Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[paoisd]

I would like to nominate Mega Medicham from A- to A

medicham is such a big threat to every team right now, being able to completely break bulky teams, have a multitude of sets, priority with fake out, and boosted thunder punches with tapu koko. Every team has to prep for mega medicham right now, and thats not an easy thing to do. its honestly a surprise that medicham isnt A to me

 

[ClockworkLad]

tbh Mega Medi is probably one of the biggest things in the metagame now. Koko + Mega Medi is one of the best offensive cores in the game. Tpunch in electric terrain messes all the fat teams up and makes them wish they had a gym membership.

Wall of Medicham killing things

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega in Electric Terrain: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 398-470 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 240-284 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega in Electric Terrain: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

Not only that but it runs BoltBeam + Fighting coverage which ruins offensive teams including the fact that it runs Fake Out to get a free NSI with chip. What holds it back for me is its' speed tier which gets outsped by like every scarfer but other than that it's really good and dominant.

Medicham --> A = Agree :D

 

[Scribble]

I've been testing Mega Lopunny a lot and it should be B+ imo. It's surely not as good as last gen with Mew and Toxapex everywhere, but I think B is way too harsh and people are underestimating it. Its speed tier is still fantastic, notably outpacing Ash Greninja, forcing it to use Water Shuriken to kill you (Specs Water Shuriken from Ash Gren doesn't kill Lop from full after Rocks and 1 layer of Spikes, so there's that), and it has perfect neutral coverage with its STABs. It gets its Speed turn 1 now so Fake Out is no longer mandated, giving it a bit more freedom to run Power-Up Punch.

It can't do much to Mew, Clefable, and Toxapex, but that's where Mega Lopunny's teammates come in. Mega Lopunny + Heatran is a core I've been using lately and Heatran is able to trap and kill/dent all 3 of the aforementioned mons, which allows Lopunny to sweep late game (PSA: Hazard stack is hella good with Mega Lopunny, reliable switch ins vanish). It's also Offense's worst nightmare lol, Fake Out into Return kills like everything Offense usually runs. Scrappy lets Mega Lopunny break Mimikyu's disguise with Fake Out, and Fake Out also breaks Smeargle's sash. Nothing on Webs really likes switching into Mega Lopunny and usually ends up relying on Mega Pinsir to revenge kill it. Also, Magearna, AV Tangrowth, and Celesteela are not switch ins. HJK does half to all three. Lando-T also isn't a counter cause Ice Punch (and more and more Landos are offensive these days), allowing Lopunny to beat down teams that have Lando-T + Magearna/Cele/Tang as a blanket check core.

Wall of calcs if people want to see them

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 238-282 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 78-93 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 208-246 (82.8 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 195-231 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 213-252 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Keep in mind Mew has to stay healthy to check Lop cause:

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 145-172 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

When I look at B+ I see Swift Swimmers that only work on one playstyle that requires a specific mon and have some match up issues but are extremely effective when they get a good one. Mega Lopunny now isn't as splashable as it once was and does require some support and has some matchup issues too, but shines when it gets a favorable one. I also see a powerful breaker in Hoopa-Unbound that can put dents into teams but is a huge momentum drain after it gets a kill cause of its terrible speed. Mega Lopunny can clean up teams and can put dents (though not as much as Hoopa lol) into teams too and doesn't lose nearly as much momentum because it's so fast. Mega Manectric and Mega Alakazam are the only two mons in the tier that can tie/outspeed it, and both are on a bit of a decline right now.

TL;DR: B is too harsh on Mega Lopunny. Rank it at B+.

 

[cityscapes]

I would like to nominate Mega Medicham from A- to A

medicham is such a big threat to every team right now, being able to completely break bulky teams, have a multitude of sets, priority with fake out, and boosted thunder punches with tapu koko. Every team has to prep for mega medicham right now, and thats not an easy thing to do. its honestly a surprise that medicham isnt A to me

disagree

mew is everywhere and extremely easy to fit on teams, and medi fails to break it (even in terrain iirc). meanwhile even with decently strong priority in fake out (bullet punch isn't good), it just falls flat against offensive teams and gets 1-2 kills at most.

compare to zard y in a: although it needs hazard removal, zard y has no good consistent switchins outside of chansey and toxapex, of which chansey is only good on stall and both are trappable by dug (one of zard y's best teammates). additionally it can give rain teams a huge headache, like if it comes in on peli (or carries sunny day, which is an option) then suddenly the rain user has to predict or lose a mon. medi is not capable of anything like this.

