Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus

Unranked -> C or C-

Unless you've been living under a rock the last couple of months Espeon is known as the ultimate choice for Baton Pass teams thanks to Magic Bounce. Deflecting phazing moves as well as preventing Taunt is huge for Baton Pass teams to remain uninterrupted. Calm Mind / Stored Power / Dazzling Gleam / Morning Sun @ Kee Berry is the set of choice. Best of all Dazzling Gleam helps support Necrozma later on by eliminating Dark-types while still denting Steel-types after some boosts with Stored Power.

I confess I don't have any replays saved and I'm sure I can find some, but I think with Baton Pass still existing in OU it only makes sense to add the #1 blocker of normal ways to debunk Baton Pass.
 
Last edited:

Unranked -> C or C-

Unless you've been living under a rock the last couple of months Espeon is the ultimate choice for Baton Pass teams due to Magic Bounce. Deflecting phazing moves as well as preventing Taunt is huge for Baton Pass teams to remain uninterrupted. Calm Mind / Stored Power / Dazzling Gleam / Morning Sun @ Kee Berry is the set of choice. Best of all Dazzling Gleam helps support Necrozma later on by eliminating Dark-types while still denting Steel-types after some boosts with Stored Power.

I confess I don't have any replays saved and I'm sure I can find some, but I think with Baton Pass still existing in OU it only makes sense to add the #1 blocker of normal ways to debunk Baton Pass.
Here you go:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-513947897

Not really a highladder game, but having Espeon in the back discouraged my opponent from clicking Whirlwind and allowed me to sweep with Espeon himself. I was experimenting with Weakness Policy in the replay but Kee Berry works, too.
 
How do people feel about Serperior? It's got some cool stuff going for it.

For one, it serves as one of the best answers to webs teams in the tier, because an instant +1 speed is incredible.

It also fares well against stall - It beats Chansey 1v1 (though it doesn't like using so many leaf storms against it and assuming it has sub to deal with twave), it runs through one of the two unaware users (rip quagsire), and the only common grass resist on stall - Skarmory - does not like taking a boosted HP Fire. Use Sub for 4th move to protect against status and help scout moves.

Besides that, it's great as a late game sweeper or just for setting up in general on mons like Fini, Tang, and Toxapex.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I've really loved using it lately, I've been running 330 speed because I don't really want it to be a megA meta counter(sucks at it) and that let's me out speed scarf 100+ speed of jolly fire moth after one quiver dance and the rest goes it bulk and I abuse taunt, glare, leech seed and leaf storm.

I think the threat of it sweeping is way to great to irgone and it does an amazing job preventing hazards and switching into a boosted thousand arrows and taunt/seeding Zygarde to death, it's honestly down right ruthless glaring/preventing rocks/spikes and building free turns for Your team later

But idk if it deverses a rise just yet, pairs perfectly with Zygarde tho
 
How do people feel about Serperior? It's got some cool stuff going for it.

For one, it serves as one of the best answers to webs teams in the tier, because an instant +1 speed is incredible.

It also fares well against stall - It beats Chansey 1v1 (though it doesn't like using so many leaf storms against it and assuming it has sub to deal with twave), it runs through one of the two unaware users (rip quagsire), and the only common grass resist on stall - Skarmory - does not like taking a boosted HP Fire. Use Sub for 4th move to protect against status and help scout moves.

Besides that, it's great as a late game sweeper or just for setting up in general on mons like Fini, Tang, and Toxapex.
Some problems:
• 8 PP for STAB attack (bad if you're forced out a lot)
• You're forced out a lot because Volcarona + Greninja(non-Ash) are more overpowered than the SC2 Terran race. They're also all over the place.
• Less overpowered options (such as Heatran, Celesteela, Amoonguss, and Gengar) are hanging around. Heatran and Celesteela see heavy usage (http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-02/gen7ou-1825.txt for latest usage stats)
• Chansey, Skarmory, Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Quagsire, Tangrowth are all superb targets (+ maybe Lando-T, Greninja-Ash and Zygarde), but that's really about it – fewer Suicune, 0 Diancie (one of the biggest prey for the Grass snake), Manaphy, are all on the decline.
• Most of the targets are on slow fat teams – versus other teams, there are more options that will likely outspeed and kill Serperior (due to generational speed creep)

In conclusion:
• More roadblocks
• Relatively few targets

Meta trends aren't hugely in favor, but aren't hugely in disfavor either.
 
Serperior B+->A-
This pokemon is amazing and very antimeta. The subseed set can win 1v1 things like heatran, celesteela, zapdos and also it is really good against stall. It can force out a lot of things and then proced to sub or seeed and defeat its counters. The scarf set is also very nice against ofense and it can paralyze the set up sweepers.

Pinsir A-->A
This thing is fucking busted, why is it so low? It has proved to be unstopable in webs teams, and it is also good outside of them. +2 return hits incredibly hard, 2HKOing resists like celsesteela. It is also has huge phisical bulk, and this allows it to set up on every phisical atacker that lacks a super efective move. Aerialite quick atack is also realy nice, OHKOing a lot of ofensive pokes at +2. You can also run feint for ash gren.
 
