Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
lol alright I gotta admit that was a crazy error on my part, guess I clicked Charizard when looking for Mega-Y. Still though, as impressive as that 1v1 potential is it's certainly not an ideal situation. I'm also seeing more protean Gren's running rock slide which I'm assuming is a one shot. Furthermore since we're discussing Infernape's viability and not so much Zardy's I'd like to point out that Infernape does have a niche over Zard in that it has a greater speed tier, neutrality to stealth rock, and the ability to hit stuff like Chansey and Toxapex. Honestly it's probably a decent teammate for Zard Y. I wouldn't mind seeing infernape in like B- or B, it's above Pokémon such as cofagrigus for sure.
I feel like if you'd run Infernape, you'd have to run either LO 4 attacks, Scarf or SD, which both have it's enormous drawbacks. If you run LO 4 attacks, your attacks most likely have to be Blitz, CC, Mach and then U-Turn. With this set, you're completely walled by Toxapex, can't break through defensive Lando, defensive Mew CAN switch in on it and Roost up, and if you attack Zapdos w/ Blitz, you have a chance to get paralyzed. Also, if you're running EQ > U-Turn/CC, you're still not breaking through Pex.
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 135-161 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
SD 'Ape is cool, but still gets walled by Pex who can Haze, and you have a hard time setting up against most threats in the meta.
Scarf can be a cool revenge killer, but is predictable after the first time you attacked.
Infernape definitely does have its niche though, but it's nowhere good enough to be in the B ranks. I'd say C-/C as a start.
I feel like if you'd run Infernape, you'd have to run either LO 4 attacks, Scarf or SD, which both have it's enormous drawbacks. If you run LO 4 attacks, your attacks most likely have to be Blitz, CC, Mach and then U-Turn. With this set, you're completely walled by Toxapex, can't break through defensive Lando, defensive Mew CAN switch in on it and Roost up, and if you attack Zapdos w/ Blitz, you have a chance to get paralyzed. Also, if you're running EQ > U-Turn/CC, you're still not breaking through Pex.
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 135-161 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
SD 'Ape is cool, but still gets walled by Pex who can Haze, and you have a hard time setting up against most threats in the meta.
Scarf can be a cool revenge killer, but is predictable after the first time you attacked.
Infernape definitely does have its niche though, but it's nowhere good enough to be in the B ranks. I'd say C-/C as a start.
Lo 4 attacks would never run that set, u might just run ban. LO 4 attacks is a bad gren as i just remembered, so yeah. i agree with the c- ranking, but the moves u talked about dont show the full extent of its coverage, whereas gunk shot, grass knot and tpunch do
to see lopunny in the same rank as the likes of hoopa-u, jirachi, manectric and nihilego just does not sit right with me.
as it stands, i feel as though mega lopunny's efficacy is being underrepresented slightly. it's still a deadly tool vs frailer teams no matter the set, even though teams of those archetypes are waning in leu of more bulky teams featuring toxapex, mew, and clefable. its lacking matchup vs. said bulkier teams is being overstated. a set that myself (and a bunch of other players) have been using is hjk / return / substitute / encore, and i consider this to be the most optimal set in the current metagame. when played aggressively, the aforementioned set is a great tool in grabbing huge swathes of momentum against those teams, and in dismantling them. it is possible that the set perfectly fits my playstyle and my interpretation and how highly i regard it is being overblown, but in the hands of a good player who is willing to take risks and capitalise on the plethora of given opportunities to encore against a mew, toxapex, clefable, reuniclus, etc., as they are forced to heal allows lopunny to fire off risk-free attacks on different members of the team, or beat said pokemon 1v1.
Agreed, but you gotta understand that this game literally promotes not taking risks anymore and in favor of crazy ass mons who force so much momentum out of being so damn powerful and so nigh impossible to check. Passing my Infernape teams on to friends in-order for them to tell me "man you've got to make so many plays with this team it doesn't suit me" is a real thing. I agree that it should rise up but I can see why people are hesitant to using aggressive play based mons.
fyi I'm agreeing with you I just hope others will lol
lol alright I gotta admit that was a crazy error on my part, guess I clicked Charizard when looking for Mega-at. Still though as impressive as that 1v1 potential is it's certainly not an ideal situation. I'm also seeing more protean Green's running rock slide which I'm assuming is a one shot. Furthermore since we're discussing Infernape's viability and not so much Zardy's I'd like to point out that Infernape does have a niche over Zard in that it has a greater speed tier, neutrality to stealth rock, and the ability to hit stuff like Chansey and Toxapex. Honestly it's probably a decent teammate for Zard Y. I wouldn't mind seeing infernape in like B- or B, it's above Pokémon such as cofagrigus for sure.
