Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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AuraRayquaza said:
metagross-mega.gif

Mega Metagross to Tier 2
Good showing in snake, it synergises well with all the tapus allowing it to be on a wide variety of teams, and has a wide array of coverage options for its 3rd slot. It is in my opinion the second best mega atm behind mence. doesnt quite take games over but always does something, even if its just checking deo a.
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Was about to post this same thing. Metagross is in a great spot right now with steels like Heatran and Aegislash being rare, and it hits so damn hard even just with neutral attacks. Big fan.
 
Trelloant said:
Azu does not function as a Marshadow check at all. Its only optimal use is to belly drum and then ohko things. You can't say something is an effective check to a mon just because its only not countered by the mon when its being used sub-optimally. Marshadow is killed by a lot of things when its underneath trick room because of its high speed. Marsh just anal's it all other times by stealing its boosts.
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i should have stated, it does need to sety up b-drum, but after that it can easily check marsh, due to the fact that it can OHKO it with jet and it cant be OHKOed with sneak
 
Doubles VR Duel

The final VR Shift is coming out shortly (not accepting more noms), but I have another announcement in the meantime

After managing the Doubles VR Thread for over 2 years straight I have finally decided to give up ownership of it.

miltankmilk and qsns will be partaking in a Duel to decide who will be the new owner of the thread for when USUM comes around.

The conditions are as follows:
- The Set will be a Best of 5 Match of SM Doubles OU
- Every individual team used by both Players can have at most 2 Pokemon from Tier 2 and higher
- Every individual team used by both Players must have at least 2 Pokemon that are Unranked on the VR
- Winner will gain ownership of the USUM Doubles VR thread
- Loser will be banished to the fabled Shadow Realm within the Doubles Discord for 1 day

As a celebration of me finally getting my computer repaired and delivered back to me after 1 month, I will be putting it to use by streaming this match on twitch.tv/smogonu

It will be commentated by myself and MajorBowman at 8pm EST (GMT -5) tomorrow 11/16
[8:39 PM] kamikaze: qsns and @[thonky] miltankmilk
[8:39 PM] kamikaze: I like a good show
[8:39 PM] kamikaze: so lets make this interesting
[8:39 PM] kamikaze: I am gonna make you
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for it
[8:39 PM] [thonky] miltankmilk: lol
[8:40 PM] kamikaze: here are the terms
[8:40 PM] kamikaze: Bo3 SM DOU
[8:40 PM] kamikaze: You can have a maximum of 2 pokemon from Tier 2 and above
[8:40 PM] kamikaze: You must have a minimum of 2 pokemon that are UR
[8:40 PM] kamikaze: on each team you bring
[8:41 PM] kamikaze: If you accept then schedule and I will advertise on the thread
[8:41 PM] happy holishays :D: this is just like ablast leaving me off the TL vote
[8:41 PM] kamikaze: maybe even stream
[8:41 PM] happy holishays :D: betrayed again
[8:41 PM] kamikaze:
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[8:41 PM] kamikaze: my comp is back
[8:41 PM] kamikaze: SM btw no USUM stuff
[8:42 PM] kamikaze: if you were willing to play tomorrow night that would be a fun way to close off SM
[8:42 PM] kamikaze: but up to you guys
[8:42 PM] [thonky] miltankmilk: i mean im in whenever
[8:42 PM] happy holishays :D: i hope they both lose
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[8:42 PM] [thonky] miltankmilk: i just need like a few hours to build
[8:42 PM] marilli: LOL
[8:43 PM] qsns: tomorrow nights great
EDIT: We upped to Best of 5
 
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Jeffv said:
Are we going to have the replay of the commentary available on twitch ?
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yes it will be. potentially youtube assuming no issues

Final VR Votes

Togekiss UR -> 5
kamikaze: Yes. It honestly is fine nice to have a redirector that also checks Marshadow

MajorBowman: yes, same @ marilli

Marilli: Yes. Turns out being the second best redirector, having good speed control, and beating Marshadow 1v1 makes for a pretty decent Pokemon.

Memoric: Yeah ^

miltankmilk: Yeah, this thing’s viable as a redirector in a Jirachi-less meta. Nothing else is actually good at using follow me and Amoonguss has its flaws using rage powder.

