Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[TimG57867]

I can totally get behind Pheramosa getting knocked up to A+. While Pheramosa is indeed mad frail and has a limited movepool, these 2 faults don't make it any less of a dominant threat. While it is true that priority and Choice Scarf users can revenge her easily due to her bad bulk, the problem here lies in that, by definition of revenging, you have to lose a Pokemon first. And this in turn raises 2 more issues:

1. You have to sacrifice something just get a Pokemon in that can safely revenge her. With dual 137 offenses, even resisted hits are going to leave a mark. And often you'll be in situations where finding a good mon to sack will be a scary prospect because, depending on where you are in the match, you may not be able to sack anything without exposing yourself to one of her teammates. Ooh, did you have to sack your Tangrowth just keep your Mega Alakazam alive as a speedy attacker? Well good luck stopping Mega Metagross now. Mind you this is a situation many Pokemon can put you in, but Pheromosa is particularly scary at this because her incredible speed tier backed by potent dual offenses which allow her to run multiple sets despite limited coverage.

2. More importantly, your opponent often doesn't even HAVE to leave Pheromosa in. Right off the bat, she's currently rocking 2nd strongest and outright fastest U-Turn in the tier. If she's not Choice locked she can potentially just U-Turn on out leaving a decent mark on you. And even if she can't use U-Turn, your opponent can just simply switch her out, especially if it's early in the match where many of her teammates are still healthy. Pheromosa can work both in the early and late game thanks to her speed and U-Turn so it'll be tricky to catch her with your revenger at the right time and before she hasn't already weakened your team too much.

Now you may ask why I am making a big deal out of revenging. Why not just carry a mon that walls her? Problem there is that only one OU Pokemon walls her sets provided it wasn't already weakened is Toxapex and if Toxapex does get weakened, by say Stealth Rock, HP Ground from Timid Specs Mosa can become 2HKO.

0 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 124-146 (40.7 - 48%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And due to the nature of Toxapex, only stall and certain balance builds can utilize it so offense is left ragged.

And then we have to go back to how, despite her horrendous defensive stats and limited movepool, she still can role with several sets. Her coverage, while not the best, gets the job done. Ice Beam to keep Landorus and bulky Dragons at, Poison Jab to put the Tapus on notice, and HP for a nasty surprise are just enough to allow her to threaten a lot of the meta and give her several options for sets:

• She can be Life Orbed and capable of U-Turning out on the Fly while still doing good damage
• She can be Banded to unleash devastating High Jump Kicks and U-Turns
• She can be Specs to surprise your physical walls with Bug Buzz, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power
• She can be Focus Sashed'd to better ensure something gets whacked and screw over priority and scarf users bar a well placed Water Shuriken.
• She can use a Choice Scarf to let her outspeed everything while applying her Beast Boost to one of her offensive stats, making her a nasty cleaner.
• She can be super real and surprise you with a Quiver Dance set to capitalize on the switches she often forces and clean late game.

When you look at all those options, it becomes clear that making a team that can handle effectively without being susceptible to something else is a tall order. Like Greninja (though to not as a ridiculous extent), her fraility does not make her a 1 trick pony. You have to hope you currently have a Pokemon in/switch in a mon that can handle the set she's currently roling. If it's not a Life Orb, figuring her out can be trickier as thanks to her max 447 speed, it can be tough to tell what Choice item she's using provided you haven't safely brought in a good choice mon yourself. And we see that with all those sets, even revenging isn't a fullproof answer as beyond simple switching, she could have a Focus Sash to eat your eat your hit and bob your scarf mon/priority user or have a Scarf herself to make Scarf revenge out of the question. And if she's got Tapu Lele as her winglady, priority gets taken off the table as a good answer completely. And all of this is further backed by a wicked ability in Beast Boost which she can easily use thanks to her speed.

At the very least she should be no lower than Greninja Ash. Great as it is, it HAS to get a kill to start wrecking things. Pheromosa doesn't. No good OU pivots can safely zoom around her as they're either too frail or fear a coverage move. With the right moves and set, she can 2HKO most if not all of OU's best walls bar Toxapex, especially with hazards.:

252 SpA Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 184-217 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 219-258 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 488-576 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 174-205 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


And naturally, offensively inclined mons can't switch safely for squat unless you know the set. And as far as sets go, I only covered stuff currently considered conventional. Given her offenses and Beast Boost ability, I wouldn't be surprised if people start trying to find ways for her to use Z-moves at some point, however viable that may be. I mean imagine her getting an accurate safe Fighting type nuke that can net her a Beast Boost and is still usable afterwards. I really feel that could work in the right situation.

But I digress. Overall, Pheromosa, does have shortcomings. But they aren't enough to downplay how threatening she can really be and aren't anymore overbearing then the weaknesses of some mons in A+. I think some people underestimate just how versatile she is. You can get so used to dealing with physical Pheromosa's, only for a QD or Specs one to pop up and screw you with HP or Bug Buzz. Pheromosa puts clear pressure on teambuilding with almost no good OU mons that can blanket check/counter her and good players having plenty of ways to circumvent revenge kill attempts. Given all this and the presence of mons like Tapu Koko and Greninja Ash which I feel aren't nearly as unpredictable, she certainly deserves an A+ rank.

Edit: Here's a replay for kicks!:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-526693150

Bonus points for the guy using both Ash-Ninja and Tapu Koko losing and Psychic Terrian screwing Water Shuriken like I said it often does below.

 

[Photofluid]

I can totally get behind Pheramosa getting knocked up to A+. While Pheramosa is indeed mad frail and has a limited movepool, these 2 faults don't make it any less of a dominant threat. While it is true that priority and Choice Scarf users can revenge her easily due to her bad bulk, the problem here lies in that, by definition of revenging, you have lose a Pokemon first. And this in turn raises 2 more issues:

1. You have to sacrifice something just get a mon in that can safely revenge her. With dual 137 offenses, even resisted hits are going to leave a mark. And often you'll be in situations where finding a good mon to sack will be a scary prospect because, depending on where you are in the match, you may not be able to sack anything without exposing yourself to one of her teammates. Ooh, did you have to sack your Tangrowth just keep your Scarf Lele alive to so that you have a fast mon to check your opponents offensive threats? Well good luck stopping Mega Metagross now. Mind you this is a situation many Pokemon can put you in, but Pheromosa is particularly scary at this because her incredible speed tier backed by potent dual offenses which allow her to run multiple sets despite limited coverage.

