Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Sergeant Spooky]

I can see Ninetales-A in B- cause it's better than most of the things in C+ and some stuff in B- but I can also see it in C+ because most things in B- are better than it. It has also gotten no SPL usage unlike a lot of the other things in those ranks.

But I think B- and C+ are kind of a mess, if I can make a few suggestions:

Minior -> C or C- what does this do? I haven't seen this thing in a long, long time. I don't see it doing very much in a very steel-heavy meta. Just look at all the stuff in A/S ranks that need to be gone/weakened for it to sweep, let alone the fact that its ability can be played around, making it even harder to use.

Togekiss - C+ this has a niche as a stallbreaker that can't be trapped by Dugtrio, but outside of that it can't accomplish much and I feel it has a lot less utility than a lot of things in B-, like Bronzong, Slowking, or Breloom. It also faces competition from Shed Shell CM Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu and Zygarde, who are much better against a wider variety of teams and who can also beat Dugtrio. In its very small role I also think Breloom, in B-, is better as SD Z-Stone Edge is just as difficult for stall to face, but it has Technician Mach Punch to retain effectiveness against offensive teams and it also has more variety in its viable sets.

Mew -> C+ the Mewnium-Z hype train is gone and this thing is actually not that great IMO. It could stay in B- for its Amnesia/Iron Def pass sets but I don't see how it's any better defensively than Slowking or Mantine, and even with a neat signature Z-move its offensive sets are kind of trash.

Nidoking -> B- this is better than everything in C+. Its coverage is absurd and it's actually really difficult to switch in to, it's a really good breaker especially against super common lando-t+Fini cores.

Ninetales-A -> B- kind of the reason I made this post and looked at the rankings around it. It's a unique support mon, in essence it's a dual screener and there's nothing else in the VR that's ranked for a dual screens set, I think, so it's difficult to gauge where it should go. Pretty much everything there is to say about it is in the analysis I wrote that someone linked. It's not splashable, but Veil teams can be really strong. It's very weak with 81 base SpA, but still threatens a lot of stuff with its good offensive typing. It's complete bait for steel types, but steel types can't prevent it from doing its job.

When I see C+, I see some stuff like Hippowdon, Azumarill and Mimikyu, who can all be pretty useful but often end up doing nothing of note. I also see Klefki, a support mon that loses to most hazard removers, and whose passiveness, coupled with the paralysis nerf, means it can taken advantage of by a variety of set-up sweepers.

As a support mon these are two things that set Ninetales-A apart from a lot of C+ mons. If there's one thing I can say about it, it's a). consistently useful, and b). nothing really prevents it from doing it job. Veil can only be removed with Defog but Ninetales-A beats almost every common defogger, and it can only be blocked by an opposing weather setter but only Y-zard really likes switching in to it. With its speed tier it can get up Veil fairly reliably, and with Encore, it's very hard to take advantage of.

Whenever I lose a game with Ninetales-A it's not because of Ninetales-A, it's because its teammates couldn't make good use of Veil. And often, Veil gets me out of really bad situations or at least makes it a whole lot easier to win. Because of its consistency in setting Veil and the potency of the move itself, I think Ninetales-A should be raised to B-.

 

[RedzoneX]

Absol-Mega: C- to Unranked

I'm not really sure why this pokemon is on the viability rankings, honestly. While it did benefit from the mega speed buff this generation making it safer to Mega Evolve, so did other offensive Megas, and Absol still retains its major flaw of incredibly poor defenses, as well as limited moveslots to use its coverage with. It's also received nearly no relevant high level usage (only 0.2% on high ladder and no SPL games). While I think it is possible that a skilled player could put Mega Absol to use, they could certainly do the same with any number of offensive threats currently in the generation, such as either form of Greninja, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, and so on. Mega Absol, while possessing unique positive qualities, cannot carve a niche compared to other choices available in the tier, and for this reason I believe it should not be ranked and recommended at this time.

 

[Colonel M]

Basically some nominations / discussion points I feel are worthwhile to delve into.

Mega Scizor B+ -> A-

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I think in fairness we were a little too hard on Mega Scizor. Let's be blunt, though, and admit that Mega Scizor is by no means close to its greatness in ORAS and older tiers. Regardless, Mega Scizor has been an awesome addition to teams that need something bulkier that can tackle some threats while offering U-turn and Bullet Punch to support. There's still the Pursuit set which is really good for making sure Mega Metagross almost never leaves safely and Swords Dance can still do a number to teams if they're not carrying the right tools. I confess that Scizor, offensively, is not the best anymore; however, defensively it is shining very well. Being one of the few Pokemon to put the stops on Mega Metagross alone is pretty good outside of our lord and savior Mojonbo. This one I agree is a little more controversial, but I would like to get the ball rolling to see how others' (Council / high OU players) feel about it as of now. I think that it's still flawed, but has a good use in a lot of teams and isn't necessarily a major detriment all the time thanks to U-turn. It's still a very strong and reliable defensive pivot, and I think the tier difference between Rotom-W and Mega Scizor seems a little much when, honestly, I think Rotom-W suffers more with the Will-O-Wisp nerf and its dual STABs being blocked more and more by bulky Grass-types.

Toxapex B+ -> A-

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Toxapex is not only for its use on Stall teams, but also because balance teams with Toxapex can really brick a lot of teams. While it appreciates stall teams much better due to having safety for its problematic weaknesses Toxapex still bodies the daylights out of a lot of threats and, in tandem with other Pokemon, really can put defensive pressure against the opponent. Though not a ton has changed for it, just being a really good staple to bulky as shit teams without requiring a ton of support help its case for rising in my opinion.

Pinsir (Mega) A- -> A

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Mega Pinsir right now is pretty wild. Though Mega Metagross does body it a bit and defensive Landorus-T causes issues (there's also Psychic Terrain I guess), it is a major threat to a lot of slower teams with Swords Dance, STAB Return, and Close Combat just doing a number to the majority of Pokemon. The amount of support it really needs is quite minimal and Mega Pinsir has a lot of cool new Fly spammers to coincide with it:

- Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T
- Supersonic Skystrike Celesteela
- Supersonic Skystrike Salamence
- Supersonic Skystrike Volcarona
- Supersonic Skystrike Dragonite
- Supersonic Skystrike Gyarados
- Supersonic Skystrike Talonflame (though honestly this is probably its worst contender).

Some definitely can use their other Z Moves too, which is the beauty of it. Honestly even though Spin / Defog support sounds a bit much Mega Pinsir is just so fucking brutal it can run a train through teams if they're way too bulky and things are crippled. Such example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245606

Notice here that rey only uses mons that help support the goal of blowing through Mega Pinsir's problematic Pokemon - Continental Crush Landorus-T and Magnezone. Even though fly spam is perfectly acceptable in Hyper Offense it is true that Mega Pinsir fits really well in balance teams just because of the sheer power and utility it brings.

Dragonite B- -> B

Hide

Note to self: Fix the on-site analysis.

Gigavolt Havoc Dragonite is an interesting enigma. Not only does +1 Gigavolt Havoc blow through a lot of Dragonite checks and counters it also can open up a lot of holes for teammates such as Ash-Greninja and Pheromosa. While Dragonite does lack Speed in comparison to its counterpart, Salamence, it still does a solid job of busting through things and being able to set up with Multiscale. I think Gigavolt Havoc Dragonite is a big reason to push it to B - consider that a lot of B mons are used for their quirky niches, and I think Dragonite fits that bill. I don't think it should go higher just as of yet, but definitely a contender for B.

Mojonbo (Tangrowth) A- -> A

Hide

Tangrowth has been seeing a ton of SPL play, and it is partly due to some of the insane stuff it can check. Rocky Helmet basically dicks all over Mega Metagross - forcing it to rely on flinching with Zen Headbutt (and thus risk a miss) or the low chance of freezing with Ice Punch. In return Mojonbo passively damages with Rocky Helmet and threatens majority of switch-ins with Sleep Powder. It's probably one of the best Zygarde answers in the tier and, IMO, one of the major reasons no one should use Extreme Speed on their Zygarde anymore. Assault Vest is also a solid pivot that can check rather intimidating Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, though of course Brave Bird exists (thankfully Mojonbo is durable physically defensive even with no investment). It's the best bulky Grass-type thanks to Regenerator giving it free health when it switches out and just helping Tangrowth apply a lot of pressure from the backline. Even though I personally love Mega Venusaur since its Poison-typing does help it out a lot sometimes and checks some things better with Thick Fat, Tangrowth is probably the clear-cut choice for not costing a Mega slot and just having two very powerful ways to shake up an opponent's team.

As a person who started with DPP it's wild to see how damn good Mojonbo is right now.

