Homeboy you're missing it, Omastar isn't a Mega. Mega Pert takes a Mega slot and while I'm not denying it's a good use of a mega slot, rain has an opening for more than MegaPert. Bulkier rain can run Mega Sciz especially if pelipper is specs bc no reliable defog, while if you have no answers to stall MegaChomp is a fantastic wallbreaker. MegaPert usually just does a better job reenforcing Kingra's role as a fast powerful rain sweeper on the physical side.
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
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I'm tired of Amoonguss being talked like it's not a good Pokemon lol. Like it still sees usage in tour matches, and it compresses roles very well. No it's not Tangrowth, but that's also why they are two entire ranks apart, and an entire rank below Ferro as well.
Not saying that an Amoonguss drop is out of the question, but entertaining the idea of it going to B- is absolutely absurd. This Pokemon is constantly brought up to be dropped like 3 ranks and that's just not happening. Most of the arguments for dropping it that far are just not good lol.
Not saying that an Amoonguss drop is out of the question, but entertaining the idea of it going to B- is absolutely absurd. This Pokemon is constantly brought up to be dropped like 3 ranks and that's just not happening. Most of the arguments for dropping it that far are just not good lol.
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Hippo should not be unranked. C+ is a fine rank for it. Reliable recovery is huge and that means it can set up rocks several times throughout a match, and it's still a good way to handle big threats like Mega Pinsir/Tapu Koko. Plus, being able to change weather is helpful with all the rain teams running around (even though Hippo obviously loses in the 1v1).
Mega Alakazam has not been reacting well at all to recent meta trends. We're seeing more Celesteela, Magearna, and Tyranitar usage than any other time in the gen. Magearna and Celesteela, particularly Celesteela, completely wall Mega Alakazam, and we all know how difficult those mons are to deal with. Chansey's also being used on certain BO teams, which hurts Mega Alakazam's niche as an offense killer, as it's completely unable to do anything to it. Against Tyranitar, it's gotta risk Focus Blast hitting every time, and it's the same case against Weavile too, or else both just KO with Pursuit, even without Alakazam switching out. Another thing we are seeing more is Scarf Greninja, which just U-turns out every time for free. It's also had horrible tournament success, being used a grand total of 6 times in WCoP and losing 5 of those matches. It also faces a lot of competition with better megas, like Pinsir, Charizard Y, and Mawile, which means that it's harder to fit on teams because a lot of the time other megas provide more defensive utility or stronger offensive presence.
Edit: Another nom:
Honestly this thing is just really bad right now. It's basically outclassed as a scarfer by the myriad of more viable options (Keldeo, Garchomp, even Terrak) and it's walled by a really high amount of viable, common mons in the meta (Magearna, Mew, Celesteela, Heatran, Landorus-T, Garchomp, etc) and is just pretty shitty against all playstyles, not to mention it just gets trapped by Dugtrio so it can't even switch into zard after that. Anything that lets SG / TR Magearna setup is a bad mon in my book. Not much to say here outside of the fact that it really doesn't deserve B rank at all and should drop.
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Rain is more common and this mon traces shift swim. How is that bad? Moreover dugtrio is using currently groundium Z, not sash and toxic not sucker punch making it unable to kill zam.to B+
Mega Alakazam has not been reacting well at all to recent meta trends.
Well, if you would using actual good set AKA stallbreaker zam then it wouldn't be problem. Chansey loses 1v1 against this set, magearna gets it vest knocked out and then it is unable to wall anything. And honestly, if you didn't mean chople Tar I am gonna laugh thath you consider losing 30% of time (even less, because some people are smart enough to not stay in praying for miss) bad matchup!
Nice that you mention wcop stats but with such low usage win ratio isn't best way of measure success. I am pretty sure that people weren't using set that is in my humble opinion good one.
Umm...have you even used the thing as a scarfer? While it's got some poor coverage options(namely, lack of ice-type coverage over HP Ice), its special attack and speed are good enough to be serious threats after chip damage, and its coverage options can still be picked out based on what the team needs. HP Ice just needs a rough 20% chip on a defensive Lando-T to be able to take it down. Even the tankier Garchomp variant takes serious damage from it and can be OHKO'd after 30%. With HP Ice, and no Beast Boost that it sometimes will get. Oh, and it outspeeds both with its own scarf. And this is without Stealth Rock, Spikes, poison/burn/toxic damage and worst-case scenario on the calc. Most won't necessarily be running like this.to B- / C+
Honestly this thing is just really bad right now. It's basically outclassed as a scarfer by the myriad of more viable options (Keldeo, Garchomp, even Terrak) and it's walled by a really high amount of viable, common mons in the meta (Magearna, Mew, Celesteela, Heatran, Landorus-T, Garchomp, etc) and is just pretty shitty against all playstyles, not to mention it just gets trapped by Dugtrio so it can't even switch into zard after that. Anything that lets SG / TR Magearna setup is a bad mon in my book. Not much to say here outside of the fact that it really doesn't deserve B rank at all and should drop.
252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 304-360 (79.5 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 296-352 (70.9 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can take down some of the best sweepers/wallbreakers/pivots in the tier that are highly ranked.
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 336-396 (108 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charti Berry Volcarona: 248-294 (79.7 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 386-456 (137.3 - 162.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 460-544 (154.8 - 183.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 296-350 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (will still outspeed even after a single Dragon Dance as well)
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 564-664 (208.1 - 245%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 256-302 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (same with Ash, and it can handle taking the priority Water Shuriken.)
