Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Donphan Trumpcard]

Marowak-Alola: from B+ to C+

It's hard to take anything you say after this (i.e. your entire post) seriously when you nominate a mon to drop 3 subranks. When has a mon ever dropped more than one subrank in a single update, unless a new mon was introduced that almost entirely eclipses it or a move vital to its viability is banned? This goes for a few posts, where someone doesn't like a mon so they nominate it to drop an insane amount. While you might have some good points, you should probably use them to say why Marowak shouldn't rise, or why it should drop to B, and then it will be taken more seriously.

That being said, Marowak is not an outclassed Charizard-X. There are certainly things that Zard does better, but Zard can't as reliably take on Koko, Clefable, and Magearna, loses to Dugtrio (which means he has a hard time checking a lot of things he wants to). Meanwhile, Alowak can cause massive damage to stall by escaping Dugtrio. You mention the hazard problem but Zard has a worse hazard problem, albeit he has recovery to deal with. You mention the Lando problem but Charizard has a big Lando-T problem as well, since it leaves it with far more health intact after a single hit unless it wants to lose a ton of health for flare blitz:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 124-147 (38.8 - 46%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 160-189 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Charizard does not block volt switch, so it is not a superior electric check in every way. It also doesn't resist the ice type coverage commonly seen on electric types. It does have recovery but that doesn't help you if they just spam volt switch into Dugtrio or something to force you out, take more rocks damage, rinse and repeat at a later point, and now Zard can't switch in anymore because it took 50% from rocks and another 25%+ from 2 volt switches.

Zard is also rather prediction reliant to deal damage early game before its checks are cleared. It doesn't have the spammability of shadow bone or the power behind it unless you're willing to sacrifice a ton of health. I don't want to go much more onto the topic of Zard-X because it usually is a pretty heated discussion that derails the thread.

You are right that Zard can do some things better, though I don't agree with all of them, and that Alowak might be better on paper than in practice, but C+ along with stuff like Primarina and Scolipede is an enormous stretch, as I don't think given the current state of the meta it should be anything below its current ranking of B+.

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

Marowak-Alola: from B+ to C+

Seemingly contrarily to the flow of the thread, I would like to nominate Marowak-Alola to actually move down a few ranks. Most arguments I've seen in its favor are either flat-out absurd, or solely based on theorycrafting (as opposed to actual practice). First of all, it's not as easy as it seems to keep hazards off the field. Every hazard removal is either hardly viable (such as Starmie or Tentacruel), vulnerable to entry hazards (Mew and Fini are prone to Toxic Spikes, Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock, etc). And Stealth Rock users are incredibly powerful, either offensively (Landorus-T, Garchomp), or defensively (Chansey, Ferrothorn, Clefable).

Marowak is absolutely useless against offensive teams. With 60 HP and 45 Speed, as well as an SR weakness, the only thing you can do in practice is to weaken Landorus-T and be a sacrifice fodder afterwards. Taking a look at all the things ranked at A- or higher, every offensive mon outspeeds, then either OHKOes with SR or U-turns out (with a few exceptions, such as Magearna who still does over 50% with Fleur Cannon). Even the threats it's supposed to check still beat it with coverage moves or simply outlast it. Also, look at the A-/A/A+ threats again, and ask yourself whether you really want to give free turns to the following Pokémon: Landorus-T, Greninja(-Ash), Heatran, Zygarde, Garchomp, Keldeo... list goes on. And I'm not even gonna go on about how it becomes even less effective against Rain Offense teams.

Against balance/stall teams, I can see it being remotely useful. Even then, it's still not a guaranteed win, considering it's vulnerable to Toxic and is absolutely demolished by every form of entry hazards including Toxic Spikes and, again, a weakness to Stealth Rock. Also, Flare Blitz recoil will add up really fast, unless you either run Rock Head, which will make you even more useless against Koko, Zapdos, Magearna, etc, or run Fire Punch, which deals no damage to the likes of Chansey/Landorus-T. And not to mention if it eats an unpredicted Knock Off from the likes of Clefable, Tangrowth, etc, then enjoy your lower-than-Latios base attack for the rest of the game. Even if your team is seriously that weak to stall, I don't see how Marowak does any better than Sub NP Hoopa, or even Sub CM Chandelure; both of which aren't even ranked.

Lastly, if a Fire type that also checks Electric Pokémon is needed, Charizard-X is IMHO superior in every aspect, since it's much faster, has recovery, access to Dragon Dance, and is generally extremely strong against some of the meta teams (the Mew/Celesteela/Toxapex cores, Tapu Lele teams, variations of that bro fist team with Venusaur, that FLCL team with Pinsir). I legitimately cannot see what Marowak has over it outside of the fact that it doesn't take up a mega slot. And if it's B-, then Marowak shouldn't really be ranked above it.

I understand my opinion might be flawed as I've only played around 100 S/M OU games, so I can easily be convinced otherwise, but before that I want to see a handful of high-level replays where Marowak was used and made a positive impact.

While I appreciate your effort to construct an argument as to why alolan marowak should be dropped, I find that several aspects of your argument are flawed. You mention that the available rapid spinners are quite poor choices in the metagame, and that the good hazard removers in mew, fini, and zapdos are particularly vulnerable to certain hazards, and while this is true, the way in which you state this implies that removing hazards from your side of the field is a near impossibility, which it clearly is not, as competent players should be able to remove hazards at least once a match unless they are facing hyper offense, which isn't the best playstyle in the current metagame.

