I understand your argument for the most part but the Ninjask example makes no sense at all. There is no way a bad mon would see that usage in a big tournament so tourney usage rates do give a really good look into the meta. The best/most versatile mons are the ones that get used the most and that is why I think it is important to mention when talking about Lati.
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
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The Ninjask argument is me adopting a usage-based argument (taking the same form of argument as you did), and showing why that argument is weak. If you want to talk about WCOP, talk about WHY it was useful, not the fact that it was used. There are plenty of times people cite WCOP win rates or WCOP usage stats of poorly viable/less viable mons (off the top of my head I wanna say Gengar was one of them a few months back, but my memory is hazy). My picking a bone with this argument is less about putting Latios down (which I did with my previous argument), and more about having strong, concise arguments in this discussion.
Instead of dropping Mew to A, I think that Latios should go to A. In bulky offensive teams I tend to prefer Latios because of Zard-Y. Mew is still the number 1 Defogger of the tier, but I just can't see Latios two sub-ranks behind it. Mega-Venusaur and Mega-Camerupt rises helps Latios in the current meta. I don't think Latios should be as the same rank as Skarmory.
Latios to A and Mew should remain A+
Latios to A and Mew should remain A+
As long as Webs retains viability, Shuckle is going to remain ranked. Smeargle is the better webber overall yes because of its utility, but Shuckle is a fine alternative as it is more reliable at getting up Webs and most teams will still perform the same. Even if Smeargle drops all the way down to C-, Shuckle will be there too.
I'm sorry but your example isnt the same at all and is a very bad comparion because its unrealistic. If anything I think high level matches is the best place to look at to understand the metagame. The gengar thing you were talking about I believe was from SPL and that was when Gar was at its best and its performance and usage in that tourney led to an a A ranking.
I wasn't really planning on writing a full thing on Latios because I was mostly just trying to agree with previous nominations but I can get into it a little more I guess to keep this from being a shitpost. Lati is offense's best means of hazard control, and in the current state of the metagame hazard control almost seems mandatory on everything outside veil/webs. Specifically the scarf set guarentees at least one defog vs any team archetype which is usually all you are going to need for a more offensive team. Soul Dew Lati is also the only reliable offensive zard Y check (and also one that doesnt get trapped by duggy). This is crucial because of how common Zard is and offensive teams generally don't want to be forced to use passive mons like pex or mantine. This is in addition to the stuff lati always did such as being a secondary water resist and ground immunity etc.
Edit: And for what its worth its one of the only decent swithins to Camel which is nice. Although Camel isn't like a top tier threat I still thought I'd mention it since he is racing up the rankings atm lol
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B+ up to A-
IMO, these two Pokemon scream A-. It was said that Pelipper rose above them because apparently Choice Specs can be used outside of Rain. I have never seen a Pelipper that's not paired with these two before, and I don't expect to. I don't see why I would use Choice Specs Pelipper outside of rain over Greninja-Ash, which is miles faster and has better offensive stats. While Pelipper has Drizzle to boost the power of its Hydro Pumps, Greninja-Ash's Hydro Pump still destroys anything that doesn't resist it bar AV Magearna, and as I said before, Greninja-Ash has a higher Sp. Attack stat anyways. Choice Specs Pelipper? Sure. Without rain? No.
Rather, being paired with Rain sweepers is what makes Pelipper a threat. Mega Swampert's Waterfall completely smashes anything that doesn't resist into bits. Even most of the things that do resist it can struggle against it. Ferrothorn falls to a couple of Power-Up Punches, and AV Tangrowth falls to a Power-Up Punch followed by an Ice Punch. Tapu Bulu and Latios completely fall to Ice Punch, while Toxapex falls to Earthquake. Really, only Suicune, Mantine and Alomomola are hard counters, and none of them are above B+. Kingdra is worse than Swampert-Mega but is still in a similar vein, it's basically only walled by Chansey, Mantine and Ferrothorn. Keldeo can't take a Draco Meteor, Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu can't take an Ice Beam, and it's just outright difficult to deal with after Rain has been set up.
So, in conclusion, the Rain sweepers are just as viable as the setter, and they should be moved up.