Volcarona A- -> A

Hide

Offensive and bulky Volcarona have been making their debuts in SPL and have been very dominating in the ladders. Outside of Zard X and SS Salamence it is one of the biggest reasons why a team should always pack a Choice Scarf user. Though it does have some struggles against specific Pokemon it just can really ravage a lot of teams at +1 and, sometimes, is bulky enough to get a second one. If only Josh saw the real broken move is not Dragon Dance, but Quiver Dance because boosting your Special Defense makes Volcarona that much harder to kill. Bulky is also impressive because it tackles Pheromosa very well and can manhandle Kartana under a lot of circumstances. This mon is a big reason why Mega Scizor dropped to B+ after all, and I think it's long overdue to raise this thing to A as well.

Dugtrio being a solid mon alongside this thing helps a lot too.

Mega Sableye A- -> A

Hide

Call me stupid all you want, but I'm not joking that the combination of Dugtrio and Mega Sableye are two major reasons why stall can be very successful without select choices such as Tapu Bulu. Mega Sableye may not be a great Pokemon to some people, but what it body blocks is immense - it makes laying entry hazards against it harder, methods of beating stall with Taunt tactics that much more difficult, can shut down a Pokemon from freely switching with Knock Off, and handles Pokemon like Heatran provided that it didn't receive a Flash Fire boost. Without trudging on the opinions of others or anything I want to state that this Pokemon well deserves A Rank. Even if it is a Pokemon that is only seen on stall teams it is a HUGE reason why stall is very successful. I find Mega Sableye and Dugtrio to be the King and Queen of the Chess Stall Team, though obviously Toxapex, Skarmory, Chansey, and Clefable help a lot.

Celesteela A+ -> S

Hide

Ohhhh boy.

Celesteela is one of those Pokemon that just get better the more you look at it. Specially Defensive invalidates so many Pokemon it's literally absurd, and the rising threat of Autotomize Supersonic Skystrike devastates a lot of teams that don't have reliable answers to it. Being a natural Beast Boost Pokemon just helps it so much in various portions of the game as it either gets fatter or it hits a lot harder. Low key I think this Pokemon deserves S - if you don't prepare for Celesteela well you're toast. And even when you do it can make its number one trapper, Magnezone, not always reliable to take it down. When you can tackle the best Steel-type trapper in the game you know you fucked up.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/celesteela/

For those wanting the set:

Celesteela @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
- Autotomize
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain

I realize, at first, I turned the set down. But when I played it more I realized how fucking brutal the set was. Playing with a rather interesting team made by mulgokizary really helped sell me on how fucking good this Pokemon is offensively, which I think was the only reason it was held back from rising much further in my opinion. With Specially Defensive bodying a lot of threats and Offensive cleaning house lategame I think it is long overdue to raise Thiccstella to S.

Nidoking C+ -> B-

Hide

For the record I definitely agree with Nidoking's rising. It's a good Pokemon that can shut down balanced teams because it is rather difficult to switch into. ABR's replay is not a bad example of this, and I think you can tell by the current metagame trends on how brutally difficult it is to reliably switch into Nidoking. Being a terrifying Pokemon to face in Sticky Webs just makes it that much better IMO, though obviously that method has flaws. Could gravitate higher, but for now B- will suffice.

Kabutops B- -> C+

Hide

Put bluntly - Kabutops is pretty bad from rain's perspective. Even if you argue that Low Kick is a big reason to use it over other rain sweepers it just does not do it justice. It also loses one of its more powerful niches - access to Aqua Jet. Omastar literally drenches more Pokemon for rain teams than Kabutops ever will, and being in the same tier is rather disgusting given how under performing Kabutops can be.

Mew B- -> C+

Hide

In its current form Mew is really bad. Its Support set is nothing to write home about, it isn't seriously used as a Defogger unless it's desperate, and Mewnium Z has been a major letdown (though I think not seeing any team that structures nicely with it is partly to blame). Rock Polish Genesis Supernova seems pretty good, but it requires a lot of support and the terrain can still be wiped by other Tapus.

Jellicent C -> Unranked

Hide

I nearly lost it at first when such a shit mon was added to the VR Tier list. Afterwards someone explained it a little more to me on the reasons. They helped me believe that it was okay...

...for about 5 minutes until I considered what circumstances it would be used on.

I presume the set would be similar to this for the record:

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Recover
- Taunt

So let's look over its "perks"

- No reliance on Scald's % chance for a burn.
- Taunt makes it a little less prone to setup.
- Recover, which is a huge deal.
- Bodies special Pheromosa pretty well and can toy around some variants of Mega Metagross and Greninja I guess? Maybe if it's something like Meteor Mash / Bullet Punch / Ice Punch / Earthquake or something.

Now let's look over its cons:

- Tapu Fini basically denies this Pokemon's existence. Misty Terrain is a hard stop to Will-O-Wisp + Hex from ever being effective against a lot of grounded Pokemon.
- Taunt does not necessarily stop a Pokemon from hitting +1. For example Omastar can still 2HKO Jellicent with Shell Smash-boosted Ancientpower while blocking Will-O-Wisp temporarily with Substitute, if wanted.
- Any Greninja with Dark Pulse and any Mega Metagross with Thunder Punch or Zen Headbutt invalidate this Pokemon's existence.
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 216-256 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - unless you run more Special Defense you're kind of fucked if Pheromosa is on point with prediction.
- What does this Pokemon do that other bulky Water-types, such as Toxapex, can't really do?

To outline more on the answer to the question, it does at least invalidate Toxapex's main moves of wearing a foe down (Toxic and Scald burns), but Jellicent also cannot safely switch into Toxapex due to Toxic (or even Toxic Spikes). Toxapex's higher bulk makes it much more resilient to threats whereas Jellicent rides a lot on its 3 immunities to keep it from being worn down. Will-O-Wisp and Hex is still a shaky combo to pull off since it invites Heatran for a free switch-in to smash something with a boosted Magma Storm. Heatran being faster means it can actually outgun Jellicent on the Taunt.

There's a lot more examples, but put bluntly - without replays for evidence I do not see how Jellicent is worthwhile to rank. Even I would rather use shit like Decidueye and Tentacruel before this thing, and I want those Pokemon out of the ranking thread too. It's almost insulting that Jellicent is actually higher than Decidueye, which in spite of being a totally shit mon is at least a Defog user with some momentum behind it. Why use Jellicent when I can use so many better bulky Water-types that accomplish roughly the same thing Jellicent does with less work and better results, such as Toxapex?

For another record, I would like

Thundurus-T to also rise, but the problem I have with it so far is that I personally haven't used it nor felt the need to. I think the gap between Thundurus and Thundurus-T need to close, though. I guess we could start slow and go for C+, though I really would like to aim at minimum for B-.

I also will use this post to outline what I think could rise and fall in the future, to maybe help egg some discussion or ask me questions on what I feel could go up or down:

Hide

Mega Charizard Y A- -> A

Especially in the Dugtrio meta it is really good. I think Mega Zard Y got mildly better with balance being more popular of a playstyle at the moment and some Hyper Offensive Pokemon struggling to bypass Zard Y's typing.

Gengar A- -> A

In due time I want to argue this one because I think Gengar is sleeper good right now. Being able to benefit from terrains is incredible to make use of techs such as Gigavolt Havoc on Electric Terrain or immunity from Sucker Punch / Bullet Punch in Psychic Terrain. Specs and Scarf are really strong, and All Out Attacker is solid. Taunt + Pain Split actually does a good number against stall teams too.

Gyarados B+ -> A-

I legitimately believe regular Gyarados is solid in this meta. Not only is it bulky enough to set up a single Dragon Dance, it actually is very capable of two sometimes depending on its matchups. Mega Scizor lacking any offensive punch, except when used by me, helps it a bit. It forces switches and Waterfall / Bounce and Supersonic Skystrike are hard to bypass. Taunt, Substitute, and Earthquake also compliment it pretty well in my opinion - though I would err towards Sub or Earthquake before Taunt maybe.

Mega Gyarados B- -> B

This one may be a bit more due to personal bias, but under the same vein it can set up on a lot of things with Intimidate and natural bulk. Both Mega Gyarados and regular Gyarados play off each other well - similar to Ash-Greninja and Greninja. Mega Gyarados still has a respectable Crunch behind it and can still do a number to stall teams. Mold Breaker is a solid ability when you can cheese through some Pokemon that would naturally give trouble such as Mega Sableye and Skarmory.

Keldeo A- -> A

Need more time with the meta, but in spite of bulky Grass-types rising Scarf Keldeo is still pretty good. Definitely worse than it was in ORAS, but I think it is a solid Pokemon.

Kartana B -> B+

I think in due time this could rise. It can live anything from Mega Metagross (outside of Hammer Arm) at least once worst-case scenario and Beast Boost snowball is incredible. Being able to live through physical pain is pretty good and, being honest, stall doesn't really enjoy this thing if Kartana is on point with All-Out Pummeling or with a little support.