You mention that alolan marowak has poor matchups against most of the pokemon in the A Ranks, in addition to landorus-t. You also mention that alolan marowak is worn down very easily, cannot take on many of the pokemon it is meant to check, and requires extensive support in order for it to be at its full potential, but you are looking at this in a vacuum. Many pokemon, such as zard y and suicune, require specific support in order to succeed, and with that said, the fact that alolan marowak mandates hazard removal and often appreciates pivot support via u-turn or volt switch is not anything new in the metagame. Alolan marowak is a threat in the metagame because its mere presence on the opposing team deters koko and manectric from spamming electric moves, even halting momentum from the latter, all while serving as a check to the aforementioned pokemon, along with several other notable threats such as magearna, mew, volcarona, tangrowth, and zapdos. Defensive landorus-t may give marowak a hard time, but the chip damage provided by shadow bone is very valuable in the long run for teammates such as zygarde. The pokemon you mentioned which marowak has poor matchups against are capable of beating it in a 1v1 situation, however most of them cannot switch into marowak at all, and this particular statement convinces me that you are looking at marowak's viability in a vacuum.

Alolan Marowak is not comparable to other mons like cm chandelure and subnp hoopa, and zard x. This is simply because unlike the former two, marowak has very useful applications outside of beating down stall, the most notable being a check to a noticeable portion of threats in the metagame, while offering additional utility in the form of stealth rock and will-o-wisp, which is very useful for any serious team. You claim that zard x outshines alolan marowak in several ways, but in reality, zard x requires more support to do its job because of the fact that the common presence of checks such as tapu fini and toxapex more often than not halt it from sweeping. Unlike zard x, marowak's presence is immediately threatening because it can do a sizeable amount of damage to its checks, or any threat on the field for that matter, which makes it a lot more consistent in terms of performing its role in the metagame and not being dead weight a noticeable amount of time. Lastly, you mention that you have only played roughly 100 gen 7 OU battles, and this ultimately makes your post questionable because it convinces me that you do not have enough knowledge of the metagame or alolan marowak itself.

I apologize if this post seemed like it was aggressive or abrasive, but I just do not think you truly understand alolan marowak's role in the metagame enough to be making ranking nominations, especially since nominations here normally do not drop pokemon 3 subranks.

 

[tigers jaw]

latias deserves to rise, no way is it a whole rank's worth of viability worse than latios.

it basically does everything that latios does whilst providing healing wish, which is huge for a lot of common bulky offence teams that need removal+scarfer+zardy check/secondary water resist (the teams on which you'd use scarf latios). things tend to get worn down and overwhelmed on these kinds of teams so so quickly in the current meta, making healing wish such a great safety net in many matchups. the power difference is notable in scenarios such as vs. mega lopunny and greninja, as both psyshock and draco, respectively, are rolls, unlike with latios, but i don't think that the power difference between two pokemon that do the same thing realistically matters that much. i find it so easy to throw on a latias to so many teams these days, and the somewhat surprising amount of usage latias saw in wcop and thus far on ladder for olt is indicative of other players feeling the same. cool mon.

a few other things i think should be looked at for potential raises are: gastrodon, manaphy, mega lopunny, mega venusaur, and mantine. i'm most sure about manaphy and gastrodon with regards to these. manaphy is hardly splashable and only really is found/fits on one team archetype (veil), but it's so devastating under it, i find it to be the most threatening member on that team. for it to be below mega sharpedo, nidoking, and azumarill is laughable. gastrodon is a really solid pick for many of the current boring as fuck balances looking for an alternative to toxapex that beats largely the same stuff yet has a better matchup vs. electrics and almost all magearna; it's also fairly hard to switch into considering the risk of scald burn and toxic being on every set. the other ones should be pretty self-explanatory or have already been discussed.

 

[radianthero156]

That being said, Marowak is not an outclassed Charizard-X. There are certainly things that Zard does better, but Zard can't as reliably take on Koko, Clefable, and Magearna, loses to Dugtrio (which means he has a hard time checking a lot of things he wants to).

Neither can Marowak? Koko U-turns out, Clefable Knocks Off, Magearna outspeeds does over 50% with Fleur Cannon (let alone a Z move), Dugtrio Pursuits.

Meanwhile, Alowak can cause massive damage to stall by escaping Dugtrio.

If the stall really is that weak to Marowak, the Dugtrio is expected to have Pursuit, which OHKOes after SR unless you win the 50/50. Zard-X meanwhile can outplay Dugtrio by holding off its mega evolution, or DDing and outspeeding, or even tanking an Earthquake if healthy enough.

You mention the hazard problem but Zard has a worse hazard problem, albeit he has recovery to deal with.

And a 328 speed Roost more than makes up for an extra 25% damage only in the first turn it's sent in, and that if SR is up before it mega evolves. I don't see at all how Zard has a worse hazard problem.

You mention the Lando problem but Charizard has a big Lando-T problem as well, since it leaves it with far more health intact after a single hit unless it wants to lose a ton of health for flare blitz:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 124-147 (38.8 - 46%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 160-189 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What's the point with these calculations? If anything they only show how Landorus-T cannot check Charizard as safely as it can Marowak, as the former will outspeed and KO with Flare Blitz, and the latter is immediately threatened.

