense. Thanks for the help.
 
Hey is the odds for the amount of sleep turns you have when you get slept by spore or something the same? For example are you just as likely to sleep 1 turn (33%) as you are to sleep 3 turns? Or are there unequal odds for getting longer sleep amounts? I feel like the odds are even but I'm not sure
 
Hey is the odds for the amount of sleep turns you have when you get slept by spore or something the same? For example are you just as likely to sleep 1 turn (33%) as you are to sleep 3 turns? Or are there unequal odds for getting longer sleep amounts? I feel like the odds are even but I'm not sure
Equal odds.
 
I have a question about Smogon's banning philosophy. If Smogon bans abilities that are broken (Moody, Shadow Tag), I'm curious about the state of other broken abilities (Protean, Huge Power, Tinted Lens, basically abilities that are almost always banned in AAA, Balanced Hackmons, etc.).

Huge Power is an obviously broken ability, but it's given to Pokémon with terrible stats (Mega Mawile, Azu, Mega Medi) strong enough to make most of them at the very least BL. Yet it is still not banned because the right Pokémon don't have them. Are you just waiting for Huge Power to have a good enough distribution to just ban the ability (ex. if 20+ Pokémon with good stat distribution like Weavile, Aerodactyl, Metagross, Infernape, etc. suddently get Huge Power)? If that's the case, I wonder why Pokémon like Gothita, Wobuffet, Trapinch and Diglett are still banned. Are they really that unmanageable with Shadow Tag/Arena Trap since they are way less efficient than other Shadow Tag/Arena Trap Pokémon.
 
Trapinch and Diglett
I can't speak for the other trappers, as I wasn't around when Shadow Tag was banned, but early in SM, Dugtrio (not Arena Trap) was suspected, and people legitimately used Diglett to decent effect. Diglett still OHKO'd Heatran. It still did a ton to Lele and Pex with Tectonic Rage, and speed tied with the former. Dugtrio was ultimately decided to not be banworthy the first time around, but several months later, Arena Trap was suspected and deemed uncompetitive, and thus was banned.
 
I have a question about Smogon's banning philosophy. If Smogon bans abilities that are broken (Moody, Shadow Tag), I'm curious about the state of other broken abilities (Protean, Huge Power, Tinted Lens, basically abilities that are almost always banned in AAA, Balanced Hackmons, etc.).

Huge Power is an obviously broken ability, but it's given to Pokémon with terrible stats (Mega Mawile, Azu, Mega Medi) strong enough to make most of them at the very least BL. Yet it is still not banned because the right Pokémon don't have them. Are you just waiting for Huge Power to have a good enough distribution to just ban the ability (ex. if 20+ Pokémon with good stat distribution like Weavile, Aerodactyl, Metagross, Infernape, etc. suddently get Huge Power)? If that's the case, I wonder why Pokémon like Gothita, Wobuffet, Trapinch and Diglett are still banned. Are they really that unmanageable with Shadow Tag/Arena Trap since they are way less efficient than other Shadow Tag/Arena Trap Pokémon.
Like DrPumpkinz said, Arena Trap and Shadow Tag were banned in their entirety because their trapping capabilities were deemed uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame. Huge/Pure Power is strong but not uncompetitive so there's no reason to ban the ability entirely, even if a broken Pokémon gets it.
 
I have a question about Smogon's banning philosophy. If Smogon bans abilities that are broken (Moody, Shadow Tag), I'm curious about the state of other broken abilities (Protean, Huge Power, Tinted Lens, basically abilities that are almost always banned in AAA, Balanced Hackmons, etc.).

