Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
tangrowth > A-

Venusaur > A-

Be aware that my metagame knowledge is still somewhat lacking from hiatus. Either way, the metagame is extremely hazard prominent atm, which gets me to the point where I think these two pokemon shouldn't be ranked whole subranks from eachother, tbh I would even drop tangrowth down to b+ because it simply doesn't do much in the current meta, it's weak to t-spikes, it's loses to the most effective win condition in the meta (magearna) and simply just sits there clicking knock off. It also gives up and coming pokemon like clefable free rocks, it even doesn't check stuff it should check considering it being a bulky ass grass type (greninja all variants, tapu bulu if no sludge bomb, suicune, and most special attackers considering how prone it is to hazard stacking) ofc hazard stacking weakness goes for venusaur as well, but it removes toxic spikes and actually deals well with magearna being one of it's most popular checks in the current meta, it does better vs all greninja variants, deals with tapu bulu and u can even forgo giga drain for hp fire + eq to deal with kartana/scizor which is niche, but still viable if needed. As I said my metagame knowledge is a bit lacking and my arguments might be as well, but the metagame trends really do speak for themselves as it is now, I think this is a fair nomination. PS: drop tangrowth to b+ that mon is actually p damn bad atm.
 
Pex, Steela were always complete SD Mega Scizor stops so this is nothing new. Steela is very shaky though if you have a Magnezone in the back. They might not go hard into Celesteela, fearing getting U-Turned on but if they see SD they might be forced into Celesteela and U-Turn makes trapping Celesteela an easy task in conjunction with SD. Without SD, the opponent will never bother to go to Celesteela because Defog Mega Scizor is not a threat.

Fast Wisp Mews is annoying but if you think abt it it does not stop Mega Scizor from getting to +6 at all. Mew alone is not enough to stop any SD Mega Scizor. This is without considering Misty Terrain support.

I wouldnt suggest a rise but there are some teams as of late that gets completely annihilated. I would consider the bulky SD Set with U-Turn to be on par with the Defog Set and thus very viable because it allows you to cheese against some dangerous HO builds. Look at replays from the ladder as of late with Veil or Websoffense and you will see it offers you one of the best matchups against those teams.

In matchups other than HO you can still use Mega Scizor as a pivot and even switch into weak Scalds from Pex if you think you will never sweep just to U-Turn around and bring in the mon that has a good matchup as much and as safely as possible (Defogset is obv. superior in this matchup).

A friend of mine used SD U-Turn Mega Scizor+Fini+Z-Kyurem-B during the first cycle very successfully and it does offer amazing matchup against almost every archetype.
 
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I recall some pages back the ranking team had stated that they were not considering bringing duggy up to S-Rank, I'd like to ask why? Dugtrio is literally warping the meta around it, it's allowing some very dangerous mons like ZardY to run rampant, and is practically mandatory on stall. Without duggy, stall might not even be viable (Theorymonning a bit, but still, the playstyle would take a massive hit if duggy left)! Diggy's prominence in the meta is greatly affecting the viability of other mons to the point where they're almost never being used (Vs stall Hoopa-U gets a kill then gets trapped by duggy, so no one ever uses Hoopa-U).

Certain mons that are duggy weak are still viable yes, but the best ones have ways around him. Heatran's sub tox set won't be ko'd behind a sub and can attack back, Shed Shell Toxa is becoming more and more prominent, etc.

Really, I'd just like to know what seperates him from LandoT and Magearna enough that he stays in A+ while they occupy S.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
Like how people are saying SD Scizor is "totally unviable" when someone just qualified for OLT with it (and Kanto also peaked like mid 2100s and #1 too with the same team but whatever)

Regardless, SD shouldn't be the reason for the scizor rise, although it does have a small niche.

I nommed scizor down ~20 pages ago and it dropped, but I think it's time to send it back. Scizors defensive utility is useful in this meta, being one of the best answers to Tapu Bulu, a Pokemon which has become one of the best Pokemon in the meta over the last month and a half, and Kartana, which has been gaining steam over the last few weeks. Scizor Double Defog fat balance builds have also become more popular, typically with Mantine but on occasion with something else like mew. There are several meta trends favorable to pretty much all the scizor sets, and it's become significantly underprepped for recently. When sets are adequately scouted for (which isn't terribly hard), scizor can actually smash a wide variety of Pokemon that have begun to forgo coverage for scizor - low kick gren for example is ironically enough walled by scizor

tl;dr send scizor back to A- it walls all the new popular shit and people dont prep for it well anymore
 
I recall some pages back the ranking team had stated that they were not considering bringing duggy up to S-Rank, I'd like to ask why? Dugtrio is literally warping the meta around it, it's allowing some very dangerous mons like ZardY to run rampant, and is practically mandatory on stall. Without duggy, stall might not even be viable (Theorymonning a bit, but still, the playstyle would take a massive hit if duggy left)! Diggy's prominence in the meta is greatly affecting the viability of other mons to the point where they're almost never being used (Vs stall Hoopa-U gets a kill then gets trapped by duggy, so no one ever uses Hoopa-U).

Certain mons that are duggy weak are still viable yes, but the best ones have ways around him. Heatran's sub tox set won't be ko'd behind a sub and can attack back, Shed Shell Toxa is becoming more and more prominent, etc.

Really, I'd just like to know what seperates him from LandoT and Magearna enough that he stays in A+ while they occupy S.
I think the biggest reasons why Dug is A+ and not S is because it's a bit too frail to make efficient use of Arena Trap. It mainly requires either Focus Sash or Choice Scarf to make great use of it. And in terms of a Physical Attacker, Landorous-T is a straight upgrade, because it has a better typing, also gets the Stone-quake combo, and gets other moves like Superpower and U-Turn. Landorous-T also gets rocks up a lot safer than Dug can. Another thing is that a good portion of the popular OU pokemon aren't grounded, making Dugtrio slightly less viable. I could be wrong here, but those are the reason why I think it's not S tier.
 
I recall some pages back the ranking team had stated that they were not considering bringing duggy up to S-Rank, I'd like to ask why? Dugtrio is literally warping the meta around it, it's allowing some very dangerous mons like ZardY to run rampant, and is practically mandatory on stall. Without duggy, stall might not even be viable (Theorymonning a bit, but still, the playstyle would take a massive hit if duggy left)! Diggy's prominence in the meta is greatly affecting the viability of other mons to the point where they're almost never being used (Vs stall Hoopa-U gets a kill then gets trapped by duggy, so no one ever uses Hoopa-U).

Certain mons that are duggy weak are still viable yes, but the best ones have ways around him. Heatran's sub tox set won't be ko'd behind a sub and can attack back, Shed Shell Toxa is becoming more and more prominent, etc.