Charizard does not block volt switch, so it is not a superior electric check in every way. It also doesn't resist the ice type coverage commonly seen on electric types. It does have recovery but that doesn't help you if they just spam volt switch into Dugtrio or something to force you out, take more rocks damage, rinse and repeat at a later point, and now Zard can't switch in anymore because it took 50% from rocks and another 25%+ from 2 volt switches.

The most common electric type, Tapu Koko, runs U-turn and literally does the same thing to Marowak. Off the top of my head, the only other common electric Pokémon that spams Volt Switch are Rotom-W, who also outspeeds OHKOes Alowak but not Zard, and the less common Manectric and Volt Switch Zapdos.

Zard is also rather prediction reliant to deal damage early game before its checks are cleared. It doesn't have the spammability of shadow bone or the power behind it unless you're willing to sacrifice a ton of health.

Marowak is not as brain-dead easy to use as you're making it seem. When you're facing a Ferro or Tang, you can't simply click Shadow Bone and risk eating a Knock Off. And if you throw a Fire Punch into a water or dragon type, you'd better have respectively a good Scald switch-in or a specific counter. I'd argue it requires as much prediction as Zard.

You are right that Zard can do some things better, though I don't agree with all of them, and that Alowak might be better on paper than in practice, but C+ along with stuff like Primarina and Scolipede is an enormous stretch, as I don't think given the current state of the meta it should be anything below its current ranking of B+.

Primarina is trash and overrated in C+, and the Scolipede comparison makes no sense at all because it's a supportive threat rather than an offensive one; and the other Pokémon in C+ (namely Aero, Gyara, Manaphy, Dragonite) are really strong in specific situations, which I believe is the definition that fits Marowak the best. About "current state of the meta", I really don't think being checked by the number 1 most used mon, outsped and OHKOed/2HKOed by every offensive threat, and crippled by 90% of the defensive ones is something worth of B-, let alone A-.

 

[strengthofheart]

About "current state of the meta", I really don't think being checked by the number 1 most used mon, outsped and OHKOed/2HKOed by every offensive threat, and crippled by 90% of the defensive ones is something worth of B-, let alone A-.

Sir/Madam, Garchomp is also checked by the the number 1 most used mon in the meta, and checked much harder than Alowak as a matter of fact. You are spinning your arguments to look at all the negative qualities and situations that Alowak would not perform well in and judging its viability based solely on that. Come on.

 

[earl]

Primarina is trash and overrated in C+, and the Scolipede comparison makes no sense at all because it's a supportive threat rather than an offensive one; and the other Pokémon in C+ (namely Aero, Gyara, Manaphy, Dragonite) are really strong in specific situations, which I believe is the definition that fits Marowak the best. About "current state of the meta", I really don't think being checked by the number 1 most used mon, outsped and OHKOed/2HKOed by every offensive threat, and crippled by 90% of the defensive ones is something worth of B-, let alone A-.

While I'm not going to go through the entirety of your post (I'm sure others would gladly do so), but I feel as if this statement in particular shows a lack of meta knowledge. You claim that the scolipede comparison makes no sense as it is "a supportive pokemon", yet its best set is its SD Z-Aqua Tail set? Scolipede makes a subpar (really bad) suicide lead, and I don't see any other way in which it could be considered "supportive".

 

[Night Train Lane]

You asked for a replay for some reason: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-301426

Here we see TDKs team have nearly everything youve brought up against Maro. He has Mage (for some reason you keep acting like this beats Maro, when Fleur hasnt been a staple since like week 4 of SM) His Tang actually gets to Knock Maro off, which again, you keep citing this move as if it completely nullifies it. He also has Keldeo and Pinsir. Hell, he even has defensive Lando. Yet its able to come in repeatedly and click one of its STABS and get 5(?) kills.

The speed is negligable when everything you beat literally cannot do more than 15% to you. Things like Gren get OHKOd by Blitz after rocks and Keldeo can only come in once if you click Shadow Bone.

i also dont know why you guys are entertaining his charX and Maro comparison.
Sharing a typing cannot be the only quality that they share in order to be compared. Literally the only thing thats similar about these two is Fire type and dies to Earthquake, and before you bring up "electric resist" no lol

EDIT: yeah that shit got 5 kills good lord

 

[S. Court]

Neither can Marowak? Koko U-turns out, Clefable Knocks Off, Magearna outspeeds does over 50% with Fleur Cannon (let alone a Z move), Dugtrio Pursuits.

I just want to point a detail here: Yes, Koko can U-turn it, but that means you need to bring another Pokemon to take a hit, and that's an actual trouble because switching against a Pokemon with 568 of attack with no harm it's complicated, to say it at least, specially due to Alolan-Marowak's good STAB combination.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your points, but even with the fact Koko can escape, Alolan Marowak is still making its job of punishing foe's attempt to use Tapu Koko

 

[volx757]

Neither can Marowak? Koko U-turns out, Clefable Knocks Off, Magearna outspeeds does over 50% with Fleur Cannon (let alone a Z move), Dugtrio Pursuits.

....