 

[Nuked]

Basically some nominations / discussion points I feel are worthwhile to delve into.

Mega Scizor B+ -> A-

Hide

I think in fairness we were a little too hard on Mega Scizor. Let's be blunt, though, and admit that Mega Scizor is by no means close to its greatness in ORAS and older tiers. Regardless, Mega Scizor has been an awesome addition to teams that need something bulkier that can tackle some threats while offering U-turn and Bullet Punch to support. There's still the Pursuit set which is really good for making sure Mega Metagross almost never leaves safely and Swords Dance can still do a number to teams if they're not carrying the right tools. I confess that Scizor, offensively, is not the best anymore; however, defensively it is shining very well. Being one of the few Pokemon to put the stops on Mega Metagross alone is pretty good outside of our lord and savior Mojonbo. This one I agree is a little more controversial, but I would like to get the ball rolling to see how others' (Council / high OU players) feel about it as of now. I think that it's still flawed, but has a good use in a lot of teams and isn't necessarily a major detriment all the time thanks to U-turn. It's still a very strong and reliable defensive pivot, and I think the tier difference between Rotom-W and Mega Scizor seems a little much when, honestly, I think Rotom-W suffers more with the Will-O-Wisp nerf and its dual STABs being blocked more and more by bulky Grass-types.

Toxapex B+ -> A-

Hide

Toxapex is not only for its use on Stall teams, but also because balance teams with Toxapex can really brick a lot of teams. While it appreciates stall teams much better due to having safety for its problematic weaknesses Toxapex still bodies the daylights out of a lot of threats and, in tandem with other Pokemon, really can put defensive pressure against the opponent. Though not a ton has changed for it, just being a really good staple to bulky as shit teams without requiring a ton of support help its case for rising in my opinion.

Pinsir (Mega) A- -> A

Hide

Mega Pinsir right now is pretty wild. Though Mega Metagross does body it a bit and defensive Landorus-T causes issues (there's also Psychic Terrain I guess), it is a major threat to a lot of slower teams with Swords Dance, STAB Return, and Close Combat just doing a number to the majority of Pokemon. The amount of support it really needs is quite minimal and Mega Pinsir has a lot of cool new Fly spammers to coincide with it:

- Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T
- Supersonic Skystrike Celesteela
- Supersonic Skystrike Salamence
- Supersonic Skystrike Volcarona
- Supersonic Skystrike Dragonite
- Supersonic Skystrike Gyarados
- Supersonic Skystrike Talonflame (though honestly this is probably its worst contender).

Some definitely can use their other Z Moves too, which is the beauty of it. Honestly even though Spin / Defog support sounds a bit much Mega Pinsir is just so fucking brutal it can run a train through teams if they're way too bulky and things are crippled. Such example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245606

Notice here that rey only uses mons that help support the goal of blowing through Mega Pinsir's problematic Pokemon - Continental Crush Landorus-T and Magnezone. Even though fly spam is perfectly acceptable in Hyper Offense it is true that Mega Pinsir fits really well in balance teams just because of the sheer power and utility it brings.

Dragonite B- -> B

Hide

Note to self: Fix the on-site analysis.

Gigavolt Havoc Dragonite is an interesting enigma. Not only does +1 Gigavolt Havoc blow through a lot of Dragonite checks and counters it also can open up a lot of holes for teammates such as Ash-Greninja and Pheromosa. While Dragonite does lack Speed in comparison to its counterpart, Salamence, it still does a solid job of busting through things and being able to set up with Multiscale. I think Gigavolt Havoc Dragonite is a big reason to push it to B - consider that a lot of B mons are used for their quirky niches, and I think Dragonite fits that bill. I don't think it should go higher just as of yet, but definitely a contender for B.

Mojonbo (Tangrowth) A- -> A

Hide

Tangrowth has been seeing a ton of SPL play, and it is partly due to some of the insane stuff it can check. Rocky Helmet basically dicks all over Mega Metagross - forcing it to rely on flinching with Zen Headbutt (and thus risk a miss) or the low chance of freezing with Ice Punch. In return Mojonbo passively damages with Rocky Helmet and threatens majority of switch-ins with Sleep Powder. It's probably one of the best Zygarde answers in the tier and, IMO, one of the major reasons no one should use Extreme Speed on their Zygarde anymore. Assault Vest is also a solid pivot that can check rather intimidating Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, though of course Brave Bird exists (thankfully Mojonbo is durable physically defensive even with no investment). It's the best bulky Grass-type thanks to Regenerator giving it free health when it switches out and just helping Tangrowth apply a lot of pressure from the backline. Even though I personally love Mega Venusaur since its Poison-typing does help it out a lot sometimes and checks some things better with Thick Fat, Tangrowth is probably the clear-cut choice for not costing a Mega slot and just having two very powerful ways to shake up an opponent's team.

As a person who started with DPP it's wild to see how damn good Mojonbo is right now.

Volcarona A- -> A

Hide

Offensive and bulky Volcarona have been making their debuts in SPL and have been very dominating in the ladders. Outside of Zard X and SS Salamence it is one of the biggest reasons why a team should always pack a Choice Scarf user. Though it does have some struggles against specific Pokemon it just can really ravage a lot of teams at +1 and, sometimes, is bulky enough to get a second one. If only Josh saw the real broken move is not Dragon Dance, but Quiver Dance because boosting your Special Defense makes Volcarona that much harder to kill. Bulky is also impressive because it tackles Pheromosa very well and can manhandle Kartana under a lot of circumstances. This mon is a big reason why Mega Scizor dropped to B+ after all, and I think it's long overdue to raise this thing to A as well.

Dugtrio being a solid mon alongside this thing helps a lot too.

Mega Sableye A- -> A

Hide

Call me stupid all you want, but I'm not joking that the combination of Dugtrio and Mega Sableye are two major reasons why stall can be very successful without select choices such as Tapu Bulu. Mega Sableye may not be a great Pokemon to some people, but what it body blocks is immense - it makes laying entry hazards against it harder, methods of beating stall with Taunt tactics that much more difficult, can shut down a Pokemon from freely switching with Knock Off, and handles Pokemon like Heatran provided that it didn't receive a Flash Fire boost. Without trudging on the opinions of the council or anything I want to state that this Pokemon well deserves A Rank. Even if it is a Pokemon that is only seen on stall teams it is a HUGE reason why stall is very successful. I find Mega Sableye and Dugtrio to be the King and Queens of the Chess Stall Team, though obviously Toxapex, Skarmory, Chansey, and Clefable help a lot.

Celesteela A+ -> S

Hide

Ohhhh boy.

Celesteela is one of those Pokemon just get better the more you look at it. Specially Defensive invalidates so many Pokemon it's literally absurd, and the rising threat of Autotomize Supersonic Skystrike devastates a lot of teams that don't have reliable answers to it. Being a natural Beast Boost Pokemon just helps it so much in various portions of the game as it either gets fatter or it hits a lot harder. Low key I think this Pokemon deserves S - if you don't prepare for Celesteela well you're toast. And even when you do it can make its number one trapper, Magnezone, not always reliable to take it down. When you can tackle the best Steel-type trapper in the game you know you fucked up.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/celesteela/

For those wanting the set:

Celesteela @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
- Autotomize
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain

I realize, at first, I turned the set down. But when I played it more I realized how fucking brutal the set was. Playing with a rather interesting team made by mulgokizary really helped sell me on how fucking good this Pokemon is offensively, which I think was the only reason it was held back from rising much further in my opinion. With Specially Defensive bodying a lot of threats and Offensive cleaning house lategame I think it is long overdue to raise Thiccstella to S.

Nidoking C+ -> B-

Hide

For the record I definitely agree with Nidoking's rising. It's a good Pokemon that can shut down balanced teams because it is rather difficult to switch into. ABR's replay is not a bad example of this, and I think you can tell by the current metagame trends on how brutally difficult it is to reliably switch into Nidoking. Being a terrifying Pokemon to face in Sticky Webs just makes it that much better IMO, though obviously that method has flaws. Could gravitate higher, but for now B- will suffice.

Kabutops B- -> C+

Hide

Put bluntly - Kabutops is pretty bad from rain's perspective. Even if you argue that Low Kick is a big reason to use it over other rain sweepers it just does not do it justice. It also loses one of its more powerful niches - access to Aqua Jet. Omastar literally drenches more Pokemon for rain teams than Kabutops ever will, and being in the same tier is rather disgusting given how under performing Kabutops can be.

Mew B- -> C+

Hide

In its current form Mew is really bad. Its Support set is nothing to write home about, it isn't seriously used as a Defogger unless it's desperate, and Mewnium Z has been a major letdown (though I think not seeing any team that structures nicely with it is partly to blame). Rock Polish Genesis Supernova seems pretty good, but it requires a lot of support and the terrain can still be wiped by other Tapus.