Meta trends aren't hugely in favor, but aren't hugely in disfavor either.
Serperior B+->A-
This pokemon is amazing and very antimeta.
I agree with Mon of Steel, and disagree with Raikou237. Nothing has changed in the meta to make serperior rise-worthy. Webs teams are more common, and serp can grab +1 off that, but then what? It's not like serp was gonna need that extra speed anyway. Pinsir still beats it.
And the meta is still very steel-heavy, greninja gives serp a veryy hard time doing anything, heatran walls it to hell and back. Serperior is just too situational to be an A tier threat IMO, and Celesteela performs the leech-seed-cancer role far more reliably, while also providing all the other utility that comes w that mon. Tangrowth is super common and serp can do literally nothing to it.

Speaking of pinsir, it has a couple major flaws that hold it back from rising further, notably that it takes 50% from rocks once mega'd, and landot is still on every team, and there are a number of top-tier steels (skarm, celesteela, mage) that can stop even a +2 MPinsir from sweeping.
 
I agree with Mon of Steel, and disagree with Raikou237. Nothing has changed in the meta to make serperior rise-worthy. Webs teams are more common, and serp can grab +1 off that, but then what? It's not like serp was gonna need that extra speed anyway. Pinsir still beats it.
And the meta is still very steel-heavy, greninja gives serp a veryy hard time doing anything, heatran walls it to hell and back. Serperior is just too situational to be an A tier threat IMO, and Celesteela performs the leech-seed-cancer role far more reliably, while also providing all the other utility that comes w that mon. Tangrowth is super common and serp can do literally nothing to it.

Speaking of pinsir, it has a couple major flaws that hold it back from rising further, notably that it takes 50% from rocks once mega'd, and landot is still on every team, and there are a number of top-tier steels (skarm, celesteela, mage) that can stop even a +2 MPinsir from sweeping.
Defensive lando-t is very shitty answer to pinsir, because if he switchs in in mega evolution turn pinsir will get the +2 and KO lando, also you can wait to mega evolve just because of this and now most lando run hp ice over stone edge and you can set-up on it before mega evolving, skarmory is only seen in stall(and is the only answer to it in this play style, bar pyukumunku, and even then skarm need to be full life, otherwise +2 CC can be dangerous) both celesteela and magearna get 2KOed at +2, mega pinsir really apreciates tangrowth,toxapex, mega scizor,mega medicham, tapu lele And CB zygarde popularity, and while is true that every mon apreciates spikes to wear down defensive answers pinsir can use it as a form of beating offensive answers tnks tô prioty(like in my replay below) the best fast mons include greninja, keldeo, gengar, tapu koko, metagross nas serperior, and only two of them resist quick attack, pinsir can revange kill +1 volc too, mega pinsir have weakness of course SR, Metagross and zapdos are pain in the ass, the two fast rock types can check it, but Will never switch on it, tnks to his near perfect wallbreaking potential pinsir definetly sould rise, it also apreciates BP abs SW popularity, since quick attack blows scolipede and he is immune to webs, while being deadly on SW teams.
Edit: i am idiot and forgot about the replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560041047
 
Not to put sorry or Sedertz on blast, but I really do not think that team is as good as you're leading people to believe, or people are concluding it to be. Personally, I'd rather not see either of them ranked, considering even though the team they're both most notable on got a couple of people voting requirements for the Dugtrio suspect, it is far from consistent, with a plethora of defensive holes that even for Trick Room HO cannot be overlooked (offensive Heatran, opposing Marowak, and Ash Greninja, for example). It really is not a difficult team to play around and then abuse the massive weaknesses against offensive breakers and/or anti-offense Pokemon once the Trick Room turns run out, for standard bulky-offence builds.

But nonetheless, I'll speak on the matter:

Completely disagree with the notion that Cresselia should remain unranked, especially over Uxie. Not only does sorry and Sedertz's team use Cresselia, it is also the fattest member of Trick Room teams, meaning it sets Trick Room with far more consistency, and offers "standard TR" (not a fan of the team, if I'm honest), a means with which to somewhat capably handle SD Rockium-Z Landorus, which otherwise wipes the floor with that team. Furthermore, Lunar Dance is far from something to overlook; it's is the difference between winning and losing in so many matchups. Basically, thanks to being a far more consistent setter on Trick Room, offering far more defensive utility, and the insane utility that Lunar Dance provides, overall I think Cresselia is superior.
I'd just like to point out that you can't really make direct comparisons between Cress and Uxie, as they perform different roles. I'd personally like to see them both ranked, as both serve very important roles. That said, Cress's job of bulky TR setter can also be done by Porygon 2, whereas Uxie's job as a TR lead is pretty unique. Sure, Cress could do it, but it's worse as a lead due to the fact that it doesn't get rocks and memento is better early game than lunar dance. Uxie could also do Cress's job, but Cress is indeed superior in that role, as you pointed out.

I'm not saying they should be ranked high, as they're both pretty specific to one archetype, but come on they're heaps better than stuff like Torkoal.


Actually, now that I think about it, why is Torkoal ranked? Sun teams are pretty bad, and is it even good as a sun setter?
 