2. More importantly, your opponent often doesn't even HAVE to leave Pheromosa in. Right off the bat, she's currently rocking 2nd strongest and outright fastest U-Turn in the tier. If she's not Choice locked she can potentially just U-Turn on out leaving a decent mark on you. And even if she can't use U-Turn, your opponent can just simply switch her out, especially if it's early in the match where many of her teammates are still healthy. Pheromosa can work both in the early and late game thanks to her speed and U-Turn so it'll be tricky to catch her with your revenger at the right time and before she hasn't already weakened your team too much.

Now you may ask why I am making a big deal out of revenging. Why not just carry a mon that walls her? Problem there is that only one OU Pokemon walls her sets provided it wasn't already weakened is Toxapex and if Toxapex does get weakened, by say Stealth Rock, HP Ground from Timid Specs Mosa can become 2HKO.

0 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 124-146 (40.7 - 48%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And due to the nature of Toxapex, only stall and certain balance builds can utilize it so offense is left ragged.

And then we have to go back to how, despite her horrendous defensive stats and limited movepool, she still can role with several sets. Her coverage, while not the best, gets the job done. Ice Beam to keep Landorus and bulky Dragons at, Poison Jab to put the Tapus on notice, and HP for a nasty surprise are just enough to allow her to threaten a lot of the meta and give her several options for sets:

• She can be Life Orbed and capable of U-Turning out on the Fly while still doing good damage
• She can be Banded to unleash devastating High Jump Kicks and U-Turns
• She can be Specs to surprise your physical walls with Bug Buzz, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power
• She can be Focus Sashed'd to better ensure something gets whacked and screw over priority and scarf users bar a well placed Water Shuriken.
• She can use a Choice Scarf to let her outspeed everything while applying her Beast Boost to one of her offensive stats, making her a nasty cleaner.
• She can be super real and surprise you with a Quiver Dance set to capitalize on the switches she often forces and clean late game.

When you look at all those options, it becomes clear that making a team that can handle effectively without being susceptible to something else is a tall order. Like Greninja (though to not as a ridiculous extent), her fraility does not make her a 1 trick pony. You have to hope you currently have a Pokemon in/switch in a mon that can handle the set she's currently roling. If it's not a Life Orb, figuring her out can be trickier as thanks to her max 447 speed, it can be tough to tell what Choice item she's using provided you haven't safely brought in a good choice mon yourself. And we see that with all those sets, even revenging isn't a fullproof answer as beyond simple switching, she could have a Focus Sash to eat your eat your hit and bob your scarf mon/priority user or have a Scarf herself to make Scarf revenge out of the question. And if she's got Tapu Lele as her winglady, priority gets taken off the table as a good answer completely. And all of this is further backed by a wicked ability in Beast Boost which she can easily use thanks to her speed.

At the very least she should be no lower than Greninja Ash. Great as it is, it HAS to get a kill to start wrecking things. Pheromosa doesn't. No good OU pivots can safely zoom around her as they're either too frail or fear a coverage move. With the right moves and set, she can 2HKO most if not all of OU's best walls bar Toxapex, especially with hazards.:

252 SpA Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 184-217 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 219-258 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 488-576 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 174-205 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


And naturally, offensively inclined mons can't switch safely for squat unless you know the set. And as far as sets go, I only covered stuff currently considered conventional. Given her offenses and Beast Boost ability, I wouldn't be surprised if people start trying to find ways for her to use Z-moves at some point, however viable that may be. I mean imagine her getting an accurate safe Fighting type nuke that can net her a Beast Boost and is still usable afterwards. I really feel that could work in the right situation.

But I digress. Overall, Pheromosa, does have shortcomings. But they aren't enough to downplay how threatening she can really be and aren't anymore overbearing then the weaknesses of some mons in A+. I think some people underestimate just how versatile she is. You can get so used to dealing with physical Pheromosa's, only for a QD or Specs one to pop up and screw you with HP or Bug Buzz. Pheromosa puts clear pressure on teambuilding with almost no good OU mons that can blanket check/counter her and good players having plenty of ways to circumvent revenge kill attempts. Given all this and the presence of mons like Tapu Koko and Greninja Ash which I feel aren't nearly as unpredictable, she certainly deserves an A+ rank.

I don't feel like the guy to say it but every bit of these details have already been accounted for when we dropped her all the way to A so it is better to say something new.

As of the rank itself, I think the recent discussion around phero comes from people's improved understanding(e.g. new sets) towards this mon? It would be a lot better if we focus on the new things instead of restarting everything from the basis tbh because I suppose most people have already read a lot of the same lines a month ago.

To make the post a bit more meaningful I guess I should contribute some points as well. Her recent surge in viability seem to come from the quiver dance sets combined with optimized hidden power options(which had slow progress thx to her awkward STAB and coverage). The main significance is that they added some unpredictability to the pokemon.

Personally though I don't quite see that as enough. Certainly she become a lot better and is probably the best mon in the A rank right now. The problem is, none of the added dimension of the pokemon has had fundamental effects on how she functions. We now requires our checks to be more healthy to fight her new found left field but we still only need the same pokemon to do so and none of the old checks seem to stop functioning.

Meanwhile, the meta does not seem to be getting any more friendly (or hostile) towards Phero. So I am not seeing her break the barrier.

And since Ash-Greninja is mentioned I would just say something quick. Greninja, while also being frail, is actually able to tank some resisted hits if necessary. Ash-Greninja has priority move to deter many revenge killers (yeah, Phero included). Lastly, his brother Protean Greninja is almost more thretening than all of the phero sets combined.

 

[TimG57867]

I don't feel like the guy to say it but every bit of these details have already been accounted for when we dropped her all the way to A so it is better to say something new.

As of the rank itself, I think the recent discussion around phero comes from people's improved understanding(e.g. new sets) towards this mon? It would be a lot better if people start saying something new instead of restarting everything from the basis tbh because I suppose most people have already seen the same lines a month ago.