to see lopunny in the same rank as the likes of hoopa-u, jirachi, manectric and nihilego just does not sit right with me.
as it stands, i feel as though mega lopunny's efficacy is being underrepresented slightly. it's still a deadly tool vs frailer teams no matter the set, even though teams of those archetypes are waning in leu of more bulky teams featuring toxapex, mew, and clefable. its lacking matchup vs. said bulkier teams is being overstated. a set that myself (and a bunch of other players) have been using is hjk / return / substitute / encore, and i consider this to be the most optimal set in the current metagame. when played aggressively, the aforementioned set is a great tool in grabbing huge swathes of momentum against those teams, and in dismantling them. it is possible that the set perfectly fits my playstyle and my interpretation and how highly i regard it is being overblown, but in the hands of a good player who is willing to take risks and capitalise on the plethora of given opportunities to encore against a mew, toxapex, clefable, reuniclus, etc., as they are forced to heal allows lopunny to fire off risk-free attacks on different members of the team, or beat said pokemon 1v1.
I agree that Lop is above some of the B ranks, but overall struggles with bulkier builds. I think my main objection to a rise is that you don't see as many frail teams on the ladder rn, they exist for sure, but I'd say the meta definitely caters to Bulky offense, balance, and stall atm. Lop's speed is definitely it's main selling point, but it's power is somewhat lacking and it lacks reliable way to really hurt Mew which is spammed rn. I think you're right that it's better than Hoopa-U and Manectric, but just not so much better that it deserves a rise, at least in my opinion.,
Lo 4 attacks would never run that set, u might just run ban. LO 4 attacks is a bad gren as i just remembered, so yeah. i agree with the c- ranking, but the moves u talked about dont show the full extent of its coverage, whereas gunk shot, grass knot and tpunch do
I know 'Ape has some pretty good coverage, but it suffers heavily from the 4MSS, as it most of the time it would want to run dual STAB/priority/EQ/U-Turn/Gunk, which it just can't.
seeing latios usage nowadays made me think that this pokemon should raise. it's really common to see a latios for some simply reasons. bluffing the set as per usual can be really useful in a match, since it can hold, for example, a choice scarf, which is atm the most used set, choice specs, which i actually haven't seen a lot of usage recently but i reckon it's still a nice set, expert belt, which can bluff almost every attack since it's gonna have the same special attack as the scarfer if the move isn't supereffective, soul dew, some crystals like electrium z, and so on.
furthermore, latios learns defog. since in this metagame lots of spinner from oras aren't viable or are not really used because of their weaknesses, defoggers are really more appreciated than spinners. latios fits the defog role perfectly, especially if it's holding a choice scarf, therefore it can defog on really many threats and clear the path to help its mates.
finally, its moveset is pretty good. apart from stabs and defog that we all know they're useful, latios learns hp fire to lure steel types like ferrothorn or spdef skarmory, surf especially to lure tyranitars or drills, thunderbolt to lure fini, and so on.
some replays in case you wanna see latios in action: 1234
seeing latios usage nowadays made me think that this pokemon should raise. it's really common to see a latios for some simply reasons. bluffing the set as per usual can be really useful in a match, since it can hold, for example, a choice scarf, which is atm the most used set, choice specs, which i actually haven't seen a lot of usage recently but i reckon it's still a nice set, expert belt, which can bluff almost every attack since it's gonna have the same special attack as the scarfer if the move isn't supereffective, soul dew, some crystals like electrium z, and so on.
furthermore, latios learns defog. since in this metagame lots of spinner from oras aren't viable or are not really used because of their weaknesses, defoggers are really more appreciated than spinners. latios fits the defog role perfectly, especially if it's holding a choice scarf, therefore it can defog on really many threats and clear the path to help its mates.
finally, its moveset is pretty good. apart from stabs and defog that we all know they're useful, latios learns hp fire to lure steel types like ferrothorn or spdef skarmory, surf especially to lure tyranitars or drills, thunderbolt to lure fini, and so on.
some replays in case you wanna see latios in action: 1234
I am not too sure wether Lati should rise. You have given some reasons and I can see Specs being pretty powerful on a mon with defensive Utility to 2HKO Clef with Specs Psychic or Heatran/TTar with Specs Surf and even Spdef Celesteela with Specs Thunderbolt.