I'd just like to point out that you can't really make direct comparisons between Cress and Uxie, as they perform different roles. I'd personally like to see them both ranked, as both serve very important roles. That said, Cress's job of bulky TR setter can also be done by Porygon 2, whereas Uxie's job as a TR lead is pretty unique. Sure, Cress could do it, but it's worse as a lead due to the fact that it doesn't get rocks and memento is better early game than lunar dance. Uxie could also do Cress's job, but Cress is indeed superior in that role, as you pointed out.

I'm not saying they should be ranked high, as they're both pretty specific to one archetype, but come on they're heaps better than stuff like Torkoal.


Actually, now that I think about it, why is Torkoal ranked? Sun teams are pretty bad, and is it even good as a sun setter?


I believe an admin said the reason Torkoal is ranked is because it can do a shit ton in one slot. It sets the sun, has rapid spin and stealth rocks and can pass burns boosted by the sun. I mean it may be pretty shitty at doing those things but it's pretty versatile at support and if you want a sun setter on your team for whatever reason it can do that and a lot more.
 
Rise suicune.

With drastic rise in trick room team Suicune (specificly vincune) shines because this kind of team has massive problem with breaking it's sub. They have to sack a mon or risk scald burn to do so.

This replay shows that even teams with good matchup against sucicune (koko, fini, serperior and medicham, basically definition of cookie cutter team) can struggle against this mon:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-570994731
 
Last edited:
I'm am new to this thread and I don't play a lot of pokemon but based on my experience with using Chansey for some time now, I would like to support Colonel Memes idea to raise chansey to A- tier.

Chansey has an incredible movepool(as we all know). It can easily throw out a toxic or a thunder wave to the enemy team, crippling them. Chansey does well in most 1v1 situations because of toxic and the ever so reliable seismic toss(with the exception of ghost types, like mega gengar). Chansey reliably dishes out damage while crippling the enemy team with toxic and thunder wave. Chansey has the ability to stall and wall pokemon because of it's bulkiness, eviolite, and obviously, its insanely high HP.

While Chansey may lack a leftovers recovery from hazards like stealth rock and spikes, Chansey can learn soft-boiled and heal itself right back. If I am not mistaken, I once encountered a Mega Gengar and It can barely do any damage Chansey, and since my Tapu Fini inflicted a burn to Mega Gengar, he basically died because of Chansey walling and stalling gengar with the magic of softboiled(Chansey didn't do thunder wave because Chansey didn't need to).

Chansey's Physical and Special Bulk is already well known to most of us. It can take around 3-4 earthquake before dying, Tank around 2 focus blasts(or more), and draco meteor does absolutely NOTHING to Chansey. It can also take a couple of psychics from tapu lele, special attacks from the tapus(except bulu), doesn't suffer so much from automize celesteela, takes hits from greninja, and many other mons in OU.

Chansey's Ability Natural Cure allows chansey to not worry so much about being poisoned because it can easily switch out and the status effect does nothing. Burns don't affect chansey because she does 100 damage every single time and it is super reliable.

Occasionally when I am playing, chansey even killed the sweeper who attempted to sweep just with hazards and a couple of seismic tosses.
For example, how well does it fare against Alolan Dugtrio?(I brought up Alolan Dugtrio because since it has arena trap, it traps chansey and stops you from switching out)

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

WHAT?

Chansey can tank up to 3 earthquakes from dugtrio, and here is the ironic thing,

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Dugtrio: 100-100 (49.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And that is not including hazards like spikes and toxic!

But however, what happens when Chaney loses her eviolite?
It's not the end of the world.
First, Her physical and special bulk is still passable without eviolite(Mostly compensated for high HP). Also, It doesn't stop chansey from delivering a fancy seismic toss and crippling the enemy team with hazards.


Compared with other mons in B+ tier, I think Chansey should move up, because it does its job so well, to wall special attacks and to inflict hazards on the enemy team. I remember someone said way back in this forum that toxepex deserves to be in the A- Tier because it does its job so well.

Personal Nomination: Jirachi move to A- tier!
The need of steel types and psychic types has come again with the arrival of M-Medicham.
Base of 100 for every stat may not be so good, but I have a solution!
Z-Happy Jirachi!
This set in my opinion is the best set for Jirachi. Jirachi's well known 60% flinch rate from Iron Head because of Serene Grace now hits even harder!
Z Happy Hour Jirachi is almost impossible to kill! If you add full speed EVS for Jirachi, it becomes 299. Not very impressive. But with Z happy hour, it is times to 1.5%! so it is now 449 speed, out speeding many pokemon and becomes a revenge killer! It doesn't out speed choice scarf users above 100 but this is not with timid nature, it is adamant nature. When it is timid, 492 speed!

Attack is so high, that it can 1HKO many things. Zen Headbutt also has a 40% flinch rate and jirachi can actually become a sweeper!

Even though Jirachi has 1 very good set, It does wonders in OU in my experience. Most of my battles that could be lost are one because of Z-Happy Hour Jirachi! It deserves a mention, as I haven't been seeing any mentions of that yet.

I can't provide a formal nomination because I have no replays but I can say that I tried to judge as fairly as possible and speak from open experience. If there is something that you disagree, please comment.
 