 

[AHappyCactus]

These are just my opinions, not the actual changes lol.

A- ---> A: Agree/Indifferent

A ---> A-: Disagree

A- ---> B+: Agree

A- ---> B+: Strongly Agree

A- ---> B+: Agree

A- ---> B+: Indifferent

---> B+

---> B
This Pokemon has been extremely underwhelming to me lol. While I've been using it/watching others use it, the amount of match-ups where its actually been useful has been far and few. Ladder might be a bit different because that tends to have more Webs which Lopunny obviously is good against, but in like a tour environment or outside of ladder where I run into more of the standard Mew/CelePex/Clefable builds Lopunny does basically nothing. It's also complete deadweight vs stall as well for obvious reasons. Without Ice Punch fat Lando is a huge nuisance, and without PuP it wont even have a chance to break through something like Mew/Clef. I just really dislike it atm, the meta is way too unkind to it, and it's nowhere near as useful as it was last gen.

B ---> B+: Agree

While I agree with almost all of these, the one I really wanna talk about and elaborate on is the status of lopunny in the current meta. (I obviously don't wanna speak for Gary but from that little blurb it seems like he and I think similarly to one another about lopunny rn more or less)

In all honesty, I couldn't wait for lop to come out. In ORAS it was a personal favorite mon of mine, and I really really love her as a mon and as a whole. However, it is straight up undeniable that the meta is incredibly unkind to it right now. It requires a whole lot of support before it can start putting in work. It is dependent heavily on match up, and needs a lot of support from teammates to wear down/ lure its checks before it can start doing work. I do think B is a little bit harsh, but certainly nothing above B+ would be appropriate. I suppose I should bold that huh.

---> B+

Its checks are not only common, but also hard to wear down. Toxapex is a full on stop to it, and it's got recover, regenerator, and often black sludge to shake off the minimal damage that lopunny can throw at it. It can just get up toxic spikes, fish for scald burns or do whatever it wants. Additionally, max def bold Clef has seen a whole lot of use, and that thing doesn't care about lop at all. It can get rocks up, t-wave it if it's carrying it, or just straight up moonblast it. And don't even get me started on Defensive Mew, which is a full out counter to lopunny and one of the single most common and viable mons in the meta rn who can chunk it with psychic, burn it, get rocks up/ defog away their own rocks. Those three are certainly the most common and hard counters to lopunny, but there's plenty more good answers to it, or at least things that are definitely hindrances - skarm counters it, zapdos does if no rocks are up, mega venusaur and amoongus both do as well (More common in tournament matches than ladder, but definitely still relevant threats), tang is sort of annoying, and can eat a hit or two and heal up with giga drain if it's AV (If it's phys def it hard counters), celesteela forces mind games because HJK is a really close 2HKO, but with some protect shenanigans you can force lop to take damage and heal up with lefties/ leech seed, magearna can stomach a hit and OHKO in return... You guys get the idea.

HOWEVER, I do think that there are lots of mons that synergize extraordinarily well. Ash-Greninja helps out a lot, SD Bulu with fightinium Z, along with stuff like spikes support all go a long way with lop. It absolutely cleans up vs offense teams, it is a really nice cleaner, and a lot of its checks can be trapped (Toxapex is trapped by duggy, Mew can kinda sorta be pursuit trapped) or lured sorta easily by some common mons that don't really like force you into using sets that are too too unorthodox.