Really, I'd just like to know what seperates him from LandoT and Magearna enough that he stays in A+ while they occupy S.
Why should Dugtrio occupy S?

No clear reasons have been presented, as of the time of writing, as to why Dugtrio should be in S. No one has conceived any reasons why Dugtrio should go to S, and Dugtrio's current ranking reflects that the council hasn't conceived any reasons either.

To put it simply, the reason Dugtrio isn't in S is "Why should he?" The criteria for an S-rank mon are extremely strict – as a result, for a mon to go to S-rank, it should be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that mon is deserving of a spot in S-rank. Seeing as no such reasons have been provided (aside from affecting the meta, which is hardly unique to Dugtrio and is shared by Heatran, Zygarde, and Tapu Bulu), there is no reason for movement yet.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
I think the biggest reasons why Dug is A+ and not S is because it's a bit too frail to make efficient use of Arena Trap. It mainly requires either Focus Sash or Choice Scarf to make great use of it. And in terms of a Physical Attacker, Landorous-T is a straight upgrade, because it has a better typing, also gets the Stone-quake combo, and gets other moves like Superpower and U-Turn. Landorous-T also gets rocks up a lot safer than Dug can. Another thing is that a good portion of the popular OU pokemon aren't grounded, making Dugtrio slightly less viable. I could be wrong here, but those are the reason why I think it's not S tier.
This reasoning is badly worded. Duggy is a revenge killer and fast support (Toxic/Memento/SR etc.) almost exclusively, so it's frailty isn't as much of a problem when played properly - hence it's role of removing wallbreakers from play such as TTar/Zard X/Hoopa-U/MMaw and others. Groundium is also a thing, and is one of the reasons Ciele stall is so strong (I seem to be one of the few to note ClStall gets counter teamed by taunt, but that's for another time.). And yeah, while Lando-T may be better as a Ground type Physical attacker on paper, I don't recall our favourite tiger denying a fucking core fundamental that takes up 1/3 of the screen and 1/2 of Barney the Dinosaurs' brain cells.

Not to mention those that say they prefer Duggy over STag, due to it's speed tier (Goth was ultimately quite slow, and got warn down fairly quickly, as much as TrickScarf screwed everyone on the side of the toilet seat). And the omnipresence of SR pressures fliers coming in immensely, so the fact that you can't trap them matters less.
 
I agree with the sentiment that a full an in depth post from each member of the council is somewhat necessary. Dugtrio genuinely is a fair debate in my opinion and I'd be more than happy to drop it so long as we got a full list of reasoning from the council. Nothing to long, just a quick, "Here's a bit more into why we don't feel this is worth it" would be nice. A mon once suspected with the ability to trap an unfathomable amount of mons depending with it's many sets and then offer speedy support like a quick toxic is absolutely crucial for a vast majority of playstyles be it's necessary role on stall or the sheer power of the groundium z zard y core is a level of power soooo dominate in high ladder play. I'm 1000% chill if Dug stays at A+, but I feel we deserve a clearer explanation, preferably from each member for the council
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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I don't wanna derail the thread too much so I'll try to make this quick.

I should first state that my goal is to spread knowledge, not misinformation. That said, apparently my last post regarding SD Scizor was misinformed so it's only right that I clear that up as to not steer anyone in the wrong direction. It has gotten some usage recently that I was unaware of, due to its ability to beat down some offense teams that are unprepared for it and more reliably check double dance Magearna than non-SD sets.

I should note that I still don't think it should rise on the merits of the SD set until I've seen more (still not a fan personally). I do want to clarify my point on Steela/Pex which robopoke pointed out. I did not mean Steela/Pex as a recent trend which hurts SD Scizor, moreso just that they are a big reason it fell from grace in the transition from ORAS to SM (in ORAS SD Scizor is very good), and part of why it isn't seen as much now.

With regards to Dugtrio, you're not gonna get a full explanation from each member of the council lol. It's possible for something to be a metagame defining threat and even suspect worthy without being S rank (see: Hoopa-U in ORAS, Gothitelle in ORAS, etc). S rank is simply for THE BEST pokemon in the metagame. While Dugtrio is extremely good and potentially more metagame defining than some of the others in A+, it is restricted to only a few different team archetypes and its role - while very deadly - is linear which makes it easier to analyze at team preview than Magearna or Landorus-T. I'll admit that just because you know what it does doesn't mean you can easily stop it, but it isn't an all-around amazing pokemon like the S ranks, even if its niche is really potent. If you find this explanation insufficient I would be happy to bother another council member into maybe posting about it, but do not expect one from everyone lol.

By the way I should make the obligatory note about the newest released Mega stone. Diancie will probably be available on PS! soon, but please refrain from nominating it to any rank or referencing it in other arguments for 1-2 weeks as its impact on the metagame is still pretty much unknown. You have every right to lynch me for this one if it's not released.
 
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- Agreeing with sedertz here, SD Zor is not unviable. It might be a bit worse than ORAS because of all the pokemon in this meta such as Celesteela or Toxapex, but saying it's unviable is not right at all. One thing that at moment makes it good is that nobody prepares for it, and this makes it such a pain to go against it. It still has a nice bulk and paired with Swords Dance can be clutch in lategame, for example. Furthermore, I support Scizor going back to A-. At moment, lots of the current builds got defensive Landorus-T, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Clefable (without Flamethrower), Latis (mega too), and stuff that Scizor can just Swords Dance or Defog in front of. Things that can threaten it a lot can be stuff like Heatran, which can get rocks up everytime against a Scizor, and indeed, quoting sedertz, double defogging teams are getting popular not only stall builds which generally got Zapdos + Skarmory.

- I don't agree with putting it in A. This pokemon is still great and splashable. It can get Stealth Rock, the best move in the game probably (after Thunder Wave nerf). Lately it's being run with a nice EV spread done to outspeed the likes of Zygarde for example, this is another reason why, in my opinion, this shouldn't drop. Its movepool is great as well, Srock as i said, Defog, Soft Boiled, Taunt and even some attacking which could be Volt Switch, Ice Beam, or Psychic too. Fianlly, it has great stats like defense or spdef, which make it a really splashable pokemon as i said earlier, fitting in many builds as either a defogger or stealth rocker. Mew stays A+.

- I agree putting it in B+. First off, Heracross is really slow (only 75 base speed), being victim of the most common spammed things nowadays such as Flyinium Lando, Tapu Lele, Charizard X/Y, Pinsir, and lots of stuff that can OHKO it. Furthermore, with the rise of clefable lately, I don't think it should rise, instead, it should drop.

