Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[TheMohZone]

i think Greninjas biggest change is the existence of Ash-Greninja

Think about how threatening Ash-Greninja is once it gets Battle Bond off, people will go out of their way to stop it. You cannot Sack against Greninja until you know it is Protean, where sacking is a very common play to get your revenge killer in safely. So the most common play against a unknown Greninja is to switch in Toxapex or Tapu Fini...who then get promptly smacked by Extrasensory or Gunk Shot.

Of course this element of surprise is lost once the Ability is revealed but the point stands. Greninja this gen is like Charizard early last gen, where its really hard to tell what variant you are facing and if you guess wrong, you lose a key player on your team. the issue is, unlike the Zards, the Greninjas can be slotted into similar, if not exactly the same roles on teams, cleaners and Revenge killers that can sweep if you give them an inch, making it, as of now (Who knows in the future), really hard to tell which is which. Guess wrong and there is suddenly a very exploitable hole in your team.

Is it S Rank? It was S Rank last gen and nothing has changed for it in the negative bar swapping one Revenge Killer (Talonflame) for another (Tapu Koko) so I don't see why not?

 

[Breeder Ben]

Just want to give big props to the OU community. At the moment I feel like OU is in a good place, even though there is lots of chat around greninja , metagross and phermosa (even I may have whinged few times) I do think they can be dealt with unfortunately not as much as different people hope for each individual mon depending on team their team construction. I do think we need those challenges due to the fact they challenge each and everyone one of us, and at the end of the day we as a community will grow and make new methods for these mons to be dealt with! Please don't think i'm bashing anyone, But I think our tier is moving forward! So i just want to say thank you to everyone that has helped us moved forward, We are in a great place at the moment and see only positive things to come for the OU team.

 

[nameless90]

Based on the post above, Victini isn't trying to break Greninja, it's trying to break slow bulky Pokemon like Toxapex and Tapu Bulu, so its speed isn't a sticking point.

I know that Victini isn't trying to break Greninja, especially without the +1 Spe provided by the Flame Charge set.
Indeed I wrote that offensively Psychic (with many Poison types around) and Fire is a nice offensive typing, and we have to consider the good movepool Victini has.

Problem is Psychic typing with around many fast u-turners, Dark types and fast Waters.
Fire typing can be a liability if you can't avoid to be trapped by Dugtrio, but with Flame Charge (not the best option, but it works) you can kill it before the opposite happens.

Is it S Rank? It was S Rank last gen and nothing has changed for it in the negative bar swapping one Revenge Killer (Talonflame) for another (Tapu Koko) so I don't see why not?

Actually, things now are better for Greninja due to the fact Gunk Shot being even more useful with so many Fairies all around (mainly the Tapus) coming from such blazing Spe.
Now, not only you have to scout its movepool, but this monster has even one more set (the Battle Bond one), so it is more difficult to stop than before.

===> I support both Greninjas for S rank.

 

[Dussky]

ok since the topic of Greninja for S Rank has arisn, I'm going to give my two cents into the conversation.

Greninja --> S Rank: Agree​

Greninja was S Ranked in ORAS, and what's really stopping it from S Rank im SuMo, now the point might be made that "Greninja doesn't exactly handle the Tapu's." this isn't Ash-Greninja currently in my discussion, this is Protean Greninja. now why I think Greninja has gotten much better in SuMo from ORAS is 1.) The mild effect it holds is insane, TheMohZone pointed out you cannot sack a Pokemon until you know what Greninja's ability is, and people will go out of their way to stop it, essentially producing a mindset of where you don't know what to do because you don't know if this is Protean or Battle Bond. 2.) Protean as an ability makes Greninja such a threat in the meta, why you ask? well, the thing Protean Greninja has over Ash-Greninja is the insane coverage it can hold, as well, due to the ability Protean, can do almost as much damage a Specs Ash-Greninja can do outside Water and Dark attacks with just a Life Orb. Allow me to demonstrate with some calculations.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 218-260 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 224-264 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tapu Fini: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4- Atk Life Orb Greninja-Ash Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tapu Fini: 142-170 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
​

from this we can see Ash-Greninja and Greninja compared side by side. Greninja can potentially 1v1 pokemon slower than it due to the ability to change types to potentially resist the incoming hit, then take out the pokemon with a move that kills. example here is vs Tapu Fini, where Greninja can Gunk Shot, resist the moonblast, then take Tapu Fini out with a second Gunk Shot, barring no RNG takes place. my final word on Greninja is, Greninja can play a LOT of mind games with the opponent, like "will he change types so I don't kill him," or "is it battle bond or protean?" which IMO is very unhealthy and even produces a mild "Aegislash effect." I agree with Greninja for S.

Ash-Greninja --> S Rank: Agree​

the power Ash-Greninja is insane, and we can all agree on this. you cannot sack a pokemon if you know the opposing Greninja is Battle Bond, if Greninja gets out off its piss weak form, stopping Ash-Greninja from sweeping your team is such a hard task to achieve, Greninja can potentially 2HKO its switchins and beats down the checks that outspeed it due to the Water Shuriken buffs if it gets Battle Bond, baring maybe slight prior damage for some pokemon. greninjas insane ability to sweep teams mid to late game is ridiculous, and getting battle bond off isn't impossible as some may make it seem like. imo Ash-Greninja (or Greninja) in no way deserves to be in A with Heatran, Magearna, Koko, Fini and Celesteela. and Ash-Greninja doesn't deserve to be in A+ with these pokemon because both greninjas are so much better than these Pokemon. I agree with Ash-Greninja for S.

 

[Scribble]

I completely disagree with Ash Greninja to S. Protean Greninja is another story, but I'm going to focus on Ash Ninja.