If the stall really is that weak to Marowak, the Dugtrio is expected to have Pursuit, which OHKOes after SR unless you win the 50/50. Zard-X meanwhile can outplay Dugtrio by holding off its mega evolution, or DDing and outspeeding, or even tanking an Earthquake if healthy enough.

....

What's the point with these calculations? If anything they only show how Landorus-T cannot check Charizard as safely as it can Marowak, as the former will outspeed and KO with Flare Blitz, and the latter is immediately threatened.

...

Primarina is trash and overrated in C+, and the Scolipede comparison makes no sense at all because it's a supportive threat rather than an offensive one; and the other Pokémon in C+ (namely Aero, Gyara, Manaphy, Dragonite) are really strong in specific situations, which I believe is the definition that fits Marowak the best. About "current state of the meta", I really don't think being checked by the number 1 most used mon, outsped and OHKOed/2HKOed by every offensive threat, and crippled by 90% of the defensive ones is something worth of B-, let alone A-.

You admitted to not having played that much in this meta, and there are definitely some things you've got wrong about the current state that would become clear through more playing.

252 Atk Dugtrio Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 136-160 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not even close to an OHKO. Banded dugtrio gets an OHKO after SR if you don't stay in, but that's not the duggy on stall, or even really used since groundium-z is just better. Also Alowak is very customizable and can run varying degrees of bulk/speed (even affording to dip into it's attack if it needs to cause it's so damn high) to handle what it's team needs.

Hide

.usage1695 dugtrio items
*TIBot:Focus Sash 60.811% | Choice Scarf 19.093% | Groundium Z 16.241% | Other 3.856%

'What's the point with these calculations?' 'Neither can Marowak? Koko U-turns out'

Grouping these together cause the answer is the same. Alowak is a wall breaker. If it's getting in and firing off one powerful hit each time, it's doing it's job. I don't know how many alowak you've faced, but it is an incredibly difficult mon to switch into, especially once your defensive landot has already done so once already. Anything that switches in gets worn down pretty quickly.


'Scolipede comparison makes no sense at all because it's a supportive threat rather than an offensive one'

Yeah mentioned above, but this is a red flag, since Scoli hasn't played a supportive role since baton pass was banned earlier this year. Waterium-z sweeper is essentially its only viable OU set right now.

 

[Dreadfury]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-301426

Here is your slice of replay with a side of Alolan Marowak.

As others - myself included - have previously said, it can be argued that Alolan Marowak fully deserves to rise to A-. This replay is excellent as it fully showcases its power against a very typical OU team with Magearna, Lando, Mew, and the works.

What truly stands out to me here is the fact that even after its Thick Club was removed incredibly early in the match it was still able to force a metric ton of switches and it managed to beat over half the opponent's team on its own. By virtue of its incredible typing, abilities, and natural bulk it's still terrifying to be up against. It sponges common Ice, Steel, Fairy, and Electric moves and Will-o-Wisp well and with its STABs and Bonemerang alone it threatens a good portion of the tier.

Now, regarding the whole "Tapu Koko can U-turn out" statement from earlier; yes, of course it can. But because Alolan Marowak is functionally a wallbreaker that has incredibly few reliable switchins all that means for the opponent is that Marowak is probably taking something else out instead. If its item is still intact it's able to 2HKO half the tier. It gets Swords Dance for fatter teams. And even though Lightning Rod is the better ability most of the time having Rock Head+STAB Flare Blitz to surprise would-be answers is still relevant enough to be mentioned.

If the wallbreaker is predicting and forcing switches and getting its hits in, it's doing its job of being a wallbreaker perfectly. Alolan Marowak doesn't deserve to drop, let alone by a whopping three subranks.

 

[TURBODERP]

The fact that Zard X gets trapped by non-Pursuit Dugtrio is also a big deal. Tapu Koko U-Turns or Volt Switches on the Zard X switch in and goes in Dugtrio and that's a dead Zard X. Alolan Marowak not being as vulnerable to Dugtrio is pretty damn big.

Also, the opportunity cost of Zard X is pretty huge given that we're comparing a non-mega to a mega.

 

[Dreadfury]

The fact that Zard X gets trapped by non-Pursuit Dugtrio is also a big deal. Tapu Koko U-Turns or Volt Switches on the Zard X switch in and goes in Dugtrio and that's a dead Zard X. Alolan Marowak not being as vulnerable to Dugtrio is pretty damn big.

Also, the opportunity cost of Zard X is pretty huge given that we're comparing a non-mega to a mega.

While you're not wrong, I'd argue Zard X is a bit more difficult to compare to Alolan Marowak. The latter can't be trapped whatsoever, but the latter is also incredibly linear and predictable (not that it would affect a rise, honestly; as many of us have repeated numerous times over, Alolan Marowak is awesome) compared to Zard X, which is a living prediction war as soon as it shows up on the Team Preview. Plus, although it's revenge killed by many Dugtrio variants and the tier is infested with Toxapex and crazy Ground types outside of Dugtrio it's still a hard-hitting Dragon Dancer or potential wallbreaker with a pretty comparable typing. So while you know what Alolan Marowak is going to do more often than not you don't know if that Charizard in the team preview is a Zard Y or a Zard X. And if Zard Y is good - which it currently is - then that makes the threat of accidentally losing to a random Zard X quite real.

