Metagame SM PU Alpha (playable on PS!)

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Okay I typed this post out and it was way longer than I intended but hear me out.

Torracat could be good, but not as an all-out attacker in my opinion. I'm going to compare this mon to Monferno because they are very similar. Both have access to both Nasty Plot and Swords Dance, making them unpredictable when they come in. They both share the Fire typing, which all around isn't that bad offensively. However, that's kinda where the similarities stop. Torracat, while stat-wise is slightly better than Monferno, lacks two things: priority for offensive sets (why doesn't this thing get sucker punch) and reliable recovery for defensive ones. And though its speed tier is better than the monkey's, it still is outsped by several threats like Simipour and Floatzel and the only semi-viable Pokemon that Torracat outspeeds over Monferno are Articuno and non-scarf Rotom-F. Also, Monferno has the second typing of Fighting giving it a second powerful STAB combination and allowing it to take neutral damage from rocks, something Torracat cannot do.

However, I do think there could be an interesting niche to this Pokemon when Intimidate gets released (who knows how long that'll take). Most other Intimidate users would rather use their other abilities (Arbok using Shed Skin, Luxray using Guts, and Stoutland almost always running Scrappy). Rather than using an offensive Sub+NP set or...that scarf set, I think it'd be better as a defensive set. I came up with two sets that I think could be useful at some point.
Torracat @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spe OR 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
This set could be a useful way to shut down a lot of defensive set up sweepers with Taunt. Will-o-Wisp help deal with physical attackers, Flamethrower is a reliable STAB without any recoil, though you could use Fire Blast for more power. U-Turn is the last move so that Torracat can be a better pivot after switching in to take a physical hit. The first EV spread outspeeds Jolly base 60s like Pawniard (though you should never swap into that obviously because of Defiant) while maximizing physical bulk. The second outspeeds neutral base 60s. There are other things you can try to speed creep the loss in bulk is substantial.

Torracat @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life
- Flare Blitz / Fire Fang
- Crunch / Shadow Claw / Frustration
This second set is possibly the closest to an offensive set as I'd like to see. Torracat can function as a decent Bulk Up user due to Intimidate in combination with Eviolite. Leech Life is Torracat's only form of recovery outside of Rest, and with the buff this gen, it's not actually that bad. Unfortunately, it doesn't add a ton to cat's coverage other than hitting Grumpig better. Flare Blitz is your obligatory STAB (ONLY use Fire Fang if you're really worried about recoil). The last move is mainly filler, though Crunch is probably your best bet in my opinion.

Overall, I think Torracat could be a usable mon because of its defensive capabilities, but unfortunately we'll have to wait until Intimidate is released. The lack of priority and reliable recovery sucks a lot, but this is PU after all. Its unpredictability also could make it difficult to play around if an offensive set is played correctly.

tl;dr While it definitely won't be a game changer, once Intimidate is released, Torracat could become a nice niche mon and be very useful on some balance teams.
You are aware Arbok and Luxray used Intimidate much more then there other abilities? Arbok optionally run Shed Skin and Luxray w/Guts was more so a low ladder specialty.

Defensive sets are outclassed by sturdier more reliable defensive mons and while it has momentum in u-turn its got the same issue torkoal has as a pure Fire-Type which is no reliable recovery.

The BU set again just suffers from why not Monferno? Intimidate could offer more set-up opportunities but not being weak to rocks,extra resistances and Mach Punch (Somewhat Slack Off) just add up more long term.

I can understand the love it gets but Intimidate is just being really overrated eapecially when ignoring what it lacks over other Fires.
 
I'm probably on the list of the most hyped guys for new gen 7 mons. I know my post will be long so I will use hide lol.


Lurantis @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis / Giga Drain
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]

LOL this is the mon I hype the most. ZeitoKrabby can tell. Lurantis seems like a great offensive defogger. Its typing grants it neutrality to rocks and also a STAB to deal with most rockers too. While its movepool is rather small, between Leaf Storm and fire coverage it gets most of what it needs. It's very nice bulk (70/90/90) also allow it to outspeed what it needs to. It's EV'ed to outspeed creeping Exeggutor (which hits 191 spe, while this set hits 192), while going max spa and the rest dumped into HP. The main downside of Lurantis is the fact that it hates Spikes and Toxic Spikes unlike Swanna, and also can't even force common Spikers out (Frogadier outspeeds and OHKOes with lo Ice Beam, Roselia hard counters the set, it can't do shit to Venipede but using HP Fire and getting very low), but its still a sturdy mon. The moveset is standard: Defog gives it a niche and a reason to be used at all over Servine, Synthesis for reliable recovery although Giga Drain can be used if you feel like having a more consistent STAB to spam (8 pp to spam with your main move is sad), Leaf Storm powerful STAB that gives it Nasty Plot via Contrary and HP Fire for coverage.

Overall rate: A-/A


There are quite a few possible sets for this guy so I won't be posting. At first glance: 'OMFG, 115 attack with No Guard STAB Stone Edge? Ban to Ubers', but, If you take a closer look at its movepool, you quickly change your mind. It's coverage is Brick Break and Crunch, and they are quite mediocre. Not even Earthquake. Into possible sets, this guy gets Taunt and Stealth Rocks, niche only shared by Monferno and Barbaracle (underrated set when it was around though). It could act as a reliable lead as its our fastest rocker tied with Gabite, and sits at a very nice speed tier, outspeeding Monferno and base 80s. CB also seems decent because No Guard Stone Edge is extremely spammable, same goes for Scarf. It's definitely not bulky, but it's bulk is nothing to laugh at either. 85/75/75 is quite enough to tank a hit or two.

Overall rate: B/B+

this represents all of them, ok? ok

Oricorio forms seem like decent offensive pokemons, all of them has a niche. Sensu is the upgraded CM Drifblim, Baile has very cool secondary STAB to dismantle Steel Types that try to switch in, Pompom has that awesome defensive typing however lacks Volt Switch unlike Rotom-S (which is giving it competition), while Pa'u seems mediocre at best, providing meh niches over its brothers, or over PU mons in general. In my opinion, their main sets will be all offensive: LO Roost + 3 Attacks (Hurricane, relevation dance and Hidden Power of choice), SubCM lefties, Sub/CM pass, CM + 2 attacks + BP and Roost BP 2 attacks.

Overall rate: A- for Pompom and Baile, B+ for Sensu and I really don't know about Pa'u


This one seems like a great stallbreaker. It can run creep for Vibrava and invest into bulk/Spa. However, it has some glaring flaws: At first, it suffers competition from Grumpig and Beheeyem, both of which do similar jobs at stallbreaking. Grumpig is versatile and possesses a multitude of sets, from SubCM to Specially Defensive, while Beheeyem can actually invest in bulk while still being capable of 2hkoing Quagsire, something Oranguru could never dream of. Lack of a fighting resist in favour to a ghost imunity isn't a fair trade, as ghost STAB and attacks in general are very scarce in the PU metagame, although this makes Oranguru a great Psychic check as its imune to their main coverage move in Shadow Ball. However, Oranguru has better physical bulk and Nasty Plot over Grumpig, and over Beheeyem it has ghost imunity (therefore checks Psychics much better and grabs more set up opportunities), better overall bulk and access to Focus Blast.

Overall rate: if bulkier playstyles stay as common as they are, A, otherwise, A-/B+.


Toucannon @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 212 Atk / 44 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bullet Seed
- Overheat
- Boomburst / Roost

This mon is literally the worst thing in earth for defensive teams and alike. Sporting god-like coverage to break past common Flying checks, this thing has pretty much no GSI. Boomburst and Brave Bird are highly spammable STABs, Bullet Seed for rock types and Overheat for Steel types, pretty straight foward and simple. For those wondering, max speed is max speed, a boosting nature allow it outspeeding Pawniard, 44 Spa guarantee the '2hko' on Metang with Overheat (it won't 2hko, it'll do over 50% always, even w/o Rocks) and the rest dumped into attack. Roost hinders LO and BB recoil while allow you playing around slower Sucker Punch users such as Pawniard and Cacturne although Boomburst gives you a another highly spammable STAB that hits physical walls with Flying neutrality (such as Vullaby and Pelipper) significantly harder than BB does. Overall very cool mon that obliterates passive teams. It also gets access to SD so Lefties SubSD or SD 3 attacks might be a thing.

Overall rate: B+/A-

Togedemaru @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Zing Zap
- Encore
- Toxic

Lazy spread. Maybe max hp also works. This guy doesn't seem potent with underwhelming stats at best and next to 0 coverage, which features the lack of a good physical Steel STAB. If you take a closer look, however, its typing grants it a lot of resistances and one imunity which allow it check threatening mons such as Articuno and Leafeon. Pretty simple set. Zing Zag is strongest STAB after Wild Charge however with no recoil (and only a 10 bp difference so come on), Toxic is Toxic, U-Turn helps with pivoting and Encore to check some mons that set up such as SubRoost Articuno, Nasty Plot Misdreavus and Swords Dance Leafeon. Iron Barbs was the chosen ability because it punishes physical attackers Togedemaru checks such as Dodrio and Lightning Rod is kinda meh considering most Electric types have coverage to bop it, but it has a niche in dealing with Rotom-F (specially scarfed and SubPlit) better than Iron Barbs.

Overall rate: B-/B.


This guy seens a bit fun to be honest. Its bulk is very nice and so are its offenses, however Speed and HP are the main problem. It's indeed a powerful wallbreaker even though it lacks coverage and its pretty much forced to go mixed, which is hindering one of its defenses or its already low speed. The fact that its ability forces it to become a pathetic mon with 0 offenses, 0 bulk, and still slow af is a very huge downside, so this is gimmick and situational, yet powerful and definitely puts in work.

