Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Toshiro46]

Jirachi is fine at B+ imo. Scarf is still a major cheese factor and is a niche Jirachi has all to itself in OU.

Also, what? Duggy still shreds Alolawak with EQ. Another thing- how does Fairium Z Magearna do anything to Alolawak in the first place? And Mega Ttar runs Stone Edge. How does that not blow Alolawak away?

Scarf is a cheese factor and that's about it lol. Iron Head, an 80 BP move and the go to for Jirachi, is super weak coming off a base 100 jolly attack. There's far better scarfers available.

Alowak is a ghost type and thus not trapped by dug, and without Pursuit it's not trapped by TTar either. So while it has to switch out if TTar comes in, it's not automatically dead and can be used later on.

 

[FatBagel]

I'd support a Jirachi drop. It's best as a defensive check to psychic spam back when Zam/Lele teams were all the rage, but now Psychic spam has settled down. It's still a great Lele and Magearna check, though Magearna can run Never-Ending Nightmare, but the omnipresence of Zard-Y/Dugtrio teams make Jirachi deadweight in those match-ups.

Bisharp is suffering as Sticky Webs is becoming weaker. B seems fine for it as it can still be a massive threat and does put a lot of pressure on bulky teams or those who rely on Lando-t.

I agree Hoopa-U should drop. Too slow in current scarf metagame and isn't great against stall either as it dies to Dugtrio due to it's pitiful physical bulk.

Disagree with Mawile drop. Aurora Veil offense is still incredibly powerful and if anything, becoming more viable, and Mawile is one of the best abusers behind a veil. It still has problems with Zygarde and Lando but who doesn't lol. Main argument behind a Mawile drop has to be Zard-Y which is just annihilating shit atm

Zard-Y has to be A+. It's incredible. Given that defog is much easier nowadays, it has a much better time of coming in, and the fact that every team packs at least one steel means it has opportunities. Fire is such a powerful typing right now, as grass/steel/fairy types seem to dominate the meta, and the few things that do stop Zard are either a. removed by Groundium Duggy (Chansey, Heatran, Toxapex) or worn down relatively easily. Even against offense, it can run gimmicky Flame Charge sets or something to clean up.

Mega Alakazam should drop. Can't touch Magearna which is omnipresent. Useless against aurora veil offense and needs taunt to touch stall, but then Sableye comes in for free. Ttar is everywhere.

I actually think Heracross-Mega should drop. I haven't seen one do anything in a while, plus Mew/Fini are running speed nowadays to make it harder for him. It's power is still undeniable, and could be a threat behind Veil, but Mawile is better for this due to priority, better defensive typing, ice/fire/electric coverage as well as having fairy/steel stabs rather than bug.

Suicune should go to B+ too. VinCune is really powerful atm as showcased by plenty of Pokeaim teams. Vincune beats most of it's traditional stops and finds plenty of opportunities to get in against most Greninja sets, Landorus, Keldeo etc. Plenty of competition for bulky water type keeps it B+, but it's still really good.

Speaking of Aurora Veil offense, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but should Alolan-Ninetales not be given a rise given how intergral it is to the archetype right now? It's at least a C+ if not higher.

That oughta cover some of my ramblings. This wall of text does come with the disclaimer that I'm pretty bad though

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well, after a long absence, I think it is time for me to rejoin the discussion. I am going to be a bit gutsy starting off with a nomination of my own.

Pidgeot-Mega C -> C+

While I do not have any current results for it in top tier ladder, using this Pokemon in around the 1600s has felt wonderful. So, why is this Pokemon good enough to move up?

1. Damage Output: While Pidgeot doesn't end lives like Hoopa-U or a similar wallbreaker can, it can gradually put dents in most teams. Very few Pokemon can take Hurricane into Heat Wave well, and the ones that can have definite counterplay both in Teambuilding and during the game (Heatran, one of the few Pokemon who can take the Pidgeot's attacks, has major counters and can be answered with other team members). No Landorus-T set can take two Hurricanes, and no fast Magearna set can take a Hurricane into Heat Wave. AV Magearna can take its hits well, but even it can struggle with Pidgeot for reasons I will cover later.