Also I can't stop myself from pointing this out: B- is a different font than the rest of the subranks
Mew A+-> A Completely disagree
Mew is still amazing right now because it can switch in to so many threats like zygarde and force them to switch out due to ice beam/will o wisp. It is also still the most reliable defogger in the game. I think there is absolutely no reason for this to drop.
Heracross A- --> B+ Disagree somewhat
Heracross doesn't see much usage but that doesn't take away from the fact that it has one of the highest attack stats in the whole game and it has great bulk. With so many threats to prepare for in the meta no one ever accounts for a mega heracross in teambuilding which makes it that much better.
Alolan Ninetales B- --> B Completely Agree
Aurora veil is amazing right now. That's all I really have to say because aurora veil is just really popular and this is obviously the leader for it. Nothing else I need to say.
Camerupt Mega C+ --> B- Completely Agree
The camel is amazing this gen. obviously with all the balance running around, camerupt is amazing as it is a balance breaker. On most balance teams, everything gets OHKOd by camerupt. Not to mention that this is one of the best trick room sweepers too and imo the only one that can rival mawile.
Latios --> A/A+ Couldn't agree more
Basically what everyone else said. One of the best defoggers, one of the only scarfers that can check volc, one of the only things that can switch in to zard y etc. Latios is just really good.
Mew is still amazing right now because it can switch in to so many threats like zygarde and force them to switch out due to ice beam/will o wisp. It is also still the most reliable defogger in the game. I think there is absolutely no reason for this to drop.
Heracross A- --> B+ Disagree somewhat
Heracross doesn't see much usage but that doesn't take away from the fact that it has one of the highest attack stats in the whole game and it has great bulk. With so many threats to prepare for in the meta no one ever accounts for a mega heracross in teambuilding which makes it that much better.
Alolan Ninetales B- --> B Completely Agree
Aurora veil is amazing right now. That's all I really have to say because aurora veil is just really popular and this is obviously the leader for it. Nothing else I need to say.
Camerupt Mega C+ --> B- Completely Agree
The camel is amazing this gen. obviously with all the balance running around, camerupt is amazing as it is a balance breaker. On most balance teams, everything gets OHKOd by camerupt. Not to mention that this is one of the best trick room sweepers too and imo the only one that can rival mawile.
Latios --> A/A+ Couldn't agree more
Basically what everyone else said. One of the best defoggers, one of the only scarfers that can check volc, one of the only things that can switch in to zard y etc. Latios is just really good.
man do you know what specs pelipper does?
B+ up to A-
IMO, these two Pokemon scream A-. It was said that Pelipper rose above them because apparently Choice Specs can be used outside of Rain. I have never seen a Pelipper that's not paired with these two before, and I don't expect to. I don't see why I would use Choice Specs Pelipper outside of rain over Greninja-Ash, which is miles faster and has better offensive stats. While Pelipper has Drizzle to boost the power of its Hydro Pumps, Greninja-Ash's Hydro Pump still destroys anything that doesn't resist it bar AV Magearna, and as I said before, Greninja-Ash has a higher Sp. Attack stat anyways. Choice Specs Pelipper? Sure. Without rain? No.
Rather, being paired with Rain sweepers is what makes Pelipper a threat. Mega Swampert's Waterfall completely smashes anything that doesn't resist into bits. Even most of the things that do resist it can struggle against it. Ferrothorn falls to a couple of Power-Up Punches, and AV Tangrowth falls to a Power-Up Punch followed by an Ice Punch. Tapu Bulu and Latios completely fall to Ice Punch, while Toxapex falls to Earthquake. Really, only Suicune, Mantine and Alomomola are hard counters, and none of them are above B+. Kingdra is worse than Swampert-Mega but is still in a similar vein, it's basically only walled by Chansey, Mantine and Ferrothorn. Keldeo can't take a Draco Meteor, Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu can't take an Ice Beam, and it's just outright difficult to deal with after Rain has been set up.
So, in conclusion, the Rain sweepers are just as viable as the setter, and they should be moved up.