I'm not saying Zard X is amazing right now. Its role in OU isn't particularly unique and it takes up a Mega slot you could be using on OU staples like Zard Y, Mawile, etc. or things with notable niches like Camerupt. But it's still very difficult to actually deal with because it has a very viable Mega counterpart and a very dubious base form, neither of which find themselves trapped by Dugtrio.

 

[Charmflash]

I'll be giving my 2 cents on a few mons I think should rise/drop

A+ --> S
Dugtrio is a meta-defining pokemon. As a staple on every stall, Zard-Y and psychic-spam team I think the combination of Arena Trap and Groundium-Z should bring this mon to S rank as it fulfills its job way too efficient paired with VoltTurn or eject button support. I also believe that Arena Trap as an ability has no future in the OU tier.

A+ --> A
Mew is a great Pokemon, being able to counterplay some key elements in the tier such as Mega-Medicham, Zygarde, Hazards etc., however, it is extremely passive which allows pokemon such as Ash-Greninja, Heatran and fire types in general to take advantage of it. As Mega-Medicham declines in usage, I think Mew should drop a rank since it faces competition from its proactive counterpart Latios.

A- --> A
Latios is the best offensive user of Defog in the tier and brings very interesting utility and flexibility to every team. It can run a variety of Items and threaten every team archetype. I would like to mention the move Surf in particular as this allows Latios to pressure hazard setters such as Heatran and Landorus-T immensely while hindering Ttar from trapping it.

B --> B+
This mon is just a really solid user of Defog who brings a unique defensive typing to the table, being able to handle stuff such as most Zard Y (+duggy), Volc and Mega-Camerupts, Greninja etc. to the point where I would like to see it rise.

C+ --> B-
Solid answer to current metagame threats, other megas such as Zard Y and Pinsir + fighting megas specifically.

C --> B
Good role compression and alternative to Heatran (with obvious advantages and disadvantages) as a strong fire type not weak to Stealth Rock. Offensively this is a powerhouse and it offers a ton of defensive utility. With the rise of Magearna thx to the MMeta ban answers to Magearna are also very appreciated. Absolutely destroys every steel type in the game and Nature Power is phenomenal as it pairs well with Tapu Bulu and/or Tapu Koko regardless.

C- --> B-
Slick scarfer, my opinion is basically the same as njnp's I couldnt of said it any better.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

it's lit

The time has finally come for me to nominate this esteemed Pokemon for a rise. I know I've only ever discussed how absolutely horrible it is, but recently I've had a change of heart thanks to a divine flash of inspiration. So, I propose the following change:

Nihilego: B- -> A+

Little did Gary know, I'm even more ambitious than he thought.

This nomination shouldn't be controversial. On paper, Nihilego has a solid niche as a Choice Scarf user, able to revenge kill a plethora of top tier threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Mega Pinsir. In practice, it's even more deadly since it can actually sweep entire teams provided its checks are worn down sufficiently. For instance, Chansey only needs to be chipped to 13% or so for Sludge Wave to pick it off. And people call this Pokemon weak? Furthermore, its expansive movepool allows it to threaten virtually every single one of its traditional checks. Hidden Power Ice is able to hit Pokemon such as Zygarde hard if your opponent decides to switch it in directly for some reason, while Hidden Power Fire can threaten steels such as Assault Vest Magearna, which can't switch into the move more than 6 or 7 times. You even have Thunder so you can miss on a 30% Toxapex that you absolutely need gone. (real talk though never run Thunderbolt that move is straight dong) And its other sets are also extremely effective. Choice Specs is a fearsome wallbreaker that still manages to lose to nearly everything the Choice Scarf set does, while hazard setting variants somehow make Toxic Spikes look balanced. I think this feat is fairly impressive in its own right.
And when we look at the Pokemon in A+ at the moment, Nihilego shares notable characteristics with all of them:

Celesteela: Nihilego is also an Ultra Beast

Dugtrio: Nihilego also has 0 physical bulk

Greninja: Nihilego can also learn a Poison-type move

Greninja-Ash: Nihilego can also clean up effectively under specific circumstances (like, really specific circumstances)

Heatran: Nihilego also gets trapped by Dugtrio

Mew: Nihilego is also dead weight against stall

Tapu Bulu: Nihilego also loses to Mega Scizor

Volcarona: Nihilego is also a Special attacker with no way to break Chansey

Zygarde: Nihilego also became OU in gen 7

And of course Nihilego has plenty of additional advantages and unique aspects that these Pokemon lack, such as overall cuteness / aesthetic appeal. See my profile picture if you aren't convinced.

Basically what I'm trying to say is drop this shitmon to C+

 

[strengthofheart]

A- --> B+

I just don't think it's as scary as it used to be. Mew is a hard stop to it and it's everywhere. A bunch of other mons (Gearna, Fini, Lele, Chomp, Lando, etc) can eat a hit and squash it right back. Ferrothorn and Heatran, pokes it should handle easily, carry Protect which causes way too many mind games and can potentially ruin Medi. Also, it requires VoltTurn and speed control support as it can't switch into much of anything and is a tad slow in a high speed meta. Even it's few resistances aren't super useful. Stone Edges will still do a fair amount and Fighting STAB is pretty uncommon these days anyway. For me, it requires too much support to be in the same league as the other mons in A-.