- I don't agree with the Ninetales-Alolan rise. I know that lots of people are trying veil and are liking it probably, but I don't find Ninetales to be good enough to rise to B. Most of the veil teams completely rely on this pokemon, and if the opponent brings stuff like Tyranitar or just Charizard Y, this pokemon will be unable to get up the Veil, therefore I don't support its rise, it should stay B-.

- posted earlier about this --> click here

These are my thoughts regarding this mons, thanks for reading!
 
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With regards to Dugtrio, you're not gonna get a full explanation from each member of the council lol. It's possible for something to be a metagame defining threat and even suspect worthy without being S rank (see: Hoopa-U in ORAS, Gothitelle in ORAS, etc). S rank is simply for THE BEST pokemon in the metagame. While Dugtrio is extremely good and potentially more metagame defining than some of the others in A+, it is restricted to only a few different team archetypes and its role - while very deadly - is linear which makes it easier to analyze at team preview than Magearna or Landorus-T. I'll admit that just because you know what it does doesn't mean you can easily stop it, but it isn't an all-around amazing pokemon like the other S ranks, even if its niche is really potent. If you find this explanation insufficient I would be happy to bother another council member into maybe posting about it, but do not expect one from everyone lol.
With the viability ranks being a heavily republic-centric nomination system I feel it only fuels the (imo disagreeable) Verlisify argument of an over-centralized tiering council which in term I feel thrusts forward the issue of democratic deficiency, which could be alleviated with explanations from even a couple council members.
 
- I don't agree with putting it in A. This pokemon is still great and splashable. It can get Stealth Rock, the best move in the game probably (after Thunder Wave nerf). Lately it's being run with a nice EV spread done to outspeed the likes of Zygarde for example, this is another reason why, in my opinion, this shouldn't drop. Its movepool is great as well, Srock as i said, Defog, Soft Boiled, Taunt and even some attacking which could be Volt Switch, Ice Beam, or Psychic too. Fianlly, it has great stats like defense or spdef, which make it a really splashable pokemon as i said earlier, fitting in many builds as either a defogger or stealth rocker. Mew stays A-.

- I don't agree with the Ninetales-Alolan rise. I know that lots of people are trying veil and are liking it probably, but I don't find Ninetales to be good enough to rise to B+. Most of the veil teams completely rely on this pokemon, and if the opponent brings stuff like Tyranitar or just Charizard Y, this pokemon will be unable to get up the Veil, therefore I don't support its rise, it should stay B.
...I don't want to be rude, but saying that Mew should stay in A+ because of its great movepool? It's had a great movepool since gen 1, man. It's Mew.

Alolan Ninetales is in B-, not B. I don't really see how Veil teams relying on this mon is a point against its viability, nor how CharY and Tyranitar being able to dispel the weather (when it often carries Hail anyway) is a real point against it either.
 
My main gripe with Dugtrio's ranking currently is that it cannot really be compared to anything whatsoever. And while I understand that we shouldn't really discuss it much, I wholeheartedly disagree with a lack of discussion regarding what is easily the most controversial mon in today's OU.

One of the earlier posts stated that Dugtrio has a great influence on the metagame but that the likes of Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, and Zygarde do too. My main problem with this statement is that, unlike those three, Dugtrio has no competition for its role. Z-Move Garchomp is also an effective wallbreaker, although it lacks the sheer nuking ability Bulu has. Volcarona performs its special sweeping role a bit better than the likes of Autotomize Celesteela (although this thing's admittedly fallen from grace lately) or other special nukes incapable of boosting up like Volc can. Zygarde has its bulk and versatility going for it but the role of a Dragon Dancer still happens to be shared by Mega TTar, which is quite prominent in today's metagame, and Zard X, which is far less common but still has its niche. Nothing, however, can revenge kill a wide variety of threats to nearly the extent Dugtrio can while having the ability to remove any counterplay to it.

To quote the NU Viability Rankings this gen (before anyone says anything, I'm immediately assuming the same mindset goes into deciding this tier's rankings):

"(To make ranking these Pokemon easier the NU Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank.) Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup.

"S Rank:
Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets."
To go through each point, one by one:

Threat Level: Huge. Dugtrio is able to revenge kill a gigantic portion of the metagame with one of its many set/item options. Dugtrio has no counters by definition of a counter, as nothing bar anything with a Shed Shell, Levitate, or Flying/Ghost-types can switch out. Due to having such limited counterplay and having the ability to trap and revenge kill anything, even if the opponent makes numerous correct predictions and eliminates something by making such a good play, Dugtrio is easily one of the biggest threats in the OU tier.

Splashability: Very good. It is almost mandatory to run on typical Stall teams. Even more situational Stall teams, like some VinCune teams outside of Veil, strongly appreciate Dugtrio's ability to remove powerful and fast Electric-types, like Tapu Koko, that would severely hinder Suicune's ability to stall or sweep teams. In addition to being a Stall staple, it finds its home on more offensively-inclined teams. It forms a devastating offensive core alongside Zard-Y and Tyranitar because of its ability to seamlessly trap and eliminate the likes of Chansey and Toxapex. Said core is among the best and most consistent in the metagame. I would hardly say the likes of Landorus-T and Magearna are literally mandatory for a certain playstyle on top of being excellent for some others.

Consistency: It requires half a brain to use, but depending on the item you opt to run (Focus Sash, Choice Scarf, Groundium Z) you're only using Dugtrio to trap and eliminate specific threats. It will always be able to beat the likes of Heatran, regardless of its set. Assault Vest Magearna is always OHKOed by Tectonic Rage. Chansey always loses to a healthy variant of the same Groundium-Z set. Volcarona requires less than 20% prior damage to be consistently OHKOed by the Choice Scarf variant's Stone Edge, through its Charti Berry. Dugtrio exists to remove specific threats from OU but nothing in the metagame can perform that role quite as well.

Effect on the Metagame: Dugtrio's very existence threatens numerous OU-viable threats. Teambuilding with it in mind is very difficult because it has no real counterplay. When Dugtrio appears on the Team Preview the game becomes more a war of prediction and attrition because Dugtrio can punish a single bad play by trapping and removing a mon, potentially breaking a powerful core. In addition, Dugtrio's trapping abilities allow it to punish good plays, too. The threat of having your Heatran removed from the game even if you manage to get a really good prediction on your opponent and OHKO something, or even if you just get a crit you didn't account for that would've been awesome under any other circumstances, is ever-present. Unlike Magearna and Landorus-T, which are incredibly versatile, Dugtrio only has three-odd variations of its exact role but that role is extremely fearsome to the point where you have to play the game completely differently when there's a Dugtrio on your opponent's team.

