Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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@ above:

This is pretty minor, but I can guarantee you that Wish Jirachi will never be the reason it deserves to rise. The best set is still the pivot SR set that typically runs Max HP / SpD investment / speed creep with Iron Head / U-turn / Stealth Rock / Filler (typically Healing Wish)--Wish Jirachi either has poor role compression because you sacrifice Stealth Rock or U-turn for Protect or is just complete ass cakes because you will likely rarely be able to heal up Jirachi with Wish because you lack Protect (think of Jirachi pivoting into a Lele's Psychic, clicking Wish, and then being forced out by Lando before it can receive its own Wish).
 
Unranked -> C+

All Baton Pass related mons were unranked except for Scolipede, because Scolipede has a usable Waterium Z Set outside of Baton Pass. The same applies for Necrozma, who is incredibly dangerous with the following Set:

Necrozma @ Leftovers/Psychium Z/Pecha Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonlight

With Scarf Dugtrio you can trap all relevant Dark types (except MSab). Aerial Ace also heavily weakens Mega Heracross, who is a problem because of the 5 hits Pin Missle critrate. If you want to be sure, you can use something like Eject Button Toxapex. The only way to deal with this mon after your hard hitters got trapped is Toxic, early Trick, early Haze or Hax. That is why you can use alternative Items like
a) Pecha Berry (+Tapu Fini Misty Terrain to be sure :D )
b) or Psychium Z.

With a Pecha Berry you can avoid any forms of Poison once which can be game deciding. Necrozma does not really care abt Burn dmg and while paralysis is annoying, there are no common paralysis inducing moves in SM OU. The only thing that comes close is Discharge from Zapdos.

A solid strategy to stop a Necrozma sweep is going hard Toxapex and to click Haze. A +1 60 Basepower Stored Power can be stalled out by Toxapex with Recover+Haze. With Psychium Z you can kill even max Spdef Toxapex with +1 Z Stored Power:
+1 0 SpA Necrozma Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 356-420 (117.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another good thing is you do not have to fear any Tricks early game and Knock Off damage is heavily reduced

While Necrozma was C when Baton Pass was usable, I think it actually deserved a rank somehwhere in the Bs back then. Some replays with Necrozma after Baton Pass ban:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-584238533 Easy Turn 1 sweep against Rain.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-584669611 Turn 17 Band Zygarde attempts to Poison me. Pecha Berry comes in handy
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-584227232
 
...What the hell is special scarf Jirachi?
Also, minor nitpick, Pursuit still works even with U-turn.
I'll admit, I was wrong about Jirachi not beating hazard removers (my bad). But in what world does Jirachi 2HKO Fini with Thunder...
252 SpA Jirachi Thunder vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 144-170 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's with Thunder. Not Thunderbolt.
Also I will reiterate, Jirachi does. Not. Use. Electric. Moves. Particularly not on defensive or SR sets, which only run Iron Head and maayyybe Body Slam. Z-Happy Hour is the only set I know that does that, and it's a rare set now. (More on that later)
CM Jirachi has been extinct for a LONG time now, fren. The last time I saw it was gen 5. It's just outshined by basically any other CM user e.g. Reuniclus, Tapu Lele, Keldeo, Clefable etc. It's weak even with boosts (compared to offensive CMers), not all that bulky for a defensive CMer (while you could argue that Clefable is less bulky, it has a far better typing), and all in all, is a poor Calm Mind user.
Z-Happy Hour (its correct name actually) is not a terrible set per se, but I still think it's somewhat bad (would appreciate you showing replays of it actually finding an opportunity to sweep). It's weak even with a boost (if you still think base 100 is good now, I have no clue what to say), it will get worn down through the match, and in all honesty, you could do better with defensive Rachi and a different sweeper. In addition, good luck finding a chance to set up with the omnipresent Ground types running around. You require SO much team support (something to weaken bulky Waters, something to take care of the holy quadruple of Grounds, something for Heatran) and for what? A decently bulky, somewhat fast, somewhat weak "sweeper". And Lando-T and Zygarde still laugh at you.
lightninging I personally feel that balance/BO would prefer Healing Wish rather than Wish. But that's just me. Also, with fast Fini starting to be a thing, Jirachi does get trolled by Taunt+Nature's Madness. But I was wrong about the other hazard removers.
And here are a few of my own points for why I'm against a Jirachi rise.
- Sharing a typing with Mega Metagross does not automatically make it good. In fact, as Jirachi lacks priority and power, there's little to stop Dugtrio from coming in and eating you alive.
- Once again, its weaknesses are common. Ground types are on every team, Jirachi is perfect setup bait for the likes of Volcarona, and Ash-Gren and Gengar can still kill it easily.
- The SR setter is prone to getting worn down (even though it's the set that I use most). You literally have no recovery, and unlike Magearna, you don't have superhuman bulk with Assault Vest.
- Speaking of which, while Jirachi has its nice points like Healing Wish, U-turn, Stealth Rock, Wish, Psychic typing, etc. I still feel that Magearna and Celesteela are the better picks overall. While this could end up turning into a 3-way pro-con war (which I don't want it to), the latter two have better secondary typings, extreme versatility in the case of the former, and the ability to not get fucked by Dugtrio for the latter.
I still feel like relatively little has really changed for Jirachi for the positive. Keep it in B+.
To be fair Fini's man niche is as a defogger so it's probably coming in on hazards. Although thunder is unreliable and tbh will probably miss.