It is not nearly as bad as you're saying it is. Some teams can handle Garchomp, Lando and other Pokemon some other way. LO Protean Gren is fast enough to Ice Beam and OHKO, then sweep after. It has its place, and that can be as simple as taking out sweepers/breakers before they have a chance to go through the team, and makes a good scarfer for a few of my teams.
RANKING UPDATE
Rises
A ---> A+
A- ---> A
B- ---> B
Drops
A+ ---> A
A- ---> B+
B- ---> C
C ---> C-
Discussion Slate:
A- ---> A
A ---> A-
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
We got a pretty good discussion slate this time, so hope ya'll enjoy! Oh and like always, make sure to wait until next Tuesday before discussing Mega Gallade, Lopunny, and Gardevoir's placement!
Rises
Drops
- Mew is easily one of the most splashable utility Pokemon in the meta atm. It's one of the tier's best hazard removers because of its solid bulk and reliable recovery, making it a perfect pick for many teams in need of removal. It's also able to effectively blanket check a ton of top tier threats, such as Tapu Bulu, Zygarde, Landorus-T, Mega Mawile, Scarf Tapu Lele and non Dark Pulse Greninja. Unless you have something like a Heatran, Mega Charizard-Y, Volcarona, or Ash Greninja, it can be VERY difficult to wear down because of its pure Psychic-typing and outstanding bulk, and it is easily able to spread Wisps to cripple many physical attackers like CB T-tar that may try to break through it. Its Speed is also a huge issue for most teams because it is just able to outspeed and cripple so many offensive Pokemon. Because of this, we think that Mew is definitely warranted a slot in A+ as a top tier pick.
- If there's one thing round 1 of WCOP has shown us, it's that Mega Charizard Y is clearly one of the most dominant megas in the metagame atm. Thanks to the support of Dugtrio and sometimes T-tar, its defensive counterplay is very limited because of its raw power and superb coverage. Fire resists are far and few atm, with the most common being Garchomp and Zygarde, the both of which can only switch in twice at most. It also helps that the most common Latios seen are Scarf, meaning that they don't carry reliable recovery and are easily worn down. Other defensive counterplay such as Chansey can be trapped by Dugtrio/CB T-tar. Flamethrower is more commonly used over Fire Blast atm, because despite its loss in power, it's still able to wallbreak consistently and have a better match up vs defensive teams, considering how easy it is for them to stall out Fire Blast. Rain is also more prevalent than every at the moment, and Zard-Y can effectively counter measure it by forcing out the likes of Mega Swampert and 1v1ing Pelipper in the Sun.
- Mega Venusaur's ability to check Greninja is a lot more effective now considering that Exstrasensory isn't nearly as common as it was a few months ago. It's also one of the few Pokemon in the metagame that can check nearly all variants of Bulu bar SD Zen Headbutt which is very rare anyway. It's also one of the best switch-ins to Mega Mawile in the tier, which alone, warrants it a slot on some bulky offensive builds.
- Tangrowth is still one of the more splashable Pokemon, but the metagame has been starting to adapt to it more and take advantage of it. The influx in Zard-Y and Mega Pinsir is very problematic for it, as they are able to a completely switch freely into it unless it runs the rare Rock Slide. Toxic Spikes Greninja has also been popping up quite a bit, which lessens its overall durability and can make it more prone to being 2HKOed by something like Ash Greninja or CB Zygarde. While Heatran can't blindly switch-in because of EQ, its overall influx is also problematic for Tangrowth, as it will usually give Heatran a free Substitute.
- Amoonguss, while still a good Pokemon, is a little out of place in A- currently. While it's still great at compressing roles thanks to its Poison-typing to absorb T-spikes as well as keeping Ash Gren, Koko, and Keldeo in check, it still faces heavy competition overall from Ferrothorn and Tangrowth as a defensive Grass-type.
- Omastar has been way too high for far too long. Its niche on rain teams has took a huge hit with the introduction of Mega Swampert, because now there is little reason to use Omastar over Swampert, Kingdra, or even Ash Greninja. Specs Pelipper is also seeing more usage, which can also heavily pressure defensive cores on its own for its teammates.
- Magneton's niche as a Choice Scarf user/trapper is way too niche to be considered any higher than C- rank.
Discussion Slate:
We got a pretty good discussion slate this time, so hope ya'll enjoy! Oh and like always, make sure to wait until next Tuesday before discussing Mega Gallade, Lopunny, and Gardevoir's placement!
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Communists who refuse to move Toxapex to A+ are disgusting. Swear on your Timbs Grant...
Either way, I got what I wanted in the end.
I do want to say that one of the reasons I have some hesitation for Magnezone and Mega Scizor to drop from A- though is that they still have pretty powerful niches (at times) that can really benefit teams that appreciate some of their compression.
I'm going to throw a couple other things in this too.
A- ---> A
I'll understand if this is thrown out due to bias, but I still think in spite of Tyranitar Zapdos is too damn good for A-. Not only is it something that is powerful for a lot of offensive teams to lean back on, it's also something that is heavily used on some stall builds (Double Defog) that can just pull wins with its even greater difficulty of keeping hazards up in my opinion. Fast Zapdos is still really damn good against a lot of things in the meta and it has a lot less to fear against Landorus-Therian now that a lot of them have opted to use Smack Down Flyinium Z (Zapdos should be faster if you're using the good Zapdos so being knocked down is irrelevant against it one-on-one). Zapdos right now has one of the highest win rates in WCoP too - 75% (which is higher than Dugtrio ffs). This thing is way too good to hang around Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham in my opinion. I admit Tyranitar is still a potential problem for Zapdos, but one thing that does help a little bit is that Mega Tyranitar can't safely set up as Discharge has a 30% paralysis rate to cripple Dragon Dance.