It is probably an underrated user of Choice Specs but it feels wrong to me to put Latios on the same level as Tapu Koko or even Zard Y. Koko in general is incredibly hard to deal with thanks to the the myriad of viable Z-options (Z-Wild Charge, Z-Bravebird, Z-Dazzling Gleam) hitting its common counters and even oneshotting them after some prior damage in combination with its speed, solid attacking stats and useful defensive typing. Also U-turn on such a fast Electric type with 115 Base Attack is very annoying to play around.
Zard Y is a mon that legitimately rose recently to A because nothing can really switch in. Every defensive counterplay can be dealt with either a coveragemove such as HP Ice/Electric or with trapping Support from TTar and Dugtrio. Because of this, the usage of Shed Shell Toxapex skyrocketed and it is considered viable to deal just so you can deal with Zard Y+Dugtrio.
I cannot see any huge influence from Latios within the current metagame from ladder and tournament play and especially not from the replays you have posted.
seeing latios usage nowadays made me think that this pokemon should raise. it's really common to see a latios for some simply reasons. bluffing the set as per usual can be really useful in a match, since it can hold, for example, a choice scarf, which is atm the most used set, choice specs, which i actually haven't seen a lot of usage recently but i reckon it's still a nice set, expert belt, which can bluff almost every attack since it's gonna have the same special attack as the scarfer if the move isn't supereffective, soul dew, some crystals like electrium z, and so on.
furthermore, latios learns defog. since in this metagame lots of spinner from oras aren't viable or are not really used because of their weaknesses, defoggers are really more appreciated than spinners. latios fits the defog role perfectly, especially if it's holding a choice scarf, therefore it can defog on really many threats and clear the path to help its mates.
finally, its moveset is pretty good. apart from stabs and defog that we all know they're useful, latios learns hp fire to lure steel types like ferrothorn or spdef skarmory, surf especially to lure tyranitars or drills, thunderbolt to lure fini, and so on.
some replays in case you wanna see latios in action: 1234
While I do agree that Latios has substantially gotten better, I just don't see it in the A rank, there are just too many different factors that warrants it to stay in the A- rank. I won't base the argument about being choice-locked this gen (which nearly every latios set utilises a choice item this generation. [fyi being choice locked is terrible this gen - it's a momentum sap in most situations ] ).
As robopoke has already argued, there are arguably much better options that reside in the A rank Simply put - Latios just cannot compare to the move powerful / versatile options in the A rank.
Finally, in your provided replays, Latios does very little - the most notable / important thing it does is simply cripple Mew (in replay 4) and defogging multiple times ( 1, 2 and 3) and does not support your nomination for a rise.
Sorry, as much as I love Latios, I'm going have to disagree with you here.
Edit: I finally gave enough fucks to post 20 times lol
I don't think Lopunny even dismantles offense like it did last generation, let alone its less than stellar matchup against bulkier teams. Magearna, one of the best and most splashable pokemon for offensive teams, is fat enough to take any attack and set up or retaliate. Most teams run a fast scarfer these days too. The most successful HO teams tend to use Mega Pinsir and/or Sticky Web. Regardless of Webs losing effectiveness lately, it is far more viable than last gen and Lopunny is less effective against Webs than standard offense. Rain is also better this gen, and while Lopunny can pressure Rain teams, it is once again less effective against them than a standard offensive team.
The set tigers jaw mentioned is prediction reliant and can still struggle against common fat cores like Clef + Pex. The other thing is that by dropping Fake Out, you fail to utilize your best tool at chipping offensive teams to sweep late game or revenge weakened setup sweepers. For example, Tapu Koko can 1v1 Mega Lopunny from full HP if it's the Z Wild Charge set which is gaining a lot of traction these days. But Fake Out practically guarantees that following up with a Return will net the KO. Koko isn't the only example either, you will find there are quite a few. You can rely on hazard damage but it won't always work out that way. No Fake Out means you can't stall extra Rain turns either. If the best set for Lopunny sacrifices utility in its best matchup for a chance (read: it's no certainty) to pressure bulkier teams, then it is clearly not that effective in this metagame. Like yeah in theory you can 1v1 a Mew and I won't say this set never works, but a lot of bulky teams have more than one switchin to Lop. I would also note that this set is fuckin walled by defensive Lando which is horrible for Mega Lop's matchup against teams it could potentially thrive against if using Ice Punch.
Til I see good replays of it putting in work I will defer to my current experience. Which is that its not a subrank better than Mega Mane, let alone on par with mons that are actually pretty good like Suicune, Torn-T, Weavile etc. As for the other comparison mons, Nihilego is bad and should drop anyway and Hoopa is hard to fit on teams but still a bitch. Jirachi seems like a pretty decent comparison point in terms of viability to me.