I think it's pretty simple for Amoongus at this point, drop it. Tapu koko is popular for that spore, Amoongus is weak af, Tangrowth checks more prominent shit like Zygarde and defensive lando, and amoongus loses to some pretty common cores like for example lele+alakazam. Flying types are everywhere and Tangrowth can at least knock off but once amoongus spores it can do shit to them. Drop this like a rock or grass...


More of a side note but can people stop shortening the shit out of some Pokemons names. Like jeez man say the full name at least once it took me like 5mins to figure out Gus was Amoongus I think I saw someone shorten Jirachi to aichi. I understand I'm not a moderator and I'm not vouching for any rules here but I think I speak for everyone when I say not to shorten these names too much to not make it confusing for people.
 
Jirachi beats most common hazard removers. Latios can't touch it, fini don't want to stay in on iron head, which deals nice damage even univested (and you are still faster, so each turn they are risking flinch). If you are running toxic set you not only prevent free set up of zardX, volcarona, but also beat defoog mantine and heavily cripple zaptos.

On defensive side jirachi is pretty solid, since magerana, no matter what set it runs cannot get past this mon. Shadow ball is not really a set since it doesn't hit anything beside jirachi. If you run status (toxic or twave, IMO both of them are really good right now) you check 1v1 bunch of special attackers and prevent free set up: magearna, volcarona, ash-gren before form change, lele, alakazam, latios, serperior.

It is really, really solid mon with few advantages over AV magearna: set up rocks, u-turn on dugtrio and spread status. It checks few special attackers worse(mainly ash gren), but some of it's special properties are amazing. IMO good candidate for A-
 
I also support Jirachi moving up to A-. I have proposed this way earlier in the thread, but I think it wasn't the right time for a Jirachi rise, looking at how much of the metagame was simply unkind to it.

Here are reasons why I think Jirachi should rise.
1. Jirachi is quite splashable
Jirachi has a very wide movepool as we all know. Because of this, Jirachi can act as a cleric, a set up sweeper with calm mind or Z-Celebrate, a support with wish, protect, toxic and iron head, etc. Jirachi can pass 232 wishes(correct me if I am wrong), which is huge amountes of HP. Looking at Doubles OU, all these reasons contributed to the Jirachi Ban. You can but Jirachi in a Hyper Offensive Team as support, An offensive team, a balance, stall(definitely), and practically almost all kinds of teams because of how much Jirachi has to offer.

2. The Banning of MegaGross
The banning of Megagross dramatically increased the usage of all Tapus, and other fairy types, as they have lost One very big counter. Jirachi also walls Steels, which are rising in Popularity, like AV Magearna and Celesteela, being a steel type itself. Thanks to Jirachi's wide movepool, it serves as a check to Celesteela, one of the most meta defining threats in the metagame, with Thunder or Thunder Bolt. Being immune to toxic helps even better, making Jirachi a good wall to stall teams. All Celesteela can to is to put leech seed of Jirachi, and Jirachi can easily follow up with a Thunder/bolt.