I'm am new to this thread and I don't play a lot of pokemon but based on my experience with using Chansey for some time now, I would like to support Colonel Memes idea to raise chansey to A- tier.

Chansey has an incredible movepool(as we all know). It can easily throw out a toxic or a thunder wave to the enemy team, crippling them. Chansey does well in most 1v1 situations because of toxic and the ever so reliable seismic toss(with the exception of ghost types, like mega gengar). Chansey reliably dishes out damage while crippling the enemy team with toxic and thunder wave. Chansey has the ability to stall and wall pokemon because of it's bulkiness, eviolite, and obviously, its insanely high HP.

While Chansey may lack a leftovers recovery from hazards like stealth rock and spikes, Chansey can learn soft-boiled and heal itself right back. If I am not mistaken, I once encountered a Mega Gengar and It can barely do any damage Chansey, and since my Tapu Fini inflicted a burn to Mega Gengar, he basically died because of Chansey walling and stalling gengar with the magic of softboiled(Chansey didn't do thunder wave because Chansey didn't need to).

Chansey's Physical and Special Bulk is already well known to most of us. It can take around 3-4 earthquake before dying, Tank around 2 focus blasts(or more), and draco meteor does absolutely NOTHING to Chansey. It can also take a couple of psychics from tapu lele, special attacks from the tapus(except bulu), doesn't suffer so much from automize celesteela, takes hits from greninja, and many other mons in OU.

Chansey's Ability Natural Cure allows chansey to not worry so much about being poisoned because it can easily switch out and the status effect does nothing. Burns don't affect chansey because she does 100 damage every single time and it is super reliable.

Occasionally when I am playing, chansey even killed the sweeper who attempted to sweep just with hazards and a couple of seismic tosses.
For example, how well does it fare against Alolan Dugtrio?(I brought up Alolan Dugtrio because since it has arena trap, it traps chansey and stops you from switching out)

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

WHAT?

Chansey can tank up to 3 earthquakes from dugtrio, and here is the ironic thing,

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Dugtrio: 100-100 (49.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And that is not including hazards like spikes and toxic!

But however, what happens when Chaney loses her eviolite?
It's not the end of the world.
First, Her physical and special bulk is still passable without eviolite(Mostly compensated for high HP). Also, It doesn't stop chansey from delivering a fancy seismic toss and crippling the enemy team with hazards.


Compared with other mons in B+ tier, I think Chansey should move up, because it does its job so well, to wall special attacks and to inflict hazards on the enemy team. I remember someone said way back in this forum that toxepex deserves to be in the A- Tier because it does its job so well.

Personal Nomination: Jirachi move to A- tier!
The need of steel types and psychic types has come again with the arrival of M-Medicham.
Base of 100 for every stat may not be so good, but I have a solution!
Z-Happy Jirachi!
This set in my opinion is the best set for Jirachi. Jirachi's well known 60% flinch rate from Iron Head because of Serene Grace now hits even harder!
Z Happy Hour Jirachi is almost impossible to kill! If you add full speed EVS for Jirachi, it becomes 299. Not very impressive. But with Z happy hour, it is times to 1.5%! so it is now 449 speed, out speeding many pokemon and becomes a revenge killer! It doesn't out speed choice scarf users above 100 but this is not with timid nature, it is adamant nature. When it is timid, 492 speed!

Attack is so high, that it can 1HKO many things. Zen Headbutt also has a 40% flinch rate and jirachi can actually become a sweeper!

Even though Jirachi has 1 very good set, It does wonders in OU in my experience. Most of my battles that could be lost are one because of Z-Happy Hour Jirachi! It deserves a mention, as I haven't been seeing any mentions of that yet.

I can't provide a formal nomination because I have no replays but I can say that I tried to judge as fairly as possible and speak from open experience. If there is something that you disagree, please comment.
Ok Alola Dugtrio isn't the one with Arena Trap, that's regular Dugtrio. Secondly, Dugtrio has Screech and Reversal, which lets it do a lot more damage than a plain, vanilla Earthquake. Anyhow, Chansey doesn't enjoy facing the many physical attackers of the tier, especially with Mega Mawile and Mega Medi running around.
Jirachi's Happy Hour set is actually one of the less consistent ones in my opinion. It can't OHKO much even with a boost and hates Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin mons like Garchomp, Lando-T, etc. You don't have any calcs to prove it can KO a lot of stuff anyway. Plus, while its movepool is wide, it can't hit everything at once. Without HP Ground, Heatran walls it. Without Energy Ball, bulky Waters can have a field day. And so on and so forth.
Still, I can get behind a Jirachi rise because I adore having it as a non-Ground type Stealth Rock setter. Healing Wish is bae :D
 
BlisseyandChansey123

Mega Gengar is banned, A-Dugtrio is irrelevant, and Dug beats Chansey 1v1. Chansey's status as the best special wall this side of Ubers is well known and unless it's been undervalued or has gotten better in relation to the meta, its walling abilities shouldn't be taken as reason for a rise. Z-Happy Hour is limited by Jirachi's low base attack and the fact that if forced out it becomes useless. Like Mathlete said, you have no calcs to back up your claim of "it can OHKO many things".
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A- ---> A
B+ ---> A-
B+ ---> A-
B ---> B+
B- ---> B
C- ---> C
Unranked ---> C-
Unranked ---> C-