We all know that in order for Ash form to be unlocked, regular Greninja must get a kill without Protean. This is extremely detrimental to the mon, as its true power can't be used until it gets a kill, which likely won't be until sometime in the middle of the match. Compared to the other things in S rank, Lando-T and Tapu Lele both have their power right away. Mega Metagross does need to mega evolve, but unlike Ash Greninja, there are circumstances where you would want to stay in regular Metagross form. Mainly for when you can easily get a kill with normal Metagross and don't want the opposing Lando-T to come in and Intimidate you. On top of that, Metagross doesn't need to get a kill to activate its amazing form, it just needs to press a button.

Next, the omnipresence of Tapu Fini. Unlike normal Greninja, Tapu Fini hard counters Ash Greninja. When Tapu Fini is on nearly every team, this creates a problem for Ash Ninja.

Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, and Mega Venusaur all also can deal with Ash Greninja (The first provided it isn't running Ice Beam, and Ice Beam Ash Ninja is bad). Tapu Koko also puts pressure on Ash Ninja when it hasn't transformed yet, and prevents it from coming out as often.

Edit: Forgot Magearna also deals with it with ease.

Ash Ninja doesn't put the same pressure on teambuilding as the 3 in S already do. You pick a bulky water/grass to deal with Landorus-T, you pick a couple of mons that can deal with Mega Metagross, and you pick Mega Metagross to deal with Tapu Lele.

TL;DR: Ash Ninja isn't comparable to Tapu Lele, Landorus-T, and Mega Metagross, and is objectively worse than the 3 of them. Common Pokemon all deal with it and can prevent it from transforming.

 

[vso]

ok since the topic of Greninja for S Rank has arisn, I'm going to give my two cents into the conversation.

Greninja --> S Rank: Agree​

Greninja was S Ranked in ORAS, and what's really stopping it from S Rank im SuMo, now the point might be made that "Greninja doesn't exactly handle the Tapu's." this isn't Ash-Greninja currently in my discussion, this is Protean Greninja. now why I think Greninja has gotten much better in SuMo from ORAS is 1.) The mild effect it holds is insane, TheMohZone pointed out you cannot sack a Pokemon until you know what Greninja's ability is, and people will go out of their way to stop it, essentially producing a mindset of where you don't know what to do because you don't know if this is Protean or Battle Bond. 2.) Protean as an ability makes Greninja such a threat in the meta, why you ask? well, the thing Protean Greninja has over Ash-Greninja is the insane coverage it can hold, as well, due to the ability Protean, can do almost as much damage a Specs Ash-Greninja can do outside Water and Dark attacks with just a Life Orb. Allow me to demonstrate with some calculations.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 218-260 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 224-264 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tapu Fini: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4- Atk Life Orb Greninja-Ash Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tapu Fini: 142-170 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
​

from this we can see Ash-Greninja and Greninja compared side by side. Greninja can potentially 1v1 pokemon slower than it due to the ability to change types to potentially resist the incoming hit, then take out the pokemon with a move that kills. example here is vs Tapu Fini, where Greninja can Gunk Shot, resist the moonblast, then take Tapu Fini out with a second Gunk Shot, barring no RNG takes place. my final word on Greninja is, Greninja can play a LOT of mind games with the opponent, like "will he change types so I don't kill him," or "is it battle bond or protean?" which IMO is very unhealthy and even produces a mild "Aegislash effect." I agree with Greninja for S.

Ash-Greninja --> S Rank: Agree​

the power Ash-Greninja is insane, and we can all agree on this. you cannot sack a pokemon if you know the opposing Greninja is Battle Bond, if Greninja gets out off its piss weak form, stopping Ash-Greninja from sweeping your team is such a hard task to achieve, Greninja can potentially 2HKO its switchins and beats down the checks that outspeed it due to the Water Shuriken buffs if it gets Battle Bond, baring maybe slight prior damage for some pokemon. greninjas insane ability to sweep teams mid to late game is ridiculous, and getting battle bond off isn't impossible as some may make it seem like. imo Ash-Greninja (or Greninja) in no way deserves to be in A with Heatran, Magearna, Koko, Fini and Celesteela. and Ash-Greninja doesn't deserve to be in A+ with these pokemon because both greninjas are so much better than these Pokemon. I agree with Ash-Greninja for S.

I disagree with Ash-Greninja going to S. It faces competition with protean greninja and has poor bulk. All what ash-greninja really threatens is offense (Where it is easily revenge killed and cannot come in without volt switches or after something dies on your team. After that, it needs one turn to weaken a one-time check(If the offense does not have scarfed tapu bulu or anything of that sort). after the check is down, it lets scarfers come in for free. And against every other playstyle it is left walled by many pokemon, needs a lot of support, and there are a lot of other offense-breakers like scarfed Tapu Lele. Tapu Lele has a lot more special bulk and is far more versatile.
Edit 1: How is it not comparable to all of those A+ rank pokemon. Magearna fills in a number of roles as a shift gear sweeper, specs attacker, assault vest wall, and trick room setter. The assault vest set is a staple for bulky offenses, while the other sets can really work with good team support. Celesteela is almost a staple for balances, with insane bulk, and moderately powerful heavy slams(for a wall). It can also be an automize sweeper.

Protean Greninja, on the other hand deserves S. It can choose from a wide array of coverage moves like extrasensory, gunk shot, u turn, ice beam, hydro pump, and dark pulse. These moves hit a lot of pokemon, which would like to scout the set like Tapu Fini, mega venusaur etc. before the know that it is protean. These moves cannot even be figured out perfectly from team preview, and a misprediction can easily mean one pokemon gone. This set is a nightmare to deal with on offense, balance, and bulky offense.

 

[QY_CS]

Suicune: B- –> B
Slowbro-Mega: B- –> B+
While it may not seem impressive, both of them are extremely threatening for their massive bulk in the physical side, access to Calm Mind, and the solid move Scald to burn the opponent. Water typing also provides decent value when defending, walling threatening pokemon such as Metagross-Mega, Pheromosa, Zygarde, Buzzwole, Excadrill, Marowak-Alola and Weavile.