2. Resistance to Setup: Pidgeot will not give the opponent an opportunity to setup with most of the meta. A setup Pokemon cannot switch into Pidgeot and expect to get out unscathed. Even something like Autotomize Celeteela will be damaged to the point that it can easily be revenged or even dealt with by another team member without loss. Volcarona has no chance setting up in front of Pidgeot, nor can Pinsir, Scizor, Gallade, Bisharp, Kartana, Mawile, and more. To Pokemon like Tyranitar, you can see what the opponent plans to do (generally speaking) by U-Turning into a counter or a check.

3. Crippling Counters: Normally when a counter is presented, a Pokemon is forced to switch without any significant damage being done. The same cannot be said of Pidgeot. Hurricane has the Scald affect; even if the opposing Pokemon can take the damage itself well, there is always a chance for the opponent to become confused. While confusion is not as consistent as a Burn, it can be extremely powerful. Confusion can prevent a counter from healing itself, performing as a cleric, removing hazards, or merely stall an extra turn for an answer to be brought in on it. Of course none of this is guaranteed, but when playing with this Pokemon a decent amount, these affects will occur, and they will occasionally be powerful enough to maintain or completely swing momentum in your favor.

4. Consistency: Pidgeot takes the very powerful yet horribly inconsistent move, Hurricane, and makes it perfectly accurate. You will always get the damage of Hurricane out thanks to this accuracy buff and Pidgeot's general speed. Speaking of speed, Pidgeot's is good. It is not quite as fast as Greninja, but it is not a slow Pokemon by any means. Of all the Pokemon in the S/A tier, only 4, Greninja, Greninja-Ash, Tapu Koko, and Mega Alakazam, are able to outspeed Pidgeot's 121 Speed without scarfs or speed buffs. If you include the B tier, only 1 more is added with Weavile joining the group. While Pokemon like Mega Swampert in the rain can outspeed it, Pidgeot still outruns the catalyst to this speed (Pelipper), ensuring that damage will be done. Some scarfers are also outsped by Pidgeot, such as Magnezone and Tyranitar. Having good and reliable damage output it extremely useful, and is more representative of a higher ranking Pokemon.

5. Survivability: While Pidgeot is not a tank, it has been blessed this generation by the appearance of passive Pokemon, such as Toxapex. While Pidgeot may not be able to destroy Pokemon such as these (though such an occurrence is not impossible, for reason 3), it can Roost up and U-Turn out on them for little retribution from the opponent.

While I don't think Mega Pidgeot is good enough to move up too far, it is certainly better than the likes of Hydreigon, Kyurem, and even C+ Pokemon like Cofagrigus and Beedrill. Is there a reason why Pidgeot is just not worthy of moving up a rank, or should the big bird move up a bit? I personally think that Pidgeot could be B-, but I can understand that such a jump is too much and that a small increase would be best.

So, what is your opinion on this?

 

[Divine Retribution]

Don't really agree with C+ Pidgeot. I mean, it's by no means a bad Pokemon, I like it and it's quite fun to use, but it has all of about one viable set, it fares poorly against metagame staples such as Greninja, Koko, and Heatran, it takes up the mega slot, and it's largely outclassed by Tornadus-T.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Don't really agree with C+ Pidgeot. I mean, it's by no means a bad Pokemon, I like it and it's quite fun to use, but it has all of about one viable set, it fares poorly against metagame staples such as Greninja, Koko, and Heatran, it takes up the mega slot, and it's largely outclassed by Tornadus-T.

Greninja is only a check to it. A Naive Greninja is guaranteed to be OHKOed after rocks, is a very favorable roll b4, and even non-Naive Gren doesn't like it.

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 273-322 (95.7 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 273-322 (95.7 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 246-289 (86.3 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 246-289 (86.3 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Of course a Pokemon like Greninja and Koko would force it out, but getting in is the problem. Not many Pokemon want to eat a Hurricane, and even fewer have the ability to pivot into Gren/Koko. If you want to bring Koko hard in, that is perfectly fine with Pidgeot, since it still takes a large chunk of un-recoverable damage.

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%)

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 135-159 (48 - 56.5%) NOTE: You probably won't hit Koko with this, since it is almost always a better move to go for Hurricane.

Your point against Heatran is absolutely valid, but having 1 counter that is also dealt with by other metagame staples should not restrict a Pokemon from moving to just C+ rank.