Fortunately, it still has ridiculous speed unboosted, and almost perfect coverage. I definitely think its better than some of the B threats, such as like niheligo and non-mega zam, and even just as good (if not better) than stuff like fini, torn-t, and alolan marowak. It's by no means a perfect pokemon who destroys the majority of the meta right now, but that's why it wouldn't be like A+ or anything. I think B+ is a fine rank for it. People tend to point out a mons flaws and never talk about their strong suits to justify their sitting in a rank, but I mean not every mon is absolutely perfect or uncounterable or else they wouldn't be OU. Keep in mind that lop doesn't have a hard time being brought in, can provide a very strong STAB fake out, power-up punch can even be used to surpass some of it's would be checks like tang. It forces a whole lot of switches, and the fact that it can absolutely destroy the vast majority of offensive threats has gotta be worth something. Just Fake Out + Return/ High Jump Kick can kill Zard Y, Both Ash-Gren and Protean Gren, Zygarde (If ice punch), Tapu koko, Mega Mawile, and a bunch more. It outspeeds a +1 Mega T-tar and takes that out, gets the 2HKO on stuff like tapu Bulu, volcarona, Lele, Fini, and a crap ton more I can't even go into rn. Bottom line is it's totally still good, but very match up dependent/ requires a little help from teammates to wear down or beat its checks. ATM its checks just happen to be very common, so that's really its problems. I think B+ is a good rank for it, and I hope you guys do too. This is just what I've thought from the last few days of spamming mega lop teams on the ladder and watching high level play. Let me know what you guys think.

Edit: lol sniped, keeping this up though cause we kinda made different points

 

[Deleted User 400951]

WPeople tend to point out a mons flaws and never talk about their strong suits to justify their sitting in a rank, but I mean not every mon is absolutely perfect or uncounterable or else they wouldn't be OU. Keep in mind that lop doesn't have a hard time being brought in, can provide a very strong STAB fake out, power-up punch can even be used to surpass some of it's would be checks like tang.

Edit: lol sniped, keeping this up though cause we kinda made different points

Um, easy to bring it? lol no. It has a god awful defensive typing, both pre and post mega. 65/84/96 is not good pre mega, and post mega it barely improves. As said above in earlier posts, carrying PuP is hard with needing Ice Punch and and Fake Out. As for Fake Out... I won't deny that it's good. It's not as good as last gen with Psychic Terrain but it is good. However, you just need ice punch so much now that you must choose between Fake Out and actually winning against offense or PuP and actually having any power. It's just not a great mon rn. I say B.

It gets its Speed turn 1 now so Fake Out is no longer mandated, giving it a bit more freedom to run Power-Up Punch.

As has been said lol Fake out is still the best move to be a pain in the ass to offense. It chooses between it or Pup, which lets it hold up against bulky foes.

 

[Scribble]

As has been said lol Fake out is still the best move to be a pain in the ass to offense. It chooses between it or Pup, which lets it hold up against bulky foes.

Not entirely sure why you quoted me in your post and responded with this. I'm not clear on what your response is even trying to say. Yeah...it has been said before. Yeah...Fake Out is still good and is probably the best option. All I said was it has a bit more freedom than last gen to run a different move because of the mechanics change. I never argued against any of this but you responded as if I did. It's possible I misinterpreted you, but I genuinely missed the meaning of this response.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

disagree

mew is everywhere and extremely easy to fit on teams, and medi fails to break it (even in terrain iirc). meanwhile even with decently strong priority in fake out (bullet punch isn't good), it just falls flat against offensive teams and gets 1-2 kills at most.

compare to zard y in a: although it needs hazard removal, zard y has no good consistent switchins outside of chansey and toxapex, of which chansey is only good on stall and both are trappable by dug (one of zard y's best teammates). additionally it can give rain teams a huge headache, like if it comes in on peli (or carries sunny day, which is an option) then suddenly the rain user has to predict or lose a mon. medi is not capable of anything like this.

I don't completely agree that Mew fails to break it. It is a very hard check and I'll agree to that but here's a couple of calcs

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If it's Jolly you're correct but I'm pretty sure Mega-Medicham is shown to be on Sticky Web teams and if Sticky Web is up you still outspeed everything anyway except for Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Greninja whether you're Adament or Jolly.

 

[AHappyCactus]

Um, easy to bring it? lol no. It has a god awful defensive typing, both pre and post mega. 65/84/96 is not good pre mega, and post mega it barely improves. As said above in earlier posts, carrying PuP is hard with needing Ice Punch and and Fake Out. As for Fake Out... I won't deny that it's good. It's not as good as last gen with Psychic Terrain but it is good. However, you just need ice punch so much now that you must choose between Fake Out and actually winning against offense or PuP and actually having any power. It's just not a great mon rn. I say B.