B+ ---> B
I think Alolan Marowak is starting to show that it's not all great anymore. It's not even something that consistently breaks through stall all the time and can be really deadweight against other teams as well. I think Alolan Marowak feels a lot more matchup dependent over time, and while it's a cool Alolan Pokemon I have a hard time seeing it alongside a lot of the B+ rank Pokemon that have more consistent matchups.
There are some things that I guess that make this nomination shaky - not all Heatran pack Earth Power and Bonemarang can fuck over Heatran. There's also Mew that just give Alolan Marowak free switch-ins. I just wanted to see what others thought on this one honestly since I think it's a little more like Kyurem-B - decent breaker with good potential, but has moments where it just doesn't really excel at a lot.
Either way, I got what I wanted in the end.
Definitely agree. If there's one Pokemon many people sleep on - it's Clefable (jej remember B- Clefable? Good times). Low key a very good defensive Pokemon right now in the tier with the Stealth Rock Magic Guard set. With Magearna's lacking STAB on their Shift Gear sets it's easier to take advantage of with Flamethrower. It's also a respectable check to a lot of threats and reliable in laying Stealth Rock. Being able to carry Knock Off or Thunder Wave as other utility moves still help improve its versatility. It's also one of the stronger components to a stall team with Unaware. It has awesome synergy with a lot of defensive teammates such as Celesteela, Toxapex, Zapdos, and Chansey with rather high win rates too. Combine with its astounding high usage rate as well as solid win rate (it's about 57% in WCoP atm and I know not all of these are stall either) it's just a win / win situation for Clefable in my opinion.Discussion Slate:
A- ---> A
I still kind of disagree on this, but I guess in fairness with how a lot of current A Rank Pokemon are I can understand why this is being considered. I think Keldeo still provides to be a fairly good scarfer in spite of sometimes not always being the most optimal in comparison to Greninja and Latios, and it's becoming a little better at revenge killing Volcarona again since Charti Berry isn't as common as it once was. Out of the current Scarfers it still loses the second least momentum in my opinion (only Greninja has better momentum due to U-turn). Lele can be really bad if there's Tyranitar or Weavile, and Garchomp just has a lot of awful momentum problems in general.A ---> A-
Agreed for the most part. There is some practical methods to using Mega Alakazam to counterteam a bit, but I don't think that's really strong enough to keep it up with A- ranked Pokemon that just are arguably more consistent and don't rely on "counterteaming" to an extent.A- ---> B+
Already said my piece with nothing to add. Less win percentage in comparison to Tapu Lele is fucking horrendous. Drop it IMO.A- ---> B+
I think the only reason I'm hesitant on the drop is because a lot of the more powerful special attackers are going for Scarf and some like Tapu Koko can still be pressured by this Pokemon pretty well. It's gotten a little worse in trapping Ferrothorn since rain is a bit more common, but I think that Assault Vest is still really good for team compression while handling the things that cause some teams major headaches. Leles and Latios going for Choice Scarves really help AV Zone a lot. The only Koko Magnezone fears is Guardian of Alola variants, which are incredibly rare (sadly). For now I'd rather keep it in A-.A- ---> B+
I'm glad someone brought this one up. I agree that it's maybe time for Mega Scizor to grace itself down back to B+. It's a nice Zygarde check, but the Defog set has lost a lot of its niche since Mega Metagross's disappearance. Mega Scizor is still very good on some builds.A- ---> B+
I do want to say that one of the reasons I have some hesitation for Magnezone and Mega Scizor to drop from A- though is that they still have pretty powerful niches (at times) that can really benefit teams that appreciate some of their compression.
I'm going to throw a couple other things in this too.
I'll understand if this is thrown out due to bias, but I still think in spite of Tyranitar Zapdos is too damn good for A-. Not only is it something that is powerful for a lot of offensive teams to lean back on, it's also something that is heavily used on some stall builds (Double Defog) that can just pull wins with its even greater difficulty of keeping hazards up in my opinion. Fast Zapdos is still really damn good against a lot of things in the meta and it has a lot less to fear against Landorus-Therian now that a lot of them have opted to use Smack Down Flyinium Z (Zapdos should be faster if you're using the good Zapdos so being knocked down is irrelevant against it one-on-one). Zapdos right now has one of the highest win rates in WCoP too - 75% (which is higher than Dugtrio ffs). This thing is way too good to hang around Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham in my opinion. I admit Tyranitar is still a potential problem for Zapdos, but one thing that does help a little bit is that Mega Tyranitar can't safely set up as Discharge has a 30% paralysis rate to cripple Dragon Dance.
I think Alolan Marowak is starting to show that it's not all great anymore. It's not even something that consistently breaks through stall all the time and can be really deadweight against other teams as well. I think Alolan Marowak feels a lot more matchup dependent over time, and while it's a cool Alolan Pokemon I have a hard time seeing it alongside a lot of the B+ rank Pokemon that have more consistent matchups.
There are some things that I guess that make this nomination shaky - not all Heatran pack Earth Power and Bonemarang can fuck over Heatran. There's also Mew that just give Alolan Marowak free switch-ins. I just wanted to see what others thought on this one honestly since I think it's a little more like Kyurem-B - decent breaker with good potential, but has moments where it just doesn't really excel at a lot.