While it does take up a Mega, I believe it is a mega well used. It is ABSOLUTELY not outclassed by Torn-T right now. Torn-T needs a Life Orb to outdamage Pidgeot, and it is very susceptible to Knock Off, a weakness that Pidgeot does not share. But the absolute most important factor is No Guard. Torn-T WILL miss. And it will be a decent amount of the time on average. Torn-T will only land its Hurricane slightly more than 2/3rds of the time, missing out on a massive amount of damage on average that Pidgeot simply won't have to.

When used 100 times, assuming perfect representation (70% will mean it hits 70 times and misses 30), Pidgeot will deal 16,000 - 19,000 damage (when used on a Pokemon who is bulky and neutral to Flying [Mew was used for this damage output]), while LO Torn-T will deal 12,670 - 14,980 damage; the high end of Torn-T given a representative sample size of 100 will only be 78.84% the high end of Pidgeot, while the low end will be 79.18% the low end of Pidgeot. Even if Tornadus hit all of its Hurricanes, it high end would only deal 112.63% the damage that Pidgeot's high end would deal. So a single high roll Pidgeot Hurricane will deal 88.78% the damage of a high roll Tornadus-T Hurricane.

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 160-190 (39.9 - 47.3%)

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 181-214 (45.1 - 53.3%)

If you want to compare the damage output of Assault Vest Tornadus-T and Pidgeot, it gets even worse. In addition to this, missing Hurricanes also entails missing Confusions. If you miss 30 out of 100 Hurricanes, you essentially also miss 9 Confusions. While Regenerator is useful and gives Tornadus-T added survivability, the vastly more consistent performance of Pidgeot makes it a much more appealing Pokemon in my eyes.

This said the Mega usage and lack of Regenerator are disadvantages that it has to face compared with Torn, but they don't outright make Torn a complete subsistute. Tornadus is also sitting at B+ rank, a full tier below what I proposed for Pidgeot.

 

[paoisd]

I would like to add on a reason why I think mega pidgeot should have a raise as well. mega pidgeot also can use roost for sustainability or hidden power ground which can make it potentially beat heatran or at least do heavy damage to something considered a "counter". also mega pidgeot has a stall breaking set making it not dead weight against stall

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I would like to add on a reason why I think mega pidgeot should have a raise as well. mega pidgeot also can use roost for sustainability or hidden power ground which can make it potentially beat heatran or at least do heavy damage to something considered a "counter". also mega pidgeot has a stall breaking set making it not dead weight against stall

I am a huge Pidgeot advocate, but pick your poison. The stallbreaker set doesn't do much against most teams, while the normal set doesn't do much against stall. I don't really think that is a good argument for its raise, especially when Togekiss exists.

 

[Scribble]

Got a quick nomination

B -> B-/C+

So Webs used to be a pretty real threat in the meta a few weeks back but it's died down quite a bit imo. They're still good in certain match ups, but it's far too inconsistent. Hazard control is a lot better now with Mew everywhere. Mew also threatens Bisharp with Will-o-Wisp so it can Defog vs Webs safer than a mon like Tapu Fini. Mega Lopunny is also released now and it's pretty much the anti-Webs mon. Beats Smeargle lead, beats Mimikyu through Disguise, and nothing on Webs likes switching in on it. Webs has also seen 2 uses in WCOP so far (Basing that off Smeargle's and Shuckle's usage stats, did not look at every replay lol) and it lost both matches. The lack of usage and results demonstrates its inconsistency as a playstyle in the current meta which has developed against webs. It's heavily match up reliant, and B is too high for Smeargle whose only niche is on webs.

Yeah this was just a blurb cause I don't think it's that surprising of a nom and there isn't much to elaborate on, but if it was still too long then the main reasons are:
-More hazard control
-Mega Lopunny
-Inconsistent
-Lack of usage
-Lack of results

 

[mushamu]

Mega Medicham A- --> A

I think Mega Medicham deserves at least an A ranking because of its immediate power. Gengar has been dropping in Viability, and Medicham no longer needs to predict when to click HJK as much anymore. While Mew does check it, Mew is very easy to play around. Fake out allows it to take care of smeargle on webs.Tapu Koko supports Medicham' Tpunch, so that it no longer has to predict protect on Celesteela. Whenever a faster threat emerges, you could go back to Toxapex or something and double back in to keep on clicking HJK. I feel like this thing is just really hard to switch into and gets a KO whenever you bring it in safely. One of the best Megas in the current metagame IMO.