Overall rate: B-/C+.


Raticate-Alola @ Choice Scarf* / Choice Band'
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature* / Adamant' (Jolly also works)
- Crunch
- Double-Edge/Frustration
- Switcheroo* (also works on CB)/Sucker Punch'
- U-turn

Raticate-Alola @ Black Glasses
Ability: Hustle
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Frustration
- Crunch

Faticate is a mon with great potential altho its been heavily underrated. It's power is very near Zweilous' except its a lot faster and has worse defensive typing, while packing one a lot more spammable secondary stab in Double-Edge. One very nice perk I've found is its ability to survive Musharna's CM-boosted Signal Beam and OHKO back with CB-boosted Crunch after rocks. Swords Dance also gets to set up fairly a few times with its ability to check Choice-locked Psychic types such as Specs BEM and Scarf Mr. Mime and decent overall bulk. Priority also helps to avoid revenge killing, and being resistant to two common priority moves in Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak is very cool. Sadly, Mawile walls it pretty bad unless you run like Flame Wheel which is a meh choice but still its a very strong breaker. Overall, Faticate is a sturdy breaker that gets quite a fewswitch in opportunities and next to no switch ins.

Overall rate: A-.


This guy has a very decent typing both offensively and defensively, being the fastest Volt Switch blocker in the tier aswell as the fastest rocker. While people (in pu) think it'll be in higher tiers because of Sand Force, I doubt honestly because while its decently powerful its weak to common priority in Aqua Jet and Mach Punch while very frail and while speedy, nothing amazing, as it fails to outspeed things like Floatzel and most scarfers.

Overall rate: A/A-.


This guy's Bulk Up set seems less effective versus Stall with Quagsire and Bronzor running around, but it's dangerous to every other playstyle regardless. Toxic Taunt might recieve some attention because it still walls what BU walls expect it doesn't boost its already-decent offense, while having a much better matchup versus Stall teams (no, Bronzor doesn't beat you as you can taunt and then stall it out with a combo of Seismic Toss and Slack Off). Primeape and possibly Passimian (at least while it lacks Defiant) in PU do makes it run for its money though, as they are a lot more difficult to stall than Monferno and Machoke due their speed and power, but its still dangerous. Even Carracosta doesn't beat it unless it fishes for Stone Edge crits.

Should it stay? No


This thing is still dangerous. Countering things and finding a lot of set up opportunities versus a big portion of the tier. We are getting a few Dark types in Persian-A and Raticate-A, but Persian loses if Musharna Calm Minds on the switch (Dark Pulse fails to 2hko, Signal Beam OHKOes back) while Raticate-A has a sightly better matchup, being able to avoid the ohko from +1 Signal Beam while having ~50% chance to OHKO with CB Hustle Crunch. However, versus a Colbur variant, Raticate loses once it has been sightly weakened.

Should it stay? No


We all know CB Head Smash is cool and all but lets face facts: RIP Reli. Costa is very good but as I've said in my post at the NP thread, things that beat it (mainly Scarfers with Water resists) and the gain of a hard counter in Quagsire (which, unless Costa runs a mixed set with Hydro Pump or Hidden Power Grass, it has no way of dealing with) makes it sightly worse. We're also recieving a very good check in Throh and if we decide to keep it, it make things more balanced as Costa needs to hit Throh with Zen Headbutt, bulky grasses with Ice Beam and Quag with Hydro Pump/Hidden Power Grass. This coverage issue could render it less unhealthy/broken.

Should it stay? Maybe, depends on how meta settles.


This guy is not exactly broken... The thing is that its so fat, offense barely deals with it. Being a great-all around tank, a nice wallbreaker with CB, or a stallbreaker with cro and Taunt Toxic sets makes it a bit unhealthy still. A lot like Machoke, it forces us to run at least 2 things capable of OHKOing or barely doing so (which are mainly STAB super effective attacks), and, unlike Machoke, it doesn't rely on its item for bulk, so its a lot more difficult to wear down than one would think. We will of course lose Dodrio and Pelipper, so we could also consider Throh has got 2 less checks; Musharna here makes it a lot worse though, but we should be quickbanning it anyway so w/e.

Should it stay? Probably no.


With the confusion nerf (for those who doesn't know, it's now 33% chance to hit yourself instead 50%), it's a lot more manageable. It seems a lot more healthy than Throh because w/o Eviolite it really lacks bulk, meaning it can't mindlessly switch into Knock Off users unlike Throh would do. It's still as great as ever though.

Should it stay? Yes.


Should I comment on this? Every single person who knows me also knows I was and still am totally against an Exeggutor ban, so it's pretty obvious I think it should and want it to stay... so don't mind me.

Should it stay? ...Do I really have to answer that?


This thing is still as powerful as ever. Defensive teams' main checks are Muk, Quilladin (both hard countering it), Audino (beats it with Wish, Regenerator, Knock Off and Protect) and Roselia can take a Weather Ball at full and do ~45% back with Sludge Bomb, which, coupled with LO and rocks, will leave Victreebel at around ~25% (2 LO rounds to kill roselia, ~45% from Sludge Bomb, ~12% from rocks), which makes it a lot easier to pick it up by priority or just put in a teammate that takes a hit (not hard to do honestly). About offensive teams, Scarfers to 96 spe and up outspeed Modest variant (Simis, Rapidash, Dodrio [for a while], Raichu, etc), faster Chlorophyl users such as Sawsbuck, Leafeon and Jumpluff also check it, Kadabra as usual, Max HP Meowstic can Light Screen on its face and proceed to OHKO it with Psychic/Psyshock, both Grumpig and Monferno take a hit and OHKO back, AV Bouffalant checks it, AV Beheeyem checks it...
So yeah, there's plenty of counter play, but its still a powerful force if you don't prepare for it.

Should it stay? Yeah, probably.
EDIT: forgot this one, rip


Okaaay, this thing is still very broken. Sets up easily, destroy teams easily. "Quagsire's unaware, hard stop, gg" this thing has Seed Bomb which clearly 2hkoes Quag so, rip.

Will it stay in the tier? Definitely no.
EDIT²: This also got recently banned so


Our lazy thing was never that broken and I honestly think it won't be this gen. SuMo brought a multitude of slow, yet powerful mons, which just oblitarate stall, and we are probably getting a few of them. Getting new instantly-powerful wallbreakers means you don't need to set up to hard stall, so yeah, I think stall won't be as powerful.

Will it stay? Depending on how many new breakers we get, yes!

I'm lazy to finish it right now, but I'll update this post with a list of NFEs that seem to have a niche in PU (looking at you, Mareanie) and also possible NU drops.


Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Haze
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes

This is arguably the best NFE this gen offered PU. It brings one awesome niche in being a nice defensive Toxic Spikes setter (a trait only shared by Roselia here, even then its defensive set is very meh in late ORAS), which is already a good thing going for it. Water/Poison is an awesome defensive typing which gives it a good resistances such as Fire and Fighting and a Grass neutrality which allow it checking threatening Water types. The huge downside this guy has is being passive as hell, but it does avoid being set up on via Haze, and its bulk is also quite underwhelming if its eviolite has been somehow removed. The fact that it fails to harm Muk, the best Toxic Spike absorver in the tier, is sad. For those wondering, this spread I made allow it completely countering Floatzel, avoiding the 2HKO after rocks from both CB-boosted Frustration and LO-boosted HP Electric, while also checking NP Ninetales (avoiding an OHKO from every move I'd like to throw). However, this spread fails to check Lefties/Charcoal Rapidash (Wild Charge 2hkoes after rocks), so there's a reason to go max Def, just poiting out it doesn't avoid the 2hko from LO Dashy though.


Grimer-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Taunt/Filler

This seems a lot more niche than Mareanie. Its typing allow it checking Psychic types rather reliably and spam STAB Knock Offs around but nothing much than that. This spread is mainly to avoid the OHKO from Mr. Mime's NP-boosted Dazzling Gleam after Rocks while being decently powerful. As I've talked with a few guys, this would be a lot better if Haunter came back this gen, however we don't know yet so...


This guy is funny. While one would think its utterly trash because of its only passable 100 Atk and eviolite-reliant 70/70/45 bulk, which is coupled by the lack of Arena Trap like Trapinch or ability to support a very powerful mon like Hippopotas is underwhelming. However, this guy has a very nice hidden gem in Stamina. Its ability gives it a +1 boost in defense when its hit by every attack, which is very cool on its own, allowing it to 1v1 pretty much every physical attacker that lacks a super effective STAB, and even some, like non-CB Relicanth, it actually does if it runs Resttalk. This gives it a good niche over Hippopotas and Trapinch, as it deals with rock-types a lot better than those two, aswell as blanket checks physical attackers better.


This seems more like a gimmick, but this thing is hella bulky with Fluffly and eviolite, in a similar boat to Mudbray. Its SpDef is workable with Eviolite so it can pull off a BU set kinda decently but with Vigoroth back (at least for a while) I don't think it'll receive that much attention. Not much to say, but it seems niche, idk if this niche will be enough to be viable but I honestly doubt.
 
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Hey Guys... sorry for the long absence but I was having a rough time (For a short story, I was forced to quit my job, and move from my country... I'm now living in Argentina!)

I would like to discuss a few things here as an avid PU player (avid, not good ):

Based on a few comments that I saw earlier on this thread and seeing upper metagames (OU Beta and UU Alpha), We are NOT getting:

* A-Persian: It's as bulky as Furfrou but with A LOT MORE options, especially supporting ones. Z-Parting Shot will be more than enough to make it RU or NU at least, considering that Dark isn't exactly a bad typing and it can even setup NPs in front of a few things in upper tiers.