 

[mushamu]

A- --> B+

I just don't think it's as scary as it used to be. Mew is a hard stop to it and it's everywhere. A bunch of other mons (Gearna, Fini, Lele, Chomp, Lando, etc) can eat a hit and squash it right back. Ferrothorn and Heatran, pokes it should handle easily, carry Protect which causes way too many mind games and can potentially ruin Medi. Also, it requires VoltTurn and speed control support as it can't switch into much of anything and is a tad slow in a high speed meta. Even it's few resistances aren't super useful. Stone Edges will still do a fair amount and Fighting STAB is pretty uncommon these days anyway. For me, it requires too much support to be in the same league as the other mons in A-.

I disagree with this. Unthreatening as it seems, Mega Medicham can still be a threat. It still takes advantage of Pokemon that special attackers lure in, such as SpDef Celesteela, Heatran, and Chansey. Due to this, Mega Medicham pairs well with many special attackers such as Tapu Koko. Yeah, it does require a lot of support, but it takes advantage of its support very well, as it can take care of many Pokemon that come in on its teammates, such as Toxapex, Lando - T, and Chansey. Playing around Mega Medicham can be very difficult knowing that it could come in at any moment and collect a kill.

 

[Dreadfury]

Regarding a few of the newer nominations:

A+ --> S: Agree

Dugtrio in its current state is incredibly centralizing. While it technically lacks the versatility of Magearna and Lando its role is incredibly influential and incredibly unique. As I pThereviously mentioned when pushing for its rise to A+, there is no OU-viable threat that does what Dugtrio does to any extent. Nothing can guarantee the elimination of certain OU staples the way Dugtrio can, and nothing can customize its toolkit to target those specific threats quite like Dugtrio can. If Dugtrio was just a bog-standard Stall staple I'd disagree with such a nomination, but with Dugtrio making its way onto many different team archetypes including being an integral part of the exceptionally-powerful Zard Y+TTar+Dugtrio offensive core I can fully see it being at the level of Magearna and Landorus-T. As for whether or not Arena Trap has no future in OU... well, that's a different topic for a different thread.

(This is where I'd put a Nihilego GIF if I knew how to manually add GIFs)

The Nihilego gold-standard shitpost was pretty great. C+ is a good reflection of its niche as a fast hazard stacker but it's not at all on the level of the stuff that is either already in the B-tiers or that is being nominated to rise to or from them.

A- --> B+: Disagree

Mega Medicham is still an exceptionally-powerful wallbreaker. It gives several Stall staples a hard time and can tailor its kit to seriously threaten more offensive threats. The rise of Tapu Koko also gives it a tiny bit of a boost as it can fire off Terrain-boosted Thunder Punches more often. And even though it has relatively high opportunity cost as a Mega (it finds itself compared to Mawile a bit, I'd say) it still has its good speed and access to consistent priority, as well as a pretty good movepool and some ludicrously-strong STABs, going for it. I don't think it should rise but A- is still quite reasonable for it.

A+ --> A: Disagree

Mew is not an offensive Defogger. It's quite difficult to compare to Latios outside of the typing and that one move. As a very devoted Zygarde answer capable of spreading burns like a wildfire and something with an easily-tailored offensive moveslot to deal with all sorts of OU staples I'd say it's still quite fine in A+. Mew finds its home on Bulky Offense teams and performs incredibly well there...

A- --> A: Agree

...that being said, that doesn't mean Latios isn't bad either. As an offensive Defogger this thing is second to none. With its solid Speed tier to its high SpA and good movepool that includes solid STABs and decent coverage options where they're needed and utility moves like Trick to cripple defensive stuff with a Choice item Latios is looking really good in this meta, as it always has been.

I talked about Mantine and Mega Camerupt earlier. Both should rise, IMO.

C- --> B-: Agree (Somewhat)

This would be an incredibly large rise. That being said, its niche is way better now, since its speed tier and versatile movepool both make it a solid Scarfer. If B- is a bit of a stretch I still think it should rise at least a subrank or two.

I'm going to refrain from saying much about Mega Aerodactyl currently. I'm too busy riding on the Mega Camerupt hype train since I love that mon so much.

 

[strengthofheart]

A- --> B+: Disagree

Mega Medicham is still an exceptionally-powerful wallbreaker. It gives several Stall staples a hard time and can tailor its kit to seriously threaten more offensive threats. The rise of Tapu Koko also gives it a tiny bit of a boost as it can fire off Terrain-boosted Thunder Punches more often. And even though it has relatively high opportunity cost as a Mega (it finds itself compared to Mawile a bit, I'd say) it still has its good speed and access to consistent priority, as well as a pretty good movepool and some ludicrously-strong STABs, going for it. I don't think it should rise but A- is still quite reasonable for it.

I compare Mega-Medi and Mega-Hera as both are wallbreaking Megas with Fighting STAB. For me, Heracross has an easier time coming in and putting in work with less risk/support involved for it to perform effectively. Splitting hairs, but I prefer Heracross's reliability over Medicham's nukeability. I see how the right team support can make Medi a monster tho.

Regarding Dugtrio: mmm... idk. I need to put my thoughts together more adequately and play against it more, but I think S is a bit much for a mon with one niche. A key niche, but it's not in the same league of scary as Gearna or Lando.