Reliability: Again, Dugtrio exists to trap and eliminate specific threats. It's incredibly reliable in that it is the best at beating those threats more often than not. Dugtrio is, for the most part, only used to eliminate those threats, and then it can usually end its hot streak by crippling a wall with Toxic or sacrificing itself with Memento in order to let a setup sweeper come in and wreak havoc for the rest of the battle.

Passiveness (or lack thereof): While Dugtrio isn't really doing much to Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, or Celesteela early in its life, Dugtrio is by no means passive. It can break past Chansey, OHKO Volcarona with Stone Edge through the Charti Berry after only a minor amount of prior damage, irreparably damage even AV variants of Magearna, and much, much more. Dugtrio is only quite passive against things it's not supposed to come in on anyway.

Outclassed?: As I mentioned earlier on, absolutely not. Nothing performs Dugtrio's role except for Diglett (don't use this) and Trapinch (don't use this). Both got their fair share of usage during the Dugtrio suspect. But as long as Dugtrio is used in OU, nothing comes even remotely close to performing its role in the tier. Dugtrio is incredibly unique, and cannot be outclassed in its current state.

Hazard Weakness: This is a bit more relevant to Focus Sash variants, admittedly. Other variants don't care much for any chip damage from hazards since Dugtrio is incredibly frail. If it means anything, it packs a Stealth Rock resistance.

Speed: Base 120 Speed is nothing to scoff at. For a Groundium-Z wallbreaker it's an incredible speed tier. Because its role is as influential as it is it can run a Choice Scarf to reliably outspeed the few OU-viable threats that can outspeed other variants. Tapu Koko and Mega Manectric can't beat it 1v1 all of a sudden. Greninja takes up to 79% before hazards and LO recoil. Tornadus-T takes colossal damage from Stone Edge after rocks (LO variants are almost always OHKOed). Mega Alakazam can get trapped by Pursuit or can die to Earthquake after just a tiny bit of chip damage (25% chance to be OHKOed from full after rocks).

Bulk: Dugtrio doesn't really have any bulk. It dies to almost any hit that doesn't do fixed damage like Chansey's Seismic Toss. Largely the reason why it doesn't really care about hazards too much. That being said, it more than makes up for its lack of bulk by being able to trap and OHKO numerous top-tier threats. If it's taking a hit it either did its job already or wasn't used correctly.

Matchups: Dugtrio picks its own matchups. Much like Shadow Tag during a much darker era, Dugtrio's Arena Trap means that it is, more often than not, dealing with the opponent on its terms. When it's in an unfavorable matchup it's more often than not paired with something that can switch in, or it simply uses Toxic or Memento and has lasting effects on the outcome of a match even after it's dead.

So given all this - assuming these are the qualities that determine a mon's viability in any tier (I can't see why those criteria wouldn't apply here, honestly) - why is discussion for Dugtrio's potential in S so discouraged? Unless I'm missing something it has many of the qualities to push it above and beyond the threats in A+.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Just because Dug potentially makes or breaks playstyle(s) doesn't mean that it should be S, compare it to something like Gothitelle last gen which was no higher than B+ despite being a staple on stall and finding use on other teams such as removing fat stuff for Zard / Gyara etc. When you look at Dug, nothing screams inherent S rank qualities that something such as Lando-T or Magearna currently have, it's just simply not an S rank pokemon no matter how you put it.

Bludz's post summed it up well. While it has an extremely powerful niche in the tier, it just doesn't have the versatility, unpredictability, and incredible breaking or sweeping potential that the other mons in S rank have, it has absolutely no defensive synergy with other mons, it's not something you can just slap onto a build like Lando-T or Mag either. And no, Dugtrio is not splashable, you really don't fit it into a wide variety of builds (ZardY + stall teams is not a wide variety btw), at least absolutely not near the same extent as current S mons.

If you need me to elaborate more I will, but as it stands Dug is not really S material and some of us would rather see Pokemon like Ash Gren there instead.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A ---> A+
A- ---> A
B+ ---> A-
B ---> B+
B- ---> B
B- ---> B
C+ ---> B-
C+ ---> B-
Unranked ---> C
Unranked ---> C-

Drops
A- ---> B+
B- ---> C+
B- ---> C
C ---> C-
C- ---> Unranked
C- ---> Unranked


  • Toxapex rose because
  • Latios has been seeing a lot of usage over the past few weeks. It's once again becoming a very splashable Pokemon that finds itself on a wide variety of bulky offensive builds for its revenge killing capabilities and Defog utility. More sets have started to pop up as well, such as CM Psychium, Soul Dew Roost, and Specs seeing a slight resurgence in popularity. It's one of the best offensive removers in the tier at the moment, and its defensive typing is very useful for the likes of Zard-Y, Keldeo, and non Bug Buzz Volcarona.
  • Mega Venusaur has seen a huge surge in popularity in the first cycle of OLT, being used mainly by Leftiez and Bro Fist iirc. Its ability to check prominent Pokemon such as Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Greninja, and Magearna make it a huge asset for bulky offensive teams. Leech Seed and EQ sets have been popping up more than its older sets, as it can increase its overall durability and or keep it from being Sub Heatran bait, as well as checking Magearna more reliably.
  • Mega Lopunny has still struggled a bit with the meta's common defensive cores, but people have started to realize how to build with it more successfully, utilizing T-Spikes/Spikes along with other strong hole punchers such as Ash Gren or CB Zygarde to pressure the likes of Mew and Pex.
  • Latias sees usage on more offensive oriented teams for its ability to function similarly to Scarf Latios but with the added advantage of Healing Wish, making it a great partner for more offensive teammates such as Mega T-tar, Ash Gren, and Mega Medicham.
  • Anyone who has been keeping up with OLT should know why Alolan Ninetales is going up. Veil is the premier HO playstyle atm.
  • Mega Camel is continuing to rise for its good match up vs common defensive cores as well as the omnipresent Magearna.
  • Manaphy rose because of great success on Veil, utilizing Waterium Z to break/sweep.
  • Chandelure has an interesting niche in the metagame as a very strong offensive hole puncher with two broken typings, making it extremely hard to switch into reliably. Its Flash Fire ability also makes it one of the best (if only) offensive switch-ins to Zard-Y in the tier, as well as a solid check to Magearna.
  • Conkeldurr has also seen use on some Veil teams because of how hard it hits + Veil helps offset its medicore Speed tier. It is usually seen running a set very similar to what got it banned from UU; Flame Orb Guts with Drain Punch / Mach Punch / Knock Off / Facade.
  • Mega Hera has been needing to drop for a long time now, as the meta is just not very kind to it, and there are better Megas/breakers to choose from.
  • Nihilego is a sitting duck vs practically all the Steel-types running around in the tier, and doesn't really have much of a niche outside of T-spikes.
  • P-Z is a gimmicky sweeper that rarely sweeps anymore and has a very hard time finding itself on any sort of HO teams over something else.
  • Omastar and Kabutops are super niche swimmers that are mostly outclassed by Kingdra and Swampert.
  • Magneton and Mega Beedrill are Yu-Gi-Oh cards.
Ash Gren A+ to S: A few agreed, most others would rather wait a bit longer
Dugtrio A+ to S: Entire council disagreed
Toxapex A to A+: Entire council agreed
Pinsir A to A+: Few people agreed, most disagreed
Tapu Koko A to A+: Few people agreed, most disagreed
Mew A+ to A: Extremely split (will probably come up again)
Latios A- to A: Pretty much everyone agreed
Tangrowth A to A-: Most disagreed but some agreed
Mega Venusaur B+ to A-: Nearly everyone agreed
Mega Lopunny B to B+: Mostly agreed
Mega Heracross A- to B+: Pretty much unanimous
Tapu Fini B+ to B: Most were indifferent or split
Latias B- to B: Most agreed or didn't care
Ninetales Alola B- to B: Most agreed a few didn't
Mega Camel C+ to B-: Mostly agreed except one
Manaphy C+ to B-: All agreed
Nihilego B- to C+: All agreed
Porygon Z B- to C: All agreed
Chandelure Unranked to C: All agreed some wanted it higher
Kabutops/Omastar C to C-: All agreed or didn't care
Magneton C- to unranked: All agreed
Mega Bee C- to unranked: Mostly agreed except two people, others didn't care
Conkeldurr Unranked to C-: All agreed or didn't care