 

[Jubbel]

Hello, can we talk about the current state of Kartana? As you can see, it is currently ranked below offensive threats such as Zygarde-10%, Kyurem-Black, Keldeo, Gengar and Bisharp, but I firmly believe it should be put at least on par with them, right under the B+ rank.

As you already know, Kartana is a kinda unique pokémon: it sits on the midway between a hard-hitting wallbreaker and a setup physical sweeper. One of the things that separates it from the others, however, is its flexibility. In fact, players who build around it can choose to aim it toward offense or stall, with the first kind of build being effectively swept by Timid 19-Ivs Kartana or even Choice Scarf Kartana during late-game, the second one being unable to withstand the power of Jolly SD Fightinium-Z / Steelium-Z sets without recurring to Reversal Dugtrio. Standard Jolly SD variants aren’t completely useless against faster and more offensive teams either, in virtue of belonging to a good speed tier when compared to other breakers. In addition, I think Kartana needs far less team support to shine when confronted to other pokémons in B rank such as Kingdra, Gyarados, Porygon-Z, due to its superior physical bulk and lack of Stealth Rock weakness, and most importantly due to the lack of an actual counter (with the adequate prior damage, Celesteela, Marowak and Zapdos all risk the ohko versus a +2 Kartana ready to unleash an All-Out Pummeling / Corckscrew Crash). Hell, I’d go even as far as to say that Kartana has a crucial selling point in regards to other wallbreakers from higher ranks such as Buzzwole, Marowak, and Tyranitar in its poison-type immunity, that allows it to completely ignore Toxic Spikes when dealing with Toxapex stall. December usage stats, while not being crucial when determining a pokémon’s rank, also clearly show the prevalence of Kartana in regards to many of the threats I mentioned in this post.

To sum it up, I propose to consider the possibility of a raising of Kartana since it has unique characteristics that make it consistent just like B+ threats, and maybe even more.

 

[Martin]

Ash Greninja is a very weird case I think; this is mainly because it is a fucking massive constraint both in-game and in the team-builder given that, even before you consider the initial 50:50 between Greninja and Ash Greninja that you get when it first comes out (granted the way it is brought out is sometimes an indicator), you still have the issue of preventing it from transforming (a HUGE consideration in any game is preventing this if possible), but at the same time there are matchups that it outright wins and others that it is completely useless in. If your opponent has a Mantine, Tapu Fini or Toxapex, for example, it is going to have an incredibly hard time transforming, whereas my current offense build is having difficulty implementing ways of stopping that fucking thing transforming and running over it. It's kinda comparable to Mega Slowbro and Volcarona in ORAS: there are a lot of matchups they auto-win, but there are also a lot that they are dead weight in. That said, I personally thing that both it and regular Greninja should rise to S rank; their impacts are both fucking immense; seriously, the sheer fact that the range of answers to all regular Greninja variants consist of literally Chansey and Porygon2 really says a lot about just how fucking disgusting this thing is, and when you consider that it is also the best offensive Spikes user in the game (in a meta where there isn't really that much to put excessive pressure on Spikes teams, and when it is also very difficult to stop this thing laying regardless) I'm just generally really hard-pressed for reasons as to why this thing shouldn't rise; AM covered it super well, so I'll just leave it at that. AshNinja is much more borderline in terms of rank IMO, but I think it is definitely restrictive and impactful enough to warrant a rise personally.

 

[Vinsader]

Greninja: A+ -> S

Ash-Greninja: A+ -> S

I will start with Protean one:

Protean insane coverage allowed it to pick anythingthat makes a problem for your team. the mind games with Ash-form only made it better. Gunk shot allowed it to screw it's supposed Ash fairy Counters like Fini so hard, and Extrasense allow it to fuck Toxapex. Hidden Power electirc allow it to destroy Mantine and etc. sure, 4MSS, but holy shit that fucking coverage and power. it can also set up spikes so easly with the amount of switches it's making.

Now, Ash-Greninja.
Ash-Greninja is pretty much Keldeo on crack. Specs allow it to get the kill far more easly, and it's still doing respectable damage with Dark Pulse/Hydro pump, some of Protean Greninja most used moves.
After transforming it's easly screw offense and pressure Balance. Untill you remember it's Keldeo on crack and decided to bring back Gen5, and then it's can and will screw balance too.
Why is it Keldeo on crack? Rain. With slow U-Turn of Pelipper, or even fast one of the likes of Koko who makes ton of switches, Greninja will come out free and shoot a lovely specs-hydro pump in the rain.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump in Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 246-289 (61.8 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery for example.


After transforming, it's can screw his own counters with Specs Hydro pumps in the rain. the damage is pretty much horrifying. Not only that, Water-Shuriken in the rain is pretty much Talonflame water version, allowing it to clean very easly.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) in Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 252-300 (62.5 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if not in the rain, it's the same damage as Brave-bird from gen6. Without recoil. Without stealth rock weakness. Sure, Lele is everywhere, but it stil right now the best priority in the game.

 

[Gloating]

I completely disagree with Ash Greninja to S. Protean Greninja is another story, but I'm going to focus on Ash Ninja.

We all know that in order for Ash form to be unlocked, regular Greninja must get a kill without Protean. This is extremely detrimental to the mon, as its true power can't be used until it gets a kill, which likely won't be until sometime in the middle of the match. Compared to the other things in S rank, Lando-T and Tapu Lele both have their power right away. Mega Metagross does need to mega evolve, but unlike Ash Greninja, there are circumstances where you would want to stay in regular Metagross form. Mainly for when you can easily get a kill with normal Metagross and don't want the opposing Lando-T to come in and Intimidate you. On top of that, Metagross doesn't need to get a kill to activate its amazing form, it just needs to press a button.