3. Strengths and weaknesses
Jirachi has few weaknesses, as being the same typing as MegaGross. Only weak to ground, dark, fire, and ghost, while offering a massive 9 resistances and immunity to the ever important poison, making it a good teammate for fairies. The prominant Ground type in the OU is dugtrio, which I don't see very often. Pursuit trappers like Weivel and tyranittar(wrong spelling) don't have a high usage in the OU and aren't very common unlike the Omnipresent Landorus-T or Tapu Lele. A-Marowak isn't as common as before. Mimkyu isn't counted because Jirachi has iron head and a higher speed to to take care of it. Fire types don't see much usage anymore as well, although HP fire is still as common as before.

For these reasons, I think Jirachi should rise to A-.

As for Buzzwole, I already argued that it should drop. It should not rise. It is completely fine where it is. There is no reason why the ban of Megagross helped it, I actually think it helped it die out, because Tapu Lele is still everywhere, even more omniprominant than before after the ban, all tapus running around, I think you get my point. There are too many common checks to buzzwole. the only niche it has is that it has more longitivity as a bulky attacker than Mega Heracross with leftovers, but I think it should drop to C even so.

Sum up,

Jirachi= B+-A-
Buzzwole=C+-C
I think jirachi is fine where's it at gearna does a better job of lele countering than it and the scarf set is bad in this tier the rocks set is the best but is outclassed by lando-t and it's special set is really ineffective because of gearna walking that set
 
I think jirachi is fine where's it at gearna does a better job of lele countering than it and the scarf set is bad in this tier the rocks set is the best but is outclassed by lando-t and it's special set is really ineffective because of gearna walking that set
How does Lando-T outclass the SR set when Jirachi and Lando-T do completely different things beyond hazard setting?
 
I think jirachi is fine where's it at gearna does a better job of lele countering than it and the scarf set is bad in this tier the rocks set is the best but is outclassed by lando-t and it's special set is really ineffective because of gearna walking that set
It is also outclassed by mew a large amount of the time since mew can Defog rocks as well as set them and wall HP fire or focus Blast from lele better than rachi would.
It also has the ability to wall Landorus-Therian if it does not have Knock off and burn it as well as medichamp.

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 388-457 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These 4 calcs show how mew is equal 98% when walling lele and always better at walling medichamp on top of having better utility.

As well as this we have av megearna wich walls lele better 100% and hits harder with a better type. If you want a steel type.

For these reasons I think jirachi should remain ranked B+
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
It is also outclassed by mew a large amount of the time since mew can Defog rocks as well as set them and wall HP fire or focus Blast from lele better than rachi would.
It also has the ability to wall Landorus-Therian if it does not have Knock off and burn it as well as medichamp.

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 388-457 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These 4 calcs show how mew is equal 98% when walling lele and always better at walling medichamp on top of having better utility.

As well as this we have av megearna wich walls lele better 100% and hits harder with a better type. If you want a steel type.

For these reasons I think jirachi should remain ranked B+
despite the cherry picked calcs, its still inaccurate to say mew outclasses because 1) no mew runs no speed and goes full sdef 2) no mew will run both rocks and defog on the same set, it leaves no room for moves that are more necessary and make mew effective in the first place, such a roost, taunt, knock off, will-o-wisp, and many others (lol its mew).

being part steel is more than enough to differentiate jirachi from both lando-t and mew, so please don't say its outclassed by either.
 

Threw

cohiba
I think we're well overdue for a Toxapex drop.

This mon just isn't the incredibly splashable defensive monolith it was weeks ago anymore, not even close. Yes, it's for all intents and purposes the only usable T-Spiker in the tier, and yes, its importance on *certain* stall builds shouldn't be understated, but its viability on anything more offensive than that style has plummeted as of late for a number of reasons. This is born out very clearly in its extremely low usage in the later weeks of OUPL (I can't speak to the earlier weeks because I didn't really follow them).

First and perhaps most importantly is the rise of removers that pressure the shit out of Toxapex, most notably Mew and Latios. Both come in virtuallly for free, only at the cost of a potential Scald burn that is far from game-ending for either. In the case of Lati, it gets free turns to fire off Specs Dracos and the like, which no team lacking Chansey is going to enjoy. Zapdos is another Defogger that it invites in, and even if it's 3 attacks, it is another Pokemon that Chansey-less balance hates letting in for free.

Rain used to be a relatively decent matchup for Toxapex, but with the introduction and constant spamming of Mega Pert, rain now has a reliable way to break it. It hasn't been a reliable Volcarona answer in months. It's still technically the most reliable answer to Zard Y, but the increased relevance of Tyranitar and, again, Lati has made answers to it easier to fit on teams - although many people, myself included, always pack Duggy with Zard, so it was never a particularly great answer to begin with. It also has terrible matchups against the other "new" megas in Medicham, Mawile, and Heracross (Pex has to get very lucky to beat it 1v1 and it never switches in and beats it).