* Wishiwashi: Heck, we all know its ability is pretty much crap, but that bulk - power is too much for PU... While a lot of things are even more powerful or bulkier than this one, they DO NOT have that spectacular Water typing...

* Almost every form of Silvally: This thing has Physical STAB for every Type + Dark/Steel/Rock/Ghost/Bug/Dragon/Normal/Fangs Coverage (And Swords Dance) and Boltbeam/Water/Flying/Ghost/Fire/Normal (And Draco Meteor) for Special Sets... Heck even crappy typings like Rock will have a rough time getting this low (90BP 100% Accurate Rock STAB isn't bad at all, especially at +2). The only ones that could potentially be here are just Bug (because that typing just suscks offensively and defensively) and Grass (it's pretty much outclassed by Leafeon with the same speed, a lot more special bulk but less physical bulk and no recovery). Psychic isn't outclassed by Mesprit because it can setup, has a better physical STAB and they ultimately do different things (it han do UTurn and PShot Pivoting) and Ice while it's like the worst defensive Typing, gives Silvally one of the best offensive STABs (90 BP 100% accurate Ice STAB with no Drawbacks) with also having the chance for setup.

* A-Dugtrio: There is a lot of things that this thing can do in upper tiers. Ground + Steel can remedy its low bulk (see how bulky is Excadrill) and 100/110 offensive stats are pretty good. It can even work as a fast SR setter, something pretty much appreciated in RU and NU tiers (it outclasses Archeops on that, thanks to a better typing I think). Oh and since Dug will probably keep being OU until they ban Arena Trap, A-Dug can be a pretty nice replacement there.

* Type Null: This thing is disgustingly bulky and it can setup SD easily or even go with Resttalk shenanigans... Who cares about coverage when you can blank check a lot of shit and then keep chipping damage? Even if it gets down to PU, lets see a pretty nice calc:
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Type-Null: 212-252 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Munchlax Return vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 246-291 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

* A-Marowak: I guess you all realized this didn't even drop to UU, but even if it does someday, isn't getting to PU just because its typing is so much better than plain ground to check things and it is still strong enough to deal massive damage thanks to Thick Club. Also with Lighting Rod, A-Maro has three immunities and can't be burned... pretty much an improvement.

* Lycanrock Night: This thing isn't as bad as a lot of people wants to make it. Slightly higher bulk will allow it to use Double Dance sets, it still has a decent speed tier for Rock Polishing without a lot of investment (leaving more room for bulk), while not perfect, Stone Edge - Brick Break Coverage isn't bad (and will be breaking a lot of stuff at +2), it has priority (SPunch) and can even do Rocks and Taunt. I personally see this as an improved version of Stoutland outside of Sand.
+2 252+ Atk Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 195-231 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Not bad I guess

* Lurantis: while not as bulky as Serperior (just by a little margin) and obviously not as fast, Lurantis can still wallbreak pretty easily not only using Contrary-Leaf Storm but also going with SD Physical Sets. I think this one will probably be kept by NU, considering they usually have a slower metagame than upper tiers. 200+ Speed was more than enough for wallbreaking there in ORAS so...

* Turtonator: This thing is pretty much like Carracosta... however 36 Base Speed at +2 can outspeed base 115-120 (something that Carracosta can't) and Fire-Dragon while weak to Rocks, it's slightly better defensive-offensive combo than Water-Rock (No 4x Weakness, two 4x resistances opposing to one on Costa) and has dual type STAB Nukes (Draco Meteor and Overheat). No priority hurts, but I personally think this one will be NU also (NU doesn't have many viable dragons also).

* Drampa: This thing will also be kept by NU... think about it as a slower but more powerful Exploud, because it has basically the same huge coverage and power.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering Hyper Voice BP is less than 3/4 of Boomburst, I think the damage is pretty good...

* Araquanid: Another thing that will not be here... UU wants it and if they drop it, RU will not let it go lower... Water Bubble is just too op... Heck, we might not even get Dewpider (almost 400 base attack using Water type moves and with a decent defensive typing + decent bulk due to eviolite)

* A-Raichu: New typing + More Coverage + Ways to past Special Walls + the same shenanigans normal Raichu has (Encore, Surf and that kind of things), this will probably be stolen by NU or maybe even RU... BTW even if Koko does't get banned, I think A-Raichu will eventually drop to lower tiers, much like Stoutland did. Just not low enough for us to enjoy it.

* A-Sandslash: No... two 4x weaknesses did not made Aggron to drop from NU... it will not make A-Sandslash drop either. Also as a Slush Rush sweeper with impecable coverage in Just one STAB and EQ, and considering it can also get Knock Off, Swords Dance, Iron Head, heck it can even recover a little bit of health with Leech Life...

* Crabominable: while slow and not bulky, this thing has such an amazing offensive STAB combo, that I doubt higher tiers will lend it to us. sure, it has bad bulk, bad speed and crappish defensive typing like Flareon and Stoutland, but Ice+Fighting Coverage is FAR better than Fire nukes that also make you suicide or Normal nukes that can be utterly walled by any ghost and make you lose some HP every turn.

* Komala: When you realize, Komala is basically a mini Snorlax with a few utility moves (Spin being the most interesting one, but also Wish, Toxic and Yawn), not being affected by Toxic Spikes and the ability to scare most spinblockers (they can't burn it and will be hit by a decently strong Shadow Claw), u can be pretty much sure that it will have a difficult time dropping from RU-NU where they keep the better Hazard removers.

* Palossand: This thing is bulky and also has reliable recovery, which will make it the premier switch in for Aqua Jets thanks to Water Compaction. Also, thanks to a pretty weird special coverage, can deal decent damage even with uninvested attacks.

* Mareanie: Sure, Tangela is bulkier and also has regenerator, but the problem with Tangela is that crappish defensive Grass typing, opposing to Mareanie's GREAT Defensive Water-Poison Typing, making it immune to Toxic, and having EIGHT resistances (Tangela has only 4), only three weaknesses (Tangela has five), a recovery move with 16 PP, and can Setup and remove Toxic Spikes... This is almost a different version of Ferroseed, that will probably not see the lights of PU...

* Bruxish: While this seems a little bit like Basculin, it actually has better coverage and it's difficult to revenge kill... It can also set up SD and clean with unstoppable Aqua Jets... Probably RU-NU at worst...


We are also gonna lose a few things IMO:
* Gigalith: this is almost impossible to kill thanks to its auto sand, and unless Sand it's banned in RU, NU, it will probably be a really good rocker (Actually while it might feel outclassed By Rhydon, I personally think they could be used together since Sand+Eviolite also makes Rhydon absurdly bulky on the special side)

* Dodrio: Heck, this is the new Staraptor... it might be better than Staraptor...

* Cryogonal: Now that it can deal with a few priority moves, it can easily get back to NU as a decent Spinner.

* Beartic: Increased Attack and a chance to increase speed? sure... this will be pretty much terrorizing RU-NU, thanks to mega or normal Obama...

* Bibarel: This will advance for sure, but not further than RU-NU... Strong STAB priority is nice to rip offense a +4, but it's bulk it's pretty much lacking for higher tiers.


Now, bout the things that I think we might keep but might have increased viability:
* Vanilluxe: even if 100% accurate Blizzards hurts, this doesn't have anything else... almost every single Steel type will keep shitting on this one... Sure, at least now has some viability.

* Pelipper and Torkoal: Probably Drought and Drizzle will get banned in UU this time instead of OU, but that will mean that we will keep this two in here...

* Masquerain: This one got a HUGE buff... now it can set up QD with ease, having to invest less on Speed and thanks to better coverage than most of the things that got QD. Also, Sticky Web shenanigans got better thanks to that increased speed, now probably being better than Leavanny.

* Bellossom: I'm actually liking this one... since it does have nice bulk for the tier, and semi reliable recovery, it can easily get a few QD boosts and deal massive damage. Sure, you are still walled by Steel types unless you run something like HP Fighting or HP Ground (Which leaves you utterly blocked by Flyers, specially Jumpluff) or HP Fire (which will make you hate Altaria). At least Grass - Fire - Fairy is decent coverage.

* Wormadam-T: While QD might sound like a joke, it can actually be used on this thing... Remember that Bug-Steel is a really amazing typing, and while 188 max speed is really low, at least at +2 is enough to outspeed threats like Floatzel and Zebby.

+2 160 SpA Wormadam-S Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zebstrika: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 160 SpA Wormadam-S Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 303-357 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

* Volbeat/Illumise: Freaking bulky bugs... the extra Bulk will help them setting up Sun and Rain. Also TG Passing will be decent to some things with great coverage.



About the things that we will get:
* Toucannon: This is IMO the best replacement or Dodrio. Strong Flyign and Normal Moves, at with Skill Link will also get decent coverage that will be cockblocked by Steel types.

* Oricorio Pom Pom: I'm not sure bout this because it is a decent offensive-defensive typing. With Defog, I could see this as a mini Zapdos... without it, it could be a better offensive Rotom-Air.

* Oricorio Baile: that huge SR weakness will undermine it heavily... at least will not be blocked by Steel types... only by Rock types

* Oricorio Sensu: this is completely outclassed by Xatu in NU so, I'm SURE this one will be PU... Not a good one, since it feels outclassed even by Swoobat.

* Oricorio Pau: And this one might be NU because it's typing its good and it's stronger and relatively faster than Drifblim (also with a Stronger Shadow Ball), but if it falls, will be pretty good in here.