Next, the omnipresence of Tapu Fini. Unlike normal Greninja, Tapu Fini hard counters Ash Greninja. When Tapu Fini is on nearly every team, this creates a problem for Ash Ninja.

Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, and Mega Venusaur all also can deal with Ash Greninja (The first provided it isn't running Ice Beam, and Ice Beam Ash Ninja is bad). Tapu Koko also puts pressure on Ash Ninja when it hasn't transformed yet, and prevents it from coming out as often.

Edit: Forgot Magearna also deals with it with ease.

Ash Ninja doesn't put the same pressure on teambuilding as the 3 in S already do. You pick a bulky water/grass to deal with Landorus-T, you pick a couple of mons that can deal with Mega Metagross, and you pick Mega Metagross to deal with Tapu Lele.

TL;DR: Ash Ninja isn't comparable to Tapu Lele, Landorus-T, and Mega Metagross, and is objectively worse than the 3 of them. Common Pokemon all deal with it and can prevent it from transforming.

Your acting like Ash Greninja sucks in base form, it still hits hard with Life Orb, has a 120 BP move with almost no drawback and has great speed and great typing as well. It doesn't even need Parental Bond to punch holes in the other team.

 

[Psycho Unleashed]

Ash-Greninja: A+ -> S


Now, Ash-Greninja.
Ash-Greninja is pretty much Keldeo on crack. Specs allow it to get the kill far more easly, and it's still doing respectable damage with Dark Pulse/Hydro pump, some of Protean Greninja most used moves.
After transforming it's easly screw offense and pressure Balance. Untill you remember it's Keldeo on crack and decided to bring back Gen5, and then it's can and will screw balance too.
Why is it Keldeo on crack? Rain. With slow U-Turn of Pelipper, or even fast one of the likes of Koko who makes ton of switches, Greninja will come out free and shoot a lovely specs-hydro pump in the rain.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump in Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 246-289 (61.8 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery for example.


After transforming, it's can screw his own counters with Specs Hydro pumps in the rain. the damage is pretty much horrifying. Not only that, Water-Shuriken in the rain is pretty much Talonflame water version, allowing it to clean very easly.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) in Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 252-300 (62.5 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if not in the rain, it's the same damage as Brave-bird from gen6. Without recoil. Without stealth rock weakness. Sure, Lele is everywhere, but it stil right now the best priority in the game.

Ash-Greninja is fine where it is.
Keep in mind that S rank is on the same level as Tapu Lele and Landorus-T.

Ash-Greninja is walled by quite a few mons. Even with Specs it can't lay a finger on the likes of Fini,AV Muk, AV Magearna,etc. And yes, I'm applying this to rain too.

Rohon-W can easily switch in on any Water Shuriken,HPump, and even tank a Dark Pulse.

Volcanoes with a Quiver Dance up can easily live Shuriken and recover with Giga Drain. Ash-Ninja can put pressure on damaged mons with U-Turn. Ash is so common in the tier now hat no one is going to stay in on it, and will take every precaution to prevent it from killing.

The only A+ Viable option is Choice Specs which can easily be taken advantage of because of its move lock.

Summary (and extra points)

-Fini and many other checks and counters to AshNinja have high usage rates in the tier.

-Ash-Ninja is extremely frail and is lacking coverage.

-It is hard to obtain Ash Form because of how easy it is to take advantage of Specs.

-AV Users (which are common) prevent Ash-Ninja from getting its form and tank damage easily.

-Pelliper is a Pokémon that can easily be killed, and once that Pokémon is taken care of, and Rain Dance wears off Specs Regular Greninja is easily manipulated.

Here is also a list of Pokémon(or things) that can either counter or check Ash

-Tapu Fini
-RotomW
-AV MukA
-AV Magearna
-A Volcarona with 1 or 2 QD's up (Not counting rain)

And most importantly
PREDICTING ITS SIMPLE MOVESET

That is just my thoughts on the topic.

Regards,
Psycho.

 

[Disjunction]

Hi, I wanted to back up the nomination for Dugtrio to move up. I think it should move up to A, but A-, as AM suggested, is acceptable as well.

I don't think there's much explaining I need to do on what Dugtrio does. I genuinely believe it's becoming a metagame defining mon in the way that it chokes out specific elements of teams to create enormous advantages. It forces you to play in specific ways to maintain your team composition and, in many cases, just the existence of it on the opponent's team can affect your ability to gain momentum all game. To show what I'm talking about, I've picked a handful of replays from spl where Dugtrio has consistently demonstrated its important niche.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
Week 1 - Sweepage vs Hector Hard Mode
Scarf Dugtrio traps Hector's main win condition in Volcarona and kills with Stone Edge. The U-turn into Dugtrio screams Scarf, but, because of Dugtrio's Arena Trap, scouting for the set or bluffing are impossible and unnecessary, respectively. Dugtrio dies the next turn to Pursuit, but it doesn't matter when it removed the biggest threat to sweep's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
Week 1 - reyscarface vs Mazar
Mazar used Tectonic Rage Dugtrio to trap the Toxapex which would have successfully killed it without the Scald crit. If that hadn't happened, rey would have had a much tougher late game than he did. Not long after, rey traps mazar's Excadrill with his own Dugtrio, removing his Stealth Rocker (a stealth rocker with mold breaker that ignores mega sableye's magic bounce, too, mind you) and making the game even easier for him from then on.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238383
Week 2 - TDK vs FlamingVictini
duggy didn't play as big of a role here, but it did remove Magnezone from the game which made using skarm a lot easier against stuff like potential Knock Off Lando-T.

Duggy is wildly important to stall and as a partner to certain sweepers like Volcarona because trapping is legitimately that good. It really deserves this bump, in my opinion.

 

[TheMohZone]

As the person who seems to have, accidentally, opened the flood gates for it, i'd disagree with an Ash-Greninja rise.