Also I can't stop myself from pointing this out: B- is a different font than the rest of the subranks
this is what it does:
- water flying is a broken offensive typing and much better than water dark, like the only mon on the vr to resist it is rotom w and that still takes like 40 or something from surf/hydro, guys like fini and tang get ripped apart by specs hurricane. a much more reliable breaker than gren
- sets up its own rain for ez accurate hurricanes, while ofc there isn't as much potential for abuse as the damp rock sets, shenanigans can be had with other water types (but the typical rain sweepers are a poor choice because of how they get slowed down outside of rain)
- nothing sets up on this guy and you're not forced to bring it in to support your breakers because man pelipper is the breaker
Mega Camerupt for B-
It has a lot of the qualities of a B- mon. Flawed, especially because it's a mega, but has a definite niche in eating balance for breakfast (while still being able to threaten Stall outside of Chansey).
The Sheer power: Fire/Ground alone is great coverage, with fat Waters being the primary resist, but even they don't want to switch in directly. Sheer Force boosted Fire Blast and Earth Power coming off of 145 SpA hits very hard, with 252+ Fire Blast doing about 50% to Keldeo most of the time. 252+ Earth Power does over half to max HP Suicune (80% chance to 2HKO), so opponents have to be careful bringing in...anything.
The typing: Mega Camerupt is able to check/counter and come in on common high-ranking stuff like Magearna, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, Clefable, Mew, Toxapex, and Celesteela. That's a lot of A ranking mons who are nearly free switches in for Mega Camerupt (which is good because it's slow and not very fat). Being immune to Electric is great with Tapu Koko running around, and blocking Volt Switch is a nice bonus. Resisting Fire is also great in a meta with Fire-types everywhere.
The movepool: Mega Camerupt has several viable moves to run-the only mandatory ones are Fire Blast and Earth Power. Both of these already chunk resists for up to 50%.
Other viable options are Toxic (to hit fat waters on the switch like Mantine and Suicune), Yawn (hitting things like Mantine on the switch and forcing them to switch), Rock Slide (lets you check Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, and Mantine), Substitute (easing your prediction versus Offence/Balance and letting you wear down one or two mons since even resists take half their HP from a single Fire Blast or Earth Power), Hidden Power Ice (letting you do massive damage to Zygarde and Garchomp), and Nature Power (taking advantage of the omnipresence of Terrains to fire off a Sheer Force Boosted move; Grassy Terrain gives you Energy Ball which nails fat waters, Misty Terrain gives you Moonblast to nail Latios/other dragons, Electric Terrain lets you hit fat waters, and Psychic Terrain doesn't really do anything for you but yea).
Compare Mega Camerupt to other B- mons like Porygon Z and Nihilego, and it's clear that Mega Camerupt belongs with the likes of them and other situational megas like Mega Charizard X. Situational, but dangerous.
Speaking of that, Porygon Z should likely drop. Too hard to get a set up chance, Tyranitar being popular again sucks for it since outside of HP Fighting you can't hit it (and Mega Tyranitar sets up on you), and even at +1 all stats you're still outsped and KO'd by common stuff especially since you often take a hit before using the Z-move and thus are in range for 100/101+ scarfers to kill you. Your STAB options are pretty weak-Shadow Ball even with STAB and +1 isn't amazing and Electric Terrain boosted +1 Thunderbolt hits hard but fat grounds like Mega Camerupt are on the move up.
It has a lot of the qualities of a B- mon. Flawed, especially because it's a mega, but has a definite niche in eating balance for breakfast (while still being able to threaten Stall outside of Chansey).
The Sheer power: Fire/Ground alone is great coverage, with fat Waters being the primary resist, but even they don't want to switch in directly. Sheer Force boosted Fire Blast and Earth Power coming off of 145 SpA hits very hard, with 252+ Fire Blast doing about 50% to Keldeo most of the time. 252+ Earth Power does over half to max HP Suicune (80% chance to 2HKO), so opponents have to be careful bringing in...anything.
The typing: Mega Camerupt is able to check/counter and come in on common high-ranking stuff like Magearna, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, Clefable, Mew, Toxapex, and Celesteela. That's a lot of A ranking mons who are nearly free switches in for Mega Camerupt (which is good because it's slow and not very fat). Being immune to Electric is great with Tapu Koko running around, and blocking Volt Switch is a nice bonus. Resisting Fire is also great in a meta with Fire-types everywhere.
The movepool: Mega Camerupt has several viable moves to run-the only mandatory ones are Fire Blast and Earth Power. Both of these already chunk resists for up to 50%.