Huge Power is an obviously broken ability, but it's given to Pokémon with terrible stats (Mega Mawile, Azu, Mega Medi) strong enough to make most of them at the very least BL. Yet it is still not banned because the right Pokémon don't have them. Are you just waiting for Huge Power to have a good enough distribution to just ban the ability (ex. if 20+ Pokémon with good stat distribution like Weavile, Aerodactyl, Metagross, Infernape, etc. suddently get Huge Power)? If that's the case, I wonder why Pokémon like Gothita, Wobuffet, Trapinch and Diglett are still banned. Are they really that unmanageable with Shadow Tag/Arena Trap since they are way less efficient than other Shadow Tag/Arena Trap Pokémon.
To my knowledge, moody was banned because it can raise your evasion. As for protean, pure/huge power, and tinted lens, these abilities are not broken in standard play, the reason they are banned in AAA (tinted lens isn't btw) is because ANY Pokemon can run the ability. The mons that get pure/huge power are balanced, and no I don't think anyone is "waiting for pure power pokemon to come out" so it can be banned.
The community is pretty split on the subject of arena trap and shadow tag. People in support of banning the abilities have historically said that the only counter play to trapping abilities is running a team is not weak to them (which in turn constricts team building) and that when you are trapped you literally cannot do anything.
The BW OU community is debating shadow tag literally at this current moment here and here and as you can tell it can get quite heated and people have wildly different opinions (some say Gothitelle is terrible, others say she is too good).
To try and answer why diglett, gothita etc are banned when shadow tag/arena trap is banned, and not just the main users. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not incredibly knowledgeable on this topic) I believe it has to do with something called complex banning, so if Shadow Tag is banned on June 24th Gothitelle, Gothorita, Gothita, and Wobbuffet would be banned, even though the pre evos are hardly ever used, and wobbuffet is extremely niche and rare. Hopefully I answered your question Tacotaco , its a very complex topic tbh. One last thing, like DrPumpkinz said, when Dugtrio was originally banned, Diglett was used and still trapped important targets, not just in SM, but also in BW, so eventually the ability as a whole was banned.
:psywoke:
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
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An ability can only be broken if it makes a pokemon with it broken. The only things we measure as broken are pokemon. Huge Power isn’t broken because it’s not a pokemon. We can ban abilities that make numerous pokemon broken if we suspect them to be the root cause, but claiming any ability that is not making any pokemon broken as broken itself is not something we recognize as there’s no basis for that claim and if causes nothing to be broken.
 
How can one check the following Heatran set?

Heatran @ firium z
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

I find this set almost impossible to check without letting it get rocks up, and even then, it'll probably cripple your check. As for Pokemon that can prevent or remove rocks... Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Magma Storm after trapping damage; Gliscor is OHKOed by Inferno Overdrive; Moltres is crippled by toxic, after which it can't pressure stall Heatran, and any cleric will be trapped and stalled out (and let rocks up); mew gets trapped and stalled out as well, and can't even punish Heatran with synchronize (even if you have EQ, it'll still cripple you with toxic); Fini has no form of reliable recovery, making it easily worn down; and pretty much any other Pokemon that can take Magma Storm well (Salamence, Dragonite, Mantine, etc.) is again crippled by toxic. If you try to be patient, forcing Heatran out (with Mew's EQ, for example), you're going to take too much residual damage, and you won't be able to heal bell enough times to pp stall toxic.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU Forum Leader
How can one check the following Heatran set?

Heatran @ firium z
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

I find this set almost impossible to check without letting it get rocks up, and even then, it'll probably cripple your check. As for Pokemon that can prevent or remove rocks... Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Magma Storm after trapping damage; Gliscor is OHKOed by Inferno Overdrive; Moltres is crippled by toxic, after which it can't pressure stall Heatran, and any cleric will be trapped and stalled out (and let rocks up); mew gets trapped and stalled out as well, and can't even punish Heatran with synchronize (even if you have EQ, it'll still cripple you with toxic); Fini has no form of reliable recovery, making it easily worn down; and pretty much any other Pokemon that can take Magma Storm well (Salamence, Dragonite, Mantine, etc.) is again crippled by toxic. If you try to be patient, forcing Heatran out (with Mew's EQ, for example), you're going to take too much residual damage, and you won't be able to heal bell enough times to pp stall toxic.
well, you lack Earth Power, so opposing Heatran would probably do the trick.
 
How can one check the following Heatran set?