I am aware that this isn't news. But I feel the need to restate it in this manner because given all these qualities, Greninja-Ash and especially Tapu Koko really don't have any business being above her. Since we all know what Pheromosa does, I'll elaborate on why she's as viable, (if not more) than Ash Ninja and Koko.

Without a boost, 95 Spa, even in Electric Terrain, isn't too overbearing and because of it's frailty, it often doesn't even get the luxury of running Sp. Attack boosting nature. Physical sets on Tapu Koko just aren't all that great because of a lack of strong, low risk physical STAB and ET boosted Thunderbolts offering good damage as it is. Plus his highest damaging physical move will have Pokemon immune to it. Sure Tapu Koko can pivot well, but if his teammates start going down, it's only a matter of time before he's cornered by something he can't break past as HP and even his Dazzling Gleam off a neutral base 95 just aren't going won't be enough very often. It does have a Calm Mind set but often, a strong physical attacker or special wall will stop you before you can really get going. And while Koko his bulkier, he isn't bulkier enough to just hard switch either. Even a resisted hit can do a bit more to him than you'd like. This makes Tapu Koko much more predictable and few well made teams will won't have an answer to whatever set he's running, unlike Pheromosa who can be deadly even after you know her set. And his Terrain doesn't offer as much unique utility for a team overall as the other Tapus do. Misty Terrain handles sleep well enough which itself is much rarer, Alolan Raichu kinda sucks, and making a team solely around Electric spam is not a good idea when so many immunities and resists like Tangrowth, Marowak, and Landorus are rolling around. And if his terrain gets overrided/runs out, he becomes even easier to force out/wall. I should also add that because of said underwhelming offensive stats, Choice Scarf on Koko is bad 90% of the time.

Greninja-Ash has a better case because his stats are more on par with Pheromosa and he offers but priority. But until he gets that kill, he damage output will also be underwhelming. If he runs a Specs, he'll be forced out very frequently, especially in the early game, which can restrict him. This becomes even more glaring if he's Life Orb'd (provided that's actually viable.). And when it comes to Protean Greninja being around, TBH, Ash Greninja doesn't get nearly as much from pretending to be Protean as the other way around. Protean can kill Ash Greninja checks. A pre-Battle Bond Greninja can't really do the same, especially with his lack of tutor moves. A mon you'd switch into Protean will probably handle an unboosted Battle Bond just fine. And once you realize he's Battle Bond, counterplay becomes much easier. And unlike Pheromosa, Ash Greninja can't really bounce between both sides of the offensive spectrum because his physical STABs just don't justify the effort it takes to transform him without rain. For instance:

252 Atk Greninja-Ash Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I suppose he has Rain and Z-Moves to work with too but I there's probably better Z-Move users than him and given Pelliper's current B rank, I don't think Rain alone can have him 1-UP Pheromosa. And given everything I pointed out, I fail to see how he puts anymore fear into your opponent than Pheromosa. Sure the prospect of Battle Bond forces switches, but unlike Pheromosa, unboosted Greninja has plenty of safe switch ins. And even after he transforms, good walls can still limit Ash-Greninja and Tapu Lele can hinder Water Shuriken. And just like Koko, while he is bulkier, he's not bulkier enough to hard switch which makes the bulk moot.

Given these factors, I don't see how one can justify having Koko and Greninja Ash ABOVE Pheromosa. Both those mons are more restricted in their roles and don't threaten the entire meta the same way Pheromosa does.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

It's just completely dead weight vs good stall teams, and balance has some solid answers in rocky helmet Toxapex or marowak

I don't know what hyper offense does but the meta game as adapted and it literally doesn't have the coverage or power of things like Greninja.

Koko made sleep moves unviable alone and kind of pushed all the other offensive electric pokemon out of the tier it could stand to drop a spot tho

 

[TimG57867]

It's just completely dead weight vs good stall teams, and balance has some solid answers in rocky helmet Toxapex or marowak

I don't know what hyper offense does but the meta game as adapted and it literally doesn't have the coverage or power of things like Greninja.

Koko made sleep moves unviable alone and kind of pushed all the other offensive electric pokemon out of the tier it could stand to drop a spot tho

I am not saying they're bad. I am arguing they aren't better. Specs HP Ground threatens Wak and Pex and Ash Greninja can struggle with stall mons too. Tapu Koko, while great in utility in pivoting, doesn't offer the same destructive power she does.

I really don't want them to drop. I want mosa to rise. I am not questioning their prevalence in the metagame. I am questioning how they're MORE prevalent than Pheromosa.

 

[Photofluid]

I am aware that this isn't news. But I feel the need to restate it in this manner because given all these qualities, Greninja-Ash and especially Tapu Koko really don't have any business being above her. Since we all know what Pheromosa does, I'll elaborate on why she's as viable, (if not more) than Ash Ninja and Koko.

Without a boost, 95 Spa, even in Electric Terrain, isn't too overbearing and because of it's frailty, it often doesn't even get the luxury of running Sp. Attack boosting nature. Physical sets on Tapu Koko just aren't all that great because of a lack of strong, low risk physical STAB and ET boosted Thunderbolts offering good damage as it is. Plus his highest damaging physical move will have Pokemon immune to it. Sure Tapu Koko can pivot well, but if his teammates start going down, it's only a matter of time before he's cornered by something he can't break past as HP and even his Dazzling Gleam off a neutral base 95 just aren't going won't be enough very often. It does have a Calm Mind set but often, a strong physical attacker or special wall will stop you before you can really get going. And while Koko his bulkier, he isn't bulkier enough to just hard switch either. Even a resisted hit can do a bit more to him than you'd like. This makes Tapu Koko much more predictable and few well made teams will won't have an answer to whatever set he's running, unlike Pheromosa who can be deadly even after you know her set. And his Terrain doesn't offer as much unique utility for a team overall as the other Tapus do. Misty Terrain handles sleep well enough which itself is much rarer, Alolan Raichu kinda sucks, and making a team solely around Electric spam is not a good idea when so many immunities and resists like Tangrowth, Marowak, and Landorus are rolling around. And if his terrain gets overrided/runs out, he becomes even easier to force out/wall. I should also add that because of said underwhelming offensive stats, Choice Scarf on Koko is bad 90% of the time.