Jellicent C -> Unranked

Hide

I nearly lost it at first when such a shit mon was added to the VR Tier list. Afterwards someone explained it a little more to me on the reasons. They helped me believe that it was okay...

...for about 5 minutes until I considered what circumstances it would be used on.

I presume the set would be similar to this for the record:

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Recover
- Taunt

So let's look over its "perks"

- No reliance on Scald's % chance for a burn.
- Taunt makes it a little less prone to setup.
- Recover, which is a huge deal.
- Bodies special Pheromosa pretty well and can toy around some variants of Mega Metagross and Greninja I guess? Maybe if it's something like Meteor Mash / Bullet Punch / Ice Punch / Earthquake or something.

Now let's look over its cons:

- Tapu Fini basically denies this Pokemon's existence. Misty Terrain is a hard stop to Will-O-Wisp + Hex from ever being effective against a lot of grounded Pokemon.
- Taunt does not necessarily stop a Pokemon from hitting +1. For example Omastar can still 2HKO Jellicent with Shell Smash-boosted Ancientpower while blocking Will-O-Wisp temporarily with Substitute, if wanted.
- Any Greninja with Dark Pulse and any Mega Metagross with Thunder Punch or Zen Headbutt invalidate this Pokemon's existence.
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 216-256 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - unless you run more Special Defense you're kind of fucked if Pheromosa is on point with prediction.
- What does this Pokemon do that other bulky Water-types, such as Toxapex, can't really do?

To outline more on the answer to the question, it does at least invalidate Toxapex's main moves of wearing a foe down (Toxic and Scald burns), but Jellicent also cannot safely switch into Toxapex due to Toxic (or even Toxic Spikes). Toxapex's higher bulk makes it much more resilient to threats whereas Jellicent rides a lot on its 3 immunities to keep it from being worn down. Will-O-Wisp and Hex is still a shaky combo to pull off since it invites Heatran for a free switch-in to smash something with a boosted Magma Storm. Heatran being faster means it can actually outgun Jellicent on the Taunt.

There's a lot more examples, but put bluntly - without replays for evidence I do not see how Jellicent is worthwhile to rank. Even I would rather use shit like Decidueye and Tentacruel before this thing, and I want those Pokemon out of the ranking thread too. It's almost insulting that Jellicent is actually higher than Decidueye, which in spite of being a totally shit mon is at least a Defog user with some momentum behind it. Why use Jellicent when I can use so many better bulky Water-types that accomplish roughly the same thing Jellicent does with less work and better results, such as Toxapex?

For another record, I would like

Thundurus-T to also rise, but the problem I have with it so far is that I personally haven't used it nor felt the need to. I think the gap between Thundurus and Thundurus-T need to close, though. I guess we could start slow and go for C+, though I really would like to aim at minimum for B-.

I also will use this post to outline what I think could rise and fall in the future, to maybe help egg some discussion or ask me questions on what I feel could go up or down:

Hide

Mega Charizard Y A- -> A

Especially in the Dugtrio meta it is really good. I think Mega Zard Y got mildly better with balance being more popular of a playstyle at the moment and some Hyper Offensive Pokemon struggling to bypass Zard Y's typing.

Gengar A- -> A

In due time I want to argue this one because I think Gengar is sleeper good right now. Being able to benefit from terrains is incredible to make use of techs such as Gigavolt Havoc on Electric Terrain or immunity from Sucker Punch / Bullet Punch in Psychic Terrain. Specs and Scarf are really strong, and All Out Attacker is solid. Taunt + Pain Split actually does a good number against stall teams too.

Gyarados B+ -> A-

I legitimately believe regular Gyarados is solid in this meta. Not only is it bulky enough to set up a single Dragon Dance, it actually is very capable of two sometimes depending on its matchups. Mega Scizor lacking any offensive punch, except when used by me, helps it a bit. It forces switches and Waterfall / Bounce and Supersonic Skystrike are hard to bypass. Taunt, Substitute, and Earthquake also compliment it pretty well in my opinion - though I would err towards Sub or Earthquake before Taunt maybe.

Mega Gyarados B- -> B

This one may be a bit more due to personal bias, but under the same vein it can set up on a lot of things with Intimidate and natural bulk. Both Mega Gyarados and regular Gyarados play off each other well - similar to Ash-Greninja and Greninja. Mega Gyarados still has a respectable Crunch behind it and can still do a number to stall teams. Mold Breaker is a solid ability when you can cheese through some Pokemon that would naturally give trouble such as Mega Sableye and Skarmory.

Keldeo A- -> A

Need more time with the meta, but in spite of bulky Grass-types rising Scarf Keldeo is still pretty good. Definitely worse than it was in ORAS, but I think it is a solid Pokemon.

Kartana B -> B+

I think in due time this could rise. It can live anything from Mega Metagross (outside of Hammer Arm) at least once worst-case scenario and Beast Boost snowball is incredible. Being able to live through physical pain is pretty good and, being honest, stall doesn't really enjoy this thing if Kartana is on point with All-Out Pummeling or with a little support.

I agree with everything here, but I think that if Toxapex moves to A- then Amoonguss should drop to B+. I don't see any reason to use it over Tangrowth / Toxapex on their respective playstyles. I think that we are really underestimating a lot of Pokemon like Keldeo, Gengar, and Kartana and they they will probably rise in the future. Thundurus-T could also definitely get a rise considering that it outspeeds the crucial 100 Speed tier with all these really dangerous sweepers like Volc and Salamance and reliable revenge kills +1 Gyarados.

 

[Colonel M]

I agree with everything here, but I think that if Toxapex moves to A- then Amoonguss should drop to B+. I don't see any reason to use it over Tangrowth / Toxapex on their respective playstyles. I think that we are really underestimating a lot of Pokemon like Keldeo, Gengar, and Kartana and they they will probably rise in the future. Thundurus-T could also definitely get a rise considering that it outspeeds the crucial 100 Speed tier with all these really dangerous sweepers like Volc and Salamance and reliable revenge kills +1 Gyarados.

I won't necessarily disagree 100%, but I think what is undersold about Amoonguss is that it's still a good pivot - Specially Defensive Amoonguss is still rather solid and Spore can still shut down something if there's nothing like Electric / Misty Terrain or Grass-types. Amoonguss also has STAB Sludge Bomb and Clear Smog which prevent it from being setup bait. I think Amoonguss is still really good - but it does face some fiercer competition from Tangrowth at this current time.

Regenerator still does a lot of favors for Amoonguss and it's still really good at bodying threats.

 

[Nuked]

I won't necessarily disagree 100%, but I think what is undersold about Amoonguss is that it's still a good pivot - Specially Defensive Amoonguss is still rather solid and Spore can still shut down something if there's nothing like Electric / Misty Terrain or Grass-types. Amoonguss also has STAB Sludge Bomb and Clear Smog which prevent it from being setup bait. I think Amoonguss is still really good - but it does face some fiercer competition from Tangrowth at this current time.

Regenerator still does a lot of favors for Amoonguss and it's still really good at bodying threats.

I made a post about Amoonguss on the page before this and one thing that I think that's pretty ironic is that even though it's supposed to counter Tapu Koko / Fini, it can't even spore anything that comes in because of the terrains. I agree with you that Amoonguss is good but I definitely think there's better options. In reality it still suffers from the same issue that Tangrowth does - lets stuff like Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, and Salamence setup (salamence is risky because of HP Ice).. If you'd like to read all my arguments you can look at the post that I made.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Basically some nominations / discussion points I feel are worthwhile to delve into.

Mega Scizor B+ -> A-

Hide

I think in fairness we were a little too hard on Mega Scizor. Let's be blunt, though, and admit that Mega Scizor is by no means close to its greatness in ORAS and older tiers. Regardless, Mega Scizor has been an awesome addition to teams that need something bulkier that can tackle some threats while offering U-turn and Bullet Punch to support. There's still the Pursuit set which is really good for making sure Mega Metagross almost never leaves safely and Swords Dance can still do a number to teams if they're not carrying the right tools. I confess that Scizor, offensively, is not the best anymore; however, defensively it is shining very well. Being one of the few Pokemon to put the stops on Mega Metagross alone is pretty good outside of our lord and savior Mojonbo. This one I agree is a little more controversial, but I would like to get the ball rolling to see how others' (Council / high OU players) feel about it as of now. I think that it's still flawed, but has a good use in a lot of teams and isn't necessarily a major detriment all the time thanks to U-turn. It's still a very strong and reliable defensive pivot, and I think the tier difference between Rotom-W and Mega Scizor seems a little much when, honestly, I think Rotom-W suffers more with the Will-O-Wisp nerf and its dual STABs being blocked more and more by bulky Grass-types.