 

[LucarioMega]

Got a quick nomination

B -> B-/C+

So Webs used to be a pretty real threat in the meta a few weeks back but it's died down quite a bit imo. They're still good in certain match ups, but it's far too inconsistent. Hazard control is a lot better now with Mew everywhere. Mew also threatens Bisharp with Will-o-Wisp so it can Defog vs Webs safer than a mon like Tapu Fini. Mega Lopunny is also released now and it's pretty much the anti-Webs mon. Beats Smeargle lead, beats Mimikyu through Disguise, and nothing on Webs likes switching in on it. Webs has also seen 2 uses in WCOP so far (Basing that off Smeargle's and Shuckle's usage stats, did not look at every replay lol) and it lost both matches. The lack of usage and results demonstrates its inconsistency as a playstyle in the current meta which has developed against webs. It's heavily match up reliant, and B is too high for Smeargle whose only niche is on webs.

Yeah this was just a blurb cause I don't think it's that surprising of a nom and there isn't much to elaborate on, but if it was still too long then the main reasons are:
-More hazard control
-Mega Lopunny
-Inconsistent
-Lack of usage
-Lack of results

Webs has always been match up dependant. The thing is that if you have a good match up, you win 90% of the time and that alone is reason enough for being a real threat. Mew is better defogger than Fini against Webs but is by no means "good". Bisharp can still beat it 1 on 1 and if you predict the switch for the Wisp you cant Defog in front of him or you will have a death mon if he SD, wich Bisharp should do 100% against Mew cause the latter cant Taunt first, so Webs are on the field and Mimi/Pinsir can still sweep.

Mega Lopu is actually a good anti Webs/Smeargle mon but Pinsir pressure the hell out of it. Lopu cant OHKO with any move (neither with Fake Out + Return) and Pinsir has Quick Attack/Return, so it has to switch which would bring Smeargle back.

I cant argue against lack of usage, that just a fact, but 2 uses in WCOP is not enought for measuring (For me).

Anyway, Webs are still good, maybe not as good as before, but still a threat to consider on team building and if you have a good matchup you would win. Smeargle, being the face of it should stay B, maybe B-, but not C+.

 

[Colonel M]

I would like to retract my nomination to drop Alolan-Marowak.

I realize this may sound hasty, but Fire-types have definitely proven to be fairly dominant in the current tier. Heatran alone is terrifying to face and Zard Y is becoming much better with the addition of its partners. I think Lightningrod Alolan-Marowak is back in business again considering that it absolutely throttles some builds and some mons (Ice Beam Mew, average Shift Gear Mageanra) and just does a number to teams that lack bulky Landorus-T.

I apologize for not adding much else, I may re-visit at least Mega Gallade. Haven't had any good team ideas with Mega Lopunny nor Mega Gardevoir as of yet, though I think I may revisit some of my Mega Gallade teams because holy shit Heatran is a monster.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Now for the discussion points:
Mega Zam to B+ - Agree. Sadly, I have to say yes here. It can't break through the rising fat steels like AV Magearna. It also has to risk Focus Blast to beat T-Tar.
Clefable to A - Agree. A staple on stall teams that need Unaware walling or just a good fairy. Outside of stall it's still splashable with its great abilities, good enough special bulk to check rising special attacks and the ability to consistently get Stealth Rock up against most removers (though Mew is troubling).
Gengar to B+ - Agree. I mean, it really can't beat the steels or T-tar either. It in fact has a worse time against them because it tends to be choiced and thus gives mega t-tar free set up. The LO set is just worn down too easily.
Mega Scizor to B+ - Disagree. This is still a splashable mega that reliably removes hazards and blanket checks stuff, most notably the rising Bulu. Outside of Zard Y's rise I don't see why this would fall.
Magnezone to B+ - Agree. It can't trap Magearna or Skarmory, which really just hurts. Duggy does the job of trapping better because it can trap Magearna at least.