Ash-Greninja needs to get that initial kill in order to be as threatening as its Protean counterpart, and you know its set (Specs, Hydro Pump, MIZU SHURIKEN, U-Turn, Dark Pulse). Its one note as heck. You know how to beat it, and its answers CAN answer Protean sets, so its relatively safe to switch in. Tapu Koko, Toxapex, Chansey, they can all come in on it for free. But you NEED to respond to it efficiently, or it will get that kill and put in work.

However if you play like that and the Greninja turns out to be Protean, you lose your Koko if they have Gunk Shot (They will) you lose Toxapex to Extrasensory or Chansey to Low Kick and, even if they DO just go for Hydro, Ice Beam or whatever, they may have just not capitalised on that initial turn of worry. Once you know its Protean and get past the initial mind games, the same old mind games of "Which moves does it have" begin.

Ash-Greninja doesn't really benefit from Protean existing all that much. with or without it in the tier (if Greninja was to be banned which is a whole other ball game) the plays against Ash-Greninja are the same. it either beats you with frightening Ease or is useless, much like Manaphy of old, but against offence.

Protean Greninja benefits immensely from Ash-Greninja existing and can swing games on just that one turn of unknown for your opponent.

Greninja -> S
Ash-Greninja stays in A+

 

[Photofluid]

i think Greninjas biggest change is the existence of Ash-Greninja

Think about how threatening Ash-Greninja is once it gets Battle Bond off, people will go out of their way to stop it. You cannot Sack against Greninja until you know it is Protean, where sacking is a very common play to get your revenge killer in safely. So the most common play against a unknown Greninja is to switch in Toxapex or Tapu Fini...who then get promptly smacked by Extrasensory or Gunk Shot.

Of course this element of surprise is lost once the Ability is revealed but the point stands. Greninja this gen is like Charizard early last gen, where its really hard to tell what variant you are facing and if you guess wrong, you lose a key player on your team. the issue is, unlike the Zards, the Greninjas can be slotted into similar, if not exactly the same roles on teams, cleaners and Revenge killers that can sweep if you give them an inch, making it, as of now (Who knows in the future), really hard to tell which is which. Guess wrong and there is suddenly a very exploitable hole in your team.

Is it S Rank? It was S Rank last gen and nothing has changed for it in the negative bar swapping one Revenge Killer (Talonflame) for another (Tapu Koko) so I don't see why not?

A major drawback of greninja compare to oras is the insane speed creep from phero and tapu koko. While teams don't necessarily pack more counters against greninja (not that they can ofc), the meta has adapted to a point where teams are far more prepared against the ultra fast sweepers, and this hurts one of greninja's major strength in the oras era in its speed.

 

[Damian_Grey]

Hi, I wanted to back up the nomination for Dugtrio to move up. I think it should move up to A, but A-, as AM suggested, is acceptable as well.

I don't think there's much explaining I need to do on what Dugtrio does. I genuinely believe it's becoming a metagame defining mon in the way that it chokes out specific elements of teams to create enormous advantages. It forces you to play in specific ways to maintain your team composition and, in many cases, just the existence of it on the opponent's team can affect your ability to gain momentum all game. To show what I'm talking about, I've picked a handful of replays from spl where Dugtrio has consistently demonstrated its important niche.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
Week 1 - Sweepage vs Hector Hard Mode
Scarf Dugtrio traps Hector's main win condition in Volcarona and kills with Stone Edge. The U-turn into Dugtrio screams Scarf, but, because of Dugtrio's Arena Trap, scouting for the set or bluffing are impossible and unnecessary, respectively. Dugtrio dies the next turn to Pursuit, but it doesn't matter when it removed the biggest threat to sweep's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
Week 1 - reyscarface vs Mazar
Mazar used Tectonic Rage Dugtrio to trap the Toxapex which would have successfully killed it without the Scald crit. If that hadn't happened, rey would have had a much tougher late game than he did. Not long after, rey traps mazar's Excadrill with his own Dugtrio, removing his Stealth Rocker (a stealth rocker with mold breaker that ignores mega sableye's magic bounce, too, mind you) and making the game even easier for him from then on.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238383
Week 2 - TDK vs FlamingVictini
duggy didn't play as big of a role here, but it did remove Magnezone from the game which made using skarm a lot easier against stuff like potential Knock Off Lando-T.

Duggy is wildly important to stall and as a partner to certain sweepers like Volcarona because trapping is legitimately that good. It really deserves this bump, in my opinion.

Really good post! Your replays did a really great job of showing what makes Dugtrio so good in this metagame! I totally agree that Dugtrio should move up to A tier. Actually, to be honest, I think there are a lot of good arguments that can support for Dugtrio to go all the way up to A+ or even S.

When you are using Dugtrio on your team, you have the opportunity to trap and either seriously damage or outright K.O. a Pokemon on the opponent's team that is a very serious threat. That is what Dugtrio is for -> trying to lure out a very threatening Pokemon on your opponent's team so it can be weakened or outright eliminated.

Since the replays you posted do such a good job of pointing out the problem, I hope you don't mind if I use them too to help me form my argument on this issue :)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
^^ If you go to turn 7 -> notice how Sweepage leaves his Jirachi in on the Volcarona and uses U-turn, despite the risk that Jirachi could be fire blasted or get a burn from flame body? The reason Sweepage puts his Jirachi at risk of serious damage is because he knows that Volcarona is a huge threat to his team, and so bringing Dugtrio in safely to trap and kill Volcarona is more important than protecting Jirachi. Sweepage had strong checks and counters for all his opponent's Pokemon except for Volcarona, so he used Dugtrio to trap and eliminate Volcarona. Because of Dugtrio and arena trap, Sweepage was able to trap and kill the greatest threat to his team, and there really wasn't anything his opponent could do to stop it. I mean, how are you supposed to prevent a Pokemon from being trapped by Dugrio? Are you supposed to immediately take your Pokemon out of battle right after sending it in every single time just in case the opponent brings in Dugtrio through a U-turn, double switch, etc.?