As has been said lol Fake out is still the best move to be a pain in the ass to offense. It chooses between it or Pup, which lets it hold up against bulky foes.

Oh no I didn't mean you can like switch it in easily, I more meant it can come in on a lot - like after a volt switch or a u turn or a sac or something like that, it comes in on a lot, not like directly switches in. Poor phrasing on my part I suppose my bad guys

 

[paoisd]

disagree

mew is everywhere and extremely easy to fit on teams, and medi fails to break it (even in terrain iirc). meanwhile even with decently strong priority in fake out (bullet punch isn't good), it just falls flat against offensive teams and gets 1-2 kills at most.

compare to zard y in a: although it needs hazard removal, zard y has no good consistent switchins outside of chansey and toxapex, of which chansey is only good on stall and both are trappable by dug (one of zard y's best teammates). additionally it can give rain teams a huge headache, like if it comes in on peli (or carries sunny day, which is an option) then suddenly the rain user has to predict or lose a mon. medi is not capable of anything like this.

You only named one check to medicham and that is why i think it is so good. because there is pretty much only one check so with a teammate like gengar or ash gren it can beat mew and then mecicham can go in. mew is a great pokemon but its not that hard to play around. also the fact that spikes are so popular now and easy to fit on teams only helps medicham because with spikes support there is pretty much no checks especially in electric terrain

 

[41gguy]

Imo I think the newest Megas are really good. I didn't think about their bad matchups until this post, but I've seen them do pretty good things so far.

Nominating:

Mega-Gardevoir ---> A-

Reason: Psychic Terrain Support really really really helps it. With it on, it scores OHKOs on Toxapex with Psyshock, and now has mixed nuking attacks between Hyper Voice (now nerfed) and Psychic Terrain-Boosted Psyshock. In addition, it's coverage moves are more relevant than ever, has it no longer has to carry shadow ball for Megagross or anything like it.

Hidden Power Fire is perfect for Scizor, and bottle caps make the speed IV drop irrelevant. Thunderbolt scores a 2HKO on even Specially Defensive Celesteela with rocks, and obvious 2hko on physical defensive ones. See for yourself.
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 168-198 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 240-284 (68.1 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And of course Focus blast on anything not covered here. Can this pokemon do any wrong???
The only problems with it is that it loses to virtually all magearna, and is not excellent against hyper offense, and it needs Psychic Terrain for offensive and defensive reasons. Nonetheless it is a terror against defensive teams for the afformentioned reasons.

 

[IQMathlete]

Imo I think the newest Megas are really good. I didn't think about their bad matchups until this post, but I've seen them do pretty good things so far.

Nominating:

Mega-Gardevoir ---> A-

Reason: Psychic Terrain Support really really really helps it. With it on, it scores OHKOs on Toxapex with Psyshock, and now has mixed nuking attacks between Hyper Voice (now nerfed) and Psychic Terrain-Boosted Psyshock. In addition, it's coverage moves are more relevant than ever, has it no longer has to carry shadow ball for Megagross or anything like it.

Hidden Power Fire is perfect for Scizor, and bottle caps make the speed IV drop irrelevant. Thunderbolt scores a 2HKO on even Specially Defensive Celesteela with rocks, and obvious 2hko on physical defensive ones. See for yourself.
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 168-198 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 240-284 (68.1 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And of course Focus blast on anything not covered here. Can this pokemon do any wrong???
The only problems with it is that it loses to virtually all magearna, and is not excellent against hyper offense, and it needs Psychic Terrain for offensive and defensive reasons. Nonetheless it is a terror against defensive teams for the afformentioned reasons.

On mobile so I can't say much, but literally everything stated here bar the Hyper Voice stuff can be applied to Tapu Lele (HP Fire, Tbolt, Terrain boosted Psychic moves). Plus Lele can hold an item, set the terrain, and stallbreak as well as, if not better than Gardevoir thanks to Z-moves/Shed Shell.
Also Gardevoir+Lele is shit and requires too much support.
Personally I think Gardevoir should be ~B- ish but I don't really know, since I haven't played with it much.