Qsns: Yeah, marilli used it in Snake and I was definitely happy how it supported something like sd lando. Neat support options like Encore and Air slash buying turns give it a lot of versatility.

shaian: Yes.probably is the second best redirector but its a distant second. That being said it does have quite a few positives going for it, all of which Marilli mentioned.
Whimsicott UR -> 5
kamikaze: No not too convinced on this mon’s limited showings so far.

MajorBowman: No, I hate this mon so much. It’s either a tailwind bot that dies after setting or easily played around if it’s spamming encore/taunt/whatever support move. Rarely worth using unless it’s for beat up BS and that doesn’t deserving a ranking

Marilli: yes this is a better Pokemon than terrakion objectively speaking

Memoric: yes, tailwinding and endeavoring stuff and fake tearsing stuff is a good enough niche for 5

miltankmilk: Yeah it’s good enough to be ranked. Nature power is pretty neat on it, priority tailwind/encore combod with endeavor shit can be pretty annoying to deal with. Deadweight in a lot of matchups tho.

Qsns: No this thing’s trash

shaian: Tailwind, fake tears, endeavour, encore and prankster is enough of a niche for tier 5 apparently. So yeah.
Mega Salamence 1 -> 2
kamikaze: Mega Mence is still the most versatile and strongest mega in the tier so far. The variety of sets it can run as well as its ability to be run on so many different team comps allowing for creativity in other slots definitely makes it one of the best representatives of a Tier 1 Pokemon currently

MajorBowman: Hellllll no, mence is easily still the #1 mega and fits on pretty much any team archetype. There is almost no team that would be made worse by adding mega salamence, and that speaks to both its strength and flexibility. See marilli’s vote for detailed reasoning because he covered it super well.

Marilli: No, mence is still the best mega in the tier, to the point that this is the default mega on most teams. There’s seriously much more mega diversity right now. However, mega Mence is an exception here: it’s so good overall that it’s almost never wrong to put this on most structures, unlike half the other good megas that really need specific teammates to be actually worth putting on your team. It’s omnipresence cannot be simply explained by its versatility (it’s also the most versatile mega in the tier!), it’s also because it puts in work almost every matchup, which is what pushes it from 2 to 1.


Seriously, look at Mega Scizor, literally all Mega Scizor teams are just the same team with 1-2 mon difference. Same with Mega Metagross which is either psyspam with 1-2 mon difference, or basically Mega Scizor team above with 1-2 mon differences, with Mega Meta swapped in for Mega Scizor. Look at the Frania’s teambuilding frameworks thread for a great illustration. Every archetype that does not specify a Mega goes well with Mega Salamence, which is something no other Mega can boast.

Memoric: No way lol, pretty flexible and can fit anywhere. Never a bad mon to have and is pretty dominant in its own right

miltankmilk: no, mence is a defining pokemon in this tier, has different sets that can invalidate certain checks. DD is way more threatening than it gets credit for and the tailwind/mixed sets are some of the most splashable options in the tier. Still tier 1.

Qsns: No. Marilli covered this better than I ever will.

shaian: No this pokemon is literally 1 of the 2 or 3 pokemon that this metagame revolves around. Foh with this.
Ninetales-Alola 5 -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: No, I’ve always been pretty skeptical of ninetales. Its only purpose is an aurora veil bot and it doesn’t even do a good job of that with how popular other weathers are. Its existence is completely invalidated if hail isn’t up and if it gets aurora veil up then it’s totally deadweight. I would probably leave it in 5 and never UR it because aurora veil itself is pretty good, but ninetales as a standalone mon is hot garbage

Marilli: Probably yes, but quite conflicted. One hand, Veil is pretty OP. People underestimate Ninetale-A’s threat level: Encore and Disable can ruin people. Alolatals also has ways to outplay opposing weather: getting a safe double into opposing setter / volt-turn into this can let it setup despite opposing weather. (Scarf Victini is particularly good at luring in both setters and turning on them.)


On the other hand regular screens can still ruin people and help you set up all the same (most times u dont need to set up both). It also does no damage and is incredibly one-dimensional, which makes ur strats obvious and thus matchup-oriented.