Toxapex isn't a bad Pokemon but putting it next to dominant threats such as Ferrothorn and Heatran seems like a gross overstatement of its usefulness. Chansey has just as if not more defensive utility/splashability currently.

koko sucks lmao
 
I agree. Toxapex isn't as good as before. The banning of Mega Metagross left Tapu Lele running around wilder than before, giving it breathing room. This might have also contributed to the decrease of usage in Toxapex, and defoggers pressure it so much that even with outstanding bulk on both areas, it will still get 2 hit KOed by psychic and electric types(most notably Tapu Koko and Lele). Often, Toxapex doesn't run a poison type move, as water having better neutral coverage and a good 30% chance of burn. Because of this, it can't put a single dent on Fairies and other important checks and has become far less splashable. Now, it is viable in Bulky offense/Stall builds but horrible on Hyper offence and offence and balance. This makes it less splashable. I also agree with what Threw said, Chansey has just about more defensive utility ans splashability at the moment, and it is one subrank lower than toxapex.

Since Threw didn't say what rank Toxapex should drop to, I nominate Toxapex to drop to A-, the same rank as Chansey, or possibly even B+, seeing how easily pressured it is my common threats.

On a side note, Tapu Koko doesn't suck and is still worthy of its A rank. It is still a very good offensive pivot and can still dent teams with a 190 base power(correct me if I am wrong) Gigavolt Havoc+Electric Terrain Z move, with U-Turn and Taunt to give momentum and utility to the team. The banning of Mega Metagross helped it alot, having one less counter to it. It is still very good and viable, arguably being the second best Tapu, above Bulu and Fini.
 
On a side note, Tapu Koko doesn't suck and is still worthy of its A rank. It is still a very good offensive pivot and can still dent teams with a 190 base power(correct me if I am wrong) Gigavolt Havoc+Electric Terrain Z move, with U-Turn and Taunt to give momentum and utility to the team. The banning of Mega Metagross helped it alot, having one less counter to it. It is still very good and viable, arguably being the second best Tapu, above Bulu and Fini.
wut

mega metagross is nowhere near a counter to koko. i wouldn't even call it a check. calling mega metagross a counter is so wrong i can't even describe it

if your check to koko was ever metagross you deserve to lose to koko 10/10 times. the only notable effect of the megagross ban was the fact that kokogross (one of the best offensive cores) can no longer exist, so it lost one of its best partners.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Since Threw didn't say what rank Toxapex should drop to, I nominate Toxapex to drop to A-, the same rank as Chansey, or possibly even B+, seeing how easily pressured it is my common threats.
You cannot be serious.

I thought it was ridiculous enough someone mentioned to drop Toxapex. But to B+? The same rank as many Pokemon that often struggle to find themselves on a team? You realize that many of the premiere stall Pokemon are ranked A- on up, with Toxapex being ranked a bit higher due to its presence on balance and bulky balance builds. This whole notion of Tapu Lele is running wild is the most gas thing ever, and I hate newbies that succomb to this trap. Tapu Lele is not running rampant at all - for fucks sake Magearna has been much more popular and Pokemon such as Celesteela are still a major roadblock to it. Weavile's surge in usage hurts it too since the main moves Tapu Lele wants to spam, Psychic or Psyshock, do zilch to Weavile while Banded Pursuit does a fuckton when Lele switches out. A lot of good Toxapex teams have Pokemon like Celesteela, Chansey and / or Tangrowth as a potential backbone to make it incredibly difficult for the average team to bypass.

Though the introduction of newer threats definitely are an annoyance, there are other trends that favor it such as the drop in usage of Tapu Koko as well as having a myriad of ways to deal with Toxapex's issues. Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham always are a problem for fatter teams, but as of recent their success rate has been rather average in the meta as reflected by Mega Medicham dropping a rank and the possibility of placing Mega Heracross in B+.

Tl;dr version - enough gassing of Tapu Lele and I completely disagree with Toxapex's drop in viability.
 