Non-point noms:
Charizard Y to A+ - On the fence but leaning towards yes. Yes, this completely breaks the meta, but I just have trouble seeing it in A+. There's enough to at least check it, like Heatran and Fini, and while it does have good coverage to beat these, Focus Blast has annoying accuracy and Solar Beam can be downright useless against Rain. In addition, there are plenty of the 100+ scarf mons that carry Stone Edge. I can genuinely see it rising though because with Duggy it truly punishes just about everything else - and I mean everything else. Most teams also tend to have hazard control regardless nowadays so the need for it isn't too troubling.
Smeargle to B- - Agree. Webs is falling off right now with Mega Lopunny and especially Mew. and Smeargle only fits on webs.
Bisharp to B - Agree. Also only fits on webs. Outside of webs it's a defog punisher but is slow and loses to many common threats.
Jirachi to B - Agree. The Wish set is no good, scarf is no good, Zard Y and Duggy are rising.
Alowak to B - Disagree. Basically what Colonel M said.
Zapdos to A - Agree. Also what Colonel M said but T-tar is really really rising. I still think it's worthy of A though because it's a staple on the ever-rising Double Defog stall and the Agility set is proving itself to be a great sweeper.
Mega Gallade to B+ - This is a pretty good mega that actually can compete with Medicham this gen because it beats Mew, it's a lot faster and it has actually usable bulk.
A nom of my own here - Ash Greninja to S. This monster has proven itself to be the premier cleaner of the meta. It fits perfectly on rain and even better with Specs Pelipper. The two form a powerful core that notably beats most of the metagame. As a hazard setter, it notably beats Mew even pre-transformation:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 290-344 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(290, 294, 300, 302, 306, 308, 312, 314, 318, 324, 326, 330, 332, 336, 338, 344)
Mew can't just switch in and in fact provides a good mon to transform against. Webs declining is also a benefit because Ash Gren didn't do too well against it. Overall, Ash Gren is proving itself to be better than Zygarde, Volcarona and the likes, and fits in just fine with Magearna and Lando T to me.
On a final note, I would like to nominate Tyranitar to A, and Mega Tyranitar maybe as well. The Choice Band set has truly made a strong splash in the meta with being able to pursuit trap psychics like Lele and Mega Zam and ghosts like Gengar. T-tar is one of the biggest reasons these are falling off right now. It also beats Zapdos, which is rising thanks to Double Defog stall. Said DD stall doesnt't take T-tar's hits too well either. T-tar also doesn't let in Zard Y with its powerful Stone Edge, and boosted Mega t-tar just beats it. Heatran doesn't come in for free and loses if there's Earthquake. The Steels don't like Mega T-tar's fire punch or earthquake either. T-tar also harasses rain due to changing the weather and beating non-specs Pelipper 1v1 if it's in the sand. Mega T-tar just straight up beats it. The fighting megas also aren't as good as last gen - Mega Medi really has fallen off and Mega Lopunny even more so. Overall, t-tar is a rising star that is reacting well to new trends and influencing many of them thus deserves a rise.

 

[paoisd]

i would like to nominate charizard y to a+
this thing has absolutely no switch ins whatsoever and i know that is common but also having access to dugtrio and ttar to trap, as well as solar beam, focus blast, fire blast, sun, and hiddenp ower ice with recovery in roost is insane.


I would also like to nominate ash greninja to s
Ash greninja is one of the best sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier, as well as being able to set up spikes to enable itself to sweep. water shuriken is also amazing as it can help check volcarona and have good priority in general as well

 

[Yahooboo]

i would like to nominate charizard y to a+
this thing has absolutely no switch ins whatsoever and i know that is common but also having access to dugtrio and ttar to trap, as well as solar beam, focus blast, fire blast, sun, and hiddenp ower ice with recovery in roost is insane.


I would also like to nominate ash greninja to
Ash greninja is one of the best sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier, as well as being able to set up spikes to enable itself to sweep. water shuriken is also amazing as it can help check volcarona and have good priority in general as well

why is there no letter for what you're nomming ash gren to?

 

[Toshiro46]

I love Ash-Gren as much as the next person, but this mon is so damn one dimensional. When was the last time you saw a serious player use anything on it besides Specs, Hydro, Dark Pulse, Water Shuriken, and (filler fourth move). I can't in good faith advocate for it to go to S when it only has the one notable set to speak of.

 

[Gary]

A Pokemon doesn't have to be extremely versatile to be S rank. It usually just tends to be that way because most of the time a Pokemon's versatility can push it to that rank among its other factors. However, if a Pokemon is able to run one set that despite its predictability is still extremely effective enough to a point where it heavily impacts the metagame and has overwhelming success despite being prepared for, it can definitely still be S rank. There have been Pokemon in past gens that were S rank despite being pretty linear.