It is the same situation with the other replays. For example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
^^Check out turns 18 and 19. Notice how reyscarface hurls his focus sash Dugtrio right in front of the opponent's Excadrill? Reyscarface knew that Excadrill was a huge threat to his team since it could set up stealth rock, which would be terrible since he was playing stall and stall can't handle all the residual damage that comes with stealth rock. Thanks to Dugtrio, reyscarface was able to trap and eliminate Excadrill, his greatest threat.

Also, check out the Dugtrio from Mazary - the opponent from the same battle who was using Charizard-Y. Notice that his Dugtrio didn't have a focus sash but was instead using the ground -type z-move? I'm guessing the reason his Dugtrio is running a z-move instead of focus sash is because it was designed to get rid of the Pokemon that wall Charizard-Y, specifically Toxapex and Chansey. Since these Pokmeon are passive and weak offensively, Dugtrio does not need a focus sash to beat them. However, he does need to a strong move to break through their defenses. Hence, the z-ring.

This is some seriously fucked up shit. People are planning out which Pokemon they want to trap and kill way in advance at the teambuilding stage. They are designing their Dugtrios with very particular sets so they can trap and kill very specific Pokemon, before the battle even begins. This is why Dugtrio deserves A+ or S tier. When you are building a team with Dugtrio, you can give it a moveset specifically designed to trap and kill a particular Pokemon which counters or threatens one of the other Pokmeon on your team. And you can also design your team in a way which lures in the Pokmeon you want to trap and eliminate - for example, the slow U-turning Jirachi from the replay above. With proper planning and good execution, Dugtrio can make it possible to eliminate a powerful Pokemon's counters and checks, giving that Pokemon free reign to sweep, wallbreak, stall out the opponent, etc.

 

[Sun King]

Really good post! Your replays did a really great job of showing what makes Dugtrio so good in this metagame! I totally agree that Dugtrio should move up to A tier. Actually, to be honest, I think there are a lot of good arguments that can support for Dugtrio to go all the way up to A+ or even S.

When you are using Dugtrio on your team, you have the opportunity to trap and either seriously damage or outright K.O. a Pokemon on the opponent's team that is a very serious threat. That is what Dugtrio is for -> trying to lure out a very threatening Pokemon on your opponent's team so it can be weakened or outright eliminated.

Since the replays you posted do such a good job of pointing out the problem, I hope you don't mind if I use them too to help me form my argument on this issue :)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
^^ If you go to turn 7 -> notice how Sweepage leaves his Jirachi in on the Volcarona and uses U-turn, despite the risk that Jirachi could be fire blasted or get a burn from flame body? The reason Sweepage puts his Jirachi at risk of serious damage is because he knows that Volcarona is a huge threat to his team, and so bringing Dugtrio in safely to trap and kill Volcarona is more important than protecting Jirachi. Sweepage had strong checks and counters for all his opponent's Pokemon except for Volcarona, so he used Dugtrio to trap and eliminate Volcarona. Because of Dugtrio and arena trap, Sweepage was able to trap and kill the greatest threat to his team, and there really wasn't anything his opponent could do to stop it. I mean, how are you supposed to prevent a Pokemon from being trapped by Dugrio? Are you supposed to immediately take your Pokemon out of battle right after sending it in every single time just in case the opponent brings in Dugtrio through a U-turn, double switch, etc.?

It is the same situation with the other replays. For example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
^^Check out turns 18 and 19. Notice how reyscarface hurls his focus sash Dugtrio right in front of the opponent's Excadrill? Reyscarface knew that Excadrill was a huge threat to his team since it could set up stealth rock, which would be terrible since he was playing stall and stall can't handle all the residual damage that comes with stealth rock. Thanks to Dugtrio, reyscarface was able to trap and eliminate Excadrill, his greatest threat.

Also, check out the Dugtrio from Mazary - the opponent from the same battle who was using Charizard-Y. Notice that his Dugtrio didn't have a focus sash but was instead using the ground -type z-move? I'm guessing the reason his Dugtrio is running a z-move instead of focus sash is because it was designed to get rid of the Pokemon that wall Charizard-Y, specifically Toxapex and Chansey. Since these Pokmeon are passive and weak offensively, Dugtrio does not need a focus sash to beat them. However, he does need to a strong move to break through their defenses. Hence, the z-ring.

This is some seriously fucked up shit. People are planning out which Pokemon they want to trap and kill way in advance at the teambuilding stage. They are designing their Dugtrios with very particular sets so they can trap and kill very specific Pokemon, before the battle even begins. This is why Dugtrio deserves A+ or S tier. When you are building a team with Dugtrio, you can give it a moveset specifically designed to trap and kill a particular Pokemon which counters or threatens one of the other Pokmeon on your team. And you can also design your team in a way which lures in the Pokmeon you want to trap and eliminate - for example, the slow U-turning Jirachi from the replay above. With proper planning and good execution, Dugtrio can make it possible to eliminate a powerful Pokemon's counters and checks, giving that Pokemon free reign to sweep, wallbreak, stall out the opponent, etc.

I think this is a lot of hyperbole. Dugtrio is really good full stop. It isn't S tier or A+ because it can be pretty difficult to get in safely or without sacrificing a mon. It's so frail that even really weak stuff can 2HKO it, and it isn't strong enough to OHKO a lot of the meta. It's good enough for A or A- imo because of the degree to which it supports certain mons/teams, not because it can take on a lot of stuff. I can't think of anything A+ or S even remotely analogous to Dugtrio.