* Oranguru: Grumpig Who?

* Fletchinder: I dunno... I can't feel this could be good enough even to carve a niche in PU with that Gale Wings nerf...

* Gumshoos: Adaptability Band Normal SPAM FTW.

* Togedemaru: actually this could be decent... while its bulk its sad, Steel-Electric is decent as a defensive typing. Fell Stinger and Paraflinch Shenanigans will make it troubling for some teams.

* Pyukumuku: I feel that this will be absolutely crap or it might be banned for teambuilding constraints because it can baton pass curses easily... I dunno...

* Primeape: I feel that Passimian might make this drop... or maybe Passimian will be dropping... either could be easily a top rank pokémon or a candidate for a suspect...

* A-Raticate: I personally think this one is an improvement over normal Raticate. Higher damage output on Dark moves, it's better than higher damage on normal ones. Normal Rati was also not fast enough to terrorize PU so, the speed drop doesn't matter that much. I tried a Thick Fat Resttalk set with Bulk Up and Crunch and it can be a decent wincon after the fighting types are out of the play, thanks to those two immunities and three good resistances.

* A-Grimer: While not a huge influence, just the virtues of Knock Off and its typing, will carve it a niche, especially since it can Knock Off disgusting Eviolite users like Clefairy and Machoke, without being obliterated by their STABs... Also, since I expect Machoke to be again a meta defining mon, Grimer will love the new influx of psychic types...

* Machoke: I'm almost sure this one will be back thanks to the confusion nerf and will be again a defining force. Hello again Blanket check to everything! Hello Again myriad of Strong birds and Psychic pokes

* Hakamo-o: This one might kick Fraxure down, because while it does have lower attacking Stats, it does have better abilities AND STAB combo... better defenses will also make it better at setupping Dragon Dance, and if it gets Shell Smash (Kommo-o Can use it on the battle tree, but it's still unknown how can it get it, maybe tutors on Gen 4 Remakes), it can break through a lot of things just with Dual STAB + Poison Jab.

* Dartrix: I feel this one be like Prinplup, a pretty decent bulky defogger. Nothing too special, but at least this one while not having the overhyped Scald, at least has reliable recovery and immunity to spikes and toxic spikes. Being able to scare Golem and Relicanth with Special moves is also a nice thing.


See ya guys!
 
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Hey Guys... sorry for the long absence but I was having a rough time (For a short story, I was forced to quit my job, and move from my country... I'm now living in Argentina!)

I would like to discuss a few things here as an avid PU player (avid, not good):

Based on a few comments that I saw earlier on this thread and seeing upper metagames (OU Beta and UU Alpha), We are NOT getting:

* A-Persian: It's as bulky as Furfrou but with A LOT MORE options, especially supporting ones. Z-Parting Shot will be more than enough to make it RU or NU at least, considering that Dark isn't exactly a bad typing and it can even setup NPs in front of a few things in upper tiers.

* Wishiwashi: Heck, we all know its ability is pretty much crap, but that bulk - power is too much for PU... While a lot of things are even more powerful or bulkier than this one, they DO NOT have that spectacular Water typing...

* Almost every form of Silvally: This thing has Physical STAB for every Type + Dark/Steel/Rock/Ghost/Bug/Dragon/Normal/Fangs Coverage (And Swords Dance) and Boltbeam/Water/Flying/Ghost/Fire/Normal (And Draco Meteor) for Special Sets... Heck even crappy typings like Rock will have a rough time getting this low (90BP 100% Accurate Rock STAB isn't bad at all, especially at +2). The only ones that could potentially be here are just Bug (because that typing just suscks offensively and defensively) and Grass (it's pretty much outclassed by Leafeon with the same speed, a lot more special bulk but less physical bulk and no recovery). Psychic isn't outclassed by Mesprit because it can setup, has a better physical STAB and they ultimately do different things (it han do UTurn and PShot Pivoting) and Ice while it's like the worst defensive Typing, gives Silvally one of the best offensive STABs (90 BP 100% accurate Ice STAB with no Drawbacks) with also having the chance for setup.

* A-Dugtrio: There is a lot of things that this thing can do in upper tiers. Ground + Steel can remedy its low bulk (see how bulky is Excadrill) and 100/110 offensive stats are pretty good. It can even work as a fast SR setter, something pretty much appreciated in RU and NU tiers (it outclasses Archeops on that, thanks to a better typing I think). Oh and since Dug will probably keep being OU until they ban Arena Trap, A-Dug can be a pretty nice replacement there.

* Type Null: This thing is disgustingly bulky and it can setup SD easily or even go with Resttalk shenanigans... Who cares about coverage when you can blank check a lot of shit and then keep chipping damage? Even if it gets down to PU, lets see a pretty nice calc:
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Type-Null: 212-252 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Munchlax Return vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 246-291 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

* A-Marowak: I guess you all realized this didn't even drop to UU, but even if it does someday, isn't getting to PU just because its typing is so much better than plain ground to check things and it is still strong enough to deal massive damage thanks to Thick Club. Also with Lighting Rod, A-Maro has three immunities and can't be burned... pretty much an improvement.

* Lycanrock Night: This thing isn't as bad as a lot of people wants to make it. Slightly higher bulk will allow it to use Double Dance sets, it still has a decent speed tier for Rock Polishing without a lot of investment (leaving more room for bulk), while not perfect, Stone Edge - Brick Break Coverage isn't bad (and will be breaking a lot of stuff at +2), it has priority (SPunch) and can even do Rocks and Taunt. I personally see this as an improved version of Stoutland outside of Sand.
+2 252+ Atk Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 195-231 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Not bad I guess

* Lurantis: while not as bulky as Serperior (just by a little margin) and obviously not as fast, Lurantis can still wallbreak pretty easily not only using Contrary-Leaf Storm but also going with SD Physical Sets. I think this one will probably be kept by NU, considering they usually have a slower metagame than upper tiers. 200+ Speed was more than enough for wallbreaking there in ORAS so...

* Turtonator: This thing is pretty much like Carracosta... however 36 Base Speed at +2 can outspeed base 115-120 (something that Carracosta can't) and Fire-Dragon while weak to Rocks, it's slightly better defensive-offensive combo than Water-Rock (No 4x Weakness, two 4x resistances opposing to one on Costa) and has dual type STAB Nukes (Draco Meteor and Overheat). No priority hurts, but I personally think this one will be NU also (NU doesn't have many viable dragons also).

* Drampa: This thing will also be kept by NU... think about it as a slower but more powerful Exploud, because it has basically the same huge coverage and power.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering Hyper Voice BP is less than 3/4 of Boomburst, I think the damage is pretty good...

* Araquanid: Another thing that will not be here... UU wants it and if they drop it, RU will not let it go lower... Water Bubble is just too op... Heck, we might not even get Dewpider (almost 400 base attack using Water type moves and with a decent defensive typing + decent bulk due to eviolite)

* A-Raichu: New typing + More Coverage + Ways to past Special Walls + the same shenanigans normal Raichu has (Encore, Surf and that kind of things), this will probably be stolen by NU or maybe even RU... BTW even if Koko does't get banned, I think A-Raichu will eventually drop to lower tiers, much like Stoutland did. Just not low enough for us to enjoy it.

* A-Sandslash: No... two 4x weaknesses did not made Aggron to drop from NU... it will not make A-Sandslash drop either. Also as a Slush Rush sweeper with impecable coverage in Just one STAB and EQ, and considering it can also get Knock Off, Swords Dance, Iron Head, heck it can even recover a little bit of health with Leech Life...

* Crabominable: while slow and not bulky, this thing has such an amazing offensive STAB combo, that I doubt higher tiers will lend it to us. sure, it has bad bulk, bad speed and crappish defensive typing like Flareon and Stoutland, but Ice+Fighting Coverage is FAR better than Fire nukes that also make you suicide or Normal nukes that can be utterly walled by any ghost and make you lose some HP every turn.

* Komala: When you realize, Komala is basically a mini Snorlax with a few utility moves (Spin being the most interesting one, but also Wish, Toxic and Yawn), not being affected by Toxic Spikes and the ability to scare most spinblockers (they can't burn it and will be hit by a decently strong Shadow Claw), u can be pretty much sure that it will have a difficult time dropping from RU-NU where they keep the better Hazard removers.

* Palossand: This thing is bulky and also has reliable recovery, which will make it the premier switch in for Aqua Jets thanks to Water Compaction. Also, thanks to a pretty weird special coverage, can deal decent damage even with uninvested attacks.

* Mareanie: Sure, Tangela is bulkier and also has regenerator, but the problem with Tangela is that crappish defensive Grass typing, opposing to Mareanie's GREAT Defensive Water-Poison Typing, making it immune to Toxic, and having EIGHT resistances (Tangela has only 4), only three weaknesses (Tangela has five), a recovery move with 16 PP, and can Setup and remove Toxic Spikes... This is almost a different version of Ferroseed, that will probably not see the lights of PU...

* Bruxish: While this seems a little bit like Basculin, it actually has better coverage and it's difficult to revenge kill... It can also set up SD and clean with unstoppable Aqua Jets... Probably RU-NU at worst...
You a couple things still wrong here, overall solid list but just...wow the justification for some honestly completely shit mons is off putting.

Lurantis has no hope of being in a higher tier other then being a new mon to play with. Literally any set outside of a defog set is outclassed by a better Grass-Type out there (when your SD set is outclassed by pokemon like Happy Dino you are in fact shit) and even as a defogger the mon is extremely hard to justify over solid removal options overall.