I also believe Latios should remain in A-. Ttar is good, Magearna is ridiculous, and having an offensive Keldeo check isn't that important these days. Greninja is everywhere too. Not seeing what's changed for this to rise aside from checking Zard Y, but you still see Ttar with that sometimes too. Granted I think it's a solid pokemon but not on par with the other A ranks. I would argue it's not even the best thing in A-.
Just to touch on the Infernape thing, I doubt it would be ranked for a Life Orb set. Scarf I can see having some utility as it revenge kills +2 Magearna and can check +1 Volcarona. Fire types in general are kinda ridiculous in this meta so I could see it being ranked potentially. I would recommend holding off on further discussion of it for now, but it's certainly been brought to the ranking team's attention.
Some noms: Zapdos to A - Just because T-tar is rising doesn't mean this has any place in A-. Previously we only had the 3 attacks + roost set, but now there's agility too. Boosted, the set beats a chipped Zard Y, it beats Pelipper (though mega swampert is fishy) and Ash Greninja, and Scarf Keldeo loses if it's weakened. The Defog set is also a keystone in the rising Double Defog stall. This now is no longer predictable and is far more splashable than before. Tyranitar to A, and Mega T-tar too - I had touched upon this earlier, but this needs to rise. While duggy is beginning to come back up again, Zard Y loses to a boosted Mega T-tar and has to risk Focus Blast vs regular T-tar, stall has a hard time switching in, Mew is rising, Latios (who IMO belongs in A- but is still rising) is trapped and this thing can switch in to change the weather and beat pelipper 1v1 with sand.
Seeing both Zapdos and T-tar in the same rank as Skarmory (only fits on stall), Mega Sableye (also only fits on stall, doesn't deal with fairies well), Mega Medicham (who doesn't do jack vs offense and can't deal with things like Mew) and Latios (steels + darks +fairies = trouble for my favorite pokemon even if it is getting better) doesn't sit right with me. I can see these two on par with Toxapex, Clefable, Garchomp and Mega Pinsir rn in terms of splashability, effectiveness and influence on the tier.
I'll update more later when I have more time.
Zapdos to A.
Disagree. Zapdos is certainly a cool Pokémon, but it doesn't need to rise imo. With TTar rising in usage, Zapdos suffers. Zapdos has coverage but generally bulky mons still switch into it without too much issue.
I don't think Zapdos should move up or down right now.
I also have this opinion for Latios.
I have to support Normal Tyranitar to A.
TTar is a monster right now. Few things can switch into a Banded SE, and it can Pursuit trap most Protean variants. This can be done to Ash as well, though more prerequisites need to be met before this can happen. I have absolutely loved using this mon in the 1700s atm. I'm all for it rising.
However, the same cannot be said more Mega TTar. This thing never theatens me as much as it should. Even when it sets up, it still has to hit a decent number of Stone Edges or it loses. I am bias against any settup sweeper that has a low accuracy primary STAB, so it isnt surprising that I am against this. That combined with the fact that it's movepool forces it to pick its poison make me feel that this mon doesn't need to rise.
I haven't used Infernape, but I absolutely see it's utility and have been blown back by it before, so I am all for it becoming ranked.
This nomination shouldn't be controversial. On paper, Nihilego has a solid niche as a Choice Scarf user, able to revenge kill a plethora of top tier threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Mega Pinsir. In practice, it's bait for very dangerous mons such as virtually every Steel, (Mega) Tyranitar, Dugtrio, and plenty of other Pokemon depending on what move it locks itself into. For instance Zygarde can come in and freely set up / fire off a Thousand Arrows if Nihilego uses any move other than HP Ice...which doesn't OHKO anyway. You can run HP Fire but the only thing it hits is Ferrothorn, since nothing else besides like Mega Mawile is really scared of that move. Sure Nihilego revenge kills Fairy types but the only Fairies fast enough to require revenge killing are Tapu Koko, Scarf Tapu Lele, and SG Magearna. It can't come in on any of those three, not even Koko, which can pivot or fire off a Wild Charge now that physical Koko is a legitimate set. It handles Landorus-T better than Terrakion but again, Landorus-T isn't something you should need a Choice Scarf user to handle unless it's dual dance, which beats Nihilego regardless. Beyond this you don't beat anything that other Scarf users can't while losing to more relevant threats in the tier. Nihilego obviously still works on specific teams as a snowbally cleaner but B is overstating its capabilities in my opinion. I think the only mon as bad is Hoopa-U but I wouldn't be opposed to that dropping either.