Memoric: No, p one dimensional and p bad outside of just setting AVeil. Should really just sit around at 5

miltankmilk: no, ninetales is hilariously bad even though veil is good. Its speed tier is only OK, sand is common enough to completely invalidate ninetales in many matchups, Scizor/metagross/Marshadow all are capable of stopping veil at preview. Its simply not good enough to move up with its lack of offensive and defensive utility.

Qsns: 5. Ninetales sucks- the best teams right now all have ways to stop it from getting up a turn 1 veil, its move strength is pathetic, and its too one dimensional. Aboma + veil mew or dual screens literally anything else is better in most cases.

shaian: Abstain. Ninetales is what i like to refer to as a “hot girl in a club”. That means it is quite nice to look at but stupidly one dimensional.
Mega Charizard Y 3 -> 4
kamikaze: Yes. this actually saddens me but im sure he will burn down on the metagame once more some day.

MajorBowman: yes, sadly zard just lost a lot of steam this gen. It’s not *bad* per se, but stealth rocks being so common is super bad for it, and it just doesn’t stack up well against most of what became standard in SM

Marilli: yeeeaa i like this mon but sr being common really makes it a pain trying to build around this. It’s still a huge threat once it’s in with tailwind tho, but you only got 1 shot to survive make your time and you can still say the same about speed control support with a bunch of other pokemon like volcanion and diancie :x

Memoric: yea there’s too much annoying this rn in the current metagame; it’s not a diss to its power and ability to be a threat or anything but when the meta is really just prepared it’s quite problematic

miltankmilk: yes made nom

Qsns: 4. Why are we in a world where defog is being used + chary loses to every top offensive threat.

shaian:yes stealth rocks bumping up in usage enough to justify actually factoring it into calcs and team builds is enough to keep this thing from staying in tier 3.
Mega Gardevoir 3-> 4
kamikaze: No. I think this mon is still fairly good and deserving of the Tier 3 slot. I am honestly waiting for someone to crack the door open on Gardevoir like Dawg did last gen where it would rise to Tier 2.

MajorBowman: No, Garde still has the potential to be a great Pokemon thanks to its super strong and super consistent spread damage and ability to fit on a few different archetypes. Has a lot of trouble with marshadow and steels, but if those holes can be patched it's a pretty big threat

Marilli: disagree. This is one of the best megas in the game right now after Mega Mence, Mega Scizor, and Mega Metagross. If being one-shot by Marshadow was a reason to move down a Pokemon (that has speed control support for itself and can OHKO Marsh after said free turn), we should also be moving Tar and Heatran down. Use this with Amoonguss or use a fast mode like Koko to set TR and wreck face.

Memoric: No, still a really dangerous threat in its own right and a very effective semiroom piece. Capable of taking games on its own tbh and it’s enough of a threat to be t3

miltankmilk: yes made nom

Qsns: No. Still a top mega imo - hits extremely hard with a spread move and provides its own speed control.

shaian: abstain. I will never not believe in mega gardevoir.
Scrafty 5 -> 4
kamikaze: No. This thing is actually awful and I will stand by that. Copy Pasting what I said last time.

“No. This mon hits like a wet noodle. Fake Out and Intimidate are nice but it fails to have an offensive pressure. This is a big deal since I see it often being abused by people taking advantage of Scrafty’s team it by burnings TR turns. Scrafty rarely can ever be threatening on the first turn of TR after it used Fake Out to get it up since its often intimidated and usually a fairy like Fini comes in and forces it out. People try to use it as a Ferro check on their TR teams and it doesnt really work out well since it keeps getting intimidated in almost every instance I see a ferro in front of it. Fightinium I have seen a few times and it may be more threatening but you give up the added survivability from a berry so it can Fake Out multple times in one game. So pick your poison.”



MajorBowman: YES YOU HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. I’ve been saying all gen that scrafty is legit, fake out + intimidate + knock off is so good, and the pinch berries gave scrafty a super good option outside of AV so running taunt is really easy too. It even takes some fairy attacks too like what can scrafty not do???