Greninja-Ash has a better case because his stats are more on par with Pheromosa and he offers but priority. But until he gets that kill, he damage output will also be underwhelming. If he runs a Specs, he'll be forced out very frequently, especially in the early game, which can restrict him. This becomes even more glaring if he's Life Orb'd (provided that's actually viable.). And when it comes to Protean Greninja being around, TBH, Ash Greninja doesn't get nearly as much from pretending to be Protean as the other way around. Protean can kill Ash Greninja checks. A pre-Battle Bond Greninja can't really do the same, especially with his lack of tutor moves. A mon you'd switch into Protean will probably handle an unboosted Battle Bond just fine. And once you realize he's Battle Bond, counterplay becomes much easier. And unlike Pheromosa, Ash Greninja can't really bounce between both sides of the offensive spectrum because his physical STABs just don't justify the effort it takes to transform him without rain. For instance:

252 Atk Greninja-Ash Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I suppose he has Rain and Z-Moves to work with too but I there's probably better Z-Move users than him and given Pelliper's current B rank, I don't think Rain alone can have him 1-UP Pheromosa. And given everything I pointed out, I fail to see how he puts anymore fear into your opponent than Pheromosa. Sure the prospect of Battle Bond forces switches, but unlike Pheromosa, unboosted Greninja has plenty of safe switch ins. And even after he transforms, good walls can still limit Ash-Greninja and Tapu Lele can hinder Water Shuriken. And just like Koko, while he is bulkier, he's not bulkier enough to hard switch which makes the bulk moot.

Given these factors, I don't see how one can justify having Koko and Greninja Ash ABOVE Pheromosa. Both those mons are more restricted in their roles and don't threaten the entire meta the same way Pheromosa does.

I edited in why Ash-Greninja should be above Phero in the original post (I would say though I do think Ash-Grenj could drop to A in the long run).

As of Koko, I think you are just underrating Elec as an offensive typing. Boltbeam has insane coverage (although interestingly there has yet to be an Elec attacker with a proper ice move), and is especially deadly in a meta where Land-T edges out most of the ground types because it means just HP ice is often enough.

Also, the reason there are so much Elec resist going around is precisely because no one wants Spec Koko(which hits harder than scarf LeLe and has better typing) to run through their entire team that easily.

Last but not least, having a terrain ability has the added benefit of removing other terrains which plays a gigantic role this Gen.

For example

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

tl;dr: Ash-Gren is a strong sweeper while Koko can wallbreak

 

[TimG57867]

I edited in why Ash-Greninja should be above Phero in the original post (I would say though I do think Ash-Grenj could drop to A in the long run).

As of Koko, I think you are just underrating Elec as an offensive typing. Boltbeam has insane coverage (although interestingly there has yet to be an Elec attacker with a proper ice move), and is especially deadly in a meta where Land-T edges out most of the ground types because it means just HP ice is often enough.

Also, the reason there are so much Elec resist going around is precisely because no one wants Spec Koko(which hits harder than scarf LeLe and has better typing) to run through their entire team that easily.

Last but not least, having a terrain ability has the added benefit of removing other terrains which plays a gigantic role this Gen.

For example

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I regards to the edited post, I agree that Protean Greninja is leagues more viable and I never really argued that. When I did mention him, it was to demonstrate Ash bluffing Protean doesn't compare to the inverse.

In regards, to Pheromosa's metagame position, I am inclined to agree that the meta hasn't really had a paradigm shift in or against her favor. I just feel that she in general is worthy of A+ ranking. Bar a good stall team, there aren't many team set ups she doesn't have potential to contribute against. Similarly, Ash Ninja, while stronger, can have issues with stall too given often it uses Toxapex and Chansey. Ash's Ninja's Water Shuriken and higher bulk, I'd argue, would be reasons why she is not MORE viable than him.

You did raise good points about Tapu Koko though. I could have seen Specs being a monster early in the meta and being why we have so many Electric answers now. But with those answer's now established and proving to have good general utility, I feel Koko can't really go super offensive anymore like Mosa which doesn't make him worse, but differentiates them. You got me on the Terrain swapping though. Given that, I'd argue that IF Pheromosa can't rise, Ash Ninja should at least join her in A.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Staraptor is BL now so it needs to be ranked somewhere.

 

[Gary]

Staraptor is BL now so it needs to be ranked somewhere.

There is no rule that states we have to rank something if it's OU by usage. Even if there was a rule like this on previous VRs, I'm not enforcing it on this one. If we deem it viable, then it will be ranked. Raptor might be good enough to be ranked, but it by no means has to.

 

[New World Order]

A ---> A+
Move it up. I'm not sure why it was placed in A to begin with. It's supposed movepool issues are far overblown as it has more than enough tools to play with to threaten most of the tier. And while it dies to a summer breeze, it's status as the fastest U-turner allows it to get out of many unfavourable matchups. Can't 2HKO the mon that just switched in? U-turn out for some free momentum and come back later. Unlike most Volt-turners, Pheromosa has a way to deter Helmet users from coming in with the threat of Ice Beam. Pheromosa also has a unique ability to make people misplay. The threat of Beast Boost makes many designated checks unviable if you grab a nice speed boost and outspeed that Scarf Garchomp, or snag a nice spec attack boost to power through Venusaur. So if you get it in against a sufficiently weakened mon, you have initiative to do whatever you want and let your opponent panic about what to sack.

B+ --->A-
Absolutely move it up. This thing checks so many top tier threats it's not even funny, especially the Assault Vest set. Lando-T, Mega-Meta, Ash Greninja, Garchomp, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, and Zygarde are all part of the long list of Pokemon that have trouble breaking past this thing. With balance being the most common playstyle by far atm, a lot of teams rely on chip damage and pressuring switches to wear down opposing teams before letting their sweepers go wild. That doesn't work with Tangrowth though thanks to Regenerator. It's also very difficult to switch into thanks to surprisingly good coverage between Giga Drain+EQ+Hidden Power and Knock Off cripping many would be ideal switch-ins. It's only issue is that this thing is dead weight against stall, but that shouldn't take away how valuable it is against pretty much every other playstyle.