Drops
A+ ---> A
B+ ---> B


  • Zapdos rose because of the massive amount of influence its had on the meta within the past few weeks, and how it continues to prove itself as a notable threat. The defensive/offensive Roost sets are very annoying to deal with thanks to its great Speed tier, coverage, and typing, which makes it very difficult to take on reliably without a dedicated special wall or bulky Ground-type like Gastrodon, Quag, and Hippo. The Timid variants have the added advantage of outspeeding Jolly Landorus, allowing Zapdos to check it with HP Ice, as well as other threats such as Zygarde and Jolly Gyarados.
  • We felt like Mega Zam was a lot better overall than most of the Pokemon in B+, and considering that it still sees a good amount of high level play with good success, it makes little sense to keep it the same rank as Zard X, which has seen the opposite.
  • Chansey is the fat blob that holds stall together and is part of the reason why it's so successful in the first place. On top of that, it can even find its way on some balance builds because of its ability to blanket check practically every notable special attacker in the tier, set up rocks, and spread paralysis. It's definitely not as easy to fit onto teams as something like Toxapex, but it can work well when given the proper defensive backbone even on non stall oriented teams.
  • Mew has also been seeing a lot more usage recently because of its ability to check notable threats in OU atm, namely Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, and Mega Medicham. It also has great utility as a Rocker or a Defogger, and it fits very well on a lot of balance builds because of this.
  • Suicune has been due for a rise for a long time, I wouldn't be surprised if it rose again in the near future. VinCune is still a very annoying set to deal with, and has the ability to set up on so many Pokemon because of its insane bulk and pure Water-typing.
  • Espeon and Cresselia were ranked for their niches on Baton Pass and Trick Room teams, respectively.
  • Mega Garchomp is niche but better than most of the very niche Pokemon found in C-. Its competition for a mega slot is still an issue, but its wallbreaking abilities are still very effective, and T-tar has been seeing a surge of popularity recently.
  • Mega Medicham has been seeing a ton of ladder usage for obvious reasons, but in the tour environment, it has seen very little since its release. The meta has already drastically shifted against it, with the influx of Mew usage as well as stall running other options to deal with Koko + Medi, such as phys def Sableye and Groundium Dugtrio. Ghost-types are also a lot more prevalent than they were in ORAS, with Gengar seeing a ton of usage, Mimikyu still finding usage on many hyper offensive oriented builds, and NP Cofagrigus finding home on bulkier balance builds. It's still being passed over for more consistent breakers, mainly Mega Mawile, which is way more pressuring vs stall and doesn't have to be wary of spamming its STAB move nearly as much, as well as Mega Metagross which is, well Mega Metagross. We felt it didn't fit alongside the other top tier threats found in A+ atm.
  • Manaphy finds very little use outside of BP and Sticky Web teams, so there's no reason to keep it as high as B+ considering most of those Pokemon see way more use in general.
As always, if you have a question on ranking placement, feel free to PM myself or any of the VR council members. This will probably be the last update until after the Mega Metagross suspect, just FYI.
 
Last edited:

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
We're being waaay too strict with the A+ ranking. There's only 5 mons in A+, compared to myriad of mons in A and A- it just looks wrong. I don't think Medicham should have dropped, and I think mons like Tangrwoth, Koko, Tox, and Volc could have been looked at to rise, if anything.

Anyway, to make this post have some actual meat to it instead of just me complaining about ranking philosophies: I think Zygarde should be S rank. Zygarde has two really strong sets, Choice Band and Sub Coil and both of them are extremely threatening and beat things the other might lose to. Sub Coil with Toxic will fuck over Tangrowth switch-ins, while Banded ruins things like Tapu Fini. It also provides amazing utility both defensively an doffensively, wearing down mons like Lando-T and Tangrowth for other Pokemon to take advantage of and checking Volcarona (without HP Ice) through its typing and natural bulk and/or Banded Extreme Speed. Having Zygarde on your team makes having a Scarf Rock-move mon less necessary, and that's always a nice thing because fuck Volcarona. I know this has been posted before, but I would like to throw my support behind it, and I would like to hear from ranking council members why it hasn't risen/if it's being considered.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I agree with Zygarde to S for reasons you stated and I have brought it up once or twice. njnp also advocates Celesteela to S fwiw and I think that mon is also on the borderline but I don't find it quite as splashable. Volcarona I could see in A+ but I strongly disagree with the other mons you mentioned. Pex, Growth, and Koko all have some pretty fatal flaws that in my opinion preclude them from rising.