 

[volx757]

i would like to nominate charizard y to a+
this thing has absolutely no switch ins whatsoever and i know that is common but also having access to dugtrio and ttar to trap, as well as solar beam, focus blast, fire blast, sun, and hiddenp ower ice with recovery in roost is insane.


I would also like to nominate ash greninja to
Ash greninja is one of the best sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier, as well as being able to set up spikes to enable itself to sweep. water shuriken is also amazing as it can help check volcarona and have good priority in general as well

Not opposed to char-y rising, but it does have switchins. Chansey, toxapex, and garchomp are 3 common mons that can switch in (garchomp switches in once and scares it out w threat of SE ohko or outrage).

On the note of greninja to S, i think if Ash-gren goes S, protean has to go with it. If the threat of protean didn't exist, there would be multiple common switchins to gren before you even know the set. Ash ninja is a linear mon, and no-doubt a terrifying sweeper, especially late game, but a mon that's walled by common stuff like chansey and fini and is most often choice-locked does not in and off itself make an S-rank poke. Late game water shuriken is no scarier than late game mmaw's sucker punch. If it comes to that scenario, yeah you probly lost, but there is common, viable counterplay to prevent getting there in the first place.

 

[paoisd]

Not opposed to char-y rising, but it does have switchins. Chansey, toxapex, and garchomp are 3 common mons that can switch in (garchomp switches in once and scares it out w threat of SE ohko or outrage).

On the note of greninja to S, i think if Ash-gren goes S, protean has to go with it. If the threat of protean didn't exist, there would be multiple common switchins to gren before you even know the set. Ash ninja is a linear mon, and no-doubt a terrifying sweeper, especially late game, but a mon that's walled by common stuff like chansey and fini and is most often choice-locked does not in and off itself make an S-rank poke. Late game water shuriken is no scarier than late game mmaw's sucker punch. If it comes to that scenario, yeah you probly lost, but there is common, viable counterplay to prevent getting there in the first place.

about charizard, there is switches but if you have focus blast or groundium z dugtrio which are both extremely popular, it can get rid of chansey. solar beam and dugtrio also get rid of toxapex and if it is running hp ice it gets rid of garchomp as well. it can potentially have switch ins but they arent always switch ins

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

about charizard, there is switches but if you have focus blast or groundium z dugtrio which are both extremely popular, it can get rid of chansey. solar beam and dugtrio also get rid of toxapex and if it is running hp ice it gets rid of garchomp as well. it can potentially have switch ins but they arent always switch ins

It is true that Zard-Y's switch ins get trapped by Dugtrio, but I have no idea why you think it can break through Chansey and Toxapex on its own:

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 192-228 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 81.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

[paoisd]

It is true that Zard-Y's switch ins get trapped by Dugtrio, but I have no idea why you think it can break through Chansey and Toxapex on its own:

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 192-228 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 81.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

ok i was wrong then sorry but the point still stands

 

[Toshiro46]

ok i was wrong then sorry but the point still stands

Does it though?

Chansey and Toxapex are always switch ins to CharY no matter what moves it's running. So your point that its switch-ins aren't always switch-ins is incorrect. Dug can take care of both, yes, but that isn't always a sure thing because it can't just switch into either of them blindly.

Sure, mons don't necessarily have to be versatile to go to S, but Ash Ninja isn't that mon. It's amazing at what it does, but it has very clear drawbacks that hold it back from completely dominating.

1. It has to transform to perform to its greatest potential. No matter how you look at this, it's an issue. Sure, it forces the opponent to play in a way specifically guarding against a KO, but it also gives the user a sense of urgency in trying to secure a KO by it.

2. It's very frail. Often if you're not OHKOing a mon or forcing it out, you're getting KOed. This means it's also hard to switch it in both pre and post transformation.

3. It has consistent defensive counterplay. Pre transformation, there's AV Tangrowth, AV Mag, SpD Celesteela, Amoonguss, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, etc. Post transformation, it has Tapu Fini, Chansey, Mantine, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, and most of the pre transformation mons more shakily. In addition, it has anything that can switch into one of its moves (i.e. Tyranitar into dark pulse) once it's choice locked.

4. It has offensive counterplay. Anything that's faster than it and can stomach a water shuriken is an offensive check, a list including many scarfed mons and megas.