A- ---> B+: Agree

Can someone enlighten me as to why Rotom-W is A- worthy? I don't claim to be an expert on Rotom-W, but I used it on, like, half of my ORAS teams; I really want to say it's good, but I definitely don't find it quite as effective anymore. The lack of recovery really hurts it in a metagame full of hard hitters that 2-3HKO it with ease, so it's not nearly as mindless of a blanket check as it was before. Basically every offensive Pokemon in A or S can deal upwards of 40% to it with an STAB or ubiquitous coverage move, and with multiple powerhouses seen on every offensive team I can't say keeping Rotom-W healthy enough is easy at all. I've rarely found myself wanting Rotom-W over another defensive Water like Tapu Fini or another pivot like Landorus-T or Tapu Koko, which provide either more bulk, more utility, and/or simply more firepower. Its resistances, namely Flying, aren't nearly as relevant anymore; offensive Flying-types are generally on the decline (excluding Z-Fly Salamence, which 2HKOs with Outrage anyway). Other Pokemon it used to check, like Landorus or Mega Metagross, now have Z-Moves and Psychic Terrain to bust through it effortlessly. Rotom-W still has the same respectable power and annoying options of Will-O-Wisp (the burn nerf hurts) and Pain Split, but I think it looks a bit underwhelming compared to the rest of A-. It fits better with the other fallen ORAS titans in B+: still situationally useful, but not exactly equipped to handle the newest threats. I'd love for Rotom-W to stay in A-, but realistically I don't see why it should. Can anyone explain?

While I agree that Rotom-W is not the meta-defining force it was in generations past, it's unique typing and set of resistances pretty much always warrants it consideration when building a balanced team. Being a bulky water with access to Levitate is huge. It's one of the few mons that resist Ground+Flying with Skystrike being used by everyone. Spikes stacking is better than ever, with Ferrothorn and Skarmory chugging alone continuing what they've been doing forever, and Protean Greninja offering Hyper Offense a viable setter that survived bans for the first time since Deoxys-D. Sure we have more spikes removal options like Fini, but they're prone to being worn down due to similar recovery issues as Rotom-W, and Toxic Spikes basically puts Fini on life support. The Will-o-Wisp nerf hurts, but you still get to cut the opposing Pokemon's attack, and Rotom-W is still great for generating momentum against all 3 playstyles thanks to Volt-Switch+Wisp making it a pain to switch into. As for checking the top tier threats, no it can't single handedly blanket a third of the meta anymore. But it still matches up favourably against many mons such as Lando-T, Metagross, Celesteela, Tapu Fini etc. Also, like in previous gens Rotom-W is not a Pokemon to hard counter top tier threats. It's meant to be a glue-mon that serves as a backup check for many mons while being able to pose some semblence of an offensive presence. The top tier threats like Greninja, Mega-Meta etc are so versatile nowadays, and with so many typespam cores on the ladder (especially double ground and double psychic), it's just not sufficient to bring one check anymore. I'm sorry but a team's only answer to Mega Metagross is a Rocky Helmet Landorus-Therian, then it should probably be deleted. For the record, I don't care either way if Rotom-W is A- or B+ as it's similar in power level to most of the mons in either subtier, but it most definitely has a niche in this meta. I personally feel A- is the more appropriate slot, but whatever.

 

[quziel]

So, this is a bit of an odd nom, but Heracross => C-

So, the entire reason to use heracross is due to its ability to basically 6-0 common stall builds with either a SD guts set, or a banded guts set. Well, that, and the dumb power of a guts boosted facade, which lets you do dumb stuff like KO defensive lando-t after rocks if you get a SD up, which is pretty much guaranteed, as you can sorta set up on it.

It does compete heavily with Alolan Marowak for a team slot, but it does edge it out in some cases, as it can come in for basically free vs any of M-Sable's attacks, making it somewhat easier to play vs stall, as it doesn't have to worry much about Foul Play. Additionally, its resistance to ground lets it come in on, and optionally set up on some common defensive pivots such as Defensive Landorus-T and Venusaur-Mega.

Additionally, compared to other wallbreakers, it has a much more usable speed stat, which while under the useful benchmark of 91, is still a very usable 85, which basically lets it beat out every defensive mon in the tier. Being a stallbreaker that beats dugtrio fairly well also helps.

Some Calcs to show its proficiency vs Defensive mons:

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 214-252 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 284-335 (74.5 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 183-216 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye: 346-408 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive Calcs

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 93-111 (30.8 - 36.8%) 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%)
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%)
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 120-142 (39.8 - 47.1%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 86-102 (28.5 - 33.8%)
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 204-242 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 204-242 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

Basically, it can come in on a lot of OU's defensive pivots and walls, and proceed to break them, while still having the speed to beat some of Bulky Offense's slower 'mons.

A few replays vs bulkier teams

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-526860687
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-526863487

Edit:

had to redo a calc or too, was missing positive nature on toxapex, changes Facade to 3hko, eq remains a 2hko at +0, also added Tapu fini. Would also emphasize that Heracross can safely run EQ, as losing megahorn doesn't give up too much, as most ghosts are weak to, or at least neutral to EQ.

set used

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Earthquake
- Close Combat

 

[MagicHoraceGrant]

So, this is a bit of an odd nom, but Heracross => C-

So, the entire reason to use heracross is due to its ability to basically 6-0 common stall builds with either a SD guts set, or a banded guts set. Well, that, and the dumb power of a guts boosted facade, which lets you do dumb stuff like KO defensive lando-t after rocks if you get a SD up, which is pretty much guaranteed, as you can sorta set up on it.

It does compete heavily with Alolan Marowak for a team slot, but it does edge it out in some cases, as it can come in for basically free vs any of M-Sable's attacks, making it somewhat easier to play vs stall, as it doesn't have to worry much about Foul Play. Additionally, its resistance to ground lets it come in on, and optionally set up on some common defensive pivots such as Defensive Landorus-T and Venusaur-Mega.