Marilli: my nom


Memoric: Yes, fake out + intim w/ Knock utility is good and I like this thing on slower builds like semiroom n shit.

miltankmilk: abstain, I really don’t think this mon is that good but all the reasoning associated with the nom also makes sense. Don’t mind either way.

Qsns: Yes. Great support mon with Fake/Knock/Intimidate that sees more usage + is much more viable than everything in 5.

shaian: yes. Intimdate and fake out are good and so is knock off. Just use high jump kick instead of lame punch. This thing fucks with kyub yo.
Pelipper 4 -> 3
kamikaze: No. I dont think pelipper as a mon besides offering drizzle is too great. It is nice to have the extra flying coverage on rain teams which is why I definitely place it above Politoed.

MajorBowman: no, pelipper is a pretty mediocre mon outside of drizzle. I get the rain sweeper vs rain mon argument and that would probably be the only reason i’d vote yes, but i think pelipper’s general lack of utility outside its ability makes it tier 4 material

Marilli: my nom


Memoric: abstain. Pelipper the Pokemon is a 4 but Pelipper the Playstyle is 3. I honestly don’t mind either.

miltankmilk: No, I think rain is a little overhyped rn. Peli sits at a really bad speed tier for a tailwind setter, leaves a little to desire in terms of hitting hard under rain and also can get pressured by opposing weather (tyranitar). Still a decent mon, I just think 4 is a fine place.


Qsns: yes, ranking rain setters behind its users is stupid and it’s not like politoed where the mon itself is horrendous. Pelipper is pretty threatening with investment and has a solid support movepool to back up its role as a setter.

shaian: yes only because of where the rain users are and they fuckign suck without pelipper. This stupid ass looking bird is lucky it has drizzle. Other weather pokemon need to be like ttar and be good AND have weather. smh @ gamefreak not giving drizzle to [insert decent water pokemon of your choice here]
Celesteela 2 -> 3
kamikaze: No. miltankmilk summed it up

MajorBowman: no, still a pretty good pick in the current meta. It can run a pretty wide variety of sets that can determine whether it’s going to be impossible to break or scoring ko’s. It’s something you definitely have to account for in teambuilding and can, in theory, win games on its own, so i think it should stay 2

Marilli: my nom


Memoric: No, really great for pivoting and does work even if it’s just hitting stuff with heavy slams and the arsenal. Leech Seeding stuff, while passive, is also still always a usable way to play and can win games on its own.

miltankmilk: no I think celes is really good. Its a sort of reliable deo check (as good as anything is), its a steel that beats ferrothorn consistently and heavy slam hits hard enough that its annoying to switch into. Wide guard isn’t really used on it anymore but thats decent enough too.


Qsns: no. I think Celesteela autowins too many games to drop to 3 and though it’s passive, it almost always can put a dent in the opp w/ strong heavy slams. Sub flamethrower and Wide Guard are all different beasts to handle in terms of checks

shaian: no. Im not a fan of the passive nature of celesteela but it can run a more aggressive set with ease and it does work wonders against ferrothorn, tapu lele, lando-t, mence and even kyub to some degree since steel is a broken defensive typing. Prove me wrong. Protip: you cant. Probably.
Azumarill 4 -> 3
Kamikaze: I could theoretically see this jumping to 3 at some point. But not right now. It just seems very difficult to safely drum without taking much damage in the current metagame and even if you get to +6 pokemon like Salamence, Lele, and Ferrothorn can still be problematic. Salamence in particular is something we dont have in Gen 6 but have here which could potentially put a damper onto Azu. Making it difficult to setup safely because of its spread hyper voices as well as its typing allowing it live +6 Jet or+ Knock Off which tend to be more common over Play Rough, even though I personally prefer Play Rough.

MajorBowman: No, it’s a lot harder to use azu now than it was in ORAS and even when it gets set up there are a lot more common mons in this meta that can take a +6 jet. Can still put a dent in teams but not to a great enough extent to land in 3

Marilli: azu’s a niche pick and belongs in 4, but does excellently with some dedicated team support


Memoric: No, this is p lame to use but can be dangerous. you’ d have to support it though.

miltankmilk: No I don’t think this pokemon is good. The reasoning also isn’t good because this is not a good marshadow check. Azu struggles to really do much after setting up most of the time with the presence of lele, bulu, salamence, fini, etc.