5. Its best (and arguably only good) set is choice locked. This should be self explanatory. Said set also always includes 3 moves and the fourth is always a toss up between spikes, u turn, and (more rarely now) ice beam.

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

A- ---> A

B ---> B+

B ---> B+

B ---> B+

Unranked ---> B+

Unranked ---> B

Unranked ---> B-

C ---> C+

C ---> C+

Unranked ---> C

Unranked ---> C-

Unranked ---> C-

Drops

A- ---> B+

A- ---> B+

A- ---> B+

A- ---> B+

B+ ---> B

B+ ---> B

C+ ---> C-

C- ---> Unranked

• Clefable was risen because of how splashable it is atm. Being one of the best checks to Mew in the tier, as well as a soft check to many other Pokemon such as CB Zygarde, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Lopunny, Gallade, Garchomp, etc. It's one of the best rockers in the tier for its ability to threaten Sableye on stall, as well as access to reliable recovery and durability. Its last moveslot is also decently expendable, being able to run a multitude of moves such as Knock Off, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Calm Mind, etc. It's also standard on most forms of stall.
• Suicune has been seeing a lot of usage in WCOP recently. Vincune is still a very popular set for its ability to PP stall some of its would be checks/counters, such as Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, and Tangrowth. It's able to function as a mid to late game cleaner as well, especially with T-Spikes support, as it can effectively stall everything out and win boosted Scalds. It's also fast enough to outspeed the likes of Timid Heatran so it can Sub up before getting hit with Toxic. It's one of the most annoying Pokemon to face in the tier, and an absolute beast when played correctly.
• Kyurem-B's niche as a wallbreaker has been very useful lately. Both its classic Z Freeze Shock set and Mixed Life Orb have been seeing usage. While the LO set has stronger coverage, the Freeze Shock set can be very scary to play against, considering that a well timed Subzero Slammer can do massive damage to anything as well as nearly OHKOing very fat threats such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Clefable. Its defensive typing is also very useful for checking Tapu Koko, Suicune, and Greninja.
• Kartana has started seeing a surge of relevance again. While its Scarf set is still effective, its SD set has also been making a come back, as it is able to tear apart common cores such as Celepex, Mew, Heatran, Clefable, etc. A lot of balance teams just have difficulty revenge killing it in general.
• My post a few pages ago covers the reasons why Mega Gallade and Mega Lopunny were ranked where they are now, as most of the council share the same thoughts as myself. Mega Gardevoir faces competition from Tapu Lele, but Hyper Voice is still very annoying to switch into if lacking an AV Magearna or SpD Celesteela, and its utility options allow it to punish switch-ins such as Mawile and Scizor with Wisp.
• Hawlucha has started seeing more usage outside of rain teams just as a very scary late-game cleaner that can be very difficult to revenge kill. Its STAB combination is extremely hard to wall if lacking something like Zapdos, and even then, it can carry Stone Edge.
• Alolan Ninetales is standard on Veil HO, and we felt like C was too low for it considering it represents the playstyle.
• Mega Camerupt was ranked because of its surprisingly decent success it has had in WCOP, as well as in general. It was not ranked for its niche on Trick Room (Mega Mawile is better on TR anyway) but how it is an extremely strong breaker that is able to punish some of the common meta trends as well as set up Stealth Rock. Pokemon such as Clefable, Mew, Celesteela, Tangrowth, and Tapu Koko can give Mega Camel free opportunities to come in and spam its basically unwallable STAB combination. It's also one of the few great soft check to Magearna in the tier.
• Shuckle was ranked because it can bypass some of the common counter leads to webs such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Medicham, and Taunt Tapu Koko.
• All of the Pokemon that were dropped were discussed in this thread at some point recently. If you have any questions, just feel free to PM myself or someone else on the council. Mega Beedrill is ass cheeks, as is Mega Sceptile.

As of now, we currently don't have a discussion slate for this update. Feel free to discuss whatever you'd like (be smart about it please).

 

[Night Train Lane]

Why the fuck is Beedrill still ranked get that garbage out of here

Thoughts on Heracross drop? It's annoying to face but reliance on fight stab is really bad rn (see Lopunny) and despite it having things like pin missle and blast there are plenty of mons that pivot in on the CC and scare it out. Things going against it include Clef rising, Gallade getting released which provides more breaking potential due to SD + Knock + STABS, charY + dugtrio teams, veil teams rising which has a few mons that set up on it, Pinsir being more popular and a few other things I'm sure.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Not opposed to char-y rising, but it does have switchins. Chansey, toxapex, and garchomp are 3 common mons that can switch in (garchomp switches in once and scares it out w threat of SE ohko or outrage).