Additionally, compared to other wallbreakers, it has a much more usable speed stat, which while under the useful benchmark of 91, is still a very usable 85, which basically lets it beat out every defensive mon in the tier. Being a stallbreaker that beats dugtrio fairly well also helps.

Some Calcs to show its proficiency vs Defensive mons:

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 214-252 (54.4 - 64.1%)
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%)
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%)
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) +1
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 284-335 (74.5 - 87.9%)
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 237-279 (77.9 - 91.7%)

Defensive Calcs

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 93-111 (30.8 - 36.8%) 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 111-132 (36.8 - 43.8%)
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%)
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 120-142 (39.8 - 47.1%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 86-102 (28.5 - 33.8%) -

Basically, it can come in on a lot of OU's defensive pivots and walls, and proceed to break them, while still having the speed to beat some of Bulky Offense's slower 'mons.

A few replays vs bulkier teams

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-526860687
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-526863487

The problem with herracross is that is just a worse version of buzzwole. Yes herracross hits clef harder but there are better wall breakers that can do what herracross does without the negative effect of burn damage. Also toxapex could one v one this with haze and recover and clef can one v one herracross.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Heracross is not a worse version of Buzzwole. They clearly do different things, as Hera is innitially faster and immediately becomes frightening with Guts (plus the pseudo status immunity), whereas Buzzwhole cannot snowball like this before it gets a Beast Boost. There's nothing of what his Heracross did in those replays that could have been done If he picked up Buzzwole.

Also:Lol Sd buzzwole

 

[Schpoonman]

Pretty sure we had this talk a few weeks ago. Heracross hits far harder than any other physical Bug-type thanks to Guts, and Toxapex is NOT a safe switch, because Jolly Guts Facade is a clean 3HKO, so spamming Haze is out, and if at any point you Recover to continue "walling" Heracross you run the risk of them clicking Swords Dance and getting 2HKO'd. Buzzwole is generally more useful (Bug/Fighting is a TREMENDOUS typing for absorbing physical hits, and Buzzwole has both the stats and movepool to be extremely effective in that role), but they occupy very different niches, and should be considered for such.

Heracross is not a great Pokemon in SMOU. I would even go so far as to say it's actually not even that good. There's enough fat Pokemon in the tier that you can switch around until you've got a safe switch to something or you can sack something to get rid of Heracross (PDef Celesteela dropping it with Air Slash, taking a little over half from Jolly Guts CC at +0), and it's far too slow to keep up with Offense (U-turn Scarfcross when, GameFreak?).

The Bug/Fighting Ultra Beasts do generally outclass Heracross, but don't mistake it for being 100% inferior when it has a niche that neither Pheromosa nor Buzzwole can beat.

 

[Scribble]

A -> A+: Agreed. Pretty much all arguments have been made for this rising and I don't feel like I have anything else to contribute. But I would support a rise for this.

C -> Somewhere Higher: Strongly agreed. I have advocated for this thing's rise in an earlier post in the thread, and my opinion of it has only grown. It can utilize Scarf sets with its nice 101 base Speed tier to outpace +1 Salamence, Zard X, and Scarf Tapu Lele, it has a fantastic movepool, and it can also utilize some Nasty Plot/Agility/Double Dance sets surprisingly well. It can function similarly to Double Dance Lando-T with the Electrium Z, or this Z Heal Block set I've seen a couple people talking about to break stall. It also provies both an Electric and Ground immunity, two valuable types to be immune to in this meta. This thing is definitely not as bad as the other two electrics in C, Magneton and Xurkitree, and it should not be compared to either of them. C+ is the minimum to what I would move it to, but I wouldn't mind this getting to B-, as I think its viability is on par to that of Latias, Kabutops, and Suicune.

A- -> B+: Agreed. Rotom has fallen off a lot this gen. The power creep this gen was huge, and the things that Rotom was valuable at checking have either fallen off or have new toys to overpower it with. Lando-T now has Rockium Z to blow past it. Mega Metagross has Psychic Terrain it can abuse. Tyranitar has fallen off and Hippowdon is pretty non existent. Sand in general, which Rotom was good to check, has fallen off. When teambuilding I rarely if ever find myself asking "How do I beat Rotom? What should I do to prepare for it?" However, I definitely keep Zard Y, Dugtrio, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, and others in A- in mind when teambuilding. Rotom just doesn't seem like that much of a threat compared to everything else in A-, and I feel like B+ is a much better fit for it.

B+ -> A-: Agreed. Tangrowth is super good right now. It checks so many things in the tier with its Assault Vest set, which is imo the best set right now. Look at all the things in the S and A ranks that Tangrowth can either check, counter, or eat a hit and cripple it with Knock Off or another move. Non Fly Lando-T, Mega Metagross, Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Garchomp, Magearna, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, Zygarde, among others. The fact that Tangrowth can heal itself with Regenerator is amazing, and it works as such a great pivot in the tier. It pairs really well with Heatran, eating up those Ground and Water hits that Heatran hates, while Heatran is immune to Poison and Fire, 4x resists Bug and Ice, and resists Flying. Definitely worthy of A-.

 

[TimG57867]

Heracross is not a worse version of Buzzwole. They clearly do different things, as Hera is innitially faster and immediately becomes frightening with Guts (plus the pseudo status immunity), whereas Buzzwhole cannot snowball like this before it gets a Beast Boost. There's nothing of what his Heracross did in those replays that could have been done If he picked up Buzzwole.

Also:Lol Sd buzzwole

Yeah. Buzzwole probably has better versatility and viability thanks to his base Def, Roost, and Beast Boost, but Heracross can distinguish itself in the stall matchup.

• Base 85 speed gets the jump on more stall mons
• It can force out walls like Chansey and capitalize with Swords Dance which boosts destructive power faster than Bulk Up
• Base 140 power Facade gives it splendid neutral coverage with its Fighting STAB so the fat Fairies can't get all cute around it
• It uses a Burn Orb and Guts which makes Heracross much harder cripple with status, (M-Sab probably would have burned Buzzwole given the chance)
• Heracross has an actual Sp. Def stat (Base 95) which means it doesn't get memed as hard by the special attackers on stall as Buzzwole.