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B+ -> B: Agree
With all the stuff that's been banned since SuMo OU began I'm surprised this thing actually stayed around the B+ range for so long. Half the stuff it existed to check/counter has either been banned (Pheromosa), dropped in viability altogether (Xurkitree), or has since started running options to indirectly deal with Alolan Marowak (Groundium Z Celesteela, unless that's since become a gimmick at best). I don't think it's necessarily a bad mon, but with extremely strong Ground types everywhere in the tier and Rain making a huge impact on the tier I literally cannot see this thing being ranked alongside Kingdra and Mega Swampert.
That being said, it has a couple things still going for it. Since it can't get trapped by Dugtrio it doesn't really have too bad a time with Stall. Ghost/Fire is an awesome typing - particularly on the offensive side - and with this thing's crazy Attack stat it's at least denting anything it hits. It has coverage for Heatran, too. It's just that current metagame trends, like Lando's continued dominance, the ubiquity of anti-Fire coverage because of Volcarona's existence, and the rise of rain and TTar are hurting it way, way too much.
I'll make a separate nom in a followup post.
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Why didnt Chansey move up to A? It moving up to A was a disscusion point that nobody disagreed with I recall. From the most recent update alone, zard y moved up to A so i think it makes sense one of the few true counters to it should rise (this isnt great logic ik but my point is chansey should rise; people talked about this few pages back with good reasoning)
There were support to move Mega Venusaur up too; a ranking team member even agreed with it but it's not even a discussion point this week? :(
Disagree with the Keldeo drop
With rain being good atm, being a water resist with decent bulk is really good. Scarf set is a real pain for rain teams to handle under rain and offers great speed control against pretty much all speed boosting sweepers: volc, ttar, gyara, zard x. Specs set is still strong as hell (tangrowth is NOT a counter to this people, Secret Sword 2HKO after rocks). Finally, Scald is still Scald; nothing has changed, nothing wants to be burned.
There were support to move Mega Venusaur up too; a ranking team member even agreed with it but it's not even a discussion point this week? :(
Disagree with the Keldeo drop
With rain being good atm, being a water resist with decent bulk is really good. Scarf set is a real pain for rain teams to handle under rain and offers great speed control against pretty much all speed boosting sweepers: volc, ttar, gyara, zard x. Specs set is still strong as hell (tangrowth is NOT a counter to this people, Secret Sword 2HKO after rocks). Finally, Scald is still Scald; nothing has changed, nothing wants to be burned.
Avant Heim
formerly The Bill Cipher
Agree. Magic Guard+Stealth Rocks+ a very good defensive type(only having 2 weakness, having 3 resistances and 1 immunity) is a thing that many people sleep on. It has an good defensive synergy with basically everything on stall(Chansey and Toxapex are exemples) and it has a LOT of utility moves. We can also use Unaware Fable on stall to check setup-sweepers. For me this factors make it worthy of A rank
Sadly i have to agree with this one. There is just a lot of things that stop it recently, some exemples are:Tangrowth, Magearna, Mew(if locked on something that isn't Hydro Pump), Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Amoonguss
Agree. The rise of pursuit and stuff that counters it such as Mew really huts this guy. Also, there are A LOT of more consistent A- pokémon
Agree. The meta adapted in a way that it just beats or shadow friend. We have a rise of Pursuit trapping, the fact that every Choice Scarf beats it, and new solid specially defensive counters. I don't belive that losing Levitate was a bif deal because it couldn't enter on the common Ground Types on the tier, and also Gengar can abuse of Terrains and remove Tspikes, but the meta is just way too prepeared for him
On the fence with this one. Sure, it's and good trapper against common Steel-Types, it checkes special attackers that use Choice Scarf and the special attackers that DON'T use Scarf, but there's also mons like Dugtrio that traps it and kill it, there's Volcarona that only doesn't resist Magnezone's electric STAB and can set up on it, there's Alolan Wak that carries Lightning Rod, there is Chansey that hard walls Magnezone and there are the Fighting types that are faster than it. Also rain is getting popular so it's harder to check Ferrothorn
Agree. The Defog set lost popularity since Mega Gross's ban, but hey, it's a solid check to a lot of things, like Gengar and Zygarde
Agree. The other posts about this mon really say everything. A LOT of things that this guy checked are either gone( Pheromosa) or are just bad right now( Xurkitree). Also we have rain's rise in popularity, which for me is self explanatory
My apologies. Mega Venu rose I just didn't include it in the post on accident. Chansey wasn't moved up because the ranking team was split on the decision overall, and we would like to wait a bit more time to see if it still continues to see more usage outside of stall based archetypes in the upcoming round 2 of WCOP.
Even a few weeks ago I probably would have disagreed with this nomination, but as I become more and more familiar with the metagame certain Pokemon stick out more and more. One of those such Pokemon is Greninja. While the other Pokemon in S have massive impacts on the metagame, Greninja has a massive impact on individual matches (as well as a substantial impact on the metagame as a whole). The reason for this is twofold.
First, let's talk about the defining characteristic of Greninja in S/M; the fact that it's essentially two completely different Pokemon with completely different checks, and there's no identifying characteristics of either set until it's made an attack. This completely changes the dynamic of the match before Greninja even makes a move. Is your opponent's Greninja Protean or Ash? You might think your Ferrothorn is a solid switchin to your opponent's Ash-Greninja but, oh wait, it wasn't Ash-Greninja, it was Protean Greninja and it just bopped you with HP Fire. In a similar vein, you might think it's safe to sac a Pokemon to what you might assume is Protean Greninja only to find out it was Ash Greninja and now you've got a monster on your hands. Sometimes you can determine what kind of Greninja your opponent is running just by analyzing their team composition but this isn't reliable at all. This essentially forces you to play against an opposing Greninja as if it is both Ash-Greninja and Protean Greninja at the same time, at least until it makes a move and reveals its set. No other Pokemon truly has this dynamic except perhaps Z-move Landorus-T and to a lesser extent Charizard, one of which is S itself and the other of which has a couple fairly safe switch-ins to both sets and is easier to determine its form from team preview.