Lycanroc-Midnight has the potential of being a terrifying mon in PU however its a complete shitmon in other tiers. Piss weak coverage makes it extremely difficult to break pass many notable Rock resists in other tiers and its another pokemon that is very hard to justify over other rock types particularly Archeops,Kabutops and in particular DoubleDance Rhydon.

Silvally is another pokemon which while i can agree is hard to pinpoint which types will end up here saying all are good pokemon is giving it way too much merit. In the end all Silvally types face there own issues with competition in other pokemon. The inability to hold a boosting item (if not normal) severely hurt its mass potential especially considering memory drives, unlike plates, do not boost its stab moves. As of this moment some Silvally types that are fairly likely to not drop are Normal,Water,Steel and Fairy outside of that the rest are fair game for the time being due to the previous mentioned issue. I have no idea how Silvally-Type will affect PU however im not going to pretend all of its forms are good/decent pokemon in higher tiers when the majority have been pitiful so far for other tiers when compared to other pokemon of same/similar typing.

I agree A-Dugtrio is likely to end up in RU/NU due to being a decent mon in its own right but it does not get Stealth Rock for the time being.

Mareanie is a weird mon and i haven't seen much talk about it the only response i got from NU is literally meh and while it has the potential on stall/bulky builds in other tiers its hard to say it will not drop to PU for sure.

The rest are either painfully obvious to never drop such as Alolan-Marowak or something that on paper looked like an obvious one but has shown potential in practice such as Alolan-Persian.

Good to see you back Renny, sorry to hear about the rough patch hope you get back on your feet with grace and ease.

See Ya!

Edit - Linoone is better then bibarel btw just saying.
 
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Hey Guys... sorry for the long absence but I was having a rough time (For a short story, I was forced to quit my job, and move from my country... I'm now living in Argentina!)

I would like to discuss a few things here as an avid PU player (avid, not good ):

Based on a few comments that I saw earlier on this thread and seeing upper metagames (OU Beta and UU Alpha), We are NOT getting:

* A-Persian: It's as bulky as Furfrou but with A LOT MORE options, especially supporting ones. Z-Parting Shot will be more than enough to make it RU or NU at least, considering that Dark isn't exactly a bad typing and it can even setup NPs in front of a few things in upper tiers.

* Wishiwashi: Heck, we all know its ability is pretty much crap, but that bulk - power is too much for PU... While a lot of things are even more powerful or bulkier than this one, they DO NOT have that spectacular Water typing...

* Almost every form of Silvally: This thing has Physical STAB for every Type + Dark/Steel/Rock/Ghost/Bug/Dragon/Normal/Fangs Coverage (And Swords Dance) and Boltbeam/Water/Flying/Ghost/Fire/Normal (And Draco Meteor) for Special Sets... Heck even crappy typings like Rock will have a rough time getting this low (90BP 100% Accurate Rock STAB isn't bad at all, especially at +2). The only ones that could potentially be here are just Bug (because that typing just suscks offensively and defensively) and Grass (it's pretty much outclassed by Leafeon with the same speed, a lot more special bulk but less physical bulk and no recovery). Psychic isn't outclassed by Mesprit because it can setup, has a better physical STAB and they ultimately do different things (it han do UTurn and PShot Pivoting) and Ice while it's like the worst defensive Typing, gives Silvally one of the best offensive STABs (90 BP 100% accurate Ice STAB with no Drawbacks) with also having the chance for setup.

* A-Dugtrio: There is a lot of things that this thing can do in upper tiers. Ground + Steel can remedy its low bulk (see how bulky is Excadrill) and 100/110 offensive stats are pretty good. It can even work as a fast SR setter, something pretty much appreciated in RU and NU tiers (it outclasses Archeops on that, thanks to a better typing I think). Oh and since Dug will probably keep being OU until they ban Arena Trap, A-Dug can be a pretty nice replacement there.

* Type Null: This thing is disgustingly bulky and it can setup SD easily or even go with Resttalk shenanigans... Who cares about coverage when you can blank check a lot of shit and then keep chipping damage? Even if it gets down to PU, lets see a pretty nice calc:
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Type-Null: 212-252 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Munchlax Return vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 246-291 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

* A-Marowak: I guess you all realized this didn't even drop to UU, but even if it does someday, isn't getting to PU just because its typing is so much better than plain ground to check things and it is still strong enough to deal massive damage thanks to Thick Club. Also with Lighting Rod, A-Maro has three immunities and can't be burned... pretty much an improvement.

* Lycanrock Night: This thing isn't as bad as a lot of people wants to make it. Slightly higher bulk will allow it to use Double Dance sets, it still has a decent speed tier for Rock Polishing without a lot of investment (leaving more room for bulk), while not perfect, Stone Edge - Brick Break Coverage isn't bad (and will be breaking a lot of stuff at +2), it has priority (SPunch) and can even do Rocks and Taunt. I personally see this as an improved version of Stoutland outside of Sand.
+2 252+ Atk Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 195-231 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Not bad I guess

* Lurantis: while not as bulky as Serperior (just by a little margin) and obviously not as fast, Lurantis can still wallbreak pretty easily not only using Contrary-Leaf Storm but also going with SD Physical Sets. I think this one will probably be kept by NU, considering they usually have a slower metagame than upper tiers. 200+ Speed was more than enough for wallbreaking there in ORAS so...

* Turtonator: This thing is pretty much like Carracosta... however 36 Base Speed at +2 can outspeed base 115-120 (something that Carracosta can't) and Fire-Dragon while weak to Rocks, it's slightly better defensive-offensive combo than Water-Rock (No 4x Weakness, two 4x resistances opposing to one on Costa) and has dual type STAB Nukes (Draco Meteor and Overheat). No priority hurts, but I personally think this one will be NU also (NU doesn't have many viable dragons also).

* Drampa: This thing will also be kept by NU... think about it as a slower but more powerful Exploud, because it has basically the same huge coverage and power.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering Hyper Voice BP is less than 3/4 of Boomburst, I think the damage is pretty good...

* Araquanid: Another thing that will not be here... UU wants it and if they drop it, RU will not let it go lower... Water Bubble is just too op... Heck, we might not even get Dewpider (almost 400 base attack using Water type moves and with a decent defensive typing + decent bulk due to eviolite)

* A-Raichu: New typing + More Coverage + Ways to past Special Walls + the same shenanigans normal Raichu has (Encore, Surf and that kind of things), this will probably be stolen by NU or maybe even RU... BTW even if Koko does't get banned, I think A-Raichu will eventually drop to lower tiers, much like Stoutland did. Just not low enough for us to enjoy it.

* A-Sandslash: No... two 4x weaknesses did not made Aggron to drop from NU... it will not make A-Sandslash drop either. Also as a Slush Rush sweeper with impecable coverage in Just one STAB and EQ, and considering it can also get Knock Off, Swords Dance, Iron Head, heck it can even recover a little bit of health with Leech Life...

* Crabominable: while slow and not bulky, this thing has such an amazing offensive STAB combo, that I doubt higher tiers will lend it to us. sure, it has bad bulk, bad speed and crappish defensive typing like Flareon and Stoutland, but Ice+Fighting Coverage is FAR better than Fire nukes that also make you suicide or Normal nukes that can be utterly walled by any ghost and make you lose some HP every turn.

* Komala: When you realize, Komala is basically a mini Snorlax with a few utility moves (Spin being the most interesting one, but also Wish, Toxic and Yawn), not being affected by Toxic Spikes and the ability to scare most spinblockers (they can't burn it and will be hit by a decently strong Shadow Claw), u can be pretty much sure that it will have a difficult time dropping from RU-NU where they keep the better Hazard removers.

* Palossand: This thing is bulky and also has reliable recovery, which will make it the premier switch in for Aqua Jets thanks to Water Compaction. Also, thanks to a pretty weird special coverage, can deal decent damage even with uninvested attacks.

* Mareanie: Sure, Tangela is bulkier and also has regenerator, but the problem with Tangela is that crappish defensive Grass typing, opposing to Mareanie's GREAT Defensive Water-Poison Typing, making it immune to Toxic, and having EIGHT resistances (Tangela has only 4), only three weaknesses (Tangela has five), a recovery move with 16 PP, and can Setup and remove Toxic Spikes... This is almost a different version of Ferroseed, that will probably not see the lights of PU...

* Bruxish: While this seems a little bit like Basculin, it actually has better coverage and it's difficult to revenge kill... It can also set up SD and clean with unstoppable Aqua Jets... Probably RU-NU at worst...


We are also gonna lose a few things IMO:
* Gigalith: this is almost impossible to kill thanks to its auto sand, and unless Sand it's banned in RU, NU, it will probably be a really good rocker (Actually while it might feel outclassed By Rhydon, I personally think they could be used together since Sand+Eviolite also makes Rhydon absurdly bulky on the special side)

* Dodrio: Heck, this is the new Staraptor... it might be better than Staraptor...

* Cryogonal: Now that it can deal with a few priority moves, it can easily get back to NU as a decent Spinner.

* Beartic: Increased Attack and a chance to increase speed? sure... this will be pretty much terrorizing RU-NU, thanks to mega or normal Obama...
* Bibarel: This will advance for sure, but not further than RU-NU... Strong STAB priority is nice to rip offense a +4, but it's bulk it's pretty much lacking for higher tiers.


Now, bout the things that I think we might keep but might have increased viability:
* Vanilluxe: even if 100% accurate Blizzards hurts, this doesn't have anything else... almost every single Steel type will keep shitting on this one... Sure, at least now has some viability.

* Pelipper and Torkoal: Probably Drought and Drizzle will get banned in UU this time instead of OU, but that will mean that we will keep this two in here...