Toxapex B+ -> A-

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Toxapex is not only for its use on Stall teams, but also because balance teams with Toxapex can really brick a lot of teams. While it appreciates stall teams much better due to having safety for its problematic weaknesses Toxapex still bodies the daylights out of a lot of threats and, in tandem with other Pokemon, really can put defensive pressure against the opponent. Though not a ton has changed for it, just being a really good staple to bulky as shit teams without requiring a ton of support help its case for rising in my opinion.

Pinsir (Mega) A- -> A

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Mega Pinsir right now is pretty wild. Though Mega Metagross does body it a bit and defensive Landorus-T causes issues (there's also Psychic Terrain I guess), it is a major threat to a lot of slower teams with Swords Dance, STAB Return, and Close Combat just doing a number to the majority of Pokemon. The amount of support it really needs is quite minimal and Mega Pinsir has a lot of cool new Fly spammers to coincide with it:

- Supersonic Skystrike Landorus-T
- Supersonic Skystrike Celesteela
- Supersonic Skystrike Salamence
- Supersonic Skystrike Volcarona
- Supersonic Skystrike Dragonite
- Supersonic Skystrike Gyarados
- Supersonic Skystrike Talonflame (though honestly this is probably its worst contender).

Some definitely can use their other Z Moves too, which is the beauty of it. Honestly even though Spin / Defog support sounds a bit much Mega Pinsir is just so fucking brutal it can run a train through teams if they're way too bulky and things are crippled. Such example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245606

Notice here that rey only uses mons that help support the goal of blowing through Mega Pinsir's problematic Pokemon - Continental Crush Landorus-T and Magnezone. Even though fly spam is perfectly acceptable in Hyper Offense it is true that Mega Pinsir fits really well in balance teams just because of the sheer power and utility it brings.

Dragonite B- -> B

Hide

Note to self: Fix the on-site analysis.

Gigavolt Havoc Dragonite is an interesting enigma. Not only does +1 Gigavolt Havoc blow through a lot of Dragonite checks and counters it also can open up a lot of holes for teammates such as Ash-Greninja and Pheromosa. While Dragonite does lack Speed in comparison to its counterpart, Salamence, it still does a solid job of busting through things and being able to set up with Multiscale. I think Gigavolt Havoc Dragonite is a big reason to push it to B - consider that a lot of B mons are used for their quirky niches, and I think Dragonite fits that bill. I don't think it should go higher just as of yet, but definitely a contender for B.

Mojonbo (Tangrowth) A- -> A

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Tangrowth has been seeing a ton of SPL play, and it is partly due to some of the insane stuff it can check. Rocky Helmet basically dicks all over Mega Metagross - forcing it to rely on flinching with Zen Headbutt (and thus risk a miss) or the low chance of freezing with Ice Punch. In return Mojonbo passively damages with Rocky Helmet and threatens majority of switch-ins with Sleep Powder. It's probably one of the best Zygarde answers in the tier and, IMO, one of the major reasons no one should use Extreme Speed on their Zygarde anymore. Assault Vest is also a solid pivot that can check rather intimidating Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, though of course Brave Bird exists (thankfully Mojonbo is durable physically defensive even with no investment). It's the best bulky Grass-type thanks to Regenerator giving it free health when it switches out and just helping Tangrowth apply a lot of pressure from the backline. Even though I personally love Mega Venusaur since its Poison-typing does help it out a lot sometimes and checks some things better with Thick Fat, Tangrowth is probably the clear-cut choice for not costing a Mega slot and just having two very powerful ways to shake up an opponent's team.

As a person who started with DPP it's wild to see how damn good Mojonbo is right now.

Volcarona A- -> A

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Offensive and bulky Volcarona have been making their debuts in SPL and have been very dominating in the ladders. Outside of Zard X and SS Salamence it is one of the biggest reasons why a team should always pack a Choice Scarf user. Though it does have some struggles against specific Pokemon it just can really ravage a lot of teams at +1 and, sometimes, is bulky enough to get a second one. If only Josh saw the real broken move is not Dragon Dance, but Quiver Dance because boosting your Special Defense makes Volcarona that much harder to kill. Bulky is also impressive because it tackles Pheromosa very well and can manhandle Kartana under a lot of circumstances. This mon is a big reason why Mega Scizor dropped to B+ after all, and I think it's long overdue to raise this thing to A as well.

Dugtrio being a solid mon alongside this thing helps a lot too.

Mega Sableye A- -> A

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Call me stupid all you want, but I'm not joking that the combination of Dugtrio and Mega Sableye are two major reasons why stall can be very successful without select choices such as Tapu Bulu. Mega Sableye may not be a great Pokemon to some people, but what it body blocks is immense - it makes laying entry hazards against it harder, methods of beating stall with Taunt tactics that much more difficult, can shut down a Pokemon from freely switching with Knock Off, and handles Pokemon like Heatran provided that it didn't receive a Flash Fire boost. Without trudging on the opinions of others or anything I want to state that this Pokemon well deserves A Rank. Even if it is a Pokemon that is only seen on stall teams it is a HUGE reason why stall is very successful. I find Mega Sableye and Dugtrio to be the King and Queen of the Chess Stall Team, though obviously Toxapex, Skarmory, Chansey, and Clefable help a lot.

Celesteela A+ -> S

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Ohhhh boy.

Celesteela is one of those Pokemon that just get better the more you look at it. Specially Defensive invalidates so many Pokemon it's literally absurd, and the rising threat of Autotomize Supersonic Skystrike devastates a lot of teams that don't have reliable answers to it. Being a natural Beast Boost Pokemon just helps it so much in various portions of the game as it either gets fatter or it hits a lot harder. Low key I think this Pokemon deserves S - if you don't prepare for Celesteela well you're toast. And even when you do it can make its number one trapper, Magnezone, not always reliable to take it down. When you can tackle the best Steel-type trapper in the game you know you fucked up.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/celesteela/

For those wanting the set:

Celesteela @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
- Autotomize
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain

I realize, at first, I turned the set down. But when I played it more I realized how fucking brutal the set was. Playing with a rather interesting team made by mulgokizary really helped sell me on how fucking good this Pokemon is offensively, which I think was the only reason it was held back from rising much further in my opinion. With Specially Defensive bodying a lot of threats and Offensive cleaning house lategame I think it is long overdue to raise Thiccstella to S.

Nidoking C+ -> B-

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For the record I definitely agree with Nidoking's rising. It's a good Pokemon that can shut down balanced teams because it is rather difficult to switch into. ABR's replay is not a bad example of this, and I think you can tell by the current metagame trends on how brutally difficult it is to reliably switch into Nidoking. Being a terrifying Pokemon to face in Sticky Webs just makes it that much better IMO, though obviously that method has flaws. Could gravitate higher, but for now B- will suffice.

Kabutops B- -> C+

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Put bluntly - Kabutops is pretty bad from rain's perspective. Even if you argue that Low Kick is a big reason to use it over other rain sweepers it just does not do it justice. It also loses one of its more powerful niches - access to Aqua Jet. Omastar literally drenches more Pokemon for rain teams than Kabutops ever will, and being in the same tier is rather disgusting given how under performing Kabutops can be.

Mew B- -> C+

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In its current form Mew is really bad. Its Support set is nothing to write home about, it isn't seriously used as a Defogger unless it's desperate, and Mewnium Z has been a major letdown (though I think not seeing any team that structures nicely with it is partly to blame). Rock Polish Genesis Supernova seems pretty good, but it requires a lot of support and the terrain can still be wiped by other Tapus.

Jellicent C -> Unranked

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I nearly lost it at first when such a shit mon was added to the VR Tier list. Afterwards someone explained it a little more to me on the reasons. They helped me believe that it was okay...

...for about 5 minutes until I considered what circumstances it would be used on.

I presume the set would be similar to this for the record:

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Recover
- Taunt

So let's look over its "perks"

- No reliance on Scald's % chance for a burn.
- Taunt makes it a little less prone to setup.
- Recover, which is a huge deal.
- Bodies special Pheromosa pretty well and can toy around some variants of Mega Metagross and Greninja I guess? Maybe if it's something like Meteor Mash / Bullet Punch / Ice Punch / Earthquake or something.

Now let's look over its cons:

- Tapu Fini basically denies this Pokemon's existence. Misty Terrain is a hard stop to Will-O-Wisp + Hex from ever being effective against a lot of grounded Pokemon.
- Taunt does not necessarily stop a Pokemon from hitting +1. For example Omastar can still 2HKO Jellicent with Shell Smash-boosted Ancientpower while blocking Will-O-Wisp temporarily with Substitute, if wanted.
- Any Greninja with Dark Pulse and any Mega Metagross with Thunder Punch or Zen Headbutt invalidate this Pokemon's existence.
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 216-256 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - unless you run more Special Defense you're kind of fucked if Pheromosa is on point with prediction.
- What does this Pokemon do that other bulky Water-types, such as Toxapex, can't really do?