 

[41gguy]

On mobile so I can't say much, but literally everything stated here bar the Hyper Voice stuff can be applied to Tapu Lele (HP Fire, Tbolt, Terrain boosted Psychic moves). Plus Lele can hold an item, set the terrain, and stallbreak as well as, if not better than Gardevoir thanks to Z-moves/Shed Shell.
Also Gardevoir+Lele is shit and requires too much support.
Personally I think Gardevoir should be ~B- ish but I don't really know, since I haven't played with it much.

to be honest I realized you're right because they have they exact same learnset lmao. but the differences are:
1 hyper voice
2 higher special attack stat, allowing it to score some better kills on cusp pokemon like Celesteela and Chansey if not running a boosting item
3 marginally higher speed?

idk, given that consideration i guess I'd drop it to B+ but still not lower than a B imo.

 

[Vengeance417]

I think B- is fair for Mega Garde as well. All Garde has over Lele besides stats and ability is Will-o-Wisp, which isn't something I'd find that noteworthy on it, especially since Mega Scizor is rarely seen much. I guess it can also Healing Wish, but Mega Lopunny's a better candidate for the move thanks to a much higher speed stat, as well as something like Scarf Jirachi which doesn't take a mega slot.

 

[Ema Skye]

If you're going to run another Psychic with Lele, I would rather run Zam, who hits harder and is faster.

I really see little reason to run Garde over Lele, other than outspeeding Zygarde and Wisp support. I'd probably put Garde in C+ honestly. In a vaccum it's not bad, but this isn't a vaccum, and it's just outclassed, and feels similar to Mega Gyarados (as a Pokemon that is very similar to one that is much better than it, but has a few minor niches that keep it barely viable).

Leaning A-/B+ for Gallade and Lopunny. Lop obviously struggles against the bulky opponents, but does have some options that can at least deter most of them, such as Encore. Encoring Toxapex will, eventually, allow you to beat it as it can't spam Recover. And locking Mew into SR or Defog accomplishes the same thing. That said, I would also question why you're using Lop to beat bulky offense/stall when you have 5 other options (Gren or Bulu, namely). Gallade is very similar to Medicham and the trade-off is essentially outspeeding the 100s for much more power.

 

[Vengeance417]

It's been said before, but I feel Alolan Ninetales need a rise to C+ rank. Veil offense has been rising in popularity thanks to how well Aurora Veil works with hyper/bulky offense teams. It has a nice speed stat to help it do its job in getting the Aurora Veil up, it has nice support options such as Encore and Hypnosis, and its presence as an auto-weather setter is clutch against Rain, which is also gaining traction in the metagame, especially with Freeze Dry being 4x effective vs Pelipper as well.

 

[41gguy]

If you're going to run another Psychic with Lele, I would rather run Zam, who hits harder and is faster.

I really see little reason to run Garde over Lele, other than outspeeding Zygarde and Wisp support. I'd probably put Garde in C+ honestly. In a vaccum it's not bad, but this isn't a vaccum, and it's just outclassed, and feels similar to Mega Gyarados (as a Pokemon that is very similar to one that is much better than it, but has a few minor niches that keep it barely viable).

There are a couple of reasons we're forgetting, especially because it's been nerfed. The original draw to Garde is Hyper voice, which does ~38% more than Tapu Lele's raw Moonblast. Alone, the power nuking competition will go to a lot of other Pokemon, and Alakazam is indeed stronger. But Mega Gardevoir kills everything beneath it because it has Hyper Voice AND Terrain boosted Psyshock, along with Thunderbolt, something Alakazam doesn't have. Essentially it's as powerful as a Life Orbed Lele with Mixed attacking capabilities without any LO recoil or Choicing drawbacks, just that it does need the psychic terrain to be comparable.

In short, M-Alakazam works well on offensive teams, but Garde is meant to crush defensive teams using Sableye, Toxapex, Chansey, or even Ferro as its core.