Other viable options are Toxic (to hit fat waters on the switch like Mantine and Suicune), Yawn (hitting things like Mantine on the switch and forcing them to switch), Rock Slide (lets you check Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, and Mantine), Substitute (easing your prediction versus Offence/Balance and letting you wear down one or two mons since even resists take half their HP from a single Fire Blast or Earth Power), Hidden Power Ice (letting you do massive damage to Zygarde and Garchomp), and Nature Power (taking advantage of the omnipresence of Terrains to fire off a Sheer Force Boosted move; Grassy Terrain gives you Energy Ball which nails fat waters, Misty Terrain gives you Moonblast to nail Latios/other dragons, Electric Terrain lets you hit fat waters, and Psychic Terrain doesn't really do anything for you but yea).
Compare Mega Camerupt to other B- mons like Porygon Z and Nihilego, and it's clear that Mega Camerupt belongs with the likes of them and other situational megas like Mega Charizard X. Situational, but dangerous.
Speaking of that, Porygon Z should likely drop. Too hard to get a set up chance, Tyranitar being popular again sucks for it since outside of HP Fighting you can't hit it (and Mega Tyranitar sets up on you), and even at +1 all stats you're still outsped and KO'd by common stuff especially since you often take a hit before using the Z-move and thus are in range for 100/101+ scarfers to kill you. Your STAB options are pretty weak-Shadow Ball even with STAB and +1 isn't amazing and Electric Terrain boosted +1 Thunderbolt hits hard but fat grounds like Mega Camerupt are on the move up.
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A minor thing to point out about this...
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null: 318-375 (96 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null in Rain: 340-402 (102.7 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null in Rain: 373-441 (112.6 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null: 228-268 (68.8 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null: 249-294 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keep in mind most run Modest on Pelipper, yet with a neutral nature it hits harder than Greninja-Ash overall with its STABs. Specs Pelipper hits deceptively hard.
Well, Greninja-Ash is faster, but it does not hit harder.
While I don't really have an opinion on the other nominations, I completely agree with Mega Camerupt rising to B-. I understand it just rose to C+, but B- sounds like a better spot for him. He absolutely decimates the Tangrowth/Toxapex/Celesteela core, and absolutely crushes balance like a bug. Magearna can't even touch this monster as it resists both of its STABS. It also has an immunity to its most reliable coverage move, thunderbolt, and Camerupt can destroy it with its 2 high powered stabs. It hits so much in OU for massive damage, so do NOT underestimate this threat.
I think you are thinking about splashability instead of viability. Dugtrio has S rank viability on specific team comps and imo we should rank mons on how viable they are in their best possible team not how much you can put it on every team.
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
While splashability should be a part of it, this is just straight up wrong. If this was the case, not only would Chansey be S, Duggy would likely even have its own rank akin to Pdon. However, it's not, and that's because splashability is a huge part of viability. If a mon destroys the entire metagame under certain circumstances or on a certain archetype but can't be fit anywhere else, how does that make them better than a mon which can fit on most teams and still do tons and tons of work even if they don't exactly sweep the meta? An absolutely perfect example of this is Zard Y vs Landorus Therian. Lando-T can be stopped, but can fit on just about every team while still putting in major work. Zard Y as we know breaks the whole meta but doesn't fit outside of certain builds.
That being said, Duggy has no place in S rank rn. I'll write more on why I think so later.
Your example with chansey has one critical error, which is that dugtrio is the part that is broken on that team, not chansey, thus chansey should not enter S either way.
In the context of just stall teams, Chansey's best possible team, you should never not use Chansey. Therefore, by your logic, Chansey should be A+ or even S because that's its viability on stall teams.
I mean you're pretty wrong here. If you take your argument and then replace Latios with any unviable mon, you can pretty obviously see why a usage based argument does not correlate with viability.
On top of things, pretty much every Zard-Y/Duggy core is also complemented by Ttar, so saying Latios effectively checks that core needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
I also agree with Mega Camerupt rising to B- rank.
It's surprisingly versatile. It has options like Stealth Rock, Substitute, and Nature Power all being viable 4th move options (I feel Camerupt needs Rock Slide in order to handle Zardy and Volc better), and as many have said before, it's just disgusting vs the standard bulky offense/balance cores that reside in the upper ranks. It's also able to fit on more than just bulky offense/balance teams. While Mega Mawile usually performs better as a Mega on Trick Room, Camerupt can still put in work on that playstyle with that 20 base speed. To top it off, it could actually work as an anti-TR mon as well, and not a whole lot of the TR staples besides Cresselia and Uxie can switch in safely on something this powerful.