Holy fuck this took forever. Anyway, you may now discuss your opinions on the new megas except Mega Diancie, because as I'm currently writing this, it is still illegal on the ladder. Once it's legal, the week no discussion time period will start.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
re: Nihilego.

Knowing it's recent drop, people have been acting like it has basically nothing going for it expect Tspikes. Steel and Ground types are one giant cock it can't seem to wrap it's tentacles around, and it's RVKed or at the very least chunked by anything that can sponge a special hit (not to mention Duggy & TTar). The way we've been playing this up, I find it surprising people aren't looking to unrank the thing. What's the deal there?

I'm not advocating to unrank it myself or anything, and I'm kinda lukewarm on it dropping (slightly disagree if the will to cut legend slayer some slack is anything to go buy). If anything, Nihilego gets better the closer to late game it becomes, as with basically all the UBs, which is where all the hype for scarf comes from. I would also mention Z moves... but that's A) less relevent / useful with Lego', and B) I've mentioned them plenty before, so i don't want to become a broken record.

Sorry if I sound vaguely frustrated, I've just spent my week in the meme that is Sheffield, and it's been a long one. Go easy on me if I've cocked anything up.
 
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I'm just gonna do a single nomination here.

Tapu Bulu: A+ -> A

Most of these new rises don't realy go into Bulu's favor, especially Toxapex. This is mainly due to Bulu's poor typping of Grass-Fairy, which makes it weak to a number of popular types in the tier. The biggest ones being Fire, Poision, and Ice. Fire types run rampant in the tier, poision types like Gengar and Toxapex either wall it or destroy it in 1v1, and even not including Alolan Ninetails, Ice type moves such as Ice Punch and Ice Beam are very popular with attackers (mainly because there is not a single Ice type in the tier). It's also easily walled by the likes of Toxapex, Celesteela, Clefable, and Ferrothorn, for they all can simply toxic stall with ease. This is even further nailed when Bulu's ability heals the opponent, making it even harder to counter them. It's also destroyed by the likes of other pokemon in A+ and A as well

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 386-456 (137.3 - 162.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 380-452 (135.2 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Celesteela Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu in Sun: 656-774 (233.4 - 275.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 402-474 (143 - 168.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 246-289 (87.5 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu in Psychic Terrain: 345-406 (122.7 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So honestly if you ask me, I think Tapu Bulu is a bit overdue for a drop, because there are way too many pokemon that check it, and it doesn't have the bulk nor the type to make up for it.

Edit: Okay, maybe it's not walled, but the problem with Grassy Surge still stands, and attackers that Bulu "isn't suppose to check" are far too common in the tier as of now.
 
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Reflect Type Mega Latias checks a lot of good mons and cores rn.

CharY teams, Mega Camel, Mega Scizor, non-fleur cannon variants of Magearna (and even then it can stall those out/reflect type if Magearna hasn't gotten a speed boost off), most Lando variants (SSSS does a number to it, but Lati still lives, outspeeds, and KOs), SD Garchomp, most non-outrage variants of Zygarde, Non-Bug Z Volcarona, Bulu, Keldeo, Koko


I don't think the mega opportunity cost is nearly as high as it was earlier in the meta with MMeta around or even back in ORAS. All of the best mons in the meta (see: the A+ and S mons) aren't megas, and you're hardly required to use one of the three breaker megas in A when there's plenty of other viable non-mega breakers.

Mega Latias is a pretty damn viable tank in this meta imo. Since it hasn't been a week iirc, I'll hold off from suggesting a ranking. But I'm looking forward to using this mon some more.

Edit: Since when is Bulu walled by Toxapex?

252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 268-316 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Or Ferrothorn?

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 384-454 (109 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Or Clefable?

252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Unaware Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 385-454 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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poision types like Gengar and Toxapex either wall it or destroy it 1v1,
Toxapex doesn't wall Tapu Bulu at all; the most common variant of Bulu is Grassium Z, and Toxapex is OHKO'd by +2 Wood Hammer, and its still takes a huge amount from +2 Horn Leech, so even if it doesn't run Wood Hammer, so I have no idea why you are saying that Toxapex walls it 1v1 lol. Even an unboosted Bloom Doom OHKOes it. Same goes for Clefable which gets bopped by Wood Hammer and Celesteela/Ferrothorn which gets hit by Superpower.

