I know this is completely hypothetical since baton pass is banned, but would baton pass Hatterene work as a pivot that doesnt pass any boosts? To go a bit further, is there a reason why baton pass is outright banned instead of restricting it to no boosts? Or is that too complex?
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Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread
- Thread starter Jordy
- Start date
In the past, we restricted baton pass to being banned when used alongside speed boosts or different combinations of stat boosts. However, this proved to be insufficient in removing the banworthy strategy. Ultimately, complex bans cause incompete solutions and a full-on ban is the best way to both handle the problem and remove any otherwise abusable precedent from being present within our tiering rule-set. No comment on the Hatterene question as I do not want to theorymon
I think everyone can agree that dry passing is completely balanced and not banworthy, but the problem is stuff like Swagger or Soul Heart would still allow stat passing even if those are very rare cases. Complex bans try to be as simple as possible, so even if restricting it to no boosts sounds simple in theory, there are many loopholes you have to watch out for and adding more rules or going as far as changing game mechanics to cover the loopholes makes banning the move the simplest thing to do. Dry passing is just an unfortunate colateral damage of banning a broken and uncompetitive playstyle.
So, I noticed that Adamant Dragapult is decently popular. Since its hard to get a read on what movesets it uses are just from the data statistics what do the standard Adamant Dragapults look like right now?
Honestly, Adamant is mainly used on novelty DD sets (like Sub DD). +Atk sets are used on the common Dragon Darts / Hex / Status / UTurn set, which has risen to prominence to help with Volcarona and chipping Chansey/Blissey. In addition, a +Atk nature is also used on the Dragon Dance / Dragon Drats / Steel Wong / Fire Blast LO set we see on hyper offense.
Good to know. Thanks.
This is your standard SpDef Excadrill:
Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock / Toxic / Swords Dance
88 Atk / 168 Def / 252 Spe, which allows Excadrill to survive a Focus Blast from unboosted Alakazam (and Gengar), might be more relevant if Magearna gets banned (you need 224 SpD EVs to live Aura Sphere from Choice Specs Magearna).
To add onto the above, investing in Special Defense is much more efficient for Excadrill than investing into its HP. This is because of the fact that there's such a massive gap between HP and its Special Defense stats. Investing into Special Defense is far more consequential than investing into HP as a result. For example:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 408-482 (96.2 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
That's a pretty big difference as you can tell. One last thing: you can consider running 32 Attack EVs to always 2HKO physically defensive Toxapex.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 408-482 (96.2 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
That's a pretty big difference as you can tell. One last thing: you can consider running 32 Attack EVs to always 2HKO physically defensive Toxapex.
I know I'm gonna sound like an idiot for asking this, but here I go. Could somebody explain why darmanitan-galar is banned instead of just banning gorilla tactics instead due to it being an exclusive ability? I am by no means calling for a darm-galar retest, I just want to rehear the reasoning behind this ban versus something like cinderace, as Libero has shown to be balanced on Raboot, who is solid in PU, making cinderace as a whole be looked at. Since gorilla tactics is only on this mon and has an alternative ability, it would make sense for someone to think why not just ban gorilla tactics. Thanks for whoever responds to this, it'll help me and arguably many others who view this question understand tiering policy a bit more.
A moderator or council member will probably answer in a bit with a detailed answer about slippery slopes (ugh) but the answer to me is that it's just how Smogon works. Smogon very rarely bans something that isn't a Pokemon, and when it does, it's egregiously broken. Things like Shadow Tag stripping away basic counterplay, OHKO moves reducing matches to coin tosses, or Baton Pass enabling horrible cheese despite countless nerfs. If Gorilla Tactics was to be banned, it would need to be a similar caliber of broken, but it's just a really shitty version of Huge Power. The only reason it's problematic is because it's attached to an already-strong Pokemon.
There's lots of semi-arbitrary decisions in the history of the site that just sort of are at the whim of whoever is in charge at the time. There are numerous examples of "pieces" of mons being banned to preserve metagame; see gen 5 rain or soul dew bans. Sometimes the mon gets banned, sometimes the ability (was Moody remoraid really that problematic lol). It's mostly to have a clean and tidy looking banlist and to minimize "relevant" casualties. Of course, the hat trick is that the tiers themselves are banlists, just obfuscated. In general it makes sense not to pick and choose elements of mons because it breaks down the tiering structures the more you do it, but GT seems like a very easy and definable example of something that wouldn't lead to a slippery slope.
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To put it simply, banning an ability is considered a complex ban and therefore only to be implemented as a last resort when banning individual Pokemon cannot reasonably remove an unhealthy element from the metagame.
Katy
Banned deucer.
hello,
pelipper offers much more than politoad on rain-teams as it can use utility with knock off, u-turn, roost and defog. knock off removes annoying items whereas u-turn keeps up or generates momentum for the rest of the team to bring in teammates such as kingdra in safely. roost guarantees the necessary longevity for pelipper to maintain the utility it offers and lastly defog can be another option to remove annoying entry-hazards such as spikes and especially t-spikes for the rest of the team to keep up the breaking power with no drawbacks / restrictions. pelipper also offers an immunity to ground-type attacks such as the prominent earthquake and the now common high horsepower whereas politoad can get damaged due to that, which hinders its longevity to keep up the rain with its ability in drizzle in the long term of the game.
pelipper also can be used as an offensive breaker on rain teams with the choice specs-set and coverage options in hurricane which always hits in the rain due to the 100% accuracy here and weather ball which gets even stronger during the rain turns and is also stab and is a nice surprise-set on some rain-teams.
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Is Electroball a viable option on Cinder instead of Zen? With no investment and Hasty/Naive, it outdamages Zen against Bold Toxapex and doesn’t make contact, avoiding Baneful Bunker shenanigans. Also messes up Slowbro nicely.
You miss out on Kommo-O and neutral hits on Dragapult, but Electro Ball is technically viable. Missing out on those two and a ton of midground a is not great and many Toxapex run SDef tho.
I am very curious about the interesting Sub Roost Kyurem that can be found in the early sets in the smogdex:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpD / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Substitute
- Roost
What does the spread do, and in what team does thing get used? Thx in advance!
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpD / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Substitute
- Roost
What does the spread do, and in what team does thing get used? Thx in advance!
Has anyone managed to find success with Crawdaunt in the current meta? It's currently ranked B- but I haven't seen any good teams using it in the current meta. Unfortunately vulnerable to Magearna (whose place in the tier is looking shaky right now to put it lightly), Urshifu, Zeraora, and a lot of others, but it still looks like a decent pick in the meta.
What have people been running on it and with it?
What have people been running on it and with it?
SD LO Jolly is really good at blowing holes in bulky grass and water types, it’s nice to pair with stuff like Rillaboom and Zeraora (who can also both pivot to get it in)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 56 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem: 168-198 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Basically you can PP stall clef out of Moonblasts with pressure by alternating DD/Roost and then meme with +6 Kyu, assuming your opponent lets you do that fsr. Regarding the other question, I haven't been playing lately so the only concrete answer I can give is something to break through Pex, since it walls you pretty effectively.
The HP is so Blissey Seismic Tosses don't break the sub. Not sure about the max SpD tho.
I just want to ask, what are the Pokémon that greatly benefited from the Cinderace and Magearna ban?
A precise list will not exist until the meta develops, but TPP put together this list in the new metagame discussion thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-metagame-discussion-thread-v6.3668322/