 

[volx757]

I think this is a lot of hyperbole. Dugtrio is really good full stop. It isn't S tier or A+ because it can be pretty difficult to get in safely or without sacrificing a mon. It's so frail that even really weak stuff can 2HKO it, and it isn't strong enough to OHKO a lot of the meta. It's good enough for A or A- imo because of the degree to which it supports certain mons/teams, not because it can take on a lot of stuff. I can't think of anything A+ or S even remotely analogous to Dugtrio.

You can't think of anything analogous because there isn't anything analogous. Dugtrio is unique, it can't do anything other A+ and S mons can, but none of them can do what it does either. It's certainly not S-rank material in the traditional sense, but it does put some strain on teambuilding, sometimes forcing ppl to run otherwise unviable items, and it achieves 100% of the KOs that it aims to. What's more weighty to me is the strain dugtrio puts on gameplay. If you're facing a duggy squad and you have on your team one or multiple of it's main targets (say, Heatran and Ttar), you're forced to make some really bad plays and switch out before doing anything if you want to avoid 50/50s of 'is he going into duggy this turn.'
Within it's niche, Dugtrio is S++ rank, performing reliably at choosing a KO it wants and then getting it, and it's future in this meta definitely needs to be looked at/discussed further. Within the meta as a whole (as in outside of specific teams and play styles), duggy is not close to S rank, as it can only run trapper, and the mons that don't fear it literally don't give 2 shits about it's presence.

 

[nameless90]

Let's be honest, with Dugtrio there is only one problem: Arena Trap.

Its recently buffed Atk (from 80 to 100) coming from its blazing Spe (120) is really what pushes it over the top; Dugtrio, in this generation, has two focused stats in Spe and Atk (with the +20-points buff).
The difference between 80 and 100 is really huge because now you can run a Jolly nature AND still achieve many key KOs.
Not only this, but its blazing Spe makes it worthy of both CB and Choice Scarf (if you really need to KO boosted threats).

This also means that this pokemon is hard to kill without priority, because can often attack first and can easily remove two pokemons if used correctly.
It needs a slow U-turn/Volt switch or is necessary to sacrifice one pokemon to get it in the battlefield for free, but Dugtrio is really worth this cost and it doesn't require specific teambuilding choices.

==> Dugtrio is really uncompetitive i.e. Shadow Tag Gothitelle in my opinion.

 

[Sun King]

You can't think of anything analogous because there isn't anything analogous. Dugtrio is unique, it can't do anything other A+ and S mons can, but none of them can do what it does either. It's certainly not S-rank material in the traditional sense, but it does put some strain on teambuilding, sometimes forcing ppl to run otherwise unviable items, and it achieves 100% of the KOs that it aims to. What's more weighty to me is the strain dugtrio puts on gameplay. If you're facing a duggy squad and you have on your team one or multiple of it's main targets (say, Heatran and Ttar), you're forced to make some really bad plays and switch out before doing anything if you want to avoid 50/50s of 'is he going into duggy this turn.'
Within it's niche, Dugtrio is S++ rank, performing reliably at choosing a KO it wants and then getting it, and it's future in this meta definitely needs to be looked at/discussed further. Within the meta as a whole (as in outside of specific teams and play styles), duggy is not close to S rank, as it can only run trapper, and the mons that don't fear it literally don't give 2 shits about it's presence.

The highlighted sections I flat out have to disagree with.

"it achieves 100% of the KOs that it aims to": This is flat out untrue and theorymonning. On paper, yes, Dugtrio is capable of doing that. In practice, Dugtrio is WAY to frail to 100% KO anything 100% of the time. Rocks are down? Can't 100% KO a bunch of threats because it no longer has Focus Sash. Barring a slow U-Turn, Dugtrio is entirely prediction reliant; you have to make sure it won't be hurt on the switch or else it loses the ability to KO a lot of the threats it intends to trap and KO.

"Within it's niche, Dugtrio is S++ rank, performing reliably at choosing a KO it wants and then getting it": Literally the same can be said for any mon with a unique niche. This is a silly assertion to make. Any party of one is S++ at that party.

The pressure Dugtrio applies is, in my opinion, being way overhyped.

 

[volx757]

The highlighted sections I flat out have to disagree with.

"it achieves 100% of the KOs that it aims to": This is flat out untrue and theorymonning. On paper, yes, Dugtrio is capable of doing that. In practice, Dugtrio is WAY to frail to 100% KO anything 100% of the time. Rocks are down? Can't 100% KO a bunch of threats because it no longer has Focus Sash. Barring a slow U-Turn, Dugtrio is entirely prediction reliant; you have to make sure it won't be hurt on the switch or else it loses the ability to KO a lot of the threats it intends to trap and KO.

"Within it's niche, Dugtrio is S++ rank, performing reliably at choosing a KO it wants and then getting it": Literally the same can be said for any mon with a unique niche. This is a silly assertion to make. Any party of one is S++ at that party.

The pressure Dugtrio applies is, in my opinion, being way overhyped.

I'd like to point out that in bolded section one, the key phrase is "that it aims to." As in, when it comes to battle time and you've scoped out what you want it to remove. NOT as in "it can KO anything 100% of the time." Never made that claim.
And you don't need a slow u-turn, usually you revenge stuff and it's a guaranteed revenge, you shouldn't be switching it in on attacks unless absolutely necessary.

Second bolded section, yes, that's exactly the point I was making. That dugtrio is absurdly good at it's unique niche (as one could say of Shedinja, as well, for example), but not deserving of S/A+ rank with regards to the meta as a whole.

 

[pika pal]

In my opinion, a mon's viability ranking should reflect how well it can be used and how it should be considered in the metagame as a whole. I can't see Dugtrio higher than A- (albeit I support consideration for that rank) based on what I consider the viability rankings to represent.