Heatran @ firium z
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

I find this set almost impossible to check without letting it get rocks up, and even then, it'll probably cripple your check. As for Pokemon that can prevent or remove rocks... Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Magma Storm after trapping damage; Gliscor is OHKOed by Inferno Overdrive; Moltres is crippled by toxic, after which it can't pressure stall Heatran, and any cleric will be trapped and stalled out (and let rocks up); mew gets trapped and stalled out as well, and can't even punish Heatran with synchronize (even if you have EQ, it'll still cripple you with toxic); Fini has no form of reliable recovery, making it easily worn down; and pretty much any other Pokemon that can take Magma Storm well (Salamence, Dragonite, Mantine, etc.) is again crippled by toxic. If you try to be patient, forcing Heatran out (with Mew's EQ, for example), you're going to take too much residual damage, and you won't be able to heal bell enough times to pp stall toxic.
Hello, Tapu Fini and other fat waters will do the trick here, as they are bulky enough to switch into this heatran set especially. Toxapex, Tapu Fini and as Finchinator mentioned above, opposing Heatran due to the lack of E-Power.
Faster offensive mons like Ash Greninja, Mega Diancie and other Rock Types like Ttar or Mega Ttar are able to come in on this set and scare Heatran out very easily due to its lack of catching them upon switchin with Earth Power or the lesser used Flash Cannon.
Mega Zam could also check it and burn out its Z-Move due to Tracing Flash Fire, so Heatrans Inferno Overdrives gets easily burneed out by Mega Zam.
Also bulky Dragon Types like Garchomp, mega Garchomp and Hydreigon can tank a Z-Inferno usually pretty well and scare it out due to being faster than Heatran. Mega Latias/Mega Latios can also check this Heatran set pretty well. In overall a Heatran which lacks its other STAB in Flash Cannon or lacks a coverage option has a lot of trouble going past the mons, it could whittle down with Earth Power / Flash Cannon.
 
To my knowledge, moody was banned because it can raise your evasion. As for protean, pure/huge power, and tinted lens, these abilities are not broken in standard play, the reason they are banned in AAA (tinted lens isn't btw) is because ANY Pokemon can run the ability. The mons that get pure/huge power are balanced, and no I don't think anyone is "waiting for pure power pokemon to come out" so it can be banned.
The community is pretty split on the subject of arena trap and shadow tag. People in support of banning the abilities have historically said that the only counter play to trapping abilities is running a team is not weak to them (which in turn constricts team building) and that when you are trapped you literally cannot do anything.
The BW OU community is debating shadow tag literally at this current moment here and here and as you can tell it can get quite heated and people have wildly different opinions (some say Gothitelle is terrible, others say she is too good).
To try and answer why diglett, gothita etc are banned when shadow tag/arena trap is banned, and not just the main users. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not incredibly knowledgeable on this topic) I believe it has to do with something called complex banning, so if Shadow Tag is banned on June 24th Gothitelle, Gothorita, Gothita, and Wobbuffet would be banned, even though the pre evos are hardly ever used, and wobbuffet is extremely niche and rare. Hopefully I answered your question Tacotaco , its a very complex topic tbh. One last thing, like DrPumpkinz said, when Dugtrio was originally banned, Diglett was used and still trapped important targets, not just in SM, but also in BW, so eventually the ability as a whole was banned.
:psywoke:
Is Diglett trapping important targets really a good argument? What differentiates it from Magnezone, who also traps other important targets? Diglett can only reliably trap Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill without sand, Magearna without speed boost or Shuca, Magnezone not behind sub, and the very uncommon Muk-A and Nidoking (I'm assuming Diglett is either Sash or Z as it can't OHKO any Pokémon not x4 weak to it without 2 EQs or a Z-EQ and gets OHKOed in return). I could understand why Dugtrio left as it could trap every ground-weak Pokémon slower than it plus Chansey, Lele, Medicham and Hoopa and Kyurem with the right set, which is only made easier with Eject Button. On the other hand, Diglett fails to outspeed Diancie and Victini (without enough speed drops). Chansey is also too bulky to trap. It also can't kill Hoopa unless it's -1. SpDef Toxapex OHKOs with Scald and has regenerator, or can just Recover on the turn of the Z-Move until it's at a decent help to OHKO with Scald. Mawile has to play mind games on Z-sets with sub, but if it gets the prediction right, it OHKOs Diglett. Same for Jirachi with Protect. Plus, Diglett can only come aftering sacking a Pokémon and becomes useless after taking out the Pokémon, essentially making you lose two Pokémon just to kill (or have a chance to kill) one crucial Pokémon. There's also Eject Button, but again you could only reliably trap 5 OU Pokémon while having to preserve your Eject Button. Trapinch and other weaker Shadow Tag users has its own fair share of strenghts that allows it to trap some Pokémon Diglett can't, but also loses out to others.

I would appreciate replays or posts where those Pokémon I mentioned did something that shows them being broken rather than them just trapping the Pokémon they are meant to trap like Magnezone. Most posts that I could find only talks about how Dugtrio and/or Gothitelle are broken, but their justification for banning Diglett and friends is merely "they could still trap the key targets" without bothering to expound on it.