It's surprisingly versatile. It has options like Stealth Rock, Substitute, and Nature Power all being viable 4th move options (I feel Camerupt needs Rock Slide in order to handle Zardy and Volc better), and as many have said before, it's just disgusting vs the standard bulky offense/balance cores that reside in the upper ranks. It's also able to fit on more than just bulky offense/balance teams. While Mega Mawile usually performs better as a Mega on Trick Room, Camerupt can still put in work on that playstyle with that 20 base speed. To top it off, it could actually work as an anti-TR mon as well, and not a whole lot of the TR staples besides Cresselia and Uxie can switch in safely on something this powerful.
What unviable mon is going to be the fourth most used mon? It isn't the same thing at all and is a very bad hypothetical example. And while there are some Zard-Y/Dug teams that also use TTar it's definitely not always included or even that common for that matter. It does seem like Lati to A has some steam so I'll leave it to other people to throw in their two cents now because I don't want to make the thread toxic lol.
In terms of discussion points I think Camerupt does belong in B-. A lot of people have already touched on it but it definitely outclasses the rest of the C rank and has a much larger niche than those mons being able to break a lot of the most common teams right now.
Hera should probably drop. It is never as threatening in battle as what it would seem like on paper. Also, clefable usage is the highest its been all gen which hurts its ability to break balance. If you don't crit Clef you can't even beat the teams it's supposedly best against.
Mew and Ninetales I am kinda indifferent about.
Mew is still a great utility mon for any team to have. It is incredibly splashable thanks to its ability to check and burn/weaken threats like Zygarde, Medicham, Mawile, Lando-T, and Bulu, while still having the ability to reliably Defog or even set rocks if needed. It is the most reliable defogger in the tier, and with spikes, toxic spikes, and veil being very common, Defog can be very valuable to so many teams. Mew also has unpredictability on its side, as it can run basically anything it wants as its last move, such as Ice Beam for Zyg/Bulu/Lando, Psychic for Pex, Earth Power for tran, and Volt Switch for momentum/Zard-Y. Despite this, Mew has suffered a bit recently. First off, Mew gives free switch ins to threatening Pokémon like Zard Y (as long as Mew isn't volt), Magearna, Heatran (as long as not EPower), and Volcarona. Because of its passive nature, it gives set up opportunity to mons like the aforementioned Volc, Heatran, and Magearna, as well as mons like Suicune (goddamn this mon is obnoxious) and CM Clef. But despite its passive nature, I still believe that it should remain A+, although that could easily change in the future.
With mons like Max Defense Clef and Pex being very common atm, Heracross has issues breaking through balance teams effectively. Because of its low speed too, it gets pressured really badly by faster stuff like Zard Y, Lele, Latios, Pinsir, Volc, and SSSS Lando. It really isn't used all too much, which could give it some sort of edge as almost no one will specifically prep for it, but as I said before it is checked by a lot of common mons atm. Not deserving of A- imo.
Veil is one of the most dominating team styles in the meta atm. Veil allows mons like Suicune, Mega Tar, Zygarde, and Magearna to flourish and easily set up and break through most teams, and Ninetales is the only real veil setter atm. Basically Ninetales is ranked based on Veils viability, and with Veil being very great atm, its fine to move to B imo.
I am a huge fan of the camel. Camel is an insane balance-breaker that takes advantage of common Pokémon like Magearna, Clef, Zapdos, and Mew, and uses all of them to fire off free Sheer Force boosted moves. Fire is still an insane offensive typing, and because of its dual STAB combo it makes Camel very hard to switch into. It can even utilize Nature Power to blow back answers like Mantine and Pelipper with an electric terrain Thunderbolt. Camel is a great Magearna check as well, which is huge since we all know how great that mon is. So due to its great typing, insane wallbreaking power, and ability to check great metagame threats, the Camel should rise to B-.