Qsns: No. Azu is probably still underused considering its strength but needs too much cheese support to move up.

shaian: no way to niche and finding a place to safely belly drum is surprisingly difficult. And there are enough ways to keep azu from jetting lol.
Milotic 5 <- 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: 5. Pretty mediocre mon outside of icy wind spam and intimidate deterrent, but still takes a ton of damage from common intimidate mons. You’re better off using something else for speed control, not really much reason to use this over something like kyurem-b for icy wind

Marilli: milo’s a niche pick and belongs in 5, but does excellently against certain matchups


Memoric: abstain

miltankmilk: 4 is fine for milo. It’s a cool way to check intimidate users and keep things slow but it still has its problems. Haze is pretty dumb on milo because the only way its threatening is with boosts, it also has to drop protect or scald for it. Biggest problem rn is probably marshadow stealing its boosts. It can’t run the annoying coil set anymore and getting defensive boosts swiped sucks too.

Qsns: 5. Doesn’t do nearly enough to justify the slot most of the time if the opponent can

shaian: 4 is fine since intimdate will always be common and icy wind is the shit. Rip coil milo tho. Marsh is busted.
Mega Metagross 3 -> 2/1
Kamikaze: 2

MajorBowman: 2. I’ve absolutely loved mega metagross lately, it appreciates terrains a lot more than I expected it to and does a ton of damage to most stuff in the format. It can threaten pretty much all of the top mons depending on its coverage move(s) and is super bulky even uninvested. Not sure if I would go all the way to 1, but definitely strong enough for 2.

Marilli: 2. Metagross is one of the best megas in the format, probably the 2nd best mega right now.

Memoric: 2, it’s good but not “you can get away with this on any team” good

miltankmilk: tier 2. Gross is one of the best megas in the format, has great coverage options and good bulk. The ‘fat gross’ set is really really good, but tier 1 is a really select group of splashable pokemon and thats just not quite what gross is.

Qsns: Hesitant 1. I think this is strong enough in every matchup to compete with the metagame titans. Obscenely strong with flexible coverage, strong bulky & fast, matches up well vs nearly every fatter team.

shaian: 2 and i fucking hate mega metagross but its hard to deny its good as hell.
Ferrothorn 3 -> 2
kamikaze:3

MajorBowman: 3, same reasoning as miltankmilk

Marilli: no. ferro’s weakness to marsh and fires, as well as its speed, make it really unreliable as a defensive to anything. It checks koko, but then you pair it with a volcanion / marshadow, and suddenly it doesn’t check koko. It has a big bad 4mss too.


Memoric:3, “it’s really good but will always be haunted by the fact that certain mus hound it.” (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-viability-rankings.3592903/page-12#post-7564570). Also it can just be a dud and that can make you a really sad boy

miltankmilk: I love ferro but I think 3 is the correct spot for it. As great as it is defensively, it can be a big momentum suck, using rocks as an option requires dropping leech or gyro (both of which suck to lose). I think 3 is a fine place for it. People are adapting to ferro pretty well too (heat wave zap, not terrible fires, marsh exists)

Qsns: 3. ferro has gotten even worse since the last vote 2 weeks ago. It had a poor Snake showing with high usage and the appearance of way more random fire coverage hurts it a ton.

shaian: no ugly momentum sucks cant be tier 2. Also people are rocking hp fire and what not everywhere so lol my last post about ferro was dead on. Gottem ;)
Victini 4 -> 3
kamikaze: 4. We just voted from 5 to 4 but I dont think this is anywhere near reaching the level of the Tier 3 pokemon

MajorBowman: no, trading 1 for 1 with gambit is cool and all but victini doesn’t have much of a purpose outside scarf gambit. There are better TR setters and better fire types, so 4 is a good spot for it. Tier 1 cuteness tho

Marilli: did we just literally not vote on this? Opinion hasn’t changed.

Memoric: this is good but not 3 good

miltankmilk: No, this mon’s pretty niche and while its kinda cool with gambit/ vcreate, 4 is about as high as I think it deserves to be.