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Threw

cohiba
When a Pokemon has a consistently good matchup against all of 1 of the offensive threats in the A ranks of this VR, sweeping it under the rug by saying there are "a myriad of ways to deal with Toxapex's issues" is silly. That's entirely the reason why people don't want to use Toxapex on BO/balance anymore - because its passivity and reliance on Scald burns to punish any sort of switch and its typing in a tier replete with Ground- and Psychic-type coverage gives it more problems than are worth building around. With the reasoning for its ranking you gave, it and Chansey should be switched. Chansey has been a great boon to balance for a while, being an actual answer to the most broken mon in the tier and just about every single other special attacker while even soft checking some stuff like band Zygarde if need be. Its defensive utility is unparalleled on any squad. Even Mega Sableye is at least as useful as Toxapex on these teams, because it can actually reliably spread burns and Knock shit off, which makes it way harder to take advantage of, while also completely controlling the hazard game and being a much better supporter of the team than Toxapex ever would be. Additionally, both Chansey and Mega Sab are more pivotal on stall builds than Toxapex is.

Just to be clear, this is not a nomination to raise Chansey and Mega Sab, just showing why i believe they should be treated as roughly equal.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
i think pex is fine in A because of the inherent restrictions it places on building from step 1, it's really one of the most influential mons in the tier because toxic spikes have never ever been so viable before and because of that, pex is one of the contributing factors in the tier that make poison types or removal near mandatory in the tier. not to mention its easy to support the annoying weaknesses it brings with it, especially by using equally or even more splashable mons like celes or gears to cover all the annoying shit that's rising and pex hates dealing with. the meta is also adapting to pex by using different removers, but pex is also adapting around them, running toxic to completely cripple things like mew or latios, even the more gimmicky (but still viable) option of infestation that lets pex trap and remove a lot of stuff from the game purely because of the ridiculous passive damage it forces.

toxapex is an extremely valuable mon in teambuilding because it checks so many dangerous threats while still being a massively threatening mon purely because of how easily it spreads poison and it just sits there and burns other steels/poisons. it's not that easy to beat despite being surrounded by grounds and psychics because grounds have to deal with a massive risk when it comes to handling pex in scald burns, pex lives pretty much any possible hit from grounds which is enough to allow it to fish for a burn once or twice a game due to how easily it abuses regenerator and pivots into very common mons. i think its flaws are being really overstated here and its strengths are just being put aside and not really looked at.

it may be worth re-looking at in a manectric meta, but i don't think that's the case because pex is one of the best manectric teammates right now anyway
 
I think that Conkeldurr deserves to be ranked for its Guts Flame Orb set that runs Facade. I'm really not gonna go to in depth, but basically it 2hkoes 90% of the tier on the switch with rocks up with Facade. It gives defensive teams big headaches because there's no mon actually bulky enough to take its hits, outside of Skarmory, and if it gets chipped even 15 percent it isn't a safe switch in anymore. Conk also has solid physical bulk, giving offensive teams problems too, since it can tank hits from mons like Zygarde or Bulu and hit hard as hell, and Mach Punch is some really strong priority. In fact, the combination of Facade or Drain Punch and Mach Punch can finish off a lot of offensive mons in the tier. Like I said I won't go too into detail. This post is probably pretty bad but I think I can get my point across that it's pretty unrivaled in its raw power and is a really efficient wallbreaker. I only have one replay and the dude's team was shit, but it shows how strong it is with the fact that it can 2hko really bulky shit like hippowdon and OHKO defensive starmie. Someone can probably back me up on this if they wanted to provide more replays because it really is good.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-587177420
 
I think that Conkeldurr deserves to be ranked for its Guts Flame Orb set that runs Facade. I'm really not gonna go to in depth, but basically it 2hkoes 90% of the tier on the switch with rocks up with Facade. It gives defensive teams big headaches because there's no mon actually bulky enough to take its hits, outside of Skarmory, and if it gets chipped even 15 percent it isn't a safe switch in anymore. Conk also has solid physical bulk, giving offensive teams problems too, since it can tank hits from mons like Zygarde or Bulu and hit hard as hell, and Mach Punch is some really strong priority. In fact, the combination of Facade or Drain Punch and Mach Punch can finish off a lot of offensive mons in the tier. Like I said I won't go too into detail. This post is probably pretty bad but I think I can get my point across that it's pretty unrivaled in its raw power and is a really efficient wallbreaker. I only have one replay and the dude's team was shit, but it shows how strong it is with the fact that it can 2hko really bulky shit like hippowdon and OHKO defensive starmie. Someone can probably back me up on this if they wanted to provide more replays because it really is good.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-587177420

To be fair, your opponent made quite a few mistakes he shouldn't have, and he was using a very...odd team for OU. As in: the only thing not UU by usage was Heatran, and his team isn't the best. Conkeldurr isn't a bad Pokemon by any stretch, but unless you have Knock Off it's completely ineffective against Ghost-types. That, and stuff like Magearna and Celesteela can come into it and knock it out. I know because I've fought them before with Celesteela, and M!Pinsir can have priority and Return.