To outline more on the answer to the question, it does at least invalidate Toxapex's main moves of wearing a foe down (Toxic and Scald burns), but Jellicent also cannot safely switch into Toxapex due to Toxic (or even Toxic Spikes). Toxapex's higher bulk makes it much more resilient to threats whereas Jellicent rides a lot on its 3 immunities to keep it from being worn down. Will-O-Wisp and Hex is still a shaky combo to pull off since it invites Heatran for a free switch-in to smash something with a boosted Magma Storm. Heatran being faster means it can actually outgun Jellicent on the Taunt.

There's a lot more examples, but put bluntly - without replays for evidence I do not see how Jellicent is worthwhile to rank. Even I would rather use shit like Decidueye and Tentacruel before this thing, and I want those Pokemon out of the ranking thread too. It's almost insulting that Jellicent is actually higher than Decidueye, which in spite of being a totally shit mon is at least a Defog user with some momentum behind it. Why use Jellicent when I can use so many better bulky Water-types that accomplish roughly the same thing Jellicent does with less work and better results, such as Toxapex?

For another record, I would like

Thundurus-T to also rise, but the problem I have with it so far is that I personally haven't used it nor felt the need to. I think the gap between Thundurus and Thundurus-T need to close, though. I guess we could start slow and go for C+, though I really would like to aim at minimum for B-.

I also will use this post to outline what I think could rise and fall in the future, to maybe help egg some discussion or ask me questions on what I feel could go up or down:

Hide

Mega Charizard Y A- -> A

Especially in the Dugtrio meta it is really good. I think Mega Zard Y got mildly better with balance being more popular of a playstyle at the moment and some Hyper Offensive Pokemon struggling to bypass Zard Y's typing.

Gengar A- -> A

In due time I want to argue this one because I think Gengar is sleeper good right now. Being able to benefit from terrains is incredible to make use of techs such as Gigavolt Havoc on Electric Terrain or immunity from Sucker Punch / Bullet Punch in Psychic Terrain. Specs and Scarf are really strong, and All Out Attacker is solid. Taunt + Pain Split actually does a good number against stall teams too.

Gyarados B+ -> A-

I legitimately believe regular Gyarados is solid in this meta. Not only is it bulky enough to set up a single Dragon Dance, it actually is very capable of two sometimes depending on its matchups. Mega Scizor lacking any offensive punch, except when used by me, helps it a bit. It forces switches and Waterfall / Bounce and Supersonic Skystrike are hard to bypass. Taunt, Substitute, and Earthquake also compliment it pretty well in my opinion - though I would err towards Sub or Earthquake before Taunt maybe.

Mega Gyarados B- -> B

This one may be a bit more due to personal bias, but under the same vein it can set up on a lot of things with Intimidate and natural bulk. Both Mega Gyarados and regular Gyarados play off each other well - similar to Ash-Greninja and Greninja. Mega Gyarados still has a respectable Crunch behind it and can still do a number to stall teams. Mold Breaker is a solid ability when you can cheese through some Pokemon that would naturally give trouble such as Mega Sableye and Skarmory.

Keldeo A- -> A

Need more time with the meta, but in spite of bulky Grass-types rising Scarf Keldeo is still pretty good. Definitely worse than it was in ORAS, but I think it is a solid Pokemon.

Kartana B -> B+

I think in due time this could rise. It can live anything from Mega Metagross (outside of Hammer Arm) at least once worst-case scenario and Beast Boost snowball is incredible. Being able to live through physical pain is pretty good and, being honest, stall doesn't really enjoy this thing if Kartana is on point with All-Out Pummeling or with a little support.

Really cool post. I want to respond to your the other mons you mentioned but I don't have time rn.
Most of the thing I generally agree with. In the case of Dragonite I have no clue so I asked a couple questions.


Scizor-Mega

No Opinion

I, personally, can't see Scizor rising when it consistently loses to many of the top tier threats. Scizor doesn't beat Greninja which is starting to carry hp fire more and more. Lando is more consistently offensive, the mere presence of Lele shutsdown any possibility of a sweep and can revenge with hp fire. While chomp is A+ because of scarf it still has access to SD Fire Fang. Countered by Celesteela. Can be NM by Fini and Taunted to stop Roosts/Defog. Both Charizards get free turns off of it etc.

However; I may be looking at it wrong. The defensive U-turn set is still a very good pivot, and I have seen people arguing that the defog set isn't complete ass cheeks, and since it can always be a 100% switch into Metagross I wouldn't be triggered by a rise.

Toxapex

Keep it A

I made a post already about Tox and I would be triggered by a rise.

Pinsir-Mega

No Opinion

I agree with everything here and a rise could be acceptable ig. One thing is the rise (second coming?) of Pheromosa. Now that Quiver Dance and Specs is so good it has the niche of being the only mega that beats them 1v1.

Dragonite

No Opinion

Do you think Gigavolt Havoc is better than SSSS? I honestly have no opinion on this and I'm interested to know if zFly wasn't good enough to push it to B and zTpunch isn't that much better does it really deserve being there. Do you have any replays of Gigavolt? I've used Gigavolt Havoc Flygon (kek) so I definitely have an idea about what it does but since they're completely different mons people would generally have different responses to each.

Tangrowth

Rise To A

Deserves being A. It's getting so much usage in SPL for a reason.

Volcarona

Rise To A

Fuck this mon but make it A for all the reasons he listed.

Sableye

Keep It A-

I think A- for Sableye is fair due to the amount of support it gives Stall. However thier have been no Sableyes on any other team archetype and I don't see it being as flexible as any of the other A ranked mons. Keep it A-

Celesteela

Keep It A+

I'm honestly torn on this. I love the Autotomise set and the Spdef set is so consistent in this meta being able to check/counter an extreme portion of the top threats in the tier. I'd keep it A+ just for the reason that it can be trapped. Although you can beat Mag at +1 spdef I can't see it being with the other S ranks.

NidoKING

Raise To B+

Make it B- (maybe higher eventually)

Kabutops

Drop To C+

A drop seems reasonable.

horrible abomination named Mew

drop this piece of trash

This mon is hot garbage. After building like 4 teams for this thing after its Z-Move came out I can tell you that it does nothing special. While Supernova hits super hard and it's kind of okay vs slower teams it's still a bad pokemon and has no reason being on the same tier as something like Nidoking (if it rises) or Bronzong.

Jellicent

Unrank it

Never used it never seen a reason to use it and I see no reason to keep it on here.

Thund-T

Rise to C+

Thund-T needs to rise. The access to Double Dance gives it a niche as it's able to set up on common pokemon such as Celes and Fini, also Thundy shouldn't be that much higher than it since both pokemon are sub-optimal.

 

[exlipsebeast]

Tangrowth has become a lot more popular and does not give AV is one of the best pivots right not. Deserves the raise. Mew while genesis supernova made it better it is still crap.
I also want to nom zdog to 10% to B- I get that is has thousand arrows but it's stats are really mediocre and having a useless ability does not help it. 100 is not good enough to break through much right now, even with a CB. 115 speed still leaves it outsped by greninja and dugtrio and koko. Virtually and scarfed mon can revenge it. It also faces a ton of competition with zygarde and too a lesser extent garchomp. In B mons have defined niches such as katana and pelipper. I just think it would be better off with the likes of dragonite and Mgyra.

 

[BlueLobster]

Minior -> C or C- what does this do? I haven't seen this thing in a long, long time. I don't see it doing very much in a very steel-heavy meta. Just look at all the stuff in A/S ranks that need to be gone/weakened for it to sweep, let alone the fact that its ability can be played around, making it even harder to use.

As a user of Minior, I can actually talk about this. Minior is very gimmicky, very matchup based and usually not worth using. I absolutely love it's design and that the only reason I've used it really, and I haven't played an awful lot since the beginning of gen 7 so I've yet to move on. It's usually a dead weight, but can be of surprising use late game in sweeping things when you think you're completely screwed. It's main form of setup is on choice locked mons who's STABs are exploitable for it, such as scarf Chomp, as well as a lot of bulky things. I've got a few sweeps with it, but it's not really reliable. I would definately say C- is way to low, it's somewhere on the C+/C borderline. Also, it's rubbish without sub as it becomes exploitable AF.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533542280 - Takes advantage of a choice locked Kyu-B + a good predict.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-517310975 - Takes advantage of an Amoonguss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-517281508 - Not really relevant but lives a Zard-X dragon claw.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-513155895 - Destroys balance

 

[pwnémon]

I know this is against all the recent talk but I think Thundurus should rise to at least B+. It's nasty plot set is incredibly potent, dismantling many fire water grass, steels and balance cores with focus blast and hp ice/flying as coverage for lando/chomp or grasses. It's speed tier is still valuable and although its forced out by greninja, mosa, scarfers etc it consistley does work against balance and bulky offense. Its coverage is better at breaking fatter teams than tapu koko due to it beating grasses, landos and ferro in one slot.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

I know this is against all the recent talk but I think Thundurus should rise to at least B+. It's nasty plot set is incredibly potent, dismantling many fire water grass, steels and balance cores with focus blast and hp ice/flying as coverage for lando/chomp or grasses. It's speed tier is still valuable and although its forced out by greninja, mosa, scarfers etc it consistley does work against balance and bulky offense. Its coverage is better at breaking fatter teams than tapu koko due to it beating grasses, landos and ferro in one slot.