 

[Jacks ;-;]

There are a couple of reasons we're forgetting, especially because it's been nerfed. The original draw to Garde is Hyper voice, which does ~38% more than Tapu Lele's raw Moonblast. Alone, the power nuking competition will go to a lot of other Pokemon, and Alakazam is indeed stronger. But Mega Gardevoir kills everything beneath it because it has Hyper Voice AND Terrain boosted Psyshock, along with Thunderbolt, something Alakazam doesn't have. Essentially it's as powerful as a Life Orbed Lele with Mixed attacking capabilities without any LO recoil or Choicing drawbacks, just that it does need the psychic terrain to be comparable.

In short, M-Alakazam works well on offensive teams, but Garde is meant to crush defensive teams using Sableye, Toxapex, Chansey, or even Ferro as its core.

if garde has a terrain boosted psyshock why wouldn't zam have a terrain boosted psychic? I agree with gardevoir going to B-. you aren't always going to have lele right beside you with psychic terrain. that's why I think having zam would be almost always the better choice. if you don't have psychic terrain alakazam will still be doing ok. but in psychic terrain it will be doing great because it can't get hit with priority moves. but garde isn't that fast, so it can still get taken out, here are some calcs.

calcs

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 460-541 (166 - 195.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 246-289 (88.8 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 372-438 (134.2 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir almost gets ko'd by these pokemon. they are all very common, and after 2 layers of spikes (or rocks and 1 spike) they ko gardevoir. The reason I think gardevoir should be around B/B- is because, garde get taken out by pokemon that are almost always seen once in a battle. Alakazam can usually do better than garde with and without psychic terrain(not trying to compare zam with garde, just that they both work well with lele), and its just too slow for it to sweep with psychic terrain.

 

[banks]

I personally think a lot of people are underselling Mega-Garde. The main argument is that it's outclassed by Lele and it gets OHKOd too easily. While some of those statements are true to a certain extent, it's still without a doubt one of the best stallbreakers and compared to Lele, it has a lot more room and tools to deal with stuff like Heatran, Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Tapu Lele just doesn't have the opportunity to run Calm Mind, Substitute and considering 80% of lele's are scarf right now, they kinda serve different roles. Additionally I've been running a lot of unusaul Mega-Garde sets, like Thunderbolt to deal with Celesteela better as well as Future Sight, which is pretty niche but also extremely fun and surprisingly effective

The best Mega-Garde set at the moment is probably sub / calm mind + 3 attacks, enabling to OHKO these fat teams that lele struggles with due to so many 50/50s.

calcs

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 358-422 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 446-526 (117 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 260-308 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 310-366 (44 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 302-356 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 369-435 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Mew: 301-355 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 394-465 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 394-465 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 250-296 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 350-412 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And as advocate user of Mega-Garde, this thing just doesn't auto lose to offence like many people are making it out to be. This thing is an absolute monster on Webs, outrunning all of grounded meta if there are no scarfers (which for some reason is getting more popular in tour play).

While I do acknowledge that there is some new competition for Mega-Garde with Greninja and such, and it still struggles against Scarf or Sp Def Jirachi, I nominate Mega-Gardevoir to ~

-> B+/A-

 

[bluecooljay14]

I personally think a lot of people are underselling Mega-Garde. The main argument is that it's outclassed by Lele and it gets OHKOd too easily. While some of those statements are true to a certain extent, it's still without a doubt one of the best stallbreakers and compared to Lele, it has a lot more room and tools to deal with stuff like Heatran, Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Tapu Lele just doesn't have the opportunity to run Calm Mind, Substitute and considering 80% of lele's are scarf right now, they kinda serve different roles. Additionally I've been running a lot of unusaul Mega-Garde sets, like Thunderbolt to deal with Celesteela better as well as Future Sight, which is pretty niche but also extremely fun and surprisingly effective

The best Mega-Garde set at the moment is probably sub / calm mind + 3 attacks, enabling to OHKO these fat teams that lele struggles with due to so many 50/50s.

calcs

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 358-422 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 446-526 (117 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 260-308 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 310-366 (44 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 302-356 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 369-435 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Mew: 301-355 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 394-465 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 394-465 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 250-296 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 350-412 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And as advocate user of Mega-Garde, this thing just doesn't auto lose to offence like many people are making it out to be. This thing is an absolute monster on Webs, outrunning all of grounded meta if there are no scarfers (which for some reason is getting more popular in tour play).