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 358-423 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 283-334 (93 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Edit: As other people said, Bulu is a wallbreaker, and posting calcs for offensive mons doesn't really prove anything since its not supposed to beat those.
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
man what kind of bulu set are you running

252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 441-519 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
let's face it you know what fightinium does to ferro

bulu is a wallbreaker, it's not supposed to beat offensive mons like zard y, instead you put it on your team to beat stall and stuff so i think you're using the wrong criteria to make it lower ranked etc
 

NG Spencer

Banned deucer.
Amoonguss b+ -> b

Amoonguss has really fallen from it's oras days, it's no longer splashable and struggles not only with top tier threats like heatran, but also with competition from other mons in the tier. Amoonguss will never be seen on stall, that spot has been filled by toxapex on spl, or the occasional tangrowth on other varients. Venusaur has been gaining popularity as of late, giving amoonguss fierce competition, especially since there aren't too many megas commonly seen on balance builds. Venusaurs popularity is the main reason I'm advocating for a drop right now as it's bulkier, faster, stronger and more versatile than amoonguss. Venusaur can beat ice beam gren, mawile and magearna, all top tier threats that break through amoonguss making it harder to justify using over venusaur. Bulky offense would prefer a grassy type with better offensive presence such as bulu, tangrowth, venusaur or even ferrothorn. Another problem it faces is the rise of kokos usage thanks to it's z wild charge sets. While amoonguss can beat koko that lack brave bird, electric terrain makes it so that spore won't work, meaning threats like heatran don't even have to worry about spore. This mon isn't necessary bad, but its hard to justify using thanks to all the competition it faces, making it seem unfit for b+ where threats like suicune are.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
My main gripe with Dugtrio's ranking currently is that it cannot really be compared to anything whatsoever. And while I understand that we shouldn't really discuss it much, I wholeheartedly disagree with a lack of discussion regarding what is easily the most controversial mon in today's OU.

One of the earlier posts stated that Dugtrio has a great influence on the metagame but that the likes of Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, and Zygarde do too. My main problem with this statement is that, unlike those three, Dugtrio has no competition for its role. Z-Move Garchomp is also an effective wallbreaker, although it lacks the sheer nuking ability Bulu has. Volcarona performs its special sweeping role a bit better than the likes of Autotomize Celesteela (although this thing's admittedly fallen from grace lately) or other special nukes incapable of boosting up like Volc can. Zygarde has its bulk and versatility going for it but the role of a Dragon Dancer still happens to be shared by Mega TTar, which is quite prominent in today's metagame, and Zard X, which is far less common but still has its niche. Nothing, however, can revenge kill a wide variety of threats to nearly the extent Dugtrio can while having the ability to remove any counterplay to it.

To quote the NU Viability Rankings this gen (before anyone says anything, I'm immediately assuming the same mindset goes into deciding this tier's rankings):



To go through each point, one by one:

Threat Level: Huge. Dugtrio is able to revenge kill a gigantic portion of the metagame with one of its many set/item options. Dugtrio has no counters by definition of a counter, as nothing bar anything with a Shed Shell, Levitate, or Flying/Ghost-types can switch out. Due to having such limited counterplay and having the ability to trap and revenge kill anything, even if the opponent makes numerous correct predictions and eliminates something by making such a good play, Dugtrio is easily one of the biggest threats in the OU tier.

Splashability: Very good. It is almost mandatory to run on typical Stall teams. Even more situational Stall teams, like some VinCune teams outside of Veil, strongly appreciate Dugtrio's ability to remove powerful and fast Electric-types, like Tapu Koko, that would severely hinder Suicune's ability to stall or sweep teams. In addition to being a Stall staple, it finds its home on more offensively-inclined teams. It forms a devastating offensive core alongside Zard-Y and Tyranitar because of its ability to seamlessly trap and eliminate the likes of Chansey and Toxapex. Said core is among the best and most consistent in the metagame. I would hardly say the likes of Landorus-T and Magearna are literally mandatory for a certain playstyle on top of being excellent for some others.

Consistency: It requires half a brain to use, but depending on the item you opt to run (Focus Sash, Choice Scarf, Groundium Z) you're only using Dugtrio to trap and eliminate specific threats. It will always be able to beat the likes of Heatran, regardless of its set. Assault Vest Magearna is always OHKOed by Tectonic Rage. Chansey always loses to a healthy variant of the same Groundium-Z set. Volcarona requires less than 20% prior damage to be consistently OHKOed by the Choice Scarf variant's Stone Edge, through its Charti Berry. Dugtrio exists to remove specific threats from OU but nothing in the metagame can perform that role quite as well.

Effect on the Metagame: Dugtrio's very existence threatens numerous OU-viable threats. Teambuilding with it in mind is very difficult because it has no real counterplay. When Dugtrio appears on the Team Preview the game becomes more a war of prediction and attrition because Dugtrio can punish a single bad play by trapping and removing a mon, potentially breaking a powerful core. In addition, Dugtrio's trapping abilities allow it to punish good plays, too. The threat of having your Heatran removed from the game even if you manage to get a really good prediction on your opponent and OHKO something, or even if you just get a crit you didn't account for that would've been awesome under any other circumstances, is ever-present. Unlike Magearna and Landorus-T, which are incredibly versatile, Dugtrio only has three-odd variations of its exact role but that role is extremely fearsome to the point where you have to play the game completely differently when there's a Dugtrio on your opponent's team.

Reliability: Again, Dugtrio exists to trap and eliminate specific threats. It's incredibly reliable in that it is the best at beating those threats more often than not. Dugtrio is, for the most part, only used to eliminate those threats, and then it can usually end its hot streak by crippling a wall with Toxic or sacrificing itself with Memento in order to let a setup sweeper come in and wreak havoc for the rest of the battle.

Passiveness (or lack thereof): While Dugtrio isn't really doing much to Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, or Celesteela early in its life, Dugtrio is by no means passive. It can break past Chansey, OHKO Volcarona with Stone Edge through the Charti Berry after only a minor amount of prior damage, irreparably damage even AV variants of Magearna, and much, much more. Dugtrio is only quite passive against things it's not supposed to come in on anyway.

Outclassed?: As I mentioned earlier on, absolutely not. Nothing performs Dugtrio's role except for Diglett (don't use this) and Trapinch (don't use this). Both got their fair share of usage during the Dugtrio suspect. But as long as Dugtrio is used in OU, nothing comes even remotely close to performing its role in the tier. Dugtrio is incredibly unique, and cannot be outclassed in its current state.

Hazard Weakness: This is a bit more relevant to Focus Sash variants, admittedly. Other variants don't care much for any chip damage from hazards since Dugtrio is incredibly frail. If it means anything, it packs a Stealth Rock resistance.

Speed: Base 120 Speed is nothing to scoff at. For a Groundium-Z wallbreaker it's an incredible speed tier. Because its role is as influential as it is it can run a Choice Scarf to reliably outspeed the few OU-viable threats that can outspeed other variants. Tapu Koko and Mega Manectric can't beat it 1v1 all of a sudden. Greninja takes up to 79% before hazards and LO recoil. Tornadus-T takes colossal damage from Stone Edge after rocks (LO variants are almost always OHKOed). Mega Alakazam can get trapped by Pursuit or can die to Earthquake after just a tiny bit of chip damage (25% chance to be OHKOed from full after rocks).