The thing that has been discussed at length, and I'm sure no body is arguing against, is that Dugtrio's trapping ability makes it indispensable to Stall/defensive teams, and counterplay to what Dugtrio is put on the team for is extremely tricky because it prevents Switching, one of the most fundamental and basic mechanics the metagame depends on. Dugtrio played well almost guarantees the removal of at least one problem mon it aims for, which is a huge deal for teams that depend on defensive synergy and removal of offensive cores. In terms of what it does and the value to the team when needed, Dugtrio is a very powerful mon.

On the other hand, Dugtrio being good at that role does not make it the most defining presence in the metagame persay, which is what I think is the primary thing reflected at the higher ranks. A good team HAS to be prepared to deal with the things in S-Rank and A+ rank for sure, and needs to at least avoid weakness to as much of the A and A- rank mons as it can manage. A team won't get far if it can't do anything about Landorus-T, Ash-Greninja, Tapu Fini, and such, but while Dugtrio needs to be played around very carefully for sure, it's not a mon the average team will prepare very hard for, and in fact may not bother with since beatin Dugtrio is not really in control of if you have a good mon on your team given Dugtrio's linear style, but more to whether you can get Dugtrio into an unfavorable situation of never being in front of the thing its out to eliminate. You don't necessarily play against it by building "do I have a Duggy check?" so much as "how can I minimize the need to field Heatran in case of Dugtrio?"

In this regard, Dugtrio strikes me as something that primarily constrains in battle play more than the combination of that and teambuilding the way other high ranked mons do. It feels like an odd paradox of requiring next to no dedicated preparation but an immense amount of in battle prediction, reading, pressuring, etc. It's a very weird mon to try and rank because of how unique its offering to the metagame is.

 

[TheMohZone]

A major drawback of greninja compare to oras is the insane speed creep from phero and tapu koko. While teams don't necessarily pack more counters against greninja (not that they can ofc), the meta has adapted to a point where teams are far more prepared against the ultra fast sweepers, and this hurts one of greninja's major strength in the oras era in its speed.

Neither of them can come in on it though? Which is exactly like ORAS

Greninja is so frail it dies to anything, and Priority was everywhere in ORAS, be it Bravest Bird who has Braved his last Bird this gen, or otherwise. The common scenario was Greninja comes in on something it beats, be it as a revenge, off a U-Turn or on a Prediction, doesn't matter, and then something dies. That has not changed this gen.

Tapu Koko can't come in on Gunk Shot, none of the Tapus can. Phero can't come in on a slight breeze. They can revenge kill Greninja the same way Talonflame or Mega Pinsir or Scizor (Since Greninja isn't staying a Water Type) or a Scarfer or a Fast Mega or anything like that came in and Forced it out Last gen. Greninja still got banned, it was still good. Not saying its banworthy now, i have no strong feelings one way or another, but literally NOTHING has changed for Greninja. If anything, the lack of Scarfers beyond Lele and Phero and the limited number of naturally fast pokemon being run (Alakazam, Koko, Phero again...Greninja itself?) and priorities non existence made Greninja BETTER. How Greninja is played against or is dealt with hasn't changed, the pokemon that do that same job have.

And again, the fear of Ash-Greninja only works in Regular Greninja's favour.

 

[Tressed]

Mega Scizor in A Rank seems like a really strange outlier to me when it doesn't seem that strong in the current meta at all. Just going to list stuff here cause I'm struggling to put this into any kind of real paragraph.

• Volcarona and Charizard X are enjoying surges in popularity thanks to Scarf Tapu Lele being common and Tapu Fini being as good as it is. Both of these mons are horrible for Mega Scizor, since it basically gives them free reign to set up on it. It also provides opportunities for Charizard Y and Marowak (if missing Knock Off) to come in as well, which is not something to be taken lightly.
• Similar to how Scizor was in ORAS, most teams just aren't weak to Scizor at all. Skarmory, Toxapex, and Celesteela are all fairly common on defensive builds, and all three trash Scizor pretty badly. Add that B L O O M D O O M Heatran is basically the standard set and is pretty common on offense, and its hard to find a matchup where Mega Scizor really performs well.
• Tapu Lele turns SD Scizor into nearly dead weight. With Psychic Terrain up, its nearly impossible for Scizor to clean against any kind of offense if they keep Lele alive. This shouldn't be such a big deal but when last month's usage shows Lele on nearly 30% of teams on ladder and has solid tournament showing as well, its definitely something to consider when going into a ladder environment.
• Pursuit Scizor hasn't changed much since ORAS, but the issue is that there really aren't that many targets left to trap. Latios is seeing much lower usage than in ORAS, Latias is nearly irrelevant, and Gengar doesn't see much use either. Unlike other Pursuit trappers, Mega Scizor isn't actually that strong, so it won't be chunking neutral targets like Tyranitar or Weavile might.

Even though Mega Scizor is still solid (being one of the best Megagross answers is a good selling point), the meta seems super hostile to it right now. The lack of good matchups and the number of things that take advantage of it don't really lend themselves to an A rank mon. It's probably better suited to A- for now.

 

[Ash Borer]

I think Scizor is capable of adatping to the hostile meta. While youre right that swords dance is not rly viable, 3 attacks + roost is a very strong pivot that can punish a lot of its common switch ins. Knock Off is excellent support, it lures in and whacks marowak, and removes potential shed shells from skarmory, heatran, toxapex and celesteela. Patching up any weakness a team that relies on dug or mags to trap these mons might have. Superpower is also a wonderful heatran lure for teams that need it gone.
Secondly while it is true that volcarona, charizard and others can counter scizor, I dont find this negatively affecting scizor too much, as it simply uturns on these Pokemon. With good hazard control scizor can quite effectively act as a midgame pivot that cam absorb damage, force.hazard damage and gain momemtum. While its true pokemon like tapu bulu and lele carry ways of breaking past scizor, they dont always, and scizor can still be used to keep theae terrors from destroying your team.