While I do acknowledge that there is some new competition for Mega-Garde with Greninja and such, and it still struggles against Scarf or Sp Def Jirachi, I nominate Mega-Gardevoir to ~

-> B+/A+

Don't you mean B+/A-?

 

[Divine Retribution]

Comparing Mega Gardevoir to Lele is silly for a number of reasons, not least of which is that one of these things singlehandedly pressures stall, while the other one gets trapped and removed by Dugtrio. I'm not even necessarily saying Tapu Lele is the better stallbreaker (although in my opinion it clearly is) because that's pretty irrelevant. Lele doesn't take up a mega slot and can run a Shed Shell to not lose to Dugtrio, and furthermore A+ Gardevoir is a meme. Even B+ is pushing it, this thing is B at most in my opinion and even then I'd probably never take it over a different stallbreaker that doesn't take up my mega slot and/or isn't deadweight against offense. As far as webs go, there's almost 0 reason to use Gardevoir over Pinsir as far as I'm concerned.

To me it seems Mega Gardevoir is basically just another Mega Manectric. Not bad on paper, but fails to impress in practice and just doesn't stand out in the current metagame.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

As for Mega Gardevoir, B- or even C+ lol. This really doesn't have much over Lele. It doesn't have a good way to break past steels - focus blast isn't reliable and hp fire is weak. base 100 speed is there, yes, but when it's forced to run modest (read the analysis in the making) to have much power over lele, even that begins to falter. wisp isn't a big enough niche at all. as far as IK, it sux.

 

[ThatMangoLife]

Hello All!

I'd like to propose a rise in viability of Porygon-Z. It lies in the B- rank which is far too low, and is a far scarier pokemon than the fellow pokemon in that tier, Alolan Muk, Togekiss, Salamence etc.

The Z-conversion with Adaptability set is extremely good, Ghost and Electric being the best choices. The original normal type helps it out with few weaknesses, hence being able to live most non-boosted hits that aren't fighting. Especially the electric Z-type conversion with thunderbolt and ice beam, which if pulled off is capable of one-shotting (as well as outspeeding) a lot of the OU metagame (particularly doing well against the pokemon in the S, A+ and A tiers). There just aren't many things which can deal with it once set up, often people resorting to choice scarf ground users (however they have to lock into earthquake potentially giving the chance to set up with another sweeper), Tyranitar or Chansey. Even ferrothorn while it can take hits, still takes around 35-40%, and can't do much back. And most common variants of tyranitar can be 2 hit KO'd whether running modest or timid, hence not really being a switch in. Alolan-Marowak is a great switch in unless it has shadow ball (or is ghost Z-conversion).

It's also hard to predict, ghost Z-type conversion being very good and not as weak to choice scarf ground pokemon, and immune to fake out and extremespeed but on the other hand weak to sucker punch (which electric doesn't struggle with as much). Think this set is less preferred these days than the electric due to the rise in tyranitar and strong sucker punch users like Mega Mawile.

Porygon-Z also run can run something like hyper beam or tri-attack last move to get off a powerful breakneckblitz one of the most powerful Z-moves in the game which again kills off most pokemon, thus giving the user a choice whether to get off a powerful attack or convert. Not much covers both options. The extra boost in defense and special defense can be very valuable too allowing it to live an extra hit/priority. Not too mention it has access to recover if you want to increase its' longevity. Even if the Z-move is wasted/already used, Porygon-Z has base 135 special attack, with an excellent moveset and coverage and usable speed. It's just a hard pokemon to deal with, and not easily predicted. B- is far too low for a pokemon which is so easily able to set up and sweep, and I'd propose a drastic rise.

Porygon-Z B->A-

 

[Toshiro46]

Anything that gets trapped by dug isn't much of a stallbreaker. Mega Garde is outclassed, and even if it wasn't it'd be questionable in a meta rife with SpD steels.