Now let's talk about Protean. Protean is perhaps one of the single most broken abilities in the game in my opinion. The ability to change types on a whim and access to an extremely colourful movepool makes the frog exceptionally dangerous to any archetype because it has very few safe switchins. Even Chansey can be bopped by Low Kick into Z-Low Kick, as rare as that is, leaving Magearna and Sp. Def Celesteela as basically the only viable switchins to all Greninja sets. Ash-Greninja at least has a number of Pokemon it can't really touch, being as it lacks access to a number of Protean Greninja's coverage options such as HP Fire, Gunk Shot, and Low Kick.
In addition, Greninja sports access to Spikes which are incredible in the current metagame, while threatening the tier's premier Defogger, Mew. The restrictions Greninja places both on teambuilding and actual counterplay within a battle makes it more than worthy of S rank in my opinion. The fact that it doesn't bring the same defensive merits to a team that Landorus-T and Magearna do is made up for by the sheer offensive pressure it brings, as well as potential team support int he form of Spikes or even Toxic Spikes. The reason why I chose to nominate Protean Greninja over Ash-Greninja is because at least Ash-Greninja has several countermeasures it cannot bypass (Chansey, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, etc), however I could see Ash-Greninja being raised or even both, as either one's success is linked to the mechanics of the other and the guessing game that must be played upon team preview to determine which form you are facing.
And now for what will probably be my most controversial direct nomination thus far:
to A+
Zard Y is incredible. It's becoming anti-meta to such an extent that it's becoming meta. Everything I - and many others - had said about it when discussing its potential rise to A is good enough reason for it to rise to A+: its switchins are extremely limited and its speed tier, for a wallbreaker with such power, is excellent. It has excellent coverage to work with alongside a Fire Blast that half the tier is cleanly 2HKOed or OHKOed by, with Focus Blast 2HKOing SpDef Heatran and cleanly OHKOing just about every viable variant of TTar and its Mega and Solar Beam handling most Water types that can live a Fire Blast or Focus Blast nicely. Zygarde and Garchomp get worn down by Fire Blast incredibly quickly, with even uncommon bulky variants of the latter almost always being 2HKOed and with even SpDef Coil Zygarde taking about a quarter of its health in damage and risking being burned each time. It can check opposing weather variants quite reliably and can beat most Tyranitar variants 1v1 under Sand. It puts enough pressure on rain teams and Pelipper that it can ultimately force Pelipper to either die fighting it under Sun or force the Pelipper user to switch into and sacrifice something else.
Delving into its other options, it can run reliable recovery thanks to Roost, giving this thing some serious staying power and plenty more turns to blast gaping holes in your opponent's team, and the interesting Flame Charge to give it a better time versus faster teams. The latter is interesting largely because it's able to outspeed non-Scarf Greninja variants, Mega Lopunny and Manectric, Scarf Tapu Lele, standard Tapu Koko, and much more, if it manages to get the Flame Charge off, which drastically reduces the number of revenge killers that can check it. It does so much with its STAB and two coverage moves that it can opt to run that it almost always has room for one of these two moves, giving it a bit more versatility.
Although Volcarona obviously performs a different role, I still can't help but compare it to Zard Y: it's something everyone should prepare for even though they're both checked by relatively similar things. With this thing being arguably the best Mega in the tier currently, I feel as it Zard Y should be a clear cut above the likes of Mega Pinsir and Mega Mawile, though both are still good in their own right.
Zard Y is incredible. It's becoming anti-meta to such an extent that it's becoming meta. Everything I - and many others - had said about it when discussing its potential rise to A is good enough reason for it to rise to A+: its switchins are extremely limited and its speed tier, for a wallbreaker with such power, is excellent. It has excellent coverage to work with alongside a Fire Blast that half the tier is cleanly 2HKOed or OHKOed by, with Focus Blast 2HKOing SpDef Heatran and cleanly OHKOing just about every viable variant of TTar and its Mega and Solar Beam handling most Water types that can live a Fire Blast or Focus Blast nicely. Zygarde and Garchomp get worn down by Fire Blast incredibly quickly, with even uncommon bulky variants of the latter almost always being 2HKOed and with even SpDef Coil Zygarde taking about a quarter of its health in damage and risking being burned each time. It can check opposing weather variants quite reliably and can beat most Tyranitar variants 1v1 under Sand. It puts enough pressure on rain teams and Pelipper that it can ultimately force Pelipper to either die fighting it under Sun or force the Pelipper user to switch into and sacrifice something else.
Delving into its other options, it can run reliable recovery thanks to Roost, giving this thing some serious staying power and plenty more turns to blast gaping holes in your opponent's team, and the interesting Flame Charge to give it a better time versus faster teams. The latter is interesting largely because it's able to outspeed non-Scarf Greninja variants, Mega Lopunny and Manectric, Scarf Tapu Lele, standard Tapu Koko, and much more, if it manages to get the Flame Charge off, which drastically reduces the number of revenge killers that can check it. It does so much with its STAB and two coverage moves that it can opt to run that it almost always has room for one of these two moves, giving it a bit more versatility.