This nomination shouldn't be controversial. On paper, Nihilego has a solid niche as a Choice Scarf user, able to revenge kill a plethora of top tier threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Mega Pinsir. In practice, it's bait for very dangerous mons such as virtually every Steel, (Mega) Tyranitar, Dugtrio, and plenty of other Pokemon depending on what move it locks itself into. For instance Zygarde can come in and freely set up / fire off a Thousand Arrows if Nihilego uses any move other than HP Ice...which doesn't OHKO anyway. You can run HP Fire but the only thing it hits is Ferrothorn, since nothing else besides like Mega Mawile is really scared of that move. Sure Nihilego revenge kills Fairy types but the only Fairies fast enough to require revenge killing are Tapu Koko, Scarf Tapu Lele, and SG Magearna. It can't come in on any of those three, not even Koko, which can pivot or fire off a Wild Charge now that physical Koko is a legitimate set. It handles Landorus-T better than Terrakion but again, Landorus-T isn't something you should need a Choice Scarf user to handle unless it's dual dance, which beats Nihilego regardless. Beyond this you don't beat anything that other Scarf users can't while losing to more relevant threats in the tier. Nihilego obviously still works on specific teams as a snowbally cleaner but B is overstating its capabilities in my opinion. I think the only mon as bad is Hoopa-U but I wouldn't be opposed to that dropping either.
I agree with the drop of Nigilego. Speaking of B-, I am getting together some replays now that I managed to get back to top 500 to try to raise a mon that was put there (in my opinion) by a bandwagon. I'll try to make a more coherent post about it once I get home from vacation, but I would like to know how everyone currently feels about the position of Mega Charizard X.
Like I said, I'll be getting replays and a more structured argument coming forward, but I am curious as to how people feel about it right now.
Edit: Just to be clear I am not currently nominating it, I just want to see opinions.
Ground meta shits on Zard X hard, there really isn't anything else to say. Has the same level of commitment and support as Zard Y but with half the reward.
Ground meta shits on Zard X hard, there really isn't anything else to say. Has the same level of commitment and support as Zard Y but with half the reward.
I think people are overlooking one thing about Megazard X: it's resistance to Electric. Most people are conditioned for Y, so you can pick off Kokos or Magearnas easily. Speaking of Magearna, unless it is the All-Out Pummeling set, Megazard X dumps on it. If it is the opponent may predict you being Y and try to hit you with a Thunderbolt (or Gigavolt) with a Focus Miss carrying set you still take it and retaliate with a OHKO. The Cm/SG set isn't a threat at all to Zard X.
Mew rising has given Zard a massive advantage; most current Mews are setup fodder, being completely unable to do anything meaningful to Zard.
If Zard has assistance from Tapu Bulu it can ignore some defensive Landos since the EQs are now neutral and Zard will basically have lefties.
Sorry but I don't think "not much to say" is fair and is of similar mindset to why Zard got slammed into the Sharpedo rank in the first place. I think the value of being a Dragon/Fire type isn't not being properly appreciated.
Almost all of Zard Y's checks and counters are setup fodder for the likes of Zard X, although both technically get caught in the Volcarona crossfire pretty badly (revenge killed by base 101+ scarfers with SE coverage to bop one or both of them). Tapu Koko, most Magearna variants, Mew, Chansey, and Toxapex all become heavy setup fodder for the likes of Zard X, and although Toxapex can attempt to Haze the Dragon Dance boosts away it still risks being dented by a Tough Claws boosted Dragon Claw and forced to Recover, turning that entire 1v1 situation into a prediction war that the Zard user can potentially turn into setup bait for a 6-0.
I've always been of the mindset that if one of the two Zards is incredibly good in the meta then the other has to be ranked within reason as well in order to prey on what most opponents are conditioned to deal with. Back in XY/ORAS Zard X was incredibly dominant for most of the meta because of its ability to very, very easily 6-0 most teams (and to cleanly 2HKO literally everything in the tier after a DD boost), but because many teams packed devoted Zard X checks it made Zard Y threatening in the meta because it could just OHKO most of them outright. I'd argue that Zard X's current placing may be selling it incredibly short since more and more people are running counterplay to Zard Y, much of which gives Zard X free opportunities to Dragon Dance away and sweep.