 

[Reviloja753]

I compare Mega-Medi and Mega-Hera as both are wallbreaking Megas with Fighting STAB. For me, Heracross has an easier time coming in and putting in work with less risk/support involved for it to perform effectively. Splitting hairs, but I prefer Heracross's reliability over Medicham's nukeability. I see how the right team support can make Medi a monster tho.

Regarding Dugtrio: mmm... idk. I need to put my thoughts together more adequately and play against it more, but I think S is a bit much for a mon with one niche. A key niche, but it's not in the same league of scary as Gearna or Lando.

Like mentioned earlier, Dugtrio has been finding itself on teams that are not stall. ZardY + Duggy + TTar is a powerful offensive core in OU, and Dugtrio is also a great answer to stall rather than only being a part of it. Imo we need a Dugtrio retest but that's a topic for another day

 

[NG Spencer]

At work and on mobile so I'm not gonna go super in depth, might edit it if I remember to when I get home.

I agree with dugtrio to s rank. This mon is a staple on stall, being able to trap otherwise threatening mons like heatran and mawile. It also performs well against stall, being able to trap toxapex or chansey. Z eq hits pretty hard it can also trap weakened mons like zyg or chomp with a bit of chip

Mantine should rise for it's ability to switch into the increasingly common zardy while not being trapped by duggy. Mantine beats volc, so you don't have to run a scarfer. It remains one of the best answers to both greninja forms and shuts down rain abusers.

Finally a nom of my own: mvenu b -> b+
Venusaur has seen success in wcop for the utility it provides balance. Before I go further, I want to say that I believe the best moveset for venusaur atm is giga/sludge/eq/synth. Eq let's it beat heatran and doesn't lose to cm varients of gear. Sure it doesn't hit ferro and sciz, but ask yourself would you rather give subtran or ferro a free switching when using balance. Venu is the best bulu counter in the tier, while also taking on tons of other threats such as z wild charge koko. It counters non esens gren and can keep ash gren from evolving. It counters 4 att mawile who can bust through balance. Venu absorbs tspikes. Venu beats most tr teams with ease. Venu counters Zapdos, one of the most annoying mons for balance, and unlike tangrowth and mew, doesn't get poisoned by tspikes. This mon is so slept on, just use it and you'll see why a rise is overdue.

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

B ---> B+

B ---> B+

C ---> C+

C- ---> C+

Drops

B+ ---> B

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

C- ---> Unranked

• Mantine has been seeing quite a huge resurgence in viability recently due to the massive influx in Zard-Y usage. Mantine's defensive typing, reliable recovery, and immunity to Dugtrio's trapping abilities makes it one of the best Zard-Y switch-ins around. It also has great utility in Defog to support its teammates, as well as checking a few other prominent Pokemon such as both Greninjas, Keldeo, and Volcarona.
• Mega Venusaur has seen a spike in popularity as well for its ability to blanket check many annoying threats in the metagame such as Magearna, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Mega Mawile, and Greninja. While T-tar usage is still somewhat on the incline, a lot of teams just lack reliable ways to break Mega Venu atm, which makes it a bit more splashable and worth using. While Leech Seed variants are still common, many are beginning to forgo it for EQ, as it enables Mega Venusaur to actually 1v1 CM Magearna more effectively as well as prevent Heatran from setting up free Subs vs it.
• Mega Camel is surprisingly a very effective breaker in the current metagame that takes advantage of many of the common meta trends that's going on right now. Stuff like Mew, Tangrowth, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn basically let it in for free, it's able to snap the famous CeleClefPex core in half, and checking basically all variants of Magearna is icing on the cake. It's also a great user of SR because of the switches it forces as well as threatening Mega Sableye and Skarm/Zapdos on Double Defog stall.
• Infernape's big jump is best explained by NJNP's recent post, due to the fact that I myself haven't played around with it that much but can definitely see its merit as a Scarfer in the current metagame.
• Mega Gallade was sort of overhyped in the beginning. While it is a cool breaker that is able to punish some Mew builds, the massive influx in Clef is really hurting it in general, as it is only able to break Clef at +2 and takes a huge amount of damage in the process. Many players are just resorting back to using Mega Medicham because of its raw power as well as ability to break CeleClefPex more consistently without having to set up. Not being able to really touch fat Landorus-T is really annoying for it as well.
• Mega Gardevoir is a very niche breaker that faces a lot of competition from Lele and other Megas, so its viability heavily suffers because of it.
• Alolan Muk's trapping ability is no longer as useful with CB T-tar being the premier Pursuit user atm, and Lele usage no longer being as high as it was a few months ago. Its ability to check Zard-Y/Volcarona is worsened due to it being trapped by Dugtrio as well. On top of this, it has basically no real way of touching Landorus-T or Magearna, which can both use it as set up fodder.
• Sticky Web is falling heavily out of favor as an HO playstyle for Aurora Veil, which is why Smeargle dropped again.
• Bronzong is a Bakugan.