This is a nom that myself and others have made in the past, but it is one that I still would love to see happen. Basically everything I am going to say I said in my previous post on this, and I believe it still holds true. Gastrodon has the ability to check threats like Magearna, Koko, Greninja, Zapdos, and Mega Camerupt. It can spread status with Toxic and Scald burns, which can potentially cripple/wear down switchins like Bulu, Tang, and Latios. This also allows it to beat things like Mega TTar and Mega Lop with Scald burns. It also can act as a buffer vs. Vincune. Here is a replay that shows Gastro's effectiveness. Gastro is able to wall the Gren, Magearna, and Victini and is able to spread status throughout the team. I believe that Gastro fits better with B ranked mons like Mega Manectric than in B- with mons like Salamence.
I'm gonna echo a post by Vertex made a couple of weeks ago here since I think it sums up my thoughts on Koko perfectly. Z-Wild Charge sets blow through standard counters like AV Mage and Chansey, which can leave the door wide open for things like Ash Gren or Magearna to clean up. Specs Koko is a set that has been popping up recently as it blows through defensive Lando (which ca normally take a non specs HP Ice) as well as just giving it a lot more power. It pairs and assists many wallbreakers like Kyurem-B and Medicham thanks to U-Turn and Electric Terrain. I think Koko could fit in A+ rn. I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on this one, since I could see arguments for keeping it A or rising it.
A couple more quick side notes:
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Yeah this should definitely drop to C+. Everything about why this should drop was already said, so yeah, drop this.
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This nom caught my eye. I could definitely see it rising to B- but I haven't used it enough to give a full opinion on it. Definitely has potential, but I am gonna remain indifferent atm.
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I'm not sure how to feel about this. It is incredibly splashable, and it saw great usage in WCoP, but I cant really see it on the same level as Toxapex, Zard Y, or Mawile. Gonna have to disagree with a rise to A for Latios.
I agree with both drops / rises of
I'll speak on the noms I feel I can actually justifiably speak on. Aka not talking about M-Hera for example because I've literally never used it and very rarely play against it.
M-Camel C+ ---> B- Agree
Should come as no surprise to anyone who also a reader of the Metagame Discussion Thread since I have sung it's praises there. M-Camel blasts through so many top threats it's comical. Tang, Steela, Pex, Clef, Mew, Magearna, etc. Even its switch-ins can be damaged so badly if you make the right read that they are not longer effective switch-ins (Fini being 2HKO'd by EP for example, let-alone Nature Tbolt)
This brings me to what I have found to be the best Camel set, which is Sub. Personally I prefer Sub over Rocks because it is ludicrously easy to set Subs. Camel forces so many switches, which allows for a free Sub to scout what the opponent will use as their switch-in, and to then most likely deliver a crushing blow to said switch. And with how popular popular cores consisting of Camel-fodder are, many teams don't have an actual switch-in to Camel. Many of these mons are also baited in by good pokes to have on a team like Gren, Koko, Bulu, Magearna, etc. This makes it very easy to double into Camel and eviscerate the things that hold back those potent win-cons. All this and I haven't even touched on good defensive qualities to Camel like checking most Magearna and Koko sets.
Mew A+ --- A Disagree
I'm very on-the-fence about this given how passive Mew is. However, it is a good check to a lot of threats. Hazard removal is ludicrously difficult to find in this meta, and Mew is definitely the most reliable given its typing and bulk over Latios. And even Ttar, which should beat Mew, doesn't want to be burned by it. That being said, it is very very passive. Tough call but I will still say it should hang at A+.
Tapu Koko A ---> A+ Agree
Tapu Koko is still a premiere threat that easily dances around many would-be checks with it's speed and U-Turn, and from there you can run it in many different ways with pretty great viability in just about every option. The best in my book being Taunt + Gigavolt. That combo is very potent, especially with Terrain active. As for a fourth move, you can tailor it your team. For example, I run HP Ice to catch the plethora of quad-weak mons out there. I could have opted for BB, but I have M-Camel to answer for things like Tang, Bulu, and M-Venu. Or you could go with Roost for longevity. And then there's all the variations on the special set, which is also great. And whatever set you bring is augmented by the viability and power of the others, as your opponent won't know which it is until you actually start going to work with Koko.
I apologize for any typos or poor formatting, mobile ftw.