Although Volcarona obviously performs a different role, I still can't help but compare it to Zard Y: it's something everyone should prepare for even though they're both checked by relatively similar things. With this thing being arguably the best Mega in the tier currently, I feel as it Zard Y should be a clear cut above the likes of Mega Pinsir and Mega Mawile, though both are still good in their own right.
It's not even like I am heavily disagree with mega zam drop but people are posting totally stupid reasons why zam should drop.A- --->B+
Agree. The rise of pursuit and stuff that counters it such as Mew really huts this guy. Also, there are A LOT of more consistent A- pokémon
First of all Zam is by no way weak to pursuit. There are 2 viable pursuit trappers: Weavile and Tyranitar. Both of them are slower and threaten by OHKO. Unless you run some kind of CT like chople tar or AV tar both of them are rare and overall much less viable than standard scarf/band. Weavile is even OHKO by dazzling gleam after rocks 100% of times.
Second of all mew is hardly consider as counter at all!
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 192-226 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah, stallbreaker set is overall more viable due to knock off utility but shadow ball is still solid option.
Someone please give me a logical explanation as to why Mew was B- in January and is now A+??
And if Mew's typing is so defensively good now then why isn't Necrozma also getting a ranking boost?
Also.......... has anyone here actually even used Hippowdon before? It's basically a Skarmory with better special bulk and SAND STREAM, which is fantastic chip damage and much more reliable for bringing out and rush Excadrill than Ttar.
And if Mew's typing is so defensively good now then why isn't Necrozma also getting a ranking boost?
Also.......... has anyone here actually even used Hippowdon before? It's basically a Skarmory with better special bulk and SAND STREAM, which is fantastic chip damage and much more reliable for bringing out and rush Excadrill than Ttar.
Greninja --> S, Agree
When ninja dropped a little while ago, I was kinda surprised but not 100% against it, because MMetagross had recently been banned, the meta slowed down and got bulkier, and specific mons that can check greninja became even better (Magearna, Celes, Mew). But to be honest, in practice, nothing has changed in my experience. The S-rank worthy threat of greninja is that you cannot know what it's going to do to you. Not only does it have two formes that are each deadly in their own way, it also has a moveset that can't be nailed down. It's main role as a 'kill what the rest of the team needs help with and set up spikes too' mon means that it's own coverage is usually dictated by it's teammate's coverage (i.e. if if you have one or two other mons that can handle ferro, you don't run HP Fire, meaning you can run ESense or DPulse), which means really you'd need to accurately guess every mon's moveset in order to make educated guesses about what ninja's moveset is. Hope this makes sense; my point here is that the unpredictability is incredibly dangerous to every team/playstyle.
Some meta shifts that we're stated as cause for drop we're:
rise of AV Mage
rise of Mew
Pex
rise of Zapdos
Steela
rise of Keldeo
Mage more commonly runs offensive sets now with a z-move, which means it's 2HKOd by HP Fire or Hydro Pump, and is not a switchin. It's not even a check, as Mage can't OHKO a fire type greninja and is obviously outsped.
Zapdos is ohko by ice beam..
Steela is a pain but SpDef is gonna be used to eat your attacks and then ninja is doing exactly what it's supposed to in breaking down walls, and offensive is in the same boat as Mage. 2HKOd, can't OHKO in return (unless physical EQ lol).
The fact that ninja can't beat mew, pex, and keld in one set shouldn't be a reason to hold him back. It's unreasonable to expect that any mon will beat every single wall and pivot in the game 1v1. BUT the fact that it can beat any of them that it wants is amazing (before you say it, rotom-w is 2HKOd by physical ninja's gunkshot).
And that brings us to spikes. Who cares that keld can switch in and eat your attack. You can just spike on the switch, get out, and do it again later.
This mon is never useless in battle, forces guessing games all the time between it's two formes and it's many, many viable sets, and still absolutely wrecks balance teams practically on it's own. Even against stall, ninja threatens to spike all the time AND threatens to 2HKO MSab with hydro. It may be inherently prepared for cause every team has a Celes or Tang or Chansey, but none of these is a reliable check, and all of them give you free spikes.
I know there is some consensus among high level players that ash is better than protean. This could be true, but the fact is that ash has definitive counters that work every time, while protean has none. My nom agreement is for protean ninja to go to S, but I could get behind both of them moving up as well, because they both benefit from the guessing game
When ninja dropped a little while ago, I was kinda surprised but not 100% against it, because MMetagross had recently been banned, the meta slowed down and got bulkier, and specific mons that can check greninja became even better (Magearna, Celes, Mew). But to be honest, in practice, nothing has changed in my experience. The S-rank worthy threat of greninja is that you cannot know what it's going to do to you. Not only does it have two formes that are each deadly in their own way, it also has a moveset that can't be nailed down. It's main role as a 'kill what the rest of the team needs help with and set up spikes too' mon means that it's own coverage is usually dictated by it's teammate's coverage (i.e. if if you have one or two other mons that can handle ferro, you don't run HP Fire, meaning you can run ESense or DPulse), which means really you'd need to accurately guess every mon's moveset in order to make educated guesses about what ninja's moveset is. Hope this makes sense; my point here is that the unpredictability is incredibly dangerous to every team/playstyle.