Just note that this isn't a direct nomination for Zard X to rise just yet, although I'd argue it's clearly better than Mega Sharpedo and a lot of the other things in B- that I seldom see used on serious OU teams. Zard X has far more going for it in this meta than things like Mega Gardevoir, Porygon-Z, and Salamence, which all face stiff competition from other OU mons both at their own roles and as Megas or Z-crystal users. I could see myself using Zard X over Zard Y because of the pressure it puts on Zard Y's counters. I couldn't see myself using Mega Gardevoir over Tapu Lele, Porygon-Z over Volcarona or Autotomize Celesteela, or Salamence over Flyinium-Z Landorus-T.
You don't set up on any of charYs defensive checks for free
scarf lati outspeeds you and kills you at +1.
Toxapex negates boosts, meaning you'll never come out of the 1v1 at +1 +1 and are liable to be be revenged killed. Hell, some Toxapex even run Toxic so they don't even need to play the Haze game with you.
Chansey toxics you, and since it's a Chansey you're either playing stall which has Unaware Clef + Dugtrio anyways; or you're playing some jank Chansey offense which usually carries heavy priority. Tyranitar eats then edges you and you die. The only thing you set up on is Mew which has heavy usage with Lando. Let charX rest guys
Since when have Magearna and Mew been checks for Zard-Y? Almost all variants of Mag are cleanly OHKOed, while all variants of Mew are cleanly 2HKOed.
Zard X has too many splashable checks in the meta - Landorus, ScarfChomp, Heatran, Toxapex, Tyranitar, Scarf Latios...
Sure, a couple of these can be gotten around with EQ, but then you have to lose Roost, which really sucks.
It's just hard to justify using it when there's a landorus on every other team and at least one of the others on a given team too. Not to mention that fini still gets decent usage.
Since when have Magearna and Mew been checks for Zard-Y? Almost all variants of Mag are cleanly OHKOed, while all variants of Mew are cleanly 2HKOed.
Zard X has too many splashable checks in the meta - Landorus, ScarfChomp, Heatran, Toxapex, Tyranitar, Scarf Latios...
Sure, a couple of these can be gotten around with EQ, but then you have to lose Roost, which really sucks.
It's just hard to justify using it when there's a landorus on every other team and at least one of the others on a given team too. Not to mention that fini still gets decent usage.
We're acting like we're playing in low ladder, where everyone ddances their zard x turn 1 regardless of what's left on the opponent's team because "it's my sweeper!"
This is the same logic people use for saying "volcarona is overrated" when it is one of the most metagame-defining sweepers. If any sweeper's checks are intact, you don't set up. We all tend to forget that volcarona has base 135 spA and can smack teams early-mid game, hence the existence of volcarona balance teams.
Similarly to using volcarona, if you see their "zard y" switch-in is a garchomp, nihilego, latios, or a zygarde but their lando is healthy, you very clearly don't ddance and just dragon claw instead, thus wallbreaking for the team (nobody switches a lando-t into a potential zard y, well at least for now until people realize zard x is still a threat). Base 130 atk off of tough claws is no joke, 2hko'ing band ttar after rocks all the time at +0, or without rocks just over half the time. The prediction game is in your favor here, because zard y is so prominent that everyone assumes your zard is y.
While roost seems enticing to relive the oras days of 6-0'ing teams with zard x, three attacks is definitely the way to go with either eq or tpunch (if you're running koko) to ensure the rampage does as much damage as possible. Fini exists, but because of all the speed it has to run now, this is a thing:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 282-334 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 112-133 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (fini can't do much back except haze and die)
Most teams do carry lando-t, but wearing this down isn't exactly rocket science. After a single hp ice, it cannot check zard x ddancing to +1 (which is what it switches into). Alternatively, luring the #1 overused mon isn't a bad idea, and there's an entire forum dedicated to that which has already gone over potential lures for lando-t.
In short, reasons to use zard x include abusing metagame trends such as mantine and dragons switching into your "zard y", or setting up on electrics that try to ohko your "drought abuser". Also, it's a zard y switch-in, which I believe the meta is lacking as of now ;)
We're acting like we're playing in low ladder, where everyone ddances their zard x turn 1 regardless of what's left on the opponent's team because "it's my sweeper!"
This is the same logic people use for saying "volcarona is overrated" when it is one of the most metagame-defining sweepers. If any sweeper's checks are intact, you don't set up. We all tend to forget that volcarona has base 135 spA and can smack teams early-mid game, hence the existence of volcarona balance teams.