On the note of greninja to S, i think if Ash-gren goes S, protean has to go with it. If the threat of protean didn't exist, there would be multiple common switchins to gren before you even know the set. Ash ninja is a linear mon, and no-doubt a terrifying sweeper, especially late game, but a mon that's walled by common stuff like chansey and fini and is most often choice-locked does not in and off itself make an S-rank poke. Late game water shuriken is no scarier than late game mmaw's sucker punch. If it comes to that scenario, yeah you probly lost, but there is common, viable counterplay to prevent getting there in the first place.

Honestly, I've changed my mind and felt that Protean needs to go to S first. We've seen a rise in the Scarf set, which just brings even more versatility to the table. It itself can run Dark Pulse to threaten Mew and get up Spikes. Now, for some trends that have been benefitting it:
-Zard Y is bopped by the ever-rising Scarf set.
-T-tar is bopped by Hydro Pump
-As I said, Mew becoming the premier hazard remover is really good for Gren.
-Clefable is as always ruined by Gunk Shot
-Double Defog in general just does not have too much to hold vs Greninja other than Chansey
-Rain can't handle the powerful Hydro Pumps and Ice Beams that are shot back at it.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 200-238 (61.9 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pelipper: 218-257 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 169-200 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Admittedly, there is Ferrothorn, so it's not entirely bad news for Rain, but Gren can force out the setter and score major damage on Swampert/Kingdra or force them into using Ferro, which can lead to a bad position and waste rain turns.
While it can't carry all of these moves at once, its presence alone deters the opponent from using these pokemon without being far more cautious than before. With 3 sets, the ability to effectively set up Spikes and responding well to rising threats, it's been time enough for Protean Greninja to go to S.
EDITS WITH OTHER NOMS:

Why the fuck is Beedrill still ranked get that garbage out of here

Thoughts on Heracross drop? It's annoying to face but reliance on fight stab is really bad rn (see Lopunny) and despite it having things like pin missle and blast there are plenty of mons that pivot in on the CC and scare it out. Things going against it include Clef rising, Gallade getting released which provides more breaking potential due to SD + Knock + STABS, charY + dugtrio teams, veil teams rising which has a few mons that set up on it, Pinsir being more popular and a few other things I'm sure.

I agree with this. As a breaker, I've never had more success with it than Medicham and Gallade. Clef isn't a favorable matchup, Zard Y is just a flat out horrible one, and Rain can beat it with Landorus Therian. Fighting STAB isn't SE against most of the steels that are used rn, which also hurts it. Mega Heracross to B+

 

[HC]

Suicune -> A-

Yes I realise this mon just moved up to B+, but there was definitely support for it going even higher. All you have to do is watch Axel10's (I believe) games in WCOP to see how bloody annoying this thing is to face. The crocune set is alright, but grants to many set up opportunities for the likes of Tapu Bulu, or is highly pressured by Tapu Koko/Manetric or other strong special attackers in the tier and even currently trending pokemon like CB Tyranitar.

It's the Vincune set which really allows Suicune to shine. Having the ability to set up subs on so many of the current popular mons, Heatran is generally forgoing Bloom Doom currently, allowing Suicune to set up on Magma Storm/Toxic/Earth Power, not to mention being able to set up on other extremely popular pokemon right now like defensive Celesteela, Mew, Mega Scizor etc. The rise of Duggy/Zard-Y teams over the past month is pretty great too, as Char-Y cannot directly switch in as if Cune gets up a sub, then it'll comfortably stall out the Sun and ultimately Zard's Solar Beams. Ultimately this thing is stupidly hard to play around, not to mention the fact that it's currently running variations of the set with Toxic to stall out defensive mons even quicker.

Also, could see both Zard-Y and Dugtrio going up to A+ right now, they are defining the meta as we speak, Volc can probably now drop (even though I still hate this thing) and both Grens could possibly move up to S and maybe Zapdos up to A too but don't feel like writing full nominations for them

Edit: Oh and I don't understand what Necrozma still does to make it relevant?