252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 416-492 (99.5 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

And he still gets to rock the Ground and Fighting resists so Duggy doesn't bother him much. (Unless it's running Aerial Ace which pretty much no one does).

But like Schpoonman said, beyond his surprisingly good stall matchup, Heracross gets outclassed by Mosa and Buzzer in just about every other category. But the fact that he actually has a niche (and against a super controversial playstyle no less) is probably enough to get him a C- considering the other things in there.

EDIT: RIP Heracross.

 

[bludz]

After some brief discussion the VR council has decided to blacklist Heracross.

Please move on and any further posts about the topic will be deleted, as per blacklist rules.

explanation

This is like the third time it's been nominated and we never seriously considered adding it to the ranking. Its matchup against stall is overblown, because stall has methods to play around it and you have to win a few 50 / 50s sometimes. Yeah the only way you beat Unaware Clefable is on the switch with Facade, otherwise it can come in on any other move and essentially OHKO you. Skarm with Rocks not up can beat it too. Yes it is threatening to stall, but it isn't an instant 6-0 unbeatable matchup for every stall team. There are other stallbreakers anyway, like Sub Toxic Zygarde, Dugtrio (ironically) + insert list of threats that hate Toxapex, Manaphy, and so forth. These mons also offer something against other playstyles.

SD Guts Heracross has a pretty awful matchup against most offense, and it's only gotten worse now that Flyinium Z has found its way onto a few mons that didn't used to carry Flying coverage. So if you do put it on your team, it's basically only for the stall matchup. There really isn't much of a reason to use Heracross at all, especially with competition from mons like SD Tapu Bulu and Buzzwole which offer a lot more defensive utility. I'm not going to elaborate much further, because the council agreed that Heracross is not viable enough to rank. Remember that the viability rankings are a guide - pokemon not found on the rankings can be used, and can be used to success, if you know what you are doing. But this thread should provide a good outlook on the metagame for beginners, and Heracross is not a pokemon that should be recommended in SM OU.

You can PM me if you want, but it's probably not going to change anything.

 

[p2]

i think celesteela should be s.

incredible offensive mon and incredible defensive mon, but i mainly want to focus on the insane pressure offensive variants can apply to teams. its typing is pretty much perfect for a setup sweeper due to the myriad of resistances, immunities and the multiple meta trends it takes advantage of: it loves scarfchomp being one of the most splashable glues on offensive because its easy setup fodder, it loves tang being everywhere because again, lots of setup opportunities and due to the nature of autotomize+beast boost, it snowballs extremely easily especially when backed by a huge as fuck movepool and options that bolster its main stab in flynium z.

there's a reason this thing is one of the most consistent defensive and offensive mons in the tier, which almost nothing can claim to be other than like lando-t. the consistency and the overall stupid effectiveness of cele is definitely enough to push it up to s because it's a notch above most of the current a+ ranks and although it may be the weakest s rank, that shouldn't prevent it from rising. signs of its consistency can be seen so far in spl where it's rocking one of the highest win% of all ou mons, and i don't believe its offensive set has been used even once yet, which just attests to how solid defensive is and how ridiculously punishing it can be to face. (i seriously feel if you dont bring this thing down to <25% it can and will find a way to heal all the way back up because abuses so many common mons)

seriously, this mon has done nothing but be incredible and i consider it to be a very defining force in the metagame, much more than some of the current a+ ranks are.

 

[Gary]

VR UPDATE

Rises

A ---> A+

B+ ---> A-

C ---> C+

Unranked ---> C

Drops

S ---> A+

A+ ---> A

A+ ---> A

Some of these should be pretty self-explanatory, others might come to a bit of a surprise, but not than again, not so much if you have been keeping up with SPL. Pheromosa has made a huge comeback by showcasing the power of its special sets; Specs, Quiver Dance, and offensive spin. On top of that, people are beginning to sleep on Scarf which has given it better match ups and allowing it to spam HJK more frequently. Specs is a scary breaker that is very difficult to switch into while still having a very high Speed stat, and QD has been a cool late game sweeper for its ability to blast through stuff like Celesteela with Z Focus Blast. These offensive capabilities have re-earned its spot back in A+. Tangrowth has seen a MASSIVE amount of usage in SPL as a very solid pivot, being able to take on a wide range of threats such as Bulu, Koko, Fini, Lando-T, Ash Gren, and Zygarde, all in one slot. While Assault Vest is easily its best set, it can still run a physically defensive spread to better handle Mega Metagross, as well as punish Lando a bit more. Gastrodon and Jellicent were both risen/added because they can check some pretty prominent threats in the tier atm, and can fit nicely on some balance builds. If you want a more detailed reasoning feel free to PM me, but I think it should be pretty self-explanatory just looking at the rankings themselves.

And for the drops. Tapu Lele has been seen as a defining force for quite some time now, mainly for its Scarf set being so strong while being able to pressure offense. Unfortunately now with the influx in sweepers such as Mence, Scolipede, and Volcarona, Scarf isn't nearly as useful as it used to be, as you are giving up the ability to use something like Scarf Chomp/Nihilego or forcing you to resort to using another Scarfer. It's still very threatening in general, but it's fallen out of favor quite a bit for other Choice Scarf users, and has resorted to mostly using its stallbreaker set, which is what still makes it so threatening. However, its ability to stallbreak is heavily limited by Duggy, and forces you to forgo a Z move for Shed Shell. Regardless, it's still a very solid Pokemon with limited switch-ins and the ability to tear apart bulky cores with ease, as well as still being a decent Scarfer. Magearna and Fini are both suffering from similar issues, as they are both heavily prepared for and easily pressured at the moment, Fini in particular. While it's a great hazard remover and one of the few Ash Gren switch-ins in the tier, its lack of reliable recovery and inability to immediately threaten Pokemon such as Lando-T or Chomp makes it very prone to being worn down over time, allowing something like Ash Gren, Pheromosa or Zard-X to muscle through it late game. Fini's great defensive typing is just heavily hindered by how pressured it is to Defog, and how rockers such as Lando-T, Chomp, and Heatran can threaten to heavily weaken it in exchange for getting rid of hazards, which in could end up you just getting swept by Ash or Pheromosa. Magearna's Assault Vest set is similar in how so many Pokemon pressure the ever living fuck out of it to a point where it can't reliably check stuff like Greninja late game, and Shift Gear sets struggle to sweep.