Sorry if my questions seem stupid, I'm just really trying to find consistency with the bans. The way I understand it, for something to be banned, that something must be broken (or whatever appropriate term you want to call it) on that specific metagame, which is probably Arena Trap is allowed on Ubers as the Pokémon there can be too much for Dugtrio to handle, or why Mega Houndoom was banned from UU when Drought was allowed but unbanned when Drought was banned. This is also why abilities commonly banned on OM's like Huge Power, Wonder Guard, or Imposter are banned on other metagames but allowed on standard play as the Pokémon that have the ability are balanced out by terrible stats and/or moves, which leads me back to my previous question on why Diglett and friends are banned. Why can't Smogon just ban Dugtrio and Gothitelle (maybe its entire evolutionary line) as Diglett and friends aren't as broken as the other Duggy and Gothitelle (unless someome gives me a good argument for my first paragraph and show replays or posts where Diglett and friends did something that shows them being broken).
 

Mannat

is a Tutoris a Community Contributor
Won SPL Predictions
Is it mandatory to run a hazard remover on every team? (Including HO)

Also is it important to run a volturn pivot on offense teams?
Nothing is mandatory in SM OU, you just have to decide whether or not you need certain things depending on the team structure.

I oftentimes end up dropping Defog on certain balance builds that stock mons that don't care about hazards as much like regen mons, clef, glisc, etc and instead focus on just stacking my own hazards and winning the up vs up battle, but other teams that rely on things like Magearna and Garchomp to hold the team together rather than say Celesteela and Gliscor obviously are gonna need more robust hazard removal options.

On the other hand, you never really need to focus on having a certain number of voltturn pivots or whatever on offensive teams. It's obviously better to try and find a way to fit in voltturners if you're building with big breakers like Medicham, but you should never go out of your way to include them potentially at the cost of the time. While this is true, that isn't to say that you can just slap passive mons on offensive teams and expect them to work, voltturners are good on bulky offenses because they flow together and play off the other mons on these teams well. When I build, I focus on thinking about how Pokemon play off each other in the actual games rather than trying to come up with a team that can beat everything in the tier, as those types of teams oftentimes end up getting stretched too thin and don't actually work nearly as well in game execution than they do on paper.

Not really a simple answer but hope it helped :]
 
Tacotaco here is a video by njnp, I recommend you watch the whole video because it would help with understanding the concept of bans in general. If you just wish to here about shadow tag and arena trap skip to around 11:50ish. The video explains why smogon generally doesn't like doing what they call "complex bans" which pretty much goes with the trapinch/diglett/gothita thing.

Here are some gen 5 calcs for diglett
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (112.6 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (94.5 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 472-556 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 472-556 (116.8 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 384-454 (106 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see, even a measly diglett can easily put in a lot of work against major threats. Dugtrio and diglett were a lot of times used on sun teams, you could easily lure heatran with Forretress, volt switch out into diglett, and thats bye bye heatran. Diglett can also use toxic against mons it would normally not be able to touch like Hippowdon (the best weather setter to deal with diglett).

What makes Magnezone/magneton different is that they can only trap one type, arena trap/shadow tag mons are able to always do something to your opponent (toxic/suicide chip damage) and their is nothing you can do about it once your trapped. Arena trap can trap all non levitaters and ghost types (shadow tag can trap levitaters if im not mistaken, but not ghost types like arena trap). In USUM ubers, Gothorita is even used because of its better bulk with an eviolite than gothitelle (it traps different targets due to it being a little beefier, but no leftovers recovery).

All in all the topic of trapping abilities and banning things can be pretty confusing, hopefuly I answered your question the best I could.
 
Thats 4 mons, magnezone also traps four mons efficiently (celesteela, ferrothorn, scizor and skarm. And non uturn jirachi can eventually lose to paras) which are just as important glues to the team just like ttar and heatran

And is magnezone is not totally useless outside of trapping either, it can soft check quite a few mons in pinsir, koko, lele, fini..etc) and is actually pretty difficult to switch into in general due to its decent offensive typing backed with its 394 spa.

It also can cripple checks it cant beat with toxic or volt switch out of them as well so thats some even more utility.

It supports braindead cores just like diglett could support but this time its just lele/zam offense or dragmag in gen 5 instead of zard y offense

There are so many parallels between magnezone and other trappers i reallly dont know why hes excused.

"Its just one type" isnt really a justification considering the amount of mons it traps is just as much as trapinch and diglett. Its still an inheretly uncompetitive abiliy

Will magnet pull only be banned once we have a trapper that reliably beats every teams steel glue?
 