I can see it maybe getting ranked, but not for Facade. Yes it can be hard if you can't counter/check it right, but it's not very relevant to OU due to the fact that OU has to account for types that have more bulk than Conkeldurr, and are faster.

That, and you also have to have a Defogger/way for Conk to not get a status that's different or to not get hit with Knock Off. If a Toxapex sets up two layers of Toxic Spikes before Conk starts, then you're not going to be able to use Conk nearly as well. If you come in on a Paralyze, then you may not move. It comes in on Spore/Sleep Powder, the opponent defeats Conk. It's just a bit too easy to handle since OU has a lot of status/hazards.
 
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Unranked -> C

Pursuittrappers are more common and easier to fit into teams these days. You might think I am talking about Weavile or TTar but I want to draw the attention to Krookodile, who is already a great Scarfer in UU.

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

I want to discuss why you should consider this mon over Weavile or maybe TTar. Scarf Krook has Intimidate, the better defensive typing out of those three and Stab on Earthquake which can help clean lategame. Krook resists Stealth Rock, does not bring Sand to your team which can be annoying and cannot be Volt Switched on. While Band Weavile and Band TTar have better matchups against Stall because of Icicle Flinch and Stone Edge/Crunch hitting Skarmory hard, Scarf Krook has the better offensive matchup. It reliably traps Mega Alakazam who is an incredibly common Mega right now because of Rain. In fact, even if there is nothing to trap, Krookodile is still useful for Intimidate to help taking hits easier for your other members.

Scarf Krook is also prob the least passive switch-in to Mega Mane and still puts Chansey into a lose Item - take chip situation in the Stall Matchup.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-587375131 Scarf Krook weakens MZam so I can win with MVenu lategame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-587385215 Pursuittrapped Mega Manectric to win with Autotomize Celesteela
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-587389837 Intimidate immensly helps me against DD Zygarde and Scarf Greninja; also Pursuittrapped Specs Gengar
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-587366705 Nothing to trap but Krook helps me scout the moveset of my opponent with Intimidate
 
To be fair, your opponent made quite a few mistakes he shouldn't have, and he was using a very...odd team for OU. As in: the only thing not UU by usage was Heatran, and his team isn't the best. Conkeldurr isn't a bad Pokemon by any stretch, but unless you have Knock Off it's completely ineffective against Ghost-types. That, and stuff like Magearna and Celesteela can come into it and knock it out. I know because I've fought them before with Celesteela, and M!Pinsir can have priority and Return.

I can see it maybe getting ranked, but not for Facade. Yes it can be hard if you can't counter/check it right, but it's not very relevant to OU due to the fact that OU has to account for types that have more bulk than Conkeldurr, and are faster.

That, and you also have to have a Defogger/way for Conk to not get a status that's different or to not get hit with Knock Off. If a Toxapex sets up two layers of Toxic Spikes before Conk starts, then you're not going to be able to use Conk nearly as well. If you come in on a Paralyze, then you may not move. It comes in on Spore/Sleep Powder, the opponent defeats Conk. It's just a bit too easy to handle since OU has a lot of status/hazards.
Ive been using the same team. No steel/rock type switches into Conk whatsoever. Usually it's fairy or ghost types and whatnot.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

-1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 141-166 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just a few calcs to show some common switch ins and whatnot. Facade is stupid strong and hits things that drain punch doesnt do enough too. it has enough bulk to tank a hit here or there and the priority is a God send especially when Lele usage is going down a bit.
 
To be fair, your opponent made quite a few mistakes he shouldn't have, and he was using a very...odd team for OU. As in: the only thing not UU by usage was Heatran, and his team isn't the best. Conkeldurr isn't a bad Pokemon by any stretch, but unless you have Knock Off it's completely ineffective against Ghost-types. That, and stuff like Magearna and Celesteela can come into it and knock it out. I know because I've fought them before with Celesteela, and M!Pinsir can have priority and Return.