Bulk: Dugtrio doesn't really have any bulk. It dies to almost any hit that doesn't do fixed damage like Chansey's Seismic Toss. Largely the reason why it doesn't really care about hazards too much. That being said, it more than makes up for its lack of bulk by being able to trap and OHKO numerous top-tier threats. If it's taking a hit it either did its job already or wasn't used correctly.

Matchups: Dugtrio picks its own matchups. Much like Shadow Tag during a much darker era, Dugtrio's Arena Trap means that it is, more often than not, dealing with the opponent on its terms. When it's in an unfavorable matchup it's more often than not paired with something that can switch in, or it simply uses Toxic or Memento and has lasting effects on the outcome of a match even after it's dead.

So given all this - assuming these are the qualities that determine a mon's viability in any tier (I can't see why those criteria wouldn't apply here, honestly) - why is discussion for Dugtrio's potential in S so discouraged? Unless I'm missing something it has many of the qualities to push it above and beyond the threats in A+.
Firstly, I just wanted to quickly commend you on one of the most well written posts in this thread. Although I will outline objections (even though Dugtrio -> S discussion was supposed to have been dropped several pages ago, forgive me), I do appreciate your having written such an extensive and eloquent posts in favor of your beliefs.

So here's my objections -

Consistency: Shed Shell having become virtually standard on Toxapex overnight really contributes to Dugtrio's reduced consistency at the moment. While this is actually an excellent argument in favor of a suspect test, showing how Dugtrio unreasonably centralizes and warps the tier, it's a detriment to it's viability, severely hurting Zard-Y + Dugtrio in the process.

Sub Heatran is a huge pain too, and there are several instances of Dugtrio teams actually losing to Heatran because they are severely underprepped for Heatran, believing that Dugtrio will solve all their issues.

RE: Tapu Koko: Trapping Tapu Koko is only really done well by scarf sets, which lacks the sheer power to trap stuff like Chansey and Medicham and Mawile, and while it's good to deal with that and Volcarona in one slot it's far from S Rank worthy and S Rank mons typically have an S rank set, so we're really talking about Groundium here if we're proposing sending this Pokemon to S. (can't remember a single time in the history of sets vr where an s rank Mon didn't have an S rank set)

Effect on the Metagame: I don't really agree with the logic here, an S rank Pokemon should have a set commensurate with an S rank power level - gothitelle never went above A iirc and forced stuff like Shed Shell Togekiss.

Reliability/Threat Level: Dugtrio is deadweight in some matchups, Rain in particular, which is an incredibly popular playstyle. Landorus-T and Magearna are hardly ever deadweight in any matchup, especially stuff like Fly-Z Lando which has the capability to tear through virtually every team. And even if your set is technically deadweight, the opponent doesn't know that until they've thoroughly scouted the moveset, allowing them to do things sometimes. Everyone knows exactly what Dugtrio does, and the only element of surprise is a possible scarf (which is usually fairly obvious from preview).
 
Have you even paid attention to the meta post-SPL, or actually used Bulu at all? Your post reeks of theorymon and a lack of observance. Not only is Bulu one of the best offensive checks to Zygarde in the tier, but it also acts as a decent secondary Water-resist and A-Gren check, whilst also providing one of, if not the premier balance breaker in the tier, and it breaks every single on of the checks you listed barring offensive Fire-types (which, thanks to Bulu's impressive array of viable sets and Z-Moves, such as Z-Fight, Z-Grass, and Z-Rock, none of them can switch in). Furthermore, it aids a team's stall matchup immensely by not being revenge killed by Dugtrio, with sets such as Taunt Z-Fight, Leech Seed Z-Fight, and bulky Taunt / Leech Seed / Swords Dance / Horn Leech. Grassy Terrain bolsters Bulus already significant bulk even further, and the recovery provided by boosted Horn Leeches allows it to stick around for laughable lengths of time. No other Pokemon in A+ provides the offensive prowess and defensive utility in one package that Bulu does.

I could list a shedload of calcs, but it's fruitless and adds nothing to conversation, so I'll leave it up to you to go and find a decent team with Bulu and play well with it to find out what it's really capable of, and just how viable it is.

Dropping Bulu is a laughable proposition until Mega Venusaur becomes even more prolific than it is at the moment, and even then it could adapt using either Spikes support with SD 3 attacks Zen Headbutt, or Zen Headbutt with Z-Psychic.

tldr: none of the defensive Pokemon you listed dare switch into Bulu for reasons other than to scout, Bulu offers mad role compression on teams, and Bulu is the goat

-----------------
Regarding the recent push for Dugtrio to go to S: This has been covered sufficiently by p2 and Bludz, but I wonder if people can honestly look at Dugtrio and consider it on par with Lando-T and Magearna. Are you living in the same world as everyone else?
 
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I think it may be time for Keldeo to drop from A to A-.

The recent meta trends have been highly unfavorable to it, as evidenced by the new update which saw 4 good answers to Keldeo all rising: Toxapex, Latios, Latias, and M-Venu. On top of this, the rising popularity of mons like Mantine, Gastrodon, and Suicune, as well as the continued dominance of stuff like Bulu and Tangrowth, and other less-dominant but still relevant mons like Fini, really hurts Keldeo's effectiveness in the meta.

Water just isn't the spammable STAB it once was, with the dominance of rain, Ash-Ninja and rise of fire types necessitating strong resists, and with Mantine and to a lesser extent Gastro being able to absorb these hits with impunity. Specs Keldeo is simply not a very effective breaker when teams are so commonly packing the aforementioned answers which are rising in popularity. Very rarely will Keldeo face a balanced team that isn't running at least one of Toxapex, Lati@s, Venu, Mantine, Bulu, or Tangrowth. Offensive teams also commonly run Lati@s for defog support, and Bulu is also a popular choice. Stall teams just switch in Toxapex every time against Keldeo, and you can't just slap a Dugtrio on the team and deal with this anymore thanks to Shed Shell. Even smart plays like double switching to a Toxapex answer every time Keldeo comes out won't be very sustainable, since in the long run with stealth rock, toxic spikes, and chip damage, Keldeo will be worn out while Pex outlives thanks to regen. It also raises the question of why you are using this as a breaker if it's just going to double switch to a better-equipped breaker anyway. Offensive teams have plenty of offensive checks to Keldeo, as its speed tier isn't enough to threaten these teams. Popular mons like Koko, Scarf Lele, M-Lop, M-Zam, and M-Pinsir, among others make Keldeo's day hard.

Scarf can remedy these problems against offense, but at a huge cost. Keldeo now becomes even more dead weight against any sort of defensively inclined team, as now even fat non-resists like Mew, Clefable, Celesteela, and Zapdos, all extremely popular mons rn, can switch in and force it out without much harm to themselves. An offensive check to Volc is great, and Keldeo is excellent at this role, but there are certainly other options.