M-Camel C+ ---> B- Agree
Should come as no surprise to anyone who also a reader of the Metagame Discussion Thread since I have sung it's praises there. M-Camel blasts through so many top threats it's comical. Tang, Steela, Pex, Clef, Mew, Magearna, etc. Even its switch-ins can be damaged so badly if you make the right read that they are not longer effective switch-ins (Fini being 2HKO'd by EP for example, let-alone Nature Tbolt)
This brings me to what I have found to be the best Camel set, which is Sub. Personally I prefer Sub over Rocks because it is ludicrously easy to set Subs. Camel forces so many switches, which allows for a free Sub to scout what the opponent will use as their switch-in, and to then most likely deliver a crushing blow to said switch. And with how popular popular cores consisting of Camel-fodder are, many teams don't have an actual switch-in to Camel. Many of these mons are also baited in by good pokes to have on a team like Gren, Koko, Bulu, Magearna, etc. This makes it very easy to double into Camel and eviscerate the things that hold back those potent win-cons. All this and I haven't even touched on good defensive qualities to Camel like checking most Magearna and Koko sets.
Mew A+ --- A Disagree
I'm very on-the-fence about this given how passive Mew is. However, it is a good check to a lot of threats. Hazard removal is ludicrously difficult to find in this meta, and Mew is definitely the most reliable given its typing and bulk over Latios. And even Ttar, which should beat Mew, doesn't want to be burned by it. That being said, it is very very passive. Tough call but I will still say it should hang at A+.
Tapu Koko A ---> A+ Agree
Tapu Koko is still a premiere threat that easily dances around many would-be checks with it's speed and U-Turn, and from there you can run it in many different ways with pretty great viability in just about every option. The best in my book being Taunt + Gigavolt. That combo is very potent, especially with Terrain active. As for a fourth move, you can tailor it your team. For example, I run HP Ice to catch the plethora of quad-weak mons out there. I could have opted for BB, but I have M-Camel to answer for things like Tang, Bulu, and M-Venu. Or you could go with Roost for longevity. And then there's all the variations on the special set, which is also great. And whatever set you bring is augmented by the viability and power of the others, as your opponent won't know which it is until you actually start going to work with Koko.
I apologize for any typos or poor formatting, mobile ftw.
NG Spencer
Banned deucer.
I agree with koko up to A+
Koko has always been good in the meta, but now however, people are experimenting with new sets. Rather than using magnet, players are opting for z wild charge to bypass counters to the magnet set such as av mag and chansey. To me, koko has been A+ worthy for a while thanks to it's wide range of moves consisting of tbolt, wild charge, thunder, volt switch, dazzling gleam, hp fire, hp ice, u turn, brave bird, nature's madness, taunt and roost. What held it back was people using the same old magnet set and not breaking the mold. It has many viable items it can run that dictate what role it can fulfill on your team such as life orb, magnet, choice scarf, electrium z, even specs has seen usage. You can customize this mon to beat many would be checks thanks to it's movepool and versatility, here's a koko set I made to deal with shit that would annoying it:
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 208 Atk / 108 SpA / 192 Spe
Naive Nature
- Wild Charge
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost
208 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 339-399 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
108 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 187-224 (53.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Speed is for gren btw, the team it's on has venu so I'm not worried much about opposing koko and maybe I'm dumb, but I can't think of anything else koko would need max speed for.
tl;dr now that other sets are being used, koko is more threatening and should rise.
Koko has always been good in the meta, but now however, people are experimenting with new sets. Rather than using magnet, players are opting for z wild charge to bypass counters to the magnet set such as av mag and chansey. To me, koko has been A+ worthy for a while thanks to it's wide range of moves consisting of tbolt, wild charge, thunder, volt switch, dazzling gleam, hp fire, hp ice, u turn, brave bird, nature's madness, taunt and roost. What held it back was people using the same old magnet set and not breaking the mold. It has many viable items it can run that dictate what role it can fulfill on your team such as life orb, magnet, choice scarf, electrium z, even specs has seen usage. You can customize this mon to beat many would be checks thanks to it's movepool and versatility, here's a koko set I made to deal with shit that would annoying it:
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 208 Atk / 108 SpA / 192 Spe
Naive Nature
- Wild Charge
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost
208 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 339-399 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
108 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 187-224 (53.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Speed is for gren btw, the team it's on has venu so I'm not worried much about opposing koko and maybe I'm dumb, but I can't think of anything else koko would need max speed for.
tl;dr now that other sets are being used, koko is more threatening and should rise.
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