111 Speed with nonexistent bulk does not constitute "incredibly potent." It doesn't "dismantle" balance, and OU has plenty of balance breakers with great coverage and better Speed tiers. Hell, there's one in S rank right now. Plus it's revenge killed by literally every prominent offensive Pokemon in the tier. Thundurus can't 2HKO any Specially Defensive Pokemon without a Nasty Plot boost or super effective coverage, and its inability to run both Hidden Power Flying and Ice means it will be lacking in the latter department. More often than not, Thundurus sets up a Nasty Plot as the opponent switches in a faster Pokemon, and it's instantly forced to flee. Or it Focus Blasts Ferrothorn as it sets up hazards, then proceeds to miss the next Focus Blast and get Leech Seeded. Or it Thunderbolts an Alolan Marowak and doesn't have U-turn to prevent a possible double switch. Your opponent can even sacrifice a Pokemon and then bring in their Greninja or Pheromosa or Tapu Koko; now you basically lose a Pokemon in return. Thundurus is honestly the exact opposite of consistency in this metagame, lol. It might match up well against some balance, but not better than its A/B ranked counterparts, which also have more selling points overall. It doesn't offer anything other than offensive power: it's forced out by half the tier, it can't switch in on anything since even resisted or non-STAB neutral hits will deal stupid damage to it, and both Prankster and Thunder Wave got nerfed. It certainly doesn't compare to Tapu Koko as an offensive Electric type unless you have literally no teammates that can kill Grass-types and need an HP Flying Thundurus. In SM OU you need to be either strong enough to kill key targets without retaliation, fast enough to avoid getting hit at all, or bulky enough to take those hits. Thundurus doesn't have any of these qualities, and in fact I would argue Thundurus-T is better than it at the moment, though neither are great.

 

[Ema Skye]

Going to echo a few other people here and vouch for Celesteela to S.

This mon is incredible. The SpDef set is a fantastic blanket check to so much of OU (scarf Mosa, most Metagross, Landorus, Garchomp, most Lele, Bulu, Pinsir and Mence, just to name a few), and I've used it so many times to just pivot into things because I know it can take the hit. I find it a lot like the Defensive Lando set, though it lacks the Stealth Rock and Intimidate support. It makes up for it though with recovery options beyond Leftovers and much better bulk (89/90/80 vs 97/103/101). It and Skarmory are the only things that can handle a Metagross or Landorus, as everything else gets completely wiped. It's also responsible for the surge in Magnezone usage, which I think suggests just how important Celesteela is to the metagame if we're seeing an increase in mons just to take it out.

Then there's the Automonize set, which is up there with Landorus-T as being the most scary Z-sweeper in the game. Beast Boost allows Celesteela to snowball into a threat that has a handful of checks (Magnezone and Terrakion), as nothing switches into it, and it's basically game over once it hits +1 unless you have Chansey, as those would be checks are now cleanly outsped and OHKOed. Unlike Landorus-T, who's Z-sweeper sets are similar, Celesteela is absurdly difficult to revenge kill, as its sweeping is due to Beast Boost. Landorus has the Double Dance set, which does not guarantee that it outspeeds the entire unboosted meta. I definitely think Celesteela has the qualifications to get bumped up to S-tier.

Also supporting a Tangrowth rise. This mon walls so much of the meta that it's not even funny. Like Celesteela, there are so many situations where you can throw it out and know it'll live.

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

Terrakion is really bad in the metagame and isn't anywhere near B+ material. Between Pheromosa (not only checking it but outclassing it as well), Metagross-Mega's increased viability, Greninja & Ash, Toxapex, literally all 4 of the Tapus, offensive Landorus-Therian running everywhere and Celesteela, it's nowhere near as viable as it was in Gen 6. I think B-/C+ does it justice tbh.

 

[DragonAscent]

Terrakion is really bad in the metagame and isn't anywhere near B+ material. Between Pheromosa (not only checking it but outclassing it as well), Metagross-Mega's increased viability, Greninja & Ash, Toxapex, literally all 4 of the Tapus, offensive Landorus-Therian running everywhere and Celesteela, it's nowhere near as viable as it was in Gen 6. I think B-/C+ does it justice tbh.

I don't think you realize why terrak is ranked as high as it is.

+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Celesteela: 298-352 (152.8 - 180.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 270-318 (152.5 - 179.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 163-193 (103.8 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 250-295 (151.5 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 177-208 (90.3 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Rak's main set is SD + continental crush, and it's meant to break cores/fat stuff, not revenge phero and koko. It does have trouble with mega meta and koko if its taken enough damage, but that's why it's B+ rank and not A+ rank. I could see B at the lowest, but C+ is waaay underselling it.

 

[Gary]

Scarf Terrakion is it's best set right now, because it can revenge basically every relevant sweeper in the tier atm and provides great speed control in general which lets it revenge other stuff like Gren, non Scarf Phero, weakened Koko, etc. Even with Lando in the tier its STAB combo is still a pain in the ass to switch into, and SpD Celesteela takes quite a bit from both moves anyway, it can't really switch in reliably. SD Rockzium is solid but it's just really hard to justify over SD Lando-T. It's definitely B+ for Scarf though, it's a pretty solid mon.

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

Scarf Terrakion is it's best set right now, because it can revenge basically every relevant sweeper in the tier atm and provides great speed control in general which lets it revenge other stuff like Gren, non Scarf Phero, weakened Koko, etc. Even with Lando in the tier its STAB combo is still a pain in the ass to switch into, and SpD Celesteela takes quite a bit from both moves anyway, it can't really switch in reliably. SD Rockzium is solid but it's just really hard to justify over SD Lando-T. It's definitely B+ for Scarf though, it's a pretty solid mon.

Can't Pheromosa do most of these things though? Pheromosa also outspeeds and kills Greninja and Tapu Koko and it doesn't need a Scarf to do it. It also fares better against Celesteela.

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 190-225 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 278-329 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I mean I guess Terrakion has better bulk but it's not known for taking hits. Close Combat causes it to become frailer than Pheromosa anyway.

 

[bludz]

Generally, the most important setup mon to outspeed and revenge kill with a Choice Scarfer is Volcarona, which Pheromosa cannot revenge kill. Terrakion is capable of revenge killing Volcarona, as well as other threatening setup sweepers like Charizard X, Salamence, and Gyarados. Granted, +1 Gyarados is outsped by non-scarf Pheromosa, but once again Pheromosa isn't really capable of revenge killing Gyarados until its been weakened. If anything, Terrakion's niche as a scarfer competes more with Nihilego, who can revenge kill many of the same threats.

Also, the issue with the calc you showed is that Celesteela often carries Protect, which incurs a 50% HP penalty on Pheromosa if it uses High Jump Kick on that turn.

 

[Ash Borer]

I don't think you realize why terrak is ranked as high as it is.

+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Celesteela: 298-352 (152.8 - 180.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 270-318 (152.5 - 179.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 163-193 (103.8 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 250-295 (151.5 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 177-208 (90.3 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Rak's main set is SD + continental crush, and it's meant to break cores/fat stuff, not revenge phero and koko. It does have trouble with mega meta and koko if its taken enough damage, but that's why it's B+ rank and not A+ rank. I could see B at the lowest, but C+ is waaay underselling it.

no it isn't continental crush. It's not a very good set at all. Against stall you simply get revenge killed by dugtrio, and it does nothing special to balance/offense. Sure it one shots everything, but so does SD Bulu, Landorus-T, and Garchomp, but all of those mons have way better defensive utility. Landorus-T particularly outclasses it because it runs a WAY better double dance. I don't think Terrakion belongs in C+ at all, but telling us that it can 1 shot everything is worthless. There are countless Pokemon in the tier that can run uber-powerful choice sets, or boost + Z crystal sets.

 

[Mood4food77]

Can't Pheromosa do most of these things though? Pheromosa also outspeeds and kills Greninja and Tapu Koko and it doesn't need a Scarf to do it. It also fares better against Celesteela.