Qsns: same @ marilli

shaian: my old opinion on this is the same as my current one. Stay 4.
Mega Tyranitar 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: no, i’ve been saying forever that there is literally only 1 reason to use mega tar over regular tar and that’s speed tiers for DD, but DD is an awful set on tyranitar in general. I really really think mega tar is awful just because of the opportunity cost associated with using it. Honestly i’d drop it to 5 if i could

Marilli: no. i feel normal tar is too good to make mega tar good enough. Forces it to DD, and DD is not what tar does best. If not DD, the gain in bulk does not make up for the lack of dmg boosting item / resist berry, which is not big enough to dedicate the mega slot.

Memoric: yes tbh, i was honestly really skeptical of this as a boosting set-up sweeper with no power move and only rock slide as its cleaner seemed really dubious. However, its ability to apply pressure considering it can boost a decent amount of the time + its absurd bulk make it a really good mon. Can flash early on and push stuff off, can clean late, can pivot; great utility in one mon tbh. Has the results too.

miltankmilk: sure, mega tar is good and fat. I’ve only ever seen success on the DD set but its really good at what it does, pretty easy to support and hard to take down.

Qsns: 3. Was skeptical at first but it’s shown the results - its bulk is beyond stupid and its +1 speed tier is perfect for this metagame.

shaian: i borrow teams from aurarayquaza a lot so im going to say yes. Dd set is ace with some decent support.
Mega Diancie 2 -> 3/4
kamikaze: 3

MajorBowman: 4. I thought Diancie would be pretty good with the buffs to Diamond Storm and the mega evolution/speed mechanic, but the prominence of a bunch of different steel types and its general frailty really let it down. I think it has too hard of a time making an impact in battles to be any higher than 4

Marilli: tier 3. Diancie is good but needs speed control desperately. 110 simply isn’t as good a speed tier as it was before. Most offensive teams will have some combination of koko / marshadow / steel type / landorus-T which makes it really difficult for diancie to make progress vs. M-Scizor / Metagross being so common hurts it a lot, but can be overcome with good partners, especially vs balanced teams that give diancie the speed advantage and some breathing room, to drop it any further.


Memoric: 3, its speed tier is not as good as it once was, which is p bad considering how frail it is + offensive steels are on the rise.

miltankmilk: Tier 3, diancie’s good but its speed tier’s not that valuable anymore and ttar is the more splashable rock type. Ever present ferrothorn and more common scizor and gross give it problems too.

Qsns: 3. Rise of steels in MGross/MSciz make it useless in some matchups though it can tear through a lot of Salamence teams without much trouble. Use a bulkier spread and drop some speed btw - nothing much resides above Timid Lele unless you’re desperate for a gross speed tie :x

shaian: tier 3 though diancie can find ways around its common weaknesses so it probably wont go much lower without some CrAzY metashifts like new games coming out! LOL.
Excadrill 5 -> 4
kamikaze: Still 5

MajorBowman: No, drill is pretty weak and basically requires a z move to do significant damage but still can’t even get that right because the two best intimidate mons in the format are immune to one of its stabs. Pretty disappointing mon overall, would even go so far as to drop it to UR personally

Marilli: No. strong niche pick but that’s what 5 is for. Ttar is not best defensive synergy + has hard time vs lando / intim / marsh / etc. tr exists, tailwind zapdos exists, and heat wave zap being more popular than ever can make your life pretty miserable.


Memoric: 5, looks cool but punished too much by intim and reliant on something it doesn’t have too great synergy w/

miltankmilk: nah 5 is ok for drill. Its easily deterred by intimidate and doesn’t really function as a steel type so the team kinda has to run 2 steels. You also need ttar and these two can stack checks more than you’d like to.

Qsns: 5. Next to no defensive utility and struggles to break common defensive mons/pivots like Zap, Fini and Lando-T.

shaian: no lando-t and zyggy make life hard for our faithful mole.
Landorus-I UR -> 5
kamikaze: No. It hasnt seen much usage in awhile so want to see that to get some more idea of

MajorBowman: No, sees no usage at all and other stuff does the “strong special attacker” job better

Marilli: no. haven’t seen it be used ever. 101 is not good enough base speed.