Koko was brought up before and this is the one I disagree with the most. It really is great how fast it is and its very threatening vs offense. However it struggles mightily with bulkier teams unless you run the stallbreaker set which is walled by Grounds which limits its matchup against offense. Also, Koko is used to pivot so frequently that it is not difficult to wear it down with hazards, moreso than other pivots like Lando and Rotom. Plus, this mon is straight up weak outside of its STAB

Also I think Medicham could have dropped 2 ranks lol that mon is so overrated. I have legit run teams that were not HO and did not have switchins and still did not find this mon to be a major issue. Its so strapped for coverage in this meta and I would argue dropping Zen might be the worst thing you can do. Furthermore its metagame impact has not been small (cuz on paper its certainly fearsome), causing an increase in Mew and all Landos and Leles running +Spe nature which forces Medi to run Jolly or be dead in those matchups. And Jolly Medi is not the same man. Also all the ghost types etc and even fat Zor and Phys Def Tang can take it on in 1v1 scenarios sometimes
 
I agree with the talk about Medicham. Gengar OHKOs it with Shadow Ball, it doesn't even need life orb or specs. Mimikyu does the same with +2 Shadow Sneak. Cofagrigus just fucks it over completely with Mummy, and we all know that Sableye walls it if electric terrain isn't available.

I disagree with a Volcarona rise.

Currently, hazard control is abysmal, and 100+ scarfers are really common. It seems like Keldeo or Garchomp is on every other team right now.

It really seems to me that Volcarona is a mon that you have to build a team around, and that doesn't scream A+ to me, since those mons are all splashable as fuck on any team.
 
As this is my first post in the VR, let me start with something that shouldn't get too much hate.

Talonflame
C- ---> UR


Talonflame has literally one turn of priority Brave Bird. Even then, the more offensive set needed to use Swords Dance last gen. As that obviously takes a turn, the foe can attack. That gets rid of the niche it has with the priority Z-Move. Using it turn one also isn't very smart, as a base 81 attack isn't anything to write home about. Even if you do manage to set up than use the Z-move at full HP, the foe can send in Tapu Lele to shut down your Z-move. It also suffers a quad weakness to SR and is also generally frail. Finally, its role is generally taken by more viable 'mons such as Mimikyu for using SD and Salamance and Gyrados for using Flynium-Z. That doesn't even mention all of the other Z-move users like Heatran, which also has a better defensive typing and more roles to fill in OU than Talonflame. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Talonflame is niche but it doesn't need to be unranked. Flying resists are something that a lot of teams rely on Landorus-T for, which is extremely easy to wear down. Talonflame isn't meant to sweep nor really revenge kill like it did last gen, it's meant to function as an early game breaker that shreds through teams lacking Rotom-W, which isn't nearly as common as it was last gen. Its Speed tier is also really solid so insuring its priority Brave Bird isn't a 100% necessity in order for it to be successful, but chances are if you play carefully enough you can get off two priority BB per game, considering that SSSS doesn't cause recoil and it will still be at full health after being used. +2 Blitz also does a fuck ton to Zapdos, so it needs to be healthy in order to reliably deal with it too. Koko can't even reliably check it at +2 if it's at full health because Skystrike OHKOs after SR lol. Lele has no business switching into Talon and if someone actually does that they are taking a huge unnecessary risk.

Talon is by no means an amazing Pokemon, but it's a terrifying early game hole puncher that has the capabilities of being super clutch when used properly. Pairing it with Pokemon that appreciate Lando-T, Zapdos, and Tapu Koko weakened is the best way to go about using it. It seems unfair to unrank it considering that I think there are more niche Pokemon in C- IMO.
 
I disagree with a Volcarona rise.

Currently, hazard control is abysmal, and 100+ scarfers are really common. It seems like Keldeo or Garchomp is on every other team right now.

It really seems to me that Volcarona is a mon that you have to build a team around, and that doesn't scream A+ to me, since those mons are all splashable as fuck on any team.
I think Volcarona moving up is completely justified at this time. The main reasons I want to move it up is because prepping for it is such a pain because nothing reliably deals completely with it these days barring Chansey and Mantine. Everything else in the current meta can lose to Volcarona's coverage moves or Z-move sets. Considering that Mantine isn't that good, that leaves you with Chansey. Yes, 101+ scarfers are common, but all of them rely on Stone Edge/Rock Slide to revenge kill it. However, Charti Berry Volcarona beats those mons without missing a beat. Example of this is Iloveleague vs ABR in OST semi-finals. ABR brought Charti Volc vs League's Scarf Keldeo, lived the Stone Edge and proceeded to sweep.

While yes, you often times have to build around Volcarona that doesn't make it less effective and threatening. The rankings are mostly factor how strong a Pokemon is in the current meta, not really how splashable it may be. Tangrowth, Scizor, Keldeo are all more splashable, but they generally fall short of being A+ levels of effective. The combination of Volc's coverage moves and versatility is a huge pain for teams to consistently deal with. The main reason why Volc became such a threat this gen, is because of the lack of Talonflame and Tyranitar in the tier. Without Tyranitar and Talonflame, you don't have to run Bug Buzz and run better coverage moves. In the case of Talonflame, now you don't have to worry about priority Brave Birds stopping your sweep short.

Volcarona should definitely be A+, even despite hazard control being subpar. It's always been able to a constant threat this entire generation and continues to find ways to be effective while beating all of its checks or revenge killers.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
No Kartana rise? FeelsBadMan

Talon isn't really something I have an opinion on, so I agree with both parties on this one.