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 190-225 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 278-329 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I mean I guess Terrakion has better bulk but it's not known for taking hits. Close Combat causes it to become frailer than Pheromosa anyway.

Pheromosa wants almost no business with a +1 volcarona/zard x/gyarados/salamence. Scarf terrak easily revenge kills these

 

[TURBODERP]

Pheromosa wants almost no business with a +1 volcarona/zard x/gyarados/salamence. Scarf terrak easily revenge kills these

True, but then again, Scarf Nihilego can do all of that, so that's Scarf Terrak's direct competition (and hence why it's a rank below Nihilego?) in some ways.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Out of curiousity, what are people's thoughts on Nihilego vs Terrak (scarf sets)? Terrak is better for hitting things like Bronzong, which is rising in popularity, and Fini/Celesteela with sedge, but then again Nihilego avoids Lando's intimidate, has beast boost, etc.. Haven't used either so I was wondering about the difference in rank

Terrakion is a beast but Nihilego is simply the king.

Also I don't understand how Terrakion handles Tapu Fini better when Nihilego murders it, and Scarf Terrakion doesn't 2HKO Celesteela with Close Combat either.
Terrakion technically has better neutral coverage, but it also can't OHKO a whole lot; in return, most attacks will kill it, at least with SR and/or random chip damage. In comparison, Nihilego's moves hit many OU staples, such as all four Tapus, super effectively, and it has the special bulk to tank regular Greninja's Specs 5-hit Water Shuriken after Stealth Rock...although any physical attack is fatal.
I would argue that Terrakion is theoretically more self-sufficient, but Nihilego's checks are so much more specific (Steels, Grounds not 4x weak to HP Ice) that I would consider it easier to support. In addition, Nihilego can serve as a special switch-in, Fairy check, etc. while Terrakion rarely, if ever, contributes defensive utility. Terrakion has its fair share of advantages, such as possessing one of the best STAB combos in the game and a higher Speed stat (for, like...Mega Sharpedo), but I think as of now Nihilego offers more.

EDIT: Also whenever I use Scarf Terrakion Stone Edge has 50% accuracy, so maybe I'm a little biased.

 

[Eraxxer]

It might end up being pointless but I think Duggy should go to A+. It's a metagame defining pokemon and we've seen how insanely capable of changing the game it is, it's the reason it's being suspected. Just the presence of Duggy on your team instantly makes some metagame defining threats much less viable - Magearna, Koko, Metagross, Zard X, Heatran, Lele and many others which in many cases can just win you the game are now hindered heavily, many times without Duggy even needing to be send out. E.g. Magearna will never volt switch, scarf koko can't be used, Lele really can't be sent out against stall, every single tran switch is a 50/50, Zard X doesn't mega etc. etc. all without duggy being sent out. Meanwhile when it is present it is capable of so many things, of course killing ground weaks but also able to run moves for things like Pheromosa, Toxic for Lando, and a really good one in this set up heavy meta is the ability to trap into memento for lando, gyara, mence, qd phero and many others.

It's still got many issues but the meta is changing to be more and more favorable towards it. Its biggest liability is that it lets lando set up on it, but even then it almost always will have either toxic or memento so it can negate that issue if switching isn't an option.

 

[Nuked]

It might end up being pointless but I think Duggy should go to A+. It's a metagame defining pokemon and we've seen how insanely capable of changing the game it is, it's the reason it's being suspected. Just the presence of Duggy on your team instantly makes some metagame defining threats much less viable - Magearna, Koko, Metagross, Zard X, Heatran, Lele and many others which in many cases can just win you the game are now hindered heavily, many times without Duggy even needing to be send out. E.g. Magearna will never volt switch, scarf koko can't be used, Lele really can't be sent out against stall, every single tran switch is a 50/50, Zard X doesn't mega etc. etc. all without duggy being sent out. Meanwhile when it is present it is capable of so many things, of course killing ground weaks but also able to run moves for things like Pheromosa, Toxic for Lando, and a really good one in this set up heavy meta is the ability to trap into memento for lando, gyara, mence, qd phero and many others.

It's still got many issues but the meta is changing to be more and more favorable towards it. Its biggest liability is that it lets lando set up on it, but even then it almost always will have either toxic or memento so it can negate that issue if switching isn't an option.

I disagree for a couple of reasons. It only does 1 thing - trapping threats. All of the A+ Pokemon have several very viable sets but Dugtrio only really has 1 - focus sash trapper. It has so many flaws; its bulk is downright terrible, its speed isn't that fast anymore, and base 100 Attack is good but not great. On offense, it offers no defensive utility because of its lack of resistances which is pretty important on Offense since you need defensive synergy. It has to face huge competition with other scarfers like Terrakion, Nihilego, and Garchomp, all of which have two typings and actual bulk. You mentioned Pheromosa and Koko but both can just U-turn out and break the sash. (unless it's scarfed; again, Garchomp gives it really tough competition)

While its Attack stat is good it falls short of a lot of important KOs - for example, you mentioned Zard X and Metagross: Adamant doesn't even always OHKO Zard and it never OHKOes Metagross. If I was gonna make a post about Dugtrio I would have talked about its role on stall but you made the post sound like you would use it on offense.

 

[Eraxxer]

I disagree for a couple of reasons. It only does 1 thing - trapping threats. All of the A+ Pokemon have several very viable sets but Dugtrio only really has 1 - focus sash trapper. It has so many flaws; its bulk is downright terrible, its speed isn't that fast anymore, and base 100 Attack is good but not great. On offense, it offers no defensive utility because of its lack of resistances which is pretty important on Offense since you need defensive synergy. It has to face huge competition with other scarfers like Terrakion, Nihilego, and Garchomp, all of which have two typings and actual bulk. You mentioned Pheromosa and Koko but both can just U-turn out and break the sash. (unless it's scarfed; again, Garchomp gives it really tough competition)

While its Attack stat is good it falls short of a lot of important KOs - for example, you mentioned Zard X and Metagross: Adamant doesn't even always OHKO Zard and it never OHKOes Metagross. If I was gonna make a post about Dugtrio I would have talked about its role on stall but you made the post sound like you would use it on offense.

The fact is that Duggy's one set defines the metagame. Having multiple sets isn't an argument since Mega Metagross is S rank with only one good set. Duggy doesn't need to OHKO Metagross straight away when a few rounds of rocks and maybe a helmet hit is putting it in range (and Zard needs one Rocks switch or to click blitz once). It goes back to my original point that Duggy's mere presence will remove something's viability in a specific match.

I was talking about Duggy in general, it excels especially in stall but can be used anywhere. It's a discount Gothitelle with the massive advantage that it's immune to volt switch so electrics and magearna can basically never risk it. Everyone knows about the stall matchup so i didn't feel the need to elaborate, I just wanted to point out just how dominating it is and how favorable the current meta is to it.

(It's not beating uturn phero, it's more about beating qd, fight z, specs and so on. Koko is similar, there are some roost 3 attack sets without uturn and there are scarf sets as well. In fact, this helps my point as to just how ridiculous duggy is in the current meta - just look how much more variety in phero and koko sets there is in the suspect ladder. It shows how duggy's presence in the meta forces so much out of people in team building to the point where it shapes the meta much more, i feel, than anything else in A rank. It fits better amongst similarly metagame changing threats like Ash Gren, Celesteela and Phero.)

 

[Nuked]

The fact is that Duggy's one set defines the metagame. Having multiple sets isn't an argument since Mega Metagross is S rank with only one good set. Duggy doesn't need to OHKO Metagross straight away when a few rounds of rocks and maybe a helmet hit is putting it in range (and Zard needs one Rocks switch or to click blitz once). It goes back to my original point that Duggy's mere presence will remove something's viability in a specific match.

I was talking about Duggy in general, it excels especially in stall but can be used anywhere. It's a discount Gothitelle with the massive advantage that it's immune to volt switch so electrics and magearna can basically never risk it. Everyone knows about the stall matchup so i didn't feel the need to elaborate, I just wanted to point out just how dominating it is and how favorable the current meta is to it.

(It's not beating uturn phero, it's more about beating qd, fight z, specs and so on. Koko is similar, there are some roost 3 attack sets without uturn and there are scarf sets as well. In fact, this helps my point as to just how ridiculous duggy is in the current meta - just look how much more variety in phero and koko sets there is in the suspect ladder. It shows how duggy's presence in the meta forces so much out of people in team building to the point where it shapes the meta much more, i feel, than anything else in A rank. It fits better amongst similarly metagame changing threats like Ash Gren, Celesteela and Phero.)

I really think you're overestimating dugtrio. Dugtrio is nowhere near defining the metagame lol. In order to KO something it has to lose its sash and there are stallbreakers i.e Tapu Bulu and Zygarde that can beat it too which means that it isn't that consistent on stall.