If you have any further questions, feel free to PM. I honestly don't have any discussion points for you guys unfortunately, although Thundy-T still wasn't really discussed much and we still can't find a place to rank it.

 

[Mikael]

Woah. Definitely did not expected lele to drop, considering how much people have been so vocal about her. But its kinda understandable. she isn't at same level of lando or mega gross.

 

[power]

I'd like to nom T-tar to B+

Tyranitar is certainly not at the level of the other Pokemon in A-. It was put there because of its Banded Set (At least according the sets thread). It's not as threatening as some of the offensive powerhouses in that rank (Like ZardY, which actually outspeeds things) and requires a great deal of prediction and actually being able to hit Edge. Now typically for a nomination, you should mention what has changed for the mon, but it seems T-tar was just dropped in A- at the beginning of the gen, because, y'know, it's ttar and we kinda assumed it would be good but turns out SM has finally become too fast for it, especially with four new fairies in the tier. Banded hits really hard and can take a hit from most special attackers but its honestly a subpar Banded Mon and its not really needed to trap things, especially with Lele just getting downgraded.

If you scroll through the other mons in A-, shit in there is threatening (hoopau, zardy, manaphy, mence, volcarona) or fulfills some other useful role like venu amoonguss magnezone dugtrio.

Ttar simply can't keep up in Sun Moon, it never really was at an A- Power Level this gen and should be in B+, or even lower.

Other than that, S through A- look super solid, ranking council has done a fantastic job with that.

 

[bruno]

I disagree with celesteela to S. It's a good poke, but it has to rely on leech seed/protect to heal up which can be easily abused by any good player(especially when u have smth like av tang which can just switch in and stop it from leeching+knocks lefties), plus you're not gonna tell me that thing is as good/as easy to spam in this meta as lando-t, gren or metagross, lol..

Gengar could raise a little bit, solely due to the lack of a good ghost resist on most teams, but it's fine where it is as well i suppose.

also nom mismagius to like c or c+. taunt np is p good vs stall and, again, lots of teams without ghost res(honestly most ghosts are probably good rn in general), and unlike gengar it's still packing levitate to check shit like landot

replay of my spl game with it

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-243559

Hoopa should drop a little bit, imo. It hardly checks anything and it's unable to beat stall with the presence of dugtrio, and most teams are packing something that "half-checks" it most of the time. The only decent set rn, imo, is scarf, which is rarely strong enough to put enough work vs most teams. Granted cb/specs still does well vs some balanced teams, but it's honestly a rare occasion atm

Gastrodon could raise as well. It's a fantastic tapu koko check(for now, maybe they'll start running gknot later), greninja check, gengar check, nihilego check, rotom check, annoys the hell out of rain, decent-ish magearna and celesteela check, list goes on. It just puts in work vs a lot of offensive teams and still does fine vs other ones. It can also be a deadly lategame sweeper with curse, but yeah, mainly the fact that it beats some of the top tier threats.

 

[Hookah Doncic]

Gyarados B Rank -> B+ Rank


Gyarados's amazing offensive typing and access to Dragon Dance make it an effective sweeper.. Aside from its durable typing and great base stat distribution, both of Gyarados’ abilities are viable in the current metagame. However what truly separates Gyarados this generation is the gift of Z Moves, in particular Z Bounce ( Supersonic Skystrike ) giving Gyarados a (160 BP) STAB move to remove a variety of threats.

As a matter of fact, its physical prowess with Supersonic Skystrike is further heightened due to its high Base attack stat on top of the potential of Moxie which make it viable as an offensive Pokemon allowing it to plough through threats. Giving Gyarados a one time shot to remove something with Z Bounce without the draw back of a two-turn move is what makes Gyarados truly a force to be reckoned with.

How is it in this meta? it shits on the backbones of offense / balance. Like commonly used lando / steel / water core and lando / ferro / fini or lando / tran / tang cores. With its bulk and nice typing it can set up on many pokemon.




---

Damage Calculations :

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 255-301 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 273-322 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


---

Replays with Z Bounce Gyarados showcasing the strong swings of momentum

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-243259 - Zamrock vs GTM spl game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-528736470 - ladder game against rain

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-528038960 - Ladder game of dos running though the six

 

[Anish]

---> Higher: Agree

I would like to support moving Thundurus-Therian to C+/B- or possibly even to B

Thundurus Therian is a pretty solid Pokemon right now, as it can help soft check some very important threats, like Z Fly Landorus Therian and Tapu Koko. Although Thundurus Therian faces some competition from other electrics like Tapu Koko and Thundy I, it can break past a lot of fatter grass types, especially Mega Venusaur, with much less chip. Its access to Volt Absorb helps it pressure Tapu Koko from clicking Thunderbolt, and preventing Volt Switch from gaining momentum, and its ground immunity helps with certain grounds like Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-Therian. It also can break past fatter builds like stall teams more easily, due to its higher Special Attack stat, and not being trappable by Dugtrio. Additionally, Thundurus Therian is not dead weight against bulky offense, unlike certain breakers as it is able to set up on Tapu Fini, and Agility sets can also outspeed every viable Scarfer in the game after a boost. It is also not as slow as other breakers, and has a 101 base speed tier which helps it revenge kill Pokemon like Charizard Mega Y . Due to all of these reasons, I feel that Thundy T is comparable to Thundy I this generation, if not better, and being 1 whole rank beneath it isnt really representative of it.

calcs

252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 126-150 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 234-276 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 138-163 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 265-312 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 244-288 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 223-263 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 474-558 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 631-744 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Ash Borer]

Ive been using Thundurus Therian and ive found it fairly underwhelming. The tier is littered with diverse and splashable electric resists. Marowak, ferrothorn, excadrill, venusaur, the list goes on. This forces Thundy to rely on a ton of team support to lure in and KO these problems, or to run 3 attacks which makes it kind of a lame cleaner compared to the likes of salamence, volcarona, magearna, pheromosa, landorus, etc who boost power and speed in 1 set. I wouldnt put it any higher than B.