* Masquerain: This one got a HUGE buff... now it can set up QD with ease, having to invest less on Speed and thanks to better coverage than most of the things that got QD. Also, Sticky Web shenanigans got better thanks to that increased speed, now probably being better than Leavanny.



* Toucannon: This is IMO the best replacement or Dodrio
While drizzle will probably be banned in UU and below, Pelipper is currently OU by usage, and given how popular rain is at the moment there, I don't see it dropping anytime soon(same goes for kingdra). However, I agree with you on torkoal if sun gets banned as well(RU might claim it otherwise). The rest of your list looks quite accurate though.
 
Thanks guys for your responses! :3

I think I'm pretty much rusty because I did a few brainfarts with Lycan being utterly outclassed by Kabu (I don't think that Archeops and Lycan can be comparable, but that's debatable) and AloDug (It sucks not getting Rocks U_U), however I might discuss a few things about Lurantis and Silvally.

About Lurantis, Physical sets will just be something like a novelty or something to lure a few things that could wall a special set, I tried to mention it only as gimmicky things, because the bread and butter of Lurantis will almost always be the Contrary Leaf Storm set with Defog support. However this set even if it's almost mandatory, it can be pretty much powerful, and will be more than enough to break walls in NU (maybe even some in RU):

252 SpA Lurantis Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 94-112 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- 62.7% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Lurantis Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 187-222 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Lurantis Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 280-331 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lurantis: 78-93 (27.7 - 33%) -- 83.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Dino is one of the sturdiest walls in NU and in a 1Vs1 Lurantis can break it, and if Dino tries to get in after the first boost, it will get 2HKOed easily, even at maximum SPDef investment. Sure, base 45 Speed still sucks, but who cares, when you can still outspeed walls and bop them?

About Silvally, while it can't get Leftovers or Life Orb on anything not Normal, it still has Swords Dance and 95/95/95 is really good bulk, even uninvested to setup. Parting Shot Shenanigans are also good on a few typings. Let's see them individually (Excepting Water, Ghost, Steel, Normal and Fairy that might be pretty much self explanatory):

* Bug: One of the worst. Weak to rocks, Bad STAB. This one totally feels PU.

* Rock: While it might again feel outclassed by other Rock Types in RU-NU, it does have a few advantages over Rhydon, Kabutops and Archeops. Silvally is faster than the former two and much bulkier than the latter, with also no 4x weaknesses. Silvally also has better special bulk, ergo, making it easier to set up Swords Dances against a few more things that might OHKO-2HKO Rhydon or Kabutops. Also 100% accurate 90 BP Rock STAB is nice to have. I feel this could have a niche in NU but might drop because it will still struggle against most steel types.

* Ground: This one is actually pretty good, because it does have most of the advantages mentioned before against Rhydon, but now it also has a SR Resistance and Silvally gets Rock Slide to get complete EdgeQuake combo. And then it can Sub, Shadow Claw for Rotom, Iron Head for Jynx and Mega Dino, or even X-Scissor for Mesprit, Jynx, Lilligant and Shiftry. Heck it can even go mixed and use Flamethrower to bop Steelix.

* Poison: Another not so good - not so bad. It can absorb T-Spikes and provide some support with accurate toxic and decent defensive typing. Multiattack + Crunch does have decent coverage also, letting it come in and out with Parting Shot.

* Flying: I totally missed this one... this will also be PU almost surely, because its pretty much outclassed by a lot of things... It feels like a bulkier Fearow, which is't particularly outstanding. I guess this could be a Special Biased Silvally with Air Slash and Thunder Wave for Paraflinch Shenanigans.

* Fighting: I Like Fighting/Dark Coverage + SD. It's bulky to get the SD and it's faster than most of the Fighting Types in NU (and RU to an Extent), so it should stay there.

* Electric: This might feel outclassed by Electivire, until you realize Silvally can boost and Vire don't...
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Audino: 152-179 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Audino: 195-229 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Its also bulkier, doesn't get recoil on its STAB and get Ice Coverage for boltbeam (Weaker but it's something).

* Psychic: Like I've said before, NU doesn't have a physical oriented psychic mon, Mesprit is like the most similar, but while it does have better Stats overall, Mesprit usually doesn't run physical sets, and it can't boost on those either. Being able to ditch a good hit on some huge threats like Hitmonchan, Gurdurr and Garbodor, while also having X-Scissor for boping other Psychics it's a pretty nice thing to have (something like Mesprit and Mushy have been using for a long time on the special side)

* Ice: This is a crappy defensive typing for sure, but offensively has always being marvelous and not a lot of Ice Types could boost. The ones that could are also terribly slow and not bulky like Beartic and A-Sandslash outside of Slush Rush Hail. Might fall, might keep firing Boosted Physical Ice Beams in NU.

* Fire: This one might also fall to PU... While Fire/Electric coverage is nice, I feel that this time the Electric Coverage will get more usage than in other cases like Ghost and Ice and being pretty weak without a few boosts, will not help... Also the scariest Water types in NU will wreck this thing (Floatzel, Carracosta and Barbaracle).

* Dragon: Dragon is actually a decent defensive type, resisting Water, Electric, Grass and Fire (Basically laughing against most Magmortars and Lilligants). Also, Dragon/Dark/Steel is a pretty offensive combo. Oh and NU doesn't have fast Dragons, which will mean this will be there or higher for sure.

* Grass: Another one that sucks... why would you use this instead of Leafeon? Under PU for Sure...

* Dark: This one Is like a variation of the Dragon Type, with a different set of resistances. Not as good though, however and actually I feel this one might also fall to PU...

So, in the End, I feel that the Silvally forms that have a high chance to be PU are: Bug, Grass, Fire, Dark and Flying, with Poison, Ice and Rock being a maybe.
 
About Lurantis, you'd be better running Servine who's bulkier, has better MU vs non-defensive playstyles (come on, it outspeeds one of NU's speed benchmarks in base 80), has Knock Off to further cripple possible switch ins and is just a better mon in the 'wallbreaker' sense. Lurantis' niche is solely Defog tbh
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hey Guys... sorry for the long absence but I was having a rough time (For a short story, I was forced to quit my job, and move from my country... I'm now living in Argentina!)

I would like to discuss a few things here as an avid PU player (avid, not good):

Based on a few comments that I saw earlier on this thread and seeing upper metagames (OU Beta and UU Alpha), We are NOT getting:

* A-Persian: It's as bulky as Furfrou but with A LOT MORE options, especially supporting ones. Z-Parting Shot will be more than enough to make it RU or NU at least, considering that Dark isn't exactly a bad typing and it can even setup NPs in front of a few things in upper tiers.

* Wishiwashi: Heck, we all know its ability is pretty much crap, but that bulk - power is too much for PU... While a lot of things are even more powerful or bulkier than this one, they DO NOT have that spectacular Water typing...

* Almost every form of Silvally: This thing has Physical STAB for every Type + Dark/Steel/Rock/Ghost/Bug/Dragon/Normal/Fangs Coverage (And Swords Dance) and Boltbeam/Water/Flying/Ghost/Fire/Normal (And Draco Meteor) for Special Sets... Heck even crappy typings like Rock will have a rough time getting this low (90BP 100% Accurate Rock STAB isn't bad at all, especially at +2). The only ones that could potentially be here are just Bug (because that typing just suscks offensively and defensively) and Grass (it's pretty much outclassed by Leafeon with the same speed, a lot more special bulk but less physical bulk and no recovery). Psychic isn't outclassed by Mesprit because it can setup, has a better physical STAB and they ultimately do different things (it han do UTurn and PShot Pivoting) and Ice while it's like the worst defensive Typing, gives Silvally one of the best offensive STABs (90 BP 100% accurate Ice STAB with no Drawbacks) with also having the chance for setup.

* A-Dugtrio: There is a lot of things that this thing can do in upper tiers. Ground + Steel can remedy its low bulk (see how bulky is Excadrill) and 100/110 offensive stats are pretty good. It can even work as a fast SR setter, something pretty much appreciated in RU and NU tiers (it outclasses Archeops on that, thanks to a better typing I think). Oh and since Dug will probably keep being OU until they ban Arena Trap, A-Dug can be a pretty nice replacement there.

* Type Null: This thing is disgustingly bulky and it can setup SD easily or even go with Resttalk shenanigans... Who cares about coverage when you can blank check a lot of shit and then keep chipping damage? Even if it gets down to PU, lets see a pretty nice calc:
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Type-Null: 212-252 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Munchlax Return vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 246-291 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

* A-Marowak: I guess you all realized this didn't even drop to UU, but even if it does someday, isn't getting to PU just because its typing is so much better than plain ground to check things and it is still strong enough to deal massive damage thanks to Thick Club. Also with Lighting Rod, A-Maro has three immunities and can't be burned... pretty much an improvement.

* Lycanrock Night: This thing isn't as bad as a lot of people wants to make it. Slightly higher bulk will allow it to use Double Dance sets, it still has a decent speed tier for Rock Polishing without a lot of investment (leaving more room for bulk), while not perfect, Stone Edge - Brick Break Coverage isn't bad (and will be breaking a lot of stuff at +2), it has priority (SPunch) and can even do Rocks and Taunt. I personally see this as an improved version of Stoutland outside of Sand.
+2 252+ Atk Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 195-231 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Not bad I guess

* Lurantis: while not as bulky as Serperior (just by a little margin) and obviously not as fast, Lurantis can still wallbreak pretty easily not only using Contrary-Leaf Storm but also going with SD Physical Sets. I think this one will probably be kept by NU, considering they usually have a slower metagame than upper tiers. 200+ Speed was more than enough for wallbreaking there in ORAS so...