I decided on trying out something new where I show you the slate the VR council voted on, so you guys can get an idea on how we feel/felt about certain things that were brought up, and so you can't try to accuse us for ignoring a nomination LOL. Keep in mind that although we voted on most of the things that were recently brought up, some things didn't make the cut due to ignorant nominations or were voted on prior to recent noms. For each nom I'll give a short statement on what we thought overall:

Council Slate

Volcarona A+ to A: All disagreed except two
Suicune B+ to A-: Mostly disagreed
Mew A+ to A: About half and half
Mega Heracross A- to B+: Split but leaning towards agree
Mega Gallade B+ to B: All agreed
Marowak B+ to A-: Mostly all disagreed
Mantine B to B+: Almost all agreed
Mega Lopunny B to B+: All disagreed except one
Mega Venusaur B to B+: All agreed
Alolan Ninetales: B- to B: Most were indifferent or split
Mega Gardevoir B- to C+: All agreed except one
Alolan Muk B- to C+: All agreed
Smeargle B- to C+: All agreed
Mega Aerodactyl C+ to B-: Very much indifferent
Mega Camel C to C+: All agreed
Infernape C- to C+: All agreed or were indifferent
Bronzong C- to Unranked: All agreed

Discussion Slate:

A+ ---> A

A- ---> B+

B- ---> B

C+ ---> B-

Also relax on the Marowak discussion please.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

A+ ---> A - Not now. Don't get me wrong, this could happen if there's another meta shift or two against it. But right now, it's simply the best defogger in a tier where entry hazard support is required for many common mons like Zard Y and Volcarona. Latios is constrained by its Choice Scarf making defogging a lot harder, and it doesn't really have the blanket-checking ability Mew does. I don't think it needs to drop just yet.

A- ---> B+ - Agree. This thing has just about no place in A-, where the cornerstones of many playstyles reside. It can't break stall for shit, it doesn't do too well vs rain, it doesn't do well vs AV, Zard Y + Duggy is another core it dies to. It's been bad for some time, really.

B- ---> B - Indifferent. I just don't know if this is as threatening as Webs was.

C+ ---> B- - Agree. RN this thing is a very good balance breaker, as people here seem to be underestimating the core of Tox/Celes/Tang.

EDITS: I don't think Latios merits a rise to A right now. It's a scarfer that doesn't really take care of Volcarona without some significant chip:

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 135-160 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
So either you fit a passive answer onto your team that saps momentum like crazy (hard to do on offense), or you put another scarfer that can actually win (hard to fit). One of those passive answers is Mantine, who serves as a better Defogger too.

In addition, Latios struggles with rain, AV, and Tox/Celes/Tang has Celesteela to wall it all day. I don't think Latios merits a rise right now because of this.

 

[UltraBallz]

Dugtrio is not an S ranked pokemon. Its broken af and doesn't have a place in OU because Arena Trap is stupid but to try and compare it to Landorus or Gear is ridiculous to me. Duggy does what its supposed to very well but lando and gear can do practically everything offensively and defensively you could think of. Duggy is more of a catalyst to help other pokemon succeed and isnt really an S ranked mon in itself to me.

The mon in my opinion that deserves to move the most is Latios. I mean this was the fourth most used mon in all of WCOP. And I know ppl will say usage doesnt matter but if the best players are using it that much it means something. Latios is one of the most splashable mons atm because it provides so much key offensive and defensive utility. Lati still has problems letting in threats like Maw and Gear in for pretty much free but I think that it is a lot more consistent in doing its job than the rest of A-.

 

[Sun King]

The mon in my opinion that deserves to move the most is Latios. I mean this was the fourth most used mon in all of WCOP. And I know ppl will say usage doesnt matter but if the best players are using it that much it means something. Latios is one of the most splashable mons atm because it provides so much key offensive and defensive utility. Lati still has problems letting in threats like Maw and Gear in for pretty much free but I think that it is a lot more consistent in doing its job than the rest of A-.

I've bolded the most important part of your comment because I believe it undermines everything preceding it. Yes, Latios is useful; however, letting in two of the single most dangerous mons in the meta game for free is entirely undeserving of an A or higher ranking. Magearna is S for two reasons: 1, its versatility of movesets; 2, its ability to quickly snowball out of control if given the opportunity. The fact that Latios gives such a devastating Pokemon a free opportunity to end a game or even poke holes all throughout (or more crucially, forfeit a lot of momentum) leads me to believe A- is a good ceiling right now.

Additionally, I take issue with one of your supporting arguments which is that WCOP usage correlates with ranking. I think that's a very weak argument because let's hypothesize that 60% of WCOP players used Ninjask; would we suddenly have to say "Oh wow, Ninjask seein' some love, must be A ranked"? No, of course not, because there are verifiable qualities that make it less than that. Latios has a niche in its typing/stats, however it has a crippling weakness in allowing two incredibly dangerous Pokemon to freely switch in.

 

[Reviloja753]

Shuckle C- ---> UR
I think that since the best setter of Webs (Smeargle) is sitting at C+, a setter who isn't even all that good in Shuckle should be Unranked.

Dugtrio A+ ---> S (Somewhat Agree)
Dugtrio has always been great on stall teams. That much is known. However, the rise of ZardYDuggyTTar offensive cores combined with the stall prowess makes me think it should be in S rank. I'm a little on the fence with this one though as Dugtrio doesn't have the same level of versatility as Lando or Gear. However, it isn't one-note in terms of what it can do (cough cough Zygarde), so I am leaning towards it being S but I could go either way tbh.