LordHelix I think your missing the point here. Arena Trap and shadow tag constrict team building, the only "counterplay" to those abilities is to not run a team that is weak to them. Some teams can just get inherently destroyed if they are weak to the abilities. I named 4 mons that, diglett an unevolved mon, ohkoes. Obviously it does more than just that (obviously much less than dugtrio).

I'm going to take the direct quote from the counters and checks section of BW Gothitelle
So you want to counter Gothitelle? First of all, get your priorities straight.


In order to actually "counter" something by definition, a Pokemon must be able to switch in safely. Thanks to Shadow Tag, this is pretty much impossible without the use of a switching move or the rare Shed Shell. Even then, good players can choose to simply avoid--if not straight-out destroy--threats using such tactics, and Shed Shell itself is relatively nonexistent save for several Steel-types. Nonetheless, Gothitelle's weakness to U-turn is hard to ignore. Even a non-STAB U-turn will deal a decent amount of damage to him, and because a different Pokemon will switch in the process, Gothitelle will have to adapt heavily depending on the situation. Scizor is particularly dangerous in this respect, since it boasts a powerful STAB U-turn, in addition to Pursuit, that could fatally KO provided Gothitelle lacks Hidden Power Fire, proper Speed investment, or some Calm Mind boosts. Volt Switch and Baton Pass users can also switch out safely to a reliable check or counter.
I disagree that Magnet pull has many parallels with the other trapping abilities, yes they are similar in concept, but arena trap and shadow tag are so so so much better (hence why they are banned in so many generations).

I also disagree that zone has more utility than dugtrio, just because it has toxic doesnt mean its good on the mon. Zone heavily relies on tbolt,hpfire,voltswitch, and flash cannon. Very very very rarely would you use something else (like Luigi using sub charge beam in finals of smogon tour). Zone gets popped by the myriad of mons running hp fire, ground types, and fighting types, in every generation. If you wanna run hp ice to hit the grounds or hp gorund for tran your losing out on hp fire which is huge and it loses a lot of its niche. Magnezone is extremely slow and it only traps steels. Its incredibly easy to switch into magnezone because your gonna have a ground type on majority of teams. Magnet pull is nowhere near as centralizing as shadow tag or arena trap, if it was, it would be banned.

The fact that ttar would run shed shell just for dugtrio and diglett jsut shows you how overcentralizing they were. You miss out so much if not running chople, band, or scarf (especially chople) but they would still run it sometimes because of how broken Dug was. Dugtrio would be used a lot on sun teams, and if dugtrio (or yes even diglett) is able to take out tyranitar and win the weather war, that is HUGE.

"Its just one type" isnt really a justification considering the amount of mons it traps is just as much as trapinch and diglett. Its still an inheretly uncompetitive abiliy
Diglett traps every pokemon except ghosts and flying/levitaters, and can do some sort of damage/ toxic them, alongside ohkoing the previously mentioned top tier pokemon.

EDIT: Magnezone has a lot of competition from other pokemon in ou, yes, it has a high special attack stat. However, Magearna has the same stats or higher in every single stat, has a better typing, and is more unpredictable, because we all know the reason your running magnezone. So,tbh, zone has good stats but its outclassed in basically every way by magearna except for the fact that it has an amazing ability.
 
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The fact that ttar would run shed shell just for dugtrio and diglett jsut shows you how overcentralizing they were. You miss out so much if not running chople, band, or scarf (especially chople) but they would still run it sometimes because of how broken Dug was. Dugtrio would be used a lot on sun teams, and if dugtrio (or yes even diglett) is able to take out tyranitar and win the weather war, that is HUGE.
This argument is not good.
2 years ago, Dugtrio was the 5th pokemon the most played in OU. And no one using Shed Shell on Tyranitar against Dugtrio.( https://porydex.quinlancircle.com/stats/2017-07/gen-7-ou/1825/items/shed-shell )
The presence of Magnezone in OU restricts the object of Skarmory like the presence of Dugtrio/Diglett restricted the object of Toxapex.
So it is not a major argument to ban Diglett.