Similarly to using volcarona, if you see their "zard y" switch-in is a garchomp, nihilego, latios, or a zygarde but their lando is healthy, you very clearly don't ddance and just dragon claw instead, thus wallbreaking for the team (nobody switches a lando-t into a potential zard y, well at least for now until people realize zard x is still a threat). Base 130 atk off of tough claws is no joke, 2hko'ing band ttar after rocks all the time at +0, or without rocks just over half the time. The prediction game is in your favor here, because zard y is so prominent that everyone assumes your zard is y.
While roost seems enticing to relive the oras days of 6-0'ing teams with zard x, three attacks is definitely the way to go with either eq or tpunch (if you're running koko) to ensure the rampage does as much damage as possible. Fini exists, but because of all the speed it has to run now, this is a thing:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 282-334 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 112-133 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (fini can't do much back except haze and die)
Most teams do carry lando-t, but wearing this down isn't exactly rocket science. After a single hp ice, it cannot check zard x ddancing to +1 (which is what it switches into). Alternatively, luring the #1 overused mon isn't a bad idea, and there's an entire forum dedicated to that which has already gone over potential lures for lando-t.
In short, reasons to use zard x include abusing metagame trends such as mantine and dragons switching into your "zard y", or setting up on electrics that try to ohko your "drought abuser". Also, it's a zard y switch-in, which I believe the meta is lacking as of now ;)
It sounds like a lot of the reason you're pushing for a rise bases on the fact that most charizards are Y now, so people won't expect an X. That seems like a pretty shaky argument, because as soon as people start using X again we go back to the way it was when X is just the less valuable of the two being used.
" three attacks is definitely the way to go "
By dropping roost, charX leaves itself susceptible to getting worn down very quickly, not only because it's weak to every hazard, but because it has to blitz a lot of things (like tang or landot) to really do anything, so now it's taking EH damage, blitz damage, helmet chip, and it's easily in range of priority moves or just faster attackers.
"Most teams do carry lando-t, but wearing this down isn't exactly rocket science."
This is only true as long as zardX is a surprise. No one wastes their landot to an obvious HP Ice when they think there could be a zardX in the back. People say lando-t is easy to wear down, but it's only as easy to wear down as it's user allows it to be. By that I mean, people throw it at all kinds of attacks because it's easy, but when you know you need it, you can quite easily not do that. If landot is your only check to all physical attackers then that's just bad teambuilding.
"reasons to use zard x include abusing metagame trends such as mantine and dragons switching into your "zard y", or setting up on electrics that try to ohko your "drought abuser"
Again, totally dependent on them expecting charY. Plus this brings up the second question after we've decided to drop Roost, do we go TPunch for mantine and lose to heatran or go EQ for heatran and lose to mantine?
It may be that right this second CharX is better than it has been recently, but if it's just because it's a surprise right now then I don't feel like that's worth a raise. In two weeks people will be scouting again (side note: I still scout zard forms a lot of the time, do people really not?).
It sounds like a lot of the reason you're pushing for a rise bases on the fact that most charizards are Y now, so people won't expect an X. That seems like a pretty shaky argument, because as soon as people start using X again we go back to the way it was when X is just the less valuable of the two being used.
" three attacks is definitely the way to go "
By dropping roost, charX leaves itself susceptible to getting worn down very quickly, not only because it's weak to every hazard, but because it has to blitz a lot of things (like tang or landot) to really do anything, so now it's taking EH damage, blitz damage, helmet chip, and it's easily in range of priority moves or just faster attackers.
"Most teams do carry lando-t, but wearing this down isn't exactly rocket science."
This is only true as long as zardX is a surprise. No one wastes their landot to an obvious HP Ice when they think there could be a zardX in the back. People say lando-t is easy to wear down, but it's only as easy to wear down as it's user allows it to be. By that I mean, people throw it at all kinds of attacks because it's easy, but when you know you need it, you can quite easily not do that. If landot is your only check to all physical attackers then that's just bad teambuilding.
"reasons to use zard x include abusing metagame trends such as mantine and dragons switching into your "zard y", or setting up on electrics that try to ohko your "drought abuser"
Again, totally dependent on them expecting charY. Plus this brings up the second question after we've decided to drop Roost, do we go TPunch for mantine and lose to heatran or go EQ for heatran and lose to mantine?
It may be that right this second CharX is better than it has been recently, but if it's just because it's a surprise right now then I don't feel like that's worth a raise. In two weeks people will be scouting again (side note: I still scout zard forms a lot of the time, do people really not?).
While expecting Zard Y gives you a huge advantage, just having the typing of Dragon lets you come in on a lot more than Flying can. I do agree that Roost is the way to go right now, since you can punch holes in stall bar Sash Duggy.