Speaking of C- Fire types, there is one I have noticed that baffles me as to it's low placing, that being Victini:

victini.gif

C- --> C+

I don't really see why the low ranking, especially considering crap like Whimsicott and Torkoal are considered OK there. This thing has enough coverage to feed Africa (everything from the signatures of Zekrom and Reshiram to U-turn to... Glaciate, for some reason), and having all of that alongside decent support like Trick, Dual Screens and Will-o-wisp is pretty good in my book. Victory Star is also slightly underappreciated, as some of it's more inaccurate moves (like V-create and Focus Blast) become slightly more reliable. Oh yeah, and did I mention that this thing has the title as TECHNICALLY the strongest Z-move in the game in Z V-create? I know it's not doing much with that, but it's still worth noting.

I understand that Gren, it's knock on good hazard control and the rise in Tyranitar do it no favors (as well as it's 100 a piece stat structure not being that amazing atm or anything), but even then C- seems a little cruel. Anyone else agree to a rise? Or should we wait for a bit? I'd like to hear thoughts!

EDIT: Oh yeah it gets taunt.
 
I think Volcarona moving up is completely justified at this time. The main reasons we decided to move it up is because prepping for it is such a pain because nothing reliably deals completely with it these days barring Chansey and Mantine. Everything else in the current meta can lose to Volcarona's coverage moves or Z-move sets. Considering that Mantine isn't that good, that leaves you with Chansey. Yes, 101+ scarfers are common, but all of them rely on Stone Edge/Rock Slide to revenge kill it. However, Charti Berry Volcarona beats those mons without missing a beat. Example of this is Iloveleague vs ABR in OST semi-finals. ABR brought Charti Volc vs League's Scarf Keldeo, lived the Stone Edge and proceeded to sweep.

While yes, you often times have to build around Volcarona that doesn't make it less effective and threatening. The rankings are mostly factor how strong a Pokemon is in the current meta, not really how splashable it may be. Tangrowth, Scizor, Keldeo are all more splashable, but they generally fall short of being A+ levels of effective. The combination of Volc's coverage moves and versatility is a huge pain for teams to consistently deal with. The main reason why Volc became such a threat this gen, is because of the lack of Talonflame and Tyranitar in the tier. Without Tyranitar and Talonflame, you don't have to run Bug Buzz and run better coverage moves. In the case of Talonflame, now you don't have to worry about priority Brave Birds stopping your sweep short.

Volcarona should definitely be A+, even despite hazard control being subpar. It's always been able to a constant threat this entire generation and continues to find ways to be effective while beating all of its checks or revenge killers.

I agree with Volc to A+. It was actually something I argued against a little while back but the rise in popularity of the charti berry set has kind of put this thing over the edge. A lot of the most popular answers to a +1 Volc lose to charti berry allowing volc to get to +2 and pretty much autowin, making the list of reliable checks to this thing even smaller. In addition, the growing popularity of hp ice has made certain checks like bulky zygarde irrelevant. Pretty much Volcarona can run so many variations to its QD sweeper set that its list of consistent counters its ridiculously small. The only things that come to mind are scarf terrak and scarf Garchomp running stone edge over rock slide, since these two scarfers can kill through charti.

Quick list of Volcarona's supposed checks/counters that it can still beat depending on the set:

Charti Berry: Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Nihilego, Scarf Rock Slide Chomp, Scarf Duggy
Hp Ground: Heatran
Hp Ice: Zygarde/Bulky Chomp
Shattered Psyche: Toxapex

The list of mons that beats this thing regardless of set is way too small so I would agree with a rise to A+
 
I would like to make a nomination or two that might be a little more controversial. Goodbye cruel world

Mimikyu
B ----> B+

Mimikyu is an extremely potent SD sweeper, imo. With its ability Disguise, it gets one free turn to set up outside of Mold Breaker. The only viable Pokemon with this ability is Excadrill, which is currently B itself. Once set up, it can use either Shadow Claw or Play Rough if the foe is slower, and Shadow Sneak if the foe is faster unless you're facing Lele. It also has item versatility with the choice between LO and Ghostium-Z. LO allows for more overall power while Ghostium-Z gives you a nuke if you need it. The thing that holds this thing back in B+ for me is that it has mediocre physical defense, and most Steel moves are physical. It also can't run coverage. Other than that, I think it deserves a raise.

Salamence
B ----> B+

Salamence is imo the better of the two Flynium-Z DD users, but I think it at least should be on an equal tier as its closest competitor. The quad weakness of Mence is less common than Gyra's (Mostly cause of Koko), it has a powerful STAB move is Outrage or Dragon Claw, and is able to run a more powerful coverage option to handle the quad weakness in Stone Edge than with EQ on Gyra. However, it is less bulky than Gyrados and doesn't have as many choices as it either. Still, I think these two are pretty evenly matched.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
No Kartana rise? FeelsBadMan

Talon isn't really something I have an opinion on, so I agree with both parties on this one.

Speaking of C- Fire types, there is one I have noticed that baffles me as to it's low placing, that being Victini:

View attachment 81653
C- --> C+

I don't really see why the low ranking, especially considering crap like Whimsicott and Torkoal are considered OK there. This thing has enough coverage to feed Africa (everything from the signatures of Zekrom and Reshiram to U-turn to... Glaciate, for some reason), and having all of that alongside decent support like Trick, Dual Screens and Will-o-wisp is pretty good in my book. Victory Star is also slightly underappreciated, as some of it's more inaccurate moves (like V-create and Focus Blast) become slightly more reliable. Oh yeah, and did I mention that this thing has the title as TECHNICALLY the strongest Z-move in the game in Z V-create? I know it's not doing much with that, but it's still worth noting.