* Turtonator: This thing is pretty much like Carracosta... however 36 Base Speed at +2 can outspeed base 115-120 (something that Carracosta can't) and Fire-Dragon while weak to Rocks, it's slightly better defensive-offensive combo than Water-Rock (No 4x Weakness, two 4x resistances opposing to one on Costa) and has dual type STAB Nukes (Draco Meteor and Overheat). No priority hurts, but I personally think this one will be NU also (NU doesn't have many viable dragons also).

* Drampa: This thing will also be kept by NU... think about it as a slower but more powerful Exploud, because it has basically the same huge coverage and power.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering Hyper Voice BP is less than 3/4 of Boomburst, I think the damage is pretty good...

* Araquanid: Another thing that will not be here... UU wants it and if they drop it, RU will not let it go lower... Water Bubble is just too op... Heck, we might not even get Dewpider (almost 400 base attack using Water type moves and with a decent defensive typing + decent bulk due to eviolite)

* A-Raichu: New typing + More Coverage + Ways to past Special Walls + the same shenanigans normal Raichu has (Encore, Surf and that kind of things), this will probably be stolen by NU or maybe even RU... BTW even if Koko does't get banned, I think A-Raichu will eventually drop to lower tiers, much like Stoutland did. Just not low enough for us to enjoy it.

* A-Sandslash: No... two 4x weaknesses did not made Aggron to drop from NU... it will not make A-Sandslash drop either. Also as a Slush Rush sweeper with impecable coverage in Just one STAB and EQ, and considering it can also get Knock Off, Swords Dance, Iron Head, heck it can even recover a little bit of health with Leech Life...

* Crabominable: while slow and not bulky, this thing has such an amazing offensive STAB combo, that I doubt higher tiers will lend it to us. sure, it has bad bulk, bad speed and crappish defensive typing like Flareon and Stoutland, but Ice+Fighting Coverage is FAR better than Fire nukes that also make you suicide or Normal nukes that can be utterly walled by any ghost and make you lose some HP every turn.

* Komala: When you realize, Komala is basically a mini Snorlax with a few utility moves (Spin being the most interesting one, but also Wish, Toxic and Yawn), not being affected by Toxic Spikes and the ability to scare most spinblockers (they can't burn it and will be hit by a decently strong Shadow Claw), u can be pretty much sure that it will have a difficult time dropping from RU-NU where they keep the better Hazard removers.

* Palossand: This thing is bulky and also has reliable recovery, which will make it the premier switch in for Aqua Jets thanks to Water Compaction. Also, thanks to a pretty weird special coverage, can deal decent damage even with uninvested attacks.

* Mareanie: Sure, Tangela is bulkier and also has regenerator, but the problem with Tangela is that crappish defensive Grass typing, opposing to Mareanie's GREAT Defensive Water-Poison Typing, making it immune to Toxic, and having EIGHT resistances (Tangela has only 4), only three weaknesses (Tangela has five), a recovery move with 16 PP, and can Setup and remove Toxic Spikes... This is almost a different version of Ferroseed, that will probably not see the lights of PU...

* Bruxish: While this seems a little bit like Basculin, it actually has better coverage and it's difficult to revenge kill... It can also set up SD and clean with unstoppable Aqua Jets... Probably RU-NU at worst...


We are also gonna lose a few things IMO:
* Gigalith: this is almost impossible to kill thanks to its auto sand, and unless Sand it's banned in RU, NU, it will probably be a really good rocker (Actually while it might feel outclassed By Rhydon, I personally think they could be used together since Sand+Eviolite also makes Rhydon absurdly bulky on the special side)

* Dodrio: Heck, this is the new Staraptor... it might be better than Staraptor...

* Cryogonal: Now that it can deal with a few priority moves, it can easily get back to NU as a decent Spinner.

* Beartic: Increased Attack and a chance to increase speed? sure... this will be pretty much terrorizing RU-NU, thanks to mega or normal Obama...

* Bibarel: This will advance for sure, but not further than RU-NU... Strong STAB priority is nice to rip offense a +4, but it's bulk it's pretty much lacking for higher tiers.


Now, bout the things that I think we might keep but might have increased viability:
* Vanilluxe: even if 100% accurate Blizzards hurts, this doesn't have anything else... almost every single Steel type will keep shitting on this one... Sure, at least now has some viability.

* Pelipper and Torkoal: Probably Drought and Drizzle will get banned in UU this time instead of OU, but that will mean that we will keep this two in here...

* Masquerain: This one got a HUGE buff... now it can set up QD with ease, having to invest less on Speed and thanks to better coverage than most of the things that got QD. Also, Sticky Web shenanigans got better thanks to that increased speed, now probably being better than Leavanny.

* Bellossom: I'm actually liking this one... since it does have nice bulk for the tier, and semi reliable recovery, it can easily get a few QD boosts and deal massive damage. Sure, you are still walled by Steel types unless you run something like HP Fighting or HP Ground (Which leaves you utterly blocked by Flyers, specially Jumpluff) or HP Fire (which will make you hate Altaria). At least Grass - Fire - Fairy is decent coverage.

* Wormadam-T: While QD might sound like a joke, it can actually be used on this thing... Remember that Bug-Steel is a really amazing typing, and while 188 max speed is really low, at least at +2 is enough to outspeed threats like Floatzel and Zebby.

+2 160 SpA Wormadam-S Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zebstrika: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 160 SpA Wormadam-S Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 303-357 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

* Volbeat/Illumise: Freaking bulky bugs... the extra Bulk will help them setting up Sun and Rain. Also TG Passing will be decent to some things with great coverage.



About the things that we will get:
* Toucannon: This is IMO the best replacement or Dodrio. Strong Flyign and Normal Moves, at with Skill Link will also get decent coverage that will be cockblocked by Steel types.

* Oricorio Pom Pom: I'm not sure bout this because it is a decent offensive-defensive typing. With Defog, I could see this as a mini Zapdos... without it, it could be a better offensive Rotom-Air.

* Oricorio Baile: that huge SR weakness will undermine it heavily... at least will not be blocked by Steel types... only by Rock types

* Oricorio Pau: this is completely outclassed by Xatu in NU so, I'm SURE this one will be PU... Not a good one, since it feels outclassed even by Swoobat.

* Oricorio Sensu: And this one might be NU because it's typing its good and it's stronger and relatively faster than Drifblim (also with a Stronger Shadow Ball), but if it falls, will be pretty good in here.

* Oranguru: Grumpig Who?

* Fletchinder: I dunno... I can't feel this could be good enough even to carve a niche in PU with that Gale Wings nerf...

* Gumshoos: Adaptability Band Normal SPAM FTW.

* Togedemaru: actually this could be decent... while its bulk its sad, Steel-Electric is decent as a defensive typing. Fell Stinger and Paraflinch Shenanigans will make it troubling for some teams.

* Pyukumuku: I feel that this will be absolutely crap or it might be banned for teambuilding constraints because it can baton pass curses easily... I dunno...

* Primeape: I feel that Passimian might make this drop... or maybe Passimian will be dropping... either could be easily a top rank pokémon or a candidate for a suspect...

* A-Raticate: I personally think this one is an improvement over normal Raticate. Higher damage output on Dark moves, it's better than higher damage on normal ones. Normal Rati was also not fast enough to terrorize PU so, the speed drop doesn't matter that much. I tried a Thick Fat Resttalk set with Bulk Up and Crunch and it can be a decent wincon after the fighting types are out of the play, thanks to those two immunities and three good resistances.

* A-Grimer: While not a huge influence, just the virtues of Knock Off and its typing, will carve it a niche, especially since it can Knock Off disgusting Eviolite users like Clefairy and Machoke, without being obliterated by their STABs... Also, since I expect Machoke to be again a meta defining mon, Grimer will love the new influx of psychic types...

* Machoke: I'm almost sure this one will be back thanks to the confusion nerf and will be again a defining force. Hello again Blanket check to everything! Hello Again myriad of Strong birds and Psychic pokes

* Hakamo-o: This one might kick Fraxure down, because while it does have lower attacking Stats, it does have better abilities AND STAB combo... better defenses will also make it better at setupping Dragon Dance, and if it gets Shell Smash (Kommo-o Can use it on the battle tree, but it's still unknown how can it get it, maybe tutors on Gen 4 Remakes), it can break through a lot of things just with Dual STAB + Poison Jab.

* Dartrix: I feel this one be like Prinplup, a pretty decent bulky defogger. Nothing too special, but at least this one while not having the overhyped Scald, at least has reliable recovery and immunity to spikes and toxic spikes. Being able to scare Golem and Relicanth with Special moves is also a nice thing.


See ya guys!
From my SM NU experience, ALL of the silvally forms will come here. They really suck in SM NU and the only one that is even close to viable is Specs Silvally-Normal. The rest will come here and will still face lots of competition from many other mons in the tier. Wishiwashi is likely coming here too, I've stated my argument for this many times over. As hard as it hits, the fact that it just needs to take one-two hits to make it useless + the fact that it is slow means that it likely won't be great in other tiers. I don't understand why people think this is good. Lycanroc-Midnight is also coming here for the reasons stated by others- there's no reason to use it over stuff like Archeops. However, this mon will be a top-tier threat in PU and likely will make people run sturdy rock resists. Luckily Machoke will be back so that won't be hard. Lurantis is coming here also. I doubt we will lose beartic because hail doesn't look that great still honestly... but I could be wrong.