LordHelix I think your missing the point here. Arena Trap and shadow tag constrict team building, the only "counterplay" to those abilities is to not run a team that is weak to them. Some teams can just get inherently destroyed if they are weak to the abilities. I named 4 mons that, diglett an unevolved mon, ohkoes. Obviously it does more than just that (obviously much less than dugtrio).
No teams was weak to Dugtrio. A lot of teams was weak to a core with Dugtrio, like CharY-Dugtrio or Stall+Dugtrio.
However, some teams are weak to a core with Magnezone, for example Magnezone-LatiosM ( Example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-446184 )
 
Thats 4 mons, magnezone also traps four mons efficiently (celesteela, ferrothorn, scizor and skarm. And non uturn jirachi can eventually lose to paras) which are just as important glues to the team just like ttar and heatran

And is magnezone is not totally useless outside of trapping either, it can soft check quite a few mons in pinsir, koko, lele, fini..etc) and is actually pretty difficult to switch into in general due to its decent offensive typing backed with its 394 spa.

It also can cripple checks it cant beat with toxic or volt switch out of them as well so thats some even more utility.

It supports braindead cores just like diglett could support but this time its just lele/zam offense or dragmag in gen 5 instead of zard y offense

There are so many parallels between magnezone and other trappers i reallly dont know why hes excused.

"Its just one type" isnt really a justification considering the amount of mons it traps is just as much as trapinch and diglett. Its still an inheretly uncompetitive abiliy

Will magnet pull only be banned once we have a trapper that reliably beats every teams steel glue?
Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet about the trapping ability discussion is its more than just trapping key targets.

Magnet Pull is very different from Arena Trap and Shadow Pull, while it might outright beat a similar or even more amount Pokemon, Arena Trap and Shadow Tag come with way more outright trapping utility which is considered uncompetative compared. In OU, Magnet Pull as a stand alone ability only traps 11 Pokemon, while Arena Trap traps 38 and Shadow Tag only misses out on 2 Pokemon in the whole of OU (only looking at PS OU). Its not just outright beating the Pokemon you trap that is all that matters, its removing a essential aspect of Pokemon, switching, on a large scale. For example Diglett is not beating Tapu Bulu at all in the slightest, however it can Toxic it for stall, which can be essential for the team beating, allowing for toxic stalling of potentially troublesome sets, giving the opponent no opportunity to defend against it. The opponent can't even leave most mons as low health with intention of healing them later, as these can also be removed. So with the huge amount of mons Arena Trap can trap, let alone Shadow Tag, Diglet may not beat as much outright compared to Zone, but it can cripple far more for the likes of stall, statusing, throwing up rocks up against something which cant stop it and other utility on top of its ability to trap key stall breakers in Ttar, Heatran etc. Unlike Magnezone, Diglet can stop far more potential counter play from the opponent, shutting down any chances for your opponent to outplay you.

TL:DR Although Diglet cant outright beat more than Magnezone, its has potential to trap far more, stopping weakened mons from healing, crippling key stall breakers and/or throwing up rocks uninhibited vs a defoger weak to rocks, which removes an essential part of competative mons which is removing potential counter play.
 
This argument is not good.
2 years ago, Dugtrio was the 5th pokemon the most played in OU. And no one using Shed Shell on Tyranitar against Dugtrio.( https://porydex.quinlancircle.com/stats/2017-07/gen-7-ou/1825/items/shed-shell )
The presence of Magnezone in OU restricts the object of Skarmory like the presence of Dugtrio/Diglett restricted the object of Toxapex.
So it is not a major argument to ban Diglett.
Stall is coming I was referencing gen 5 OU, not gen 7, a lot of what I said was about gen 5. Chople berry tyranitar is hardly used in gen 7, i thought this was pretty obvious that I was referencing gen 5. Chople is one of the best items for ttar in gen 5, the fact that he loses out on that or another item is pretty damn big, so I think my argument is pretty good.

No teams was weak to Dugtrio. A lot of teams was weak to a core with Dugtrio, like CharY-Dugtrio or Stall+Dugtrio.
However, some teams are weak to a core with Magnezone, for example Magnezone-LatiosM ( Example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-446184 )
Obviously your not able to just slap a dugtrio on any team, thats not how really any pokemon works. In a previous post I had mentioned Forretress on BW sun teams luring in heatran, the volting out for dugtrio or diglett to come in, that would be an example of a good core in (BW only ofc). It should be pretty obvious that teams are weak to a core with dug, not just dug alone, I probably worded my post badly, apologies. I agree, dug on stall was busted lol.
 
For "Victim of The Week" it says to try to post only OU viable mons, but isn't that what we have the checks and counters section in the strategy dex for? I feel allowing players to post less popular sets or banning sets in the analysis would make for a better thread
 

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