I understand that Gren, it's knock on good hazard control and the rise in Tyranitar do it no favors (as well as it's 100 a piece stat structure not being that amazing atm or anything), but even then C- seems a little cruel. Anyone else agree to a rise? Or should we wait for a bit? I'd like to hear thoughts!

EDIT: Oh yeah it gets taunt.
You've touched on a lot of what Victini does, but haven't actually talked about how it does in the current meta. As much as I love Victini, its typing is super inconvenient in the current meta. As you said, it has no way of easily circumventing its hazards weakness due to the shitty supply of hazard removers, and flat out loses to huge metagame threats in the Greninjas, Dugtrio, Lando-T, Heatran, and the increasingly popular Tyranitar. It also can't even make use of the status moves you referenced bar Trick, since it's way too reliant on either Choice Band or Choice Specs to do damage, which doesn't give it the option or room in its set to run dual screens or Will-O-Wisp, which are wastes on Victini anyway. It also hates V-Create sometimes in that it usually can only use the move once before switching out (Z-V-Create is a way to circumvent this but gives Victini's other attacks poor power, which is why it isn't good) due to the drop in defenses and Speed, which put its otherwise good bulk and speed to such a huge waste. Overall, Victini's only niche is V-Create, which still isn't all too great given the moves drawbacks, a shitty typing, and the fact that its good bulk and speed are immediately offset by the drops they'll suffer after using V-Create. I think that while justifiable on some archetypes, overall Vic doesn't have a niche that's appreciated enough to justify placement in C.

While I'm here, I'd like to go ahead and go over some noms of my own that I think could use some discussion (other noms have been covered pretty well so far):

Alolan Marowak down to B+ Alolawak is such a mixed bag for me. On one hand, it has all the tools necessary to check a lot of really prominent threats, most notably Tapu Koko, but also Heatran, Mega Scizor, Magearna, Volcarona, and a few otherwise really bothersome defensive mons, like Mew, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn. On the other hand, however, it loses to a lot of really prevalent things, like Lando-T, Keldeo, Ash Greninja, Gengar, Garchomp, and any offensive water really. It's also struggling in a metagame without sufficient means of hazard control, since Mega Metagross can actually break past it from full with rocks down, while other Pokemon that it'd otherwise narrowly defeat can do this as well, like Volcarona with boosted HP Ground. A weakness to the increasingly prevalent Tyranitar is also grounds for concern, while its double-edged sword of a typing also leaves it weak to Rock- and Ground-type revenge killers that seem to be increasing in prevalence as well. Overall, Alolan Marowak just feels like a Pokemon that has a lot of flaws that given the meta's current trends, seem to hurt it when it attempts accomplishing its role as a check to various threats, and in my eyes these flaws are grounds for a drop to B+, though it still is a fantastic check to what it aims to check without Stealth Rock down.

Terrakion up to A- I really like Terrakion right now. It has an amazing offensive typing that covers most of the metagame, and sits at a really convenient Speed tier for revenging a lot of really threatening sweepers at +1. Volcarona continues to grow in popularity, while Salamence, Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, and +1 Mega Sharpedo can also all be really important Pokemon to quickly dispose of. Even without these threats on the opposing team, Terrakion can still provide for your team as a super solid revenge killer of unboosted threats thanks to its excellent STAB coverage, and even as a late-game cleaner since there isn't often a ton of struggle in removing the Pokemon that need to be removed for Terrak to clean up. Overall, Terrakion's just a really consistent revenge killer in the current meta, and in my eyes is a little better in its role than a similar Pokemon in Nihilego, which should be reflected with a rise to A-.

Slowbro up to B I'm fairly sure that this was said to have a chance to rise again as soon as it dropped, and with Pheromosa gone, it definitely should. Slowbro's typing allows it to function as an extremely sturdy check to Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Mawile, which are all extremely potent threats in the current meta. It's also got a lot of potential as a check to non-Dark Pulse Greninja, and has a lot of utility moves to abuse while checking the aforementioned threats, meaning it'll always find a way to positively provide for your team. Right now I really just feel like Slowbro has what it takes over the many other bulky Water-types in its rank to rise, and has also benefitted from the increased viability of bulky Psychics.

Torkoal unranked This has been brought up a few times, and I agree with every suggestion that's been made to unrank Torkoal. It really can't consistently provide for your team with its poor typing and shitty speed tier, especially in a metagame without good hazard control. Sun in itself isn't even a good play style, as any abuser of sun will do just fine without actual weather support unless against rain, which is increasingly less prevalent. To me, Torkoal just feels like such a hard Pokemon to justify using due to how overwhelmed it can get in trying to accomplish everything it wants to, and ultimately just stacks undesirable weaknesses onto teams. Not sure that its niche is nearly as valuable as those of Whimsicott, Mandibuzz, or Espeon either, and those all feel like borderline viable Pokemon anyway.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far! I hope you enjoyed, let me know what you guys think.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 3)

Top