I can see it maybe getting ranked, but not for Facade. Yes it can be hard if you can't counter/check it right, but it's not very relevant to OU due to the fact that OU has to account for types that have more bulk than Conkeldurr, and are faster.

That, and you also have to have a Defogger/way for Conk to not get a status that's different or to not get hit with Knock Off. If a Toxapex sets up two layers of Toxic Spikes before Conk starts, then you're not going to be able to use Conk nearly as well. If you come in on a Paralyze, then you may not move. It comes in on Spore/Sleep Powder, the opponent defeats Conk. It's just a bit too easy to handle since OU has a lot of status/hazards.
Wait, are you trying to imply that a flame orb Conkeldurr would not have Knock Off? Guts Facade basically makes it so you don't have to run specific coverage for stuff like fairies, so you can very easily be using Knock Off and not miss out on anything. Also' Magerna is taking over half from Drain Punch, so it's kinda shaky really. Celestella has an easier time, but it comes into Drain Punch, it too is not gonna do that well either.

Edit: wait no, pretty sure celestella also gets smacked hard enough it's actually a shaky switchin ( messed up doing calcs)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 207-244 (52 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 189-223 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

besides, it wouldn't be ranked for just Facade. It would be ranked because of a Gut's set that lets it hit really damn hard as well as have a reasonably strong priority move as a result.
 
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Gary

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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A- ---> A
B ---> B+
Added to B+
B ---> B+
C ---> C+
Added to C
Added to C
Added to C-

Drops
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A ---> A-


  • Mega Pinsir rising has been a topic of debate for quite some time now, but after reading over many of the posts in here as well as its high success rate in tour matches, we decided that it was definitely worthy of being considered one of the best megas in the tier atm alongside Mawile. Most of its checks are easily exploitable by Magnezone, easy to wear down, or in Zapdos case, killed by Edge variants. Its success on other builds has also started to increase, as it is no longer seen entirely on Webs.
  • Pelipper rose because of Mega Swampert's introduction into the tier. Since its release, it's been getting a ton of usage on the ladder for its ability to take advantage of a lot of common range checks, such as Mantine, as well as wear down the likes of Ferro, Growth, and keeps rain from being boned by Electrics. It also allows rain to potentially get up SR vs stall, considering that Sab risks being 2HKOed by Waterfall.
  • Weavile has been discussed quite a bit recently, but its being used a lot more as a strong offensive Pursuiter that can punch holes into teams with its spammable STABs. Its Speed tier and priority makes it very threatening for offensive teams.
  • Mega Garchomp rising might seem pretty random, because it's a rather uncommon sight. However, the small amount of usage it has gotten in tour has been rather successful, and we felt it was one of the better niche megas in the tier atm, compared to something like Pidgeot which faces fierce competition from Torn-T, and only being useful for its reliability. Mega Garchomp also faces competition from its non mega counterpart, but with teams no longer being so strapped to have a mega on every team, Mega Chomp is always a fine choice if your team lacks a mega and you want to make chomp a more potent breaker vs balance and even stall. Many forget that it can still be used outside of Sand teams, although it is appreciated. Its extra bulk is also a huge plus for better checking threats such as Zard-Y, non HP Ice Volcarona, etc.
  • Hawlucha has been seen a lot on rain recently for its ability to exploit potential rain checks while also abusing its ability to tear apart offense with its STABs.
  • The banning of Baton Pass hurt Dugtrio's niche a bit. While it is still standard on most stall builds as well as some others, it's definitely not comparable to the other Pokemon in A rank anymore.
  • Gengar dropped because of recent meta trends. The rise in Pursuiters such as T-tar and Weavile pressure its choiced sets, while fat steels like AV Magearna and Celesteela give it a lot of trouble as well.
  • Zapdos is still a very solid Pokemon, but the rise in T-tar has hurt its viability quite a bit considering that it baits it in practically for free. It also has a very poor match up against Mega Swampert rain builds which are all over the place atm.
Discussion Points

A- ---> B+
/
B+ ---> A-
C ---> C+

Sorry we don't have many discussion points this time. Not much else worthwhile has come up in discussion recently that we are considering. If we think of anymore we will add to it maybe next week.
 