Mega Gallade, though... 110 is a fantastic speed tier for a breaker. Koko, the Grens, other Megas, and Dugtrio are the only notable mons that outspeed it. 165 Atk with Swords Dance and actual good STABs (poor kartana) is ridiculous, and it's switch ins at +2 are basically only 252/252+ Unaware Clefable and Mega Sableye. And unlike Medicham it doesn't have to worry about taking 50% due to missing its STAB so that's pretty cool. Moreover, it's actually pretty bulky. 68/95/115 for a mon with 165 Atk and 110 Spe is awesome. Not Megagross levels of unfair bulk, but definitely workable. B+ seems a good start, it's looking like another physical mega that's so much better this generation (hi TTar), but there's always the chance that it's just overhyped.

PZ is mediocre. It only has one chance to sweep due to depending on a Z move, and its Speed tier means it's outsped by basically every scarfed mon. It doesn't have any way to break past its checks like, say, Volcarona does and fails at snowballing. Moreover, it provides little in the way of defensive utility with a shitty typing and mediocre defenses. It's an ok late game cleaner, but definitely not A- or even B+ material lol.

 

[ThatMangoLife]

Anything that gets trapped by dug isn't much of a stallbreaker. Mega Garde is outclassed, and even if it wasn't it'd be questionable in a meta rife with SpD steels.

PZ is mediocre. It only has one chance to sweep due to depending on a Z move, and its Speed tier means it's outsped by basically every scarfed mon. It doesn't have any way to break past its checks like, say, Volcarona does and fails at snowballing. Moreover, it provides little in the way of defensive utility with a shitty typing and mediocre defenses. It's an ok late game cleaner, but definitely not A- or even B+ material lol.

I don't think PZ is the level of Volcarona, but Volcarona is A+. I think Volcarona and Magearna are the only things that compare to Porygon-z in terms of special sweepers and they are A+ and S respectively. And I don't think PZ is while worse than them, several tiers below.

A lot of choice scarf users can outspeed, but they don't OHKO. Choice Scarf Keldeo does a max of 57.8% with hydro pump (and of course is OHKOd by Porygon-z). Tapu Lele does a max of 71.3% in psychic terrain, and Porygon-Z kills (has to be modest to guarantee, but modest is the best nature IMO for it). Choice scarf ground users do well, but they won't OHKO the ghost variant (which again will likely OHKO in return). And once your choice scarf user is down, it becomes very hard to stop. And of course you might have to sack a pokemon to bring in the choice scarf ground landorus/garchomp in safely as it packs ice beam.

Porygon-z really has one solid counter at that's Chansey, and even then takes over 30% damage. But that's typical of every special sweeper pretty much. Volcarona while better, generally has more checks than Porygon-z, bulky water, dragon, fire types, hindered by stealth rock, less powerful than Porygon-z after intial boost. And the fact it gets both special and physical boosts, help it live priority and scarfed hits better.

Porygon-Z is a different type of pokemon, it's more a late game sweeper, and applies pressure on the opponent to keep the one or two checks alive because of it. It's use often forces the opponent to sack at least one pokemon to deal with it which really isn't bad, it usually results in a net win. And normal is a decent typing it's not terrible as it gives porygon the option of a strong z-breakneck blitz and easier type to convert on. Yes something like steel would be better but that's why Magearna is S+, it's better than most typings for special sweepers, Volc's Bug/fire is worse defensive typing. Part of the reason why chansey is so good, as it's weak to just one typing. And while normal isn't great offensive typing, Porygon-Z doesn't exactly stay like that after conversion.

I don't think any of the pokemon in its' own tier for sure, or B tier can compare with the sweeping potential that this pokemon has. And what's more this is a niche, no other pokemon is able to sweep in this way. Even B+ seems to low, those pokemon either require greater support to function IMO and OHKO far fewer pokemon than Porygon-Z does after intial boost and more readily countered. B- is just too low, I think Porygon-Z in the past has been not utilized to it's fullest, most felt it was a one trick pony with Ghost z-type conversion+ 3 attacks. The electric z-type conversion is better and more suited to the metagame and has created the issue where now the opponent has to predict Ghost, electric, or the Z-break neck blitz instead of conversion. The ghost conversion while worse than the electric now IMO will continue to be used because lack of ghost special sweepers, and not much that resists ghost (only competition there is gengar). A pokemon with so many effective options is just far too strong for its' present tier.