Some meta shifts that we're stated as cause for drop we're:
rise of AV Mage
rise of Mew
Pex
rise of Zapdos
Steela
rise of Keldeo
Mage more commonly runs offensive sets now with a z-move, which means it's 2HKOd by HP Fire or Hydro Pump, and is not a switchin. It's not even a check, as Mage can't OHKO a fire type greninja and is obviously outsped.
Zapdos is ohko by ice beam..
Steela is a pain but SpDef is gonna be used to eat your attacks and then ninja is doing exactly what it's supposed to in breaking down walls, and offensive is in the same boat as Mage. 2HKOd, can't OHKO in return (unless physical EQ lol).
The fact that ninja can't beat mew, pex, and keld in one set shouldn't be a reason to hold him back. It's unreasonable to expect that any mon will beat every single wall and pivot in the game 1v1. BUT the fact that it can beat any of them that it wants is amazing (before you say it, rotom-w is 2HKOd by physical ninja's gunkshot).
And that brings us to spikes. Who cares that keld can switch in and eat your attack. You can just spike on the switch, get out, and do it again later.
This mon is never useless in battle, forces guessing games all the time between it's two formes and it's many, many viable sets, and still absolutely wrecks balance teams practically on it's own. Even against stall, ninja threatens to spike all the time AND threatens to 2HKO MSab with hydro. It may be inherently prepared for cause every team has a Celes or Tang or Chansey, but none of these is a reliable check, and all of them give you free spikes.
I know there is some consensus among high level players that ash is better than protean. This could be true, but the fact is that ash has definitive counters that work every time, while protean has none. My nom agreement is for protean ninja to go to S, but I could get behind both of them moving up as well, because they both benefit from the guessing game
I agree with CTC on Greninja but I think only Ash-Greninja should rise to S because in my opinion it's simply better than its Protean counterpart at the moment and I feel the ranking should reflect that.
There are several metagame trends favouring Ash Gren at the moment, for one the rise of rain on ladder as well as in tournament play. Ash Gren is really good on rain teams and also very threatening against Rain teams. An other one is the rise of Mew as the premier Defogger in the tier, which is heavily pressured by Ash Gren, especially if it keeps coming in on Spikes to defog them away. Protean Gren doesn't put as much pressure on Mew due to less powerful Dark Pulses, plus running that means you only have 2 slots for other coverage moves and being easier to wear down because of Life Orb recoil.
This and Ash Gren being able to force more switches due to threat of it getting a kill, is why I think it's the better Spikes user at the moment.
Spikes in general are still really good and Ash Gren is not only really good at setting them up, it can also abuse them very well. blunder said it best in one of his recent videos, Ash Gren literally sets up its own sweep by putting its defensive checks in range of Pulse/Pump and its offensive checks in range of Water Shuriken. Speaking of defensive checks, checking Gren defensively can be extremely annoying with Dark Pulse's chance to flinch. Almost every mon that uses a recovery move to stay healthy to check Gren is at a constant risk because if they have a good answer to said check the Ash Gren user can simply go for Dark Pulse and fish for a flinch to get the 3HKO while its check is forced to recover. This may not apply to its most common check in AV Tangrowth but even that can be taken advantage of and put in range of a 2HKO by Dark Pulse especially with Spikes and as soon as that's the case you're forced to sack something, which gives Gren its Ash form.
Overall, I feel like risk vs reward is tilted heavily into Ash Gren's favour during many in battle situations, predicting it to use Spikes and attack with something Gren can kill is extremely risky for obvious reasons while letting a Spike go up makes this thing even more difficult to check the next time it comes in. Same goes for going for the Dark Pulse flinch scenario I explained above.
Also, while Spikes is Ash Gren's best set in my opinion, Ice Beam (for coverage) and U-Turn (if paired with stuff like Zard Y or M-Pinsir to take advantage of Tangrowth, etc.) are still solid options depending on the team.
One of the nominations I don't agree with is the Marowak drop, many Magearna opting for BoltBeam coverage or Electrium/Fightium over Steelium/Fairium definetely strengthened its niche as a Magearna check and Marowak is still something you don't want to come in for more or less free considering how difficult it is to switch into with its great STAB and sheer power.
There are several metagame trends favouring Ash Gren at the moment, for one the rise of rain on ladder as well as in tournament play. Ash Gren is really good on rain teams and also very threatening against Rain teams. An other one is the rise of Mew as the premier Defogger in the tier, which is heavily pressured by Ash Gren, especially if it keeps coming in on Spikes to defog them away. Protean Gren doesn't put as much pressure on Mew due to less powerful Dark Pulses, plus running that means you only have 2 slots for other coverage moves and being easier to wear down because of Life Orb recoil.
This and Ash Gren being able to force more switches due to threat of it getting a kill, is why I think it's the better Spikes user at the moment.
Spikes in general are still really good and Ash Gren is not only really good at setting them up, it can also abuse them very well. blunder said it best in one of his recent videos, Ash Gren literally sets up its own sweep by putting its defensive checks in range of Pulse/Pump and its offensive checks in range of Water Shuriken. Speaking of defensive checks, checking Gren defensively can be extremely annoying with Dark Pulse's chance to flinch. Almost every mon that uses a recovery move to stay healthy to check Gren is at a constant risk because if they have a good answer to said check the Ash Gren user can simply go for Dark Pulse and fish for a flinch to get the 3HKO while its check is forced to recover. This may not apply to its most common check in AV Tangrowth but even that can be taken advantage of and put in range of a 2HKO by Dark Pulse especially with Spikes and as soon as that's the case you're forced to sack something, which gives Gren its Ash form.