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Mega Alakazam A- ---> B+ (Agree)

Even with the highest special attack in the game, it isn't really good anymore. It is extremely fragile, and it can't run Focus Sash like regular Zam. Also, the rise of persuit trapper like Weavile hurt this thing's viability.

Mimikyu B ---> B+
Alright, so I know we just had this discussion a little while ago. However, the main reason I would like to bring Mimikyu back to the table is Smeargle. It is arguably the best web setter around, and it rising to OU means more sticky web teams. As such, Mimikyu should get a rise.
 
Mega Alakazam A- ---> B+ (Agree)

Even with the highest special attack in the game, it isn't really good anymore. It is extremely fragile, and it can't run Focus Sash like regular Zam. Also, the rise of persuit trapper like Weavile hurt this thing's viability.

Mimikyu B ---> B+
Alright, so I know we just had this discussion a little while ago. However, the main reason I would like to bring Mimikyu back to the table is Smeargle. It is arguably the best web setter around, and it rising to OU means more sticky web teams. As such, Mimikyu should get a rise.
Smeargle rose to OU because of its usage this past month. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it being used more going forward just because its offically OU now.

In regards to Alakazam I tend to agree with the B+, however I did want to mention that pursuit trappers rising doesn't really hurt it as much as you would think seeing that it outspeeds the two most common pursuit trappers (weaville and tar) and kills them both with focus blast. that being said you have to actually hit a focus blast so yeah...
 
Could we get an explanation of Mega Garchomp's rise? It wasn't mentioned in the post and I'd like to know the reasoning.

Also gonna have to disagree with a Mega Alakazam drop. The rise in Magearna and Celesteela usage hurts it (it can use these to get Soul Heart and Beast Boost which is cool, but it definitely requires some chip), but the rise of Rain helps it. Rain is currently being spammed on the ladder and Mega Alakazam thrives off of it. It can Trace Swift Swim from Kingdra, Mega Swampert, or Kabutops, and then Rain falls apart (it even outspeeds Unburden Hawlucha if Rain is up and Mega Zam got Swift Swim). If Rain is on the rise, then Mega Alakazam has more of a justification to be used. Also as stated above, it's pretty difficult to Pursuit trap Mega Alakazam cause of its speed and Focus Miss. Speaking of Speed, it is the fastest Pokemon in the tier. It can force a lot of switches cause of its excellent coverage options (Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Energy Ball, HP Fire, Dazzling Gleam) which can give a free Sub, and Mega Alakazam behind a Sub is extremely scary and difficult to revenge kill. It can also run Calm Mind to serve as a win condition. I personally like 4 attacks Mega Zam with Energy Ball to toss Rain teams aside even easier, but I've been tossed by Sub and CM Mega Zam more times than I like to admit, and it's always been a solid Pokemon whenever I decided to use it. It also has a gimmick factor in Trace and you can copy some neat abilities with it like Regenerator, Beast Boost, and Protean. It's still A- worthy imo, and I disagree with the drop.

Gary edit: I added in the explanation sorry about that.
 
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Zygarde-10% C+ ---> B-
Even though Zygarde 10% is not as powerful attackwise as Zygarde 50%, it is very fast and can outspeed Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Thundurus.

Buzzwole C+ ---> B
I know this is kind of a huge jump but Buzzwole has potential. A specific set I used made it very powerful offensively and defensively
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 200 HP / 236 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
- Thunder Punch

With this set Buzzwole is guaranteed to live at least 2 Brave Birds from Skarmory after 1 Bulk Up and and has a good chance to 2HKO with Thunderpunch against Skarmory.

Calcs:
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 216-256 (58.2 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 236+ Atk Abomasnow Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-190 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Even though Zygarde 10% is not as powerful attackwise as Zygarde 50%, it is very fast and can outspeed Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Thundurus.
They actually have the same attack stat. 50% may run Adamant though, which 10% can't afford. Also, I believe that everyone here knows Zygardes speed tier. However, even if it outspeeds it fails to kill all of the mons you mentioned except Terrakion and likely gets OHKOed in return. It's also really hard to get in as unlike 50% it has like no bulk. Since every team should be prepared for Zygarde 50%, handling 10% will probably not be much of an issue. High usage on Tangrowth and Lando-T makes it hard to get the few opportunities that 10% has to count. All the B ranked mons seem less situational, so I think its fine in C+ (if not C).

I'm also not sure about Buzzwole rising back up, but the reasoning made when it dropped should still apply. But I'll leave that to the Buzzwole experts.
 
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