We have to ask ourselves something, though. Does Megazard X really compare to Pokémon like Sharpedo, Mega Gardevoir, and Latias, or is it better? I say it is better.
Even if someone predicts you being Megazard X (which would be somewhat unlikely) they still have to play around the completely different ways of controlling it as opposed to Y. Even if you don't sweep, you will punch holes in teams and usually take two Pokémon with you. X seems to always get value, and is no stranger to making the sweep. I don't see how it isn't as good as or better than Pokémon like Manectric or Mantine.
sticky web as a playstyle has taken a hit because people are starting to prepare for it. pinsir is still stupid, but people are running solid checks to offensive celesteela, mimikyu, and especially zygarde. smeargle itself struggles with the addition of lopunny to the metagame along with shitty matchups against top tier threats such as heatran and tapu koko. it isn't the thing you could bring to tournaments and cheese your way to easy wins.
mega heracross → b+
this pokemon looks odd within a-. it doesn't even beat stall and the metagame is not very kind to it. clefable just rose a rank and its bait for all the ridiculous fire-types in the tier. landorus-t run supersonic skystrike a lot now, it was barely a zygarde check to begin with, fast mews/zapdos,...swampert, gallade and scizor are better picks in this metagame compared to heracross, and all 3 of them are sitting in b+. mega heracross should join them too.
rises:
alolan ninetales → b- / b rank
aurora veil offense is deadly and arguably better than sticky web at the moment. it makes pokemon like zygarde low key broken and it synergizes like a boss with magearna, mega tyranitar, suicune, etc., pokemon you wouldn't normally see on sticky web since that is more about immediate pressure than set up moves and dish.
dugtrio → a+
trapping itself allows pokemon such as necrozma and pidgeot to be viable in this metagame which is a testament to how good it is. literally destroys the usage of many pokemon such as hoopa-u which is much better than people give credit for, but hey look dugtrio is here! it's even more disgusting how certain users are using eject button on random 'mons such as latios and rotom-w and then getting rewarded. supports many top tier threats as mega charizard y and holds stall together, the most dominant playstyle right now.
tapu koko → a+
i think tapu koko is damn good right now. z-wild charge sets are everywhere at the moment and invalidate counters like av magearna and chansey. tapu koko in general is super splashable on teams ranging from bulky offense to rain to ho because momentum is the name of the game. the metagame is also very kind to it. subcoil zygarde is rare (though can be a menace for certain teams). offensive landorus-t is the landorus-t meaning dazzling gleam hp fire is very affordable at the moment. it's not even a bad choice because of how much latios, mega swampert, and kyurem-b usage there is right now. spikes ash greninja was not one of the most popular things when tapu koko dropped. now it is and people are starting to find ways to pressure tangrowth with ease. it pairs well with all the ridiculous breakers in the tier. kyurem-b and medicham in particular gain sexy boosts to their coverage making them monsters to deal with in practice. finally, specs tapu koko is hot right now. it reminds of specs keldeo in oras. stop pretending ground-types are your tapu koko answer lol.
finally if you look at the recent updates, they have all been in favor of tapu koko. people are starting to realize how kind the metagame is towards it, so yes, i am bringing this up for y'all to discuss.
I've been meaning to make this nomination for a while now but never got around to it. The only reason to use Latias is Healing Wish. Latias is much more passive then its brother due to Latios's extra power, Latias literally invites any Steel type in for free. Tyranitar and its Mega Evolution are problems for it as well. As for Latias's extra bulk:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 86-102 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 98-116 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 84-100 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 98-116 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO
Those aren't large differences.
Latias is really only good for Healing Wish and invites too much stuff in for free, while Latios has more of an offensive presence, running sets like Choice Specs and Electrium Z. IMO it's not on the same level as Azumarill, Sharpedo-Mega, Salamence, Nidoking, and Muk-Alola, and I don't think it's any better than Manaphy, Gyarados-Mega, Starmie, Aerodactyl-Mega, Primarina, Volcanion, or Cofagrigus. IMO, it wasn't B- material since the start of the generation, so apologies for the delay of this nomination.
I also agree with everything that Vertex said in his above post. I'm also glad people are finally opening their eyes to Dazzling Gleam on Tapu Koko, it's not a move you'd want to run every time but it's still perfectly viable for hitting Kyurem-Black, Sableye-Mega, and Latios. The metagame doesn't have a better anti-lead IMO. And Aurora Veil is a major boon to balance and offense and supports a myriad of mons.