Memoric: whose mans is this?

miltankmilk: abstain

Qsns: No, I’m not comfortable ranking something that hasn’t been seen all gen without replays.


shaian: abstain. hasnt been used but i generally trust franias thinking.
Cresselia 5 -> UR
kamikaze: UR. This mon hasnt seen much usage and especially with Gardevoir and Hoopa-U around it kinda doesnt get much opportunity to be placed on teams as they are more offensive

MajorBowman: poor cresselia. I love this mon so much but this just hasn’t been its year. It struggles to get anything done except set TR and look pretty, so it doesn’t really deserve to be ranked. With a heavy heart I vote UR

Marilli: No. i think this mons still alright, but seed cm is a bit too slow to be quite as good enough in the current meta. But 1 marsh doesn’t invalidate this pick and marsh actually threatens most of opposing cress checks. Actually the only problem i have with cress being 5 is that I have been thinking necrozma is better in the meta because of its access to SR.


Memoric: yes, haven’t seen this much and too much punish this in the first place

miltankmilk: yeah this mon’s bad. Marsh/ttar/hoopa/ferrothorn pretty much invalidate cress, semiroom just needs to keep up more pressure than cress can offer + fullroom would rather have zong.

Qsns: abstain

shaian: yes. Too many common pokemon fuck with cresselia. Rip the queen.
Torkoal 5 -> UR
Kamikaze: abstain

MajorBowman: yes, idk why this thing was ever ranked

Marilli: abstain


Memoric: turtle (abstain)

miltankmilk: abstain

Qsns: No, it’s fine and does well on full TR teams that don’t have room for Fini to stop Amoonguss.

shaian: no people actually have some success with this pokemon, even against teams with a water type like fini, which is annoying to me because that means ash might have had a point when he used it in destiny deoxys vs a fucking blastoise.
Porygon-Z 5 -> UR
Kamikaze: abstain

MajorBowman: yes, the week where everyone was spamming it ended a long time ago and it dropped off the face of the earth. Requires a looooot of help to get anything done and really hates how popular kyurem has become

Marilli: yeah this mons bad now.


Memoric: No, this still has /some/ viability despite some trends not going in its favor imo, still at the edge of 5

miltankmilk: yes, way too much kyurem-b/ferrothorn. Needs a pretty perfect matchup to do anything now.

Qsns: UR too much kyube

shaian: yeah this mons bad. Only level 51 uses it.
Snorlax 2 -> 3
kamikaze: No. I agree with marilli. I think people are really underestimating it. Its no longer the Tier 1 threat it used to be but I dont think it should drop to 3

MajorBowman: abstain, really haven’t seen lax at all since marshadow’s release. I don’t think marsh completely invalidates lax by any means, but it definitely throws a wrench into the works. If people had kept using lax and it wasn’t useful at all i’d vote 3, but since it seems like people just forgot it existed i don’t know if the usage is because it lost viability or because people just moved on

Marilli: nah. I think people underestimate lax, which is still really good because marshadow is a core part of offense for most teams and thus presents it as a very tradable threat. But it’s very true that it can’t just come up and wall everything because Marshadow is on most teams already.


Memoric: No, still a good mon in its own right, its ability to be effective just got lessened because of marsh. Can still be a punk pos.

miltankmilk: Yes, the meta has adapted quite well to the curse set. BD is still really threatening but has longevity problems that make lax fit in 3 better anyway.

Qsns: No, it can sponge hits from and hit back against a lot of Pokemon balance has trouble with (CM Fini, various special attackers like Koko). Marsh doesn’t even beat it if it comes in after a Curse, especially not with Intimidate support + SR/EQ/Rock Move/Protect Landorus-T is seeing the most usage.

shaian: abstain. Snorlax is like lebron. I refuse to count it out just yet.

Tier Changes:
Togekiss UR -> 5
Whimsicott UR -> 5
Mega Charizard Y 3 -> 4
Scrafty 5 -> 4
Milotic 4 -> 5
Mega Metagross 3 -> 2
Mega Tyranitar 4 -> 3
Mega Diancie 2 -> 3
Cresselia 5 -> UR
Porygon-Z 5 -> UR
 
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