On top of this, Keldeo doesn't really appreciate the rise of veil teams replacing webs. Against webs, Keldeo could beat down stuff like Bisharp, but now, it becomes setup fodder for stuff like Suicune, Magearna, Manaphy, and Zygarde if you're not locked into Icy Wind. It is a great Ttar check which is nice, and it also pairs well with Ttar to remove a few of its checks, but the meta is just not kind to it atm, just look at the most recent update a second time.

I think its best comparison is Garchomp, who also sits at A. Garchomp is a powerful mon with decent defensive utility, like Keldeo. It can serve as a 101+ scarfer and Volc answer as effectively as Keldeo. However, I think, despite their differences, Garchomp just brings more to the table in the current meta. It can set rocks, has deadly Z-move sets, actual ways to lure many of its checks, isn't stopped cold by two of the best and most prevalent defensive mons in the tier (Growth and Pex), rough skin, one of the few offensive answers to Duggy+Zard Y. I think this surpasses the ability to check Ttar, Weavile, Scizor, and Ash Ninja (which you can't even safely check until you've scouted its not going to bop you with Protean extrasensory). Speaking of Ash-Ninja, I think this is the premiere offensive water type of this gen, and while it offers less defensive utility, is overall much more threatening than Keldeo.

I feel like Keldeo still fits fine alongside mons like Ttar and Zapdos, as it is a fairly splashable mon and can be effective under the right circumstances, but I don't think it belongs alongside meta-defining threats like Koko and ZardY.
 

talah

LALISA
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I think it may be time for Keldeo to drop from A to A-.

The recent meta trends have been highly unfavorable to it, as evidenced by the new update which saw 4 good answers to Keldeo all rising: Toxapex, Latios, Latias, and M-Venu. On top of this, the rising popularity of mons like Mantine, Gastrodon, and Suicune, as well as the continued dominance of stuff like Bulu and Tangrowth, and other less-dominant but still relevant mons like Fini, really hurts Keldeo's effectiveness in the meta.

Water just isn't the spammable STAB it once was, with the dominance of rain, Ash-Ninja and rise of fire types necessitating strong resists, and with Mantine and to a lesser extent Gastro being able to absorb these hits with impunity. Specs Keldeo is simply not a very effective breaker when teams are so commonly packing the aforementioned answers which are rising in popularity. Very rarely will Keldeo face a balanced team that isn't running at least one of Toxapex, Lati@s, Venu, Mantine, Bulu, or Tangrowth. Offensive teams also commonly run Lati@s for defog support, and Bulu is also a popular choice. Stall teams just switch in Toxapex every time against Keldeo, and you can't just slap a Dugtrio on the team and deal with this anymore thanks to Shed Shell. Even smart plays like double switching to a Toxapex answer every time Keldeo comes out won't be very sustainable, since in the long run with stealth rock, toxic spikes, and chip damage, Keldeo will be worn out while Pex outlives thanks to regen. It also raises the question of why you are using this as a breaker if it's just going to double switch to a better-equipped breaker anyway. Offensive teams have plenty of offensive checks to Keldeo, as its speed tier isn't enough to threaten these teams. Popular mons like Koko, Scarf Lele, M-Lop, M-Zam, and M-Pinsir, among others make Keldeo's day hard.

Scarf can remedy these problems against offense, but at a huge cost. Keldeo now becomes even more dead weight against any sort of defensively inclined team, as now even fat non-resists like Mew, Clefable, Celesteela, and Zapdos, all extremely popular mons rn, can switch in and force it out without much harm to themselves. An offensive check to Volc is great, and Keldeo is excellent at this role, but there are certainly other options.

On top of this, Keldeo doesn't really appreciate the rise of veil teams replacing webs. Against webs, Keldeo could beat down stuff like Bisharp, but now, it becomes setup fodder for stuff like Suicune, Magearna, Manaphy, and Zygarde if you're not locked into Icy Wind. It is a great Ttar check which is nice, and it also pairs well with Ttar to remove a few of its checks, but the meta is just not kind to it atm, just look at the most recent update a second time.

I think its best comparison is Garchomp, who also sits at A. Garchomp is a powerful mon with decent defensive utility, like Keldeo. It can serve as a 101+ scarfer and Volc answer as effectively as Keldeo. However, I think, despite their differences, Garchomp just brings more to the table in the current meta. It can set rocks, has deadly Z-move sets, actual ways to lure many of its checks, isn't stopped cold by two of the best and most prevalent defensive mons in the tier (Growth and Pex), rough skin, one of the few offensive answers to Duggy+Zard Y. I think this surpasses the ability to check Ttar, Weavile, Scizor, and Ash Ninja (which you can't even safely check until you've scouted its not going to bop you with Protean extrasensory). Speaking of Ash-Ninja, I think this is the premiere offensive water type of this gen, and while it offers less defensive utility, is overall much more threatening than Keldeo.

I feel like Keldeo still fits fine alongside mons like Ttar and Zapdos, as it is a fairly splashable mon and can be effective under the right circumstances, but I don't think it belongs alongside meta-defining threats like Koko and ZardY.
I'm not one to usually post in this thread, and while I'm not necessarily against a Keldeo drop, I think you're discounting a very important factor: CM Taunt Keldeo.

While underutilized atm, this is, IMO, one of Keldeo's more effective sets as it can 1v1 every standard Keldeo switchin besides the Lati twins and Bulu. While those are definitely prominent, it means that teams can't actually rely on defensive answers like Toxapex to handle Keldeo, since it's literally setup fodder for it, whether it is Z move or Leftovers. Z move especially is actually very useful vs most stall builds, considering it will get at least 1 kill against them, since it can break through stall's answers to it(besides Bulu). It also provides a decent answer to Vincune, considering it can sort of stop it due to Taunt. Of course, this, like Specs, comes at the cost of being a severely worse Ash Gren answer(can only come in once on both specs and Z move), not being able to check Volcarona etc.

As for your Garchomp comparison, Z move can also do the things you mentioned in your post; it 1v1s Tangrowth and Pex, can do well vs some Zard Y builds while still being able to check everything its fantastic typing allows it to.

Another unexplored area for Keldeo, is, IMO, Veil. While not being the most threatening setup sweeper, it helps the matchup vs both Gren forms, Charizard Y, Ttar and SD Zor, which is starting to resurface as a reliable way of beating Veil. I'll be the first to admit I haven't done enough testing with and might be sort of talking out of my ass, but it might be decent.

Despite this, a Keldeo drop is certainly not out of the question. Every set has flaws that are prominent and with the introduction of Mega Latias and Mega Altaria, who very much trouble it, it's definitely a candidate for one.
 
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