Overall, I feel like risk vs reward is tilted heavily into Ash Gren's favour during many in battle situations, predicting it to use Spikes and attack with something Gren can kill is extremely risky for obvious reasons while letting a Spike go up makes this thing even more difficult to check the next time it comes in. Same goes for going for the Dark Pulse flinch scenario I explained above.
Also, while Spikes is Ash Gren's best set in my opinion, Ice Beam (for coverage) and U-Turn (if paired with stuff like Zard Y or M-Pinsir to take advantage of Tangrowth, etc.) are still solid options depending on the team.
One of the nominations I don't agree with is the Marowak drop, many Magearna opting for BoltBeam coverage or Electrium/Fightium over Steelium/Fairium definetely strengthened its niche as a Magearna check and Marowak is still something you don't want to come in for more or less free considering how difficult it is to switch into with its great STAB and sheer power.
mosa ban, gross ban, new stuff like mega medi/maw/gallade/lop, meta trends as well
worse movepool (morning sun is recovery, no wisp, no defog, bad coverage) and worse speed. it's generally outclassed by mew
do /weak hippowdon then do /weak skarmory and think about that for a bit. are you walling kartana with hippo??? also excadrill is kind of bad and irrelevant sorry
hope that helped
The issue with the whole concept of rating the two Grens separately is it neglects part of the reason they're so strong in the first place, a lot of times at team preview you have no idea what mons on your team are threatened by it because of it's ability to systematically choose it's checks based on ability and moveset. Sure you can make an educated guess and better players are going to be correct more often, but at the end of the day Gren is so good this gen because of it's uncertainty at team preview, and it's almost impossible to reflect that with the nature of the rankings system. Realistically greninja at team preview is a completely different mon that I'd argue deserves S+ altogether separately due to Greninja being such a different mon in my head vs. when I've finally discerned its set, but that's a wack way of viewing rankings admittedly.
I think this argument is blown out of proportion. You know after one turn what form it is, and let's be honest here, Gren is best used for Spikes, so saving up the big surprise is usually a really bad move because you would still always rather get that guaranteed chip.
Clefable has multiple viable sets and a Taunt-free SR is a godsend for setters. It even can be a good Calm Mind sweeper or an Unaware monster depending on your taste. Rise Clefable.
It's hard for me to place my finger on what exactly brings it down, but it feels like the meta is somewhat working against it with things like Magearna rising and the likes. Again, not entirely sure, so I'm on the fence.
The main issue for me is the rise of MegaZardY and Heatran among others. Fire-types threaten Magnezone more than ever, and while Rain helps out, Magnezone usually doesn't have room on a Rain team to use it well. I might be missing something else, but Fire is on the rise and that hurts a lot.
Aside from the obvious Fire-type rise, much better Defoggers exist without using the mega slot, such as Zapdos and Latios. Latios in particular outclasses Mega Scizor specifically as a more offensive Defogger. Drop this bug.
I totally agree with this! I think that clef sorta got tossed to the side in the beginning of Sun/Moon because we got so many good fairies, along with one dropping down from ubers. People sorta slept on it because some of the stuff that really dominated the meta either straight up destroyed it (Mega Metagross, Aegislash) Or ran options to hit it really hard (Sludge Wave Lando-I, Poison Jab Pheromosa, etc.) But the metagame has been really in its favor lately. Although its role has definitely changed between gens 6 and 7, and it may not be the S rank wonder that it was then, it's still a really great pokemon that's worth being ranked A.
The set I'll be talking about mainly is what is imo the best one, the max def bold set. I find it both the most splashable and the best to blanket check a number of things in the meta.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower/ Knock Off
That last set can be flamethrower or knock off. Both of them have a ton of utility - flamethrower is nice to get some really good damage on things like excadrill, skarm, ferro, celesteela, magearna and scizor that may want to switch in, while knock off is a lot better against stall. People often times leave in a chansey or a toxapex (Or an opposing clefable) and get their eviolite or leftovers knocked off. Obviously clefable is never going to 6-0 stall, but I've found that it definitely eases the match up. The utility of knock off is really nice against typical clef switch ins while flamethrower is pretty nice to hurt its common switch-ins.
Now to talk about clef itself in the larger picture of the whole meta. Clefable's role has changed a lot since gen 6 where it could effectively run a large number of sets like Calm Mind, SpDef, PhysDef, Rocks Clef, BoltBeam, etc. This generation, it really can't do every single role that it could in ORAS, but it still does its job effectively.
It does a nice job handling stuff like Garchomp, Mega Sableye, Mega Heracross (One of the few reliable counters to it), tangrowth, band zygarde (Unless iron tail then rip) and lots of defensive mons that it beats just because of magic guard being like a fantastic ability (Plus Mega Lopunny but I don't wanna talk too much on that cause it's not really been enough time to say anything about it) Pure fairy typing is so nice dude like you only got two weaknesses and a lot of resists, you get up rocks on oh so many pokemon while checking a bunch more. I find clef super splashable, and that it often brings a lot more advantages to the table than weaknesses. It doesn't necessitate a ton of team support - in fact, sort of the opposite as it provides rocks and checks to things like zygarde. It's nice to have a status absorber too, because it doesn't mind being burnt or poisoned.
To wrap things up cause I'm going super long and don't wanna get too repetitive, clef is a really good mon and deserves A. It handles a bunch of top tier threats in the meta, and provides soft checks to many others. Providing rocks, very nice bulk, and a good blanket check to another physical threat justifies a rise for clef imo. It may not be the meta defining beast in was in ORAS but it certainly is still a great pokemon to use.
- Status