Type:Null I'm unsure about, I bet you it will be here too just because of how mediocre Normal-type mons are in NU- mainly this faces competition from stuff like Kangaskhan. Turtonator I'm also unsure, but its stats remind me of Carracosta and also its movepool is awesome, I could easily see this being either NU or PU. Mareanie I could definitely see here, it really depends on metagame trends. A-Raichu, A-Sandslash... also unsure. I'm pretty sure we're getting Palossand, Crabominable, and Komala, but I could easily be wrong, and your reasoning is kinda bad especially for Komala.

Why are you even talking about Bruxish... lol ridiculous mons. Also Hakamo-o is worse than Fraxure even with fighting stab tbh. Dartrix won't be great also honestly, mostly because it is yet another Defogger that is weak to rocks. Its nice that it can threaten rockers and baton pass SD and NP though (if it doesn't get banned).

You are right about Drampa. I don't know why people are speculating that'll be here, it's absolutely ridiculous. Araquanid is extremely overrated but it still won't come here.

finally The Jungle Fox said something about ORanguru... it's bad. Really bad. It's a psychic-type check, which is nice, but it doesn't do much more than grumpig.

Thanks!
 
From my SM NU experience, ALL of the silvally forms will come here. They really suck in SM NU and the only one that is even close to viable is Specs Silvally-Normal. The rest will come here and will still face lots of competition from many other mons in the tier. Wishiwashi is likely coming here too, I've stated my argument for this many times over. As hard as it hits, the fact that it just needs to take one-two hits to make it useless + the fact that it is slow means that it likely won't be great in other tiers. I don't understand why people think this is good. Lycanroc-Midnight is also coming here for the reasons stated by others- there's no reason to use it over stuff like Archeops. However, this mon will be a top-tier threat in PU and likely will make people run sturdy rock resists. Luckily Machoke will be back so that won't be hard. Lurantis is coming here also. I doubt we will lose beartic because hail doesn't look that great still honestly... but I could be wrong.

Type:Null I'm unsure about, I bet you it will be here too just because of how mediocre Normal-type mons are in NU- mainly this faces competition from stuff like Kangaskhan. Turtonator I'm also unsure, but its stats remind me of Carracosta and also its movepool is awesome, I could easily see this being either NU or PU. Mareanie I could definitely see here, it really depends on metagame trends. A-Raichu, A-Sandslash... also unsure. I'm pretty sure we're getting Palossand, Crabominable, and Komala, but I could easily be wrong, and your reasoning is kinda bad especially for Komala.

Why are you even talking about Bruxish... lol ridiculous mons. Also Hakamo-o is worse than Fraxure even with fighting stab tbh. Dartrix won't be great also honestly, mostly because it is yet another Defogger that is weak to rocks. Its nice that it can threaten rockers and baton pass SD and NP though (if it doesn't get banned).

You are right about Drampa. I don't know why people are speculating that'll be here, it's absolutely ridiculous. Araquanid is extremely overrated but it still won't come here.

finally The Jungle Fox said something about ORanguru... it's bad. Really bad. It's a psychic-type check, which is nice, but it doesn't do much more than grumpig.

Thanks!
I disagree with your statement regarding fraxure and hakama-o. Although fraxure has superior power and coverage, hakama-o actually is granted more setup opportunities thanks to bulletproof, allowing it to set up on roselia, and most notably, cacturne, pokemon fraxure would not normally set up on. In addition, I don't think hakamo needs fighting coverage, as a set of swords dance(or dragon dance)/outrage(or dragon claw)/earthquake/poison Jab will be sufficient enough to pose a threat. In addition, regarding pallosand, I doubt it will drop here, despite its poor defensive typing, it actually counters quite a few offensive threats in the higher tiers such as Aerodactyl(mega), terrakion, Rhyperior, Flygon, Medicham, and Cobalion.
 
I disagree with your statement regarding fraxure and hakama-o. Although fraxure has superior power and coverage, hakama-o actually is granted more setup opportunities thanks to bulletproof, allowing it to set up on roselia, and most notably, cacturne, pokemon fraxure would not normally set up on. In addition, I don't think hakamo needs fighting coverage, as a set of swords dance(or dragon dance)/outrage(or dragon claw)/earthquake/poison Jab will be sufficient enough to pose a threat. In addition, regarding pallosand, I doubt it will drop here, despite its poor defensive typing, it actually counters quite a few offensive threats in the higher tiers such as Aerodactyl(mega), terrakion, Rhyperior, Flygon, Medicham, and Cobalion.
Palossand is NU at best as while its cool and all its typing and speed can be a liability sometimes. About Fraxure vs. Hakamo-O, pancake is prolly right because the main perk hakamo would have is fighting STAB to hit steel types but it lacks a truly powerful one, and Fraxure has an easier time dealing with Fairies because it doesn't necessairly die to a fairy-type attack and can actually do damage to non-Scarf Mime and Clefairy with PJab or Iron Tail and to Mawile with Superpower. Also no, it doesn't set up vs. those you specifically listed: Cacturne due Focus Blast cleanly two shotting it and Roselia due Sleep Powder being pretty much a staple on offensive Roses rn (and defensive is rather mediocre).
 
Palossand is NU at best as while its cool and all its typing and speed can be a liability sometimes. About Fraxure vs. Hakamo-O, pancake is prolly right because the main perk hakamo would have is fighting STAB to hit steel types but it lacks a truly powerful one, and Fraxure has an easier time dealing with Fairies because it doesn't necessairly die to a fairy-type attack and can actually do damage to non-Scarf Mime and Clefairy with PJab or Iron Tail and to Mawile with Superpower. Also no, it doesn't set up vs. those you specifically listed: Cacturne due Focus Blast cleanly two shotting it and Roselia due Sleep Powder being pretty much a staple on offensive Roses rn (and defensive is rather mediocre).
While sleep powder does shut it down, I'm very certain bulletproof makes you immune to focus blast, and cacturne does not have much to hit hakamo due to that.
 
While sleep powder does shut it down, I'm very certain bulletproof makes you immune to focus blast, and cacturne does not have much to hit hakamo due to that.
Oh, sorry, ur right, but even then, that's only considering the AoA set. SD has Superpower which clearly does at least ~50%, so that's a thing.
 
From my SM NU experience, ALL of the silvally forms will come here. They really suck in SM NU and the only one that is even close to viable is Specs Silvally-Normal. The rest will come here and will still face lots of competition from many other mons in the tier. Wishiwashi is likely coming here too, I've stated my argument for this many times over. As hard as it hits, the fact that it just needs to take one-two hits to make it useless + the fact that it is slow means that it likely won't be great in other tiers. I don't understand why people think this is good. Lycanroc-Midnight is also coming here for the reasons stated by others- there's no reason to use it over stuff like Archeops. However, this mon will be a top-tier threat in PU and likely will make people run sturdy rock resists. Luckily Machoke will be back so that won't be hard. Lurantis is coming here also. I doubt we will lose beartic because hail doesn't look that great still honestly... but I could be wrong.

Type:Null I'm unsure about, I bet you it will be here too just because of how mediocre Normal-type mons are in NU- mainly this faces competition from stuff like Kangaskhan. Turtonator I'm also unsure, but its stats remind me of Carracosta and also its movepool is awesome, I could easily see this being either NU or PU. Mareanie I could definitely see here, it really depends on metagame trends. A-Raichu, A-Sandslash... also unsure. I'm pretty sure we're getting Palossand, Crabominable, and Komala, but I could easily be wrong, and your reasoning is kinda bad especially for Komala.

Why are you even talking about Bruxish... lol ridiculous mons. Also Hakamo-o is worse than Fraxure even with fighting stab tbh. Dartrix won't be great also honestly, mostly because it is yet another Defogger that is weak to rocks. Its nice that it can threaten rockers and baton pass SD and NP though (if it doesn't get banned).

You are right about Drampa. I don't know why people are speculating that'll be here, it's absolutely ridiculous. Araquanid is extremely overrated but it still won't come here.

finally The Jungle Fox said something about Oranguru... it's bad. Really bad. It's a psychic-type check, which is nice, but it doesn't do much more than grumpig.

Thanks!
Well I've said avid PU player... not good

However, about Silvally I dunno, I have been seeing a few Water - Steel - Fairy Silvally with moderate success in UU... I might be overestimating a few of them, but I personally think that a few will be better than PU... of course I'm not gonna be angry if we get all of them

About Hakamo-o and Fraxure, Frax can't setup on any Fairy either because even with just a 2x weakness it will still be boped by Clefairy and Mawile... at least, Hakamo-o does get a few immunities thanks to Bulletproof and higher bulk... with that it can set up even to +2 and then even if Brick Break is usually piss weak, thanks to STAB will deal more than enough damage against what should be hitting... Also Hakamo-o does have a better time against Sucker Punch users trying to break its sweep.

About Bruxish.. well, someone else talked about it, so... I just mentioned

But more importantly... I would love to know why my explanation for Komala is bad? Please, enlighten my ignorance :3

See ya!

P.D.: Specs normal Silvally sounds really weird... do you have a replay? I would love to see it in action! :3
 
Well I've said avid PU player... not good

However, about Silvally I dunno, I have been seeing a few Water - Steel - Fairy Silvally with moderate success in UU... I might be overestimating a few of them, but I personally think that a few will be better than PU... of course I'm not gonna be angry if we get all of them

About Hakamo-o and Fraxure, Frax can't setup on any Fairy either because even with just a 2x weakness it will still be boped by Clefairy and Mawile... at least, Hakamo-o does get a few immunities thanks to Bulletproof and higher bulk... with that it can set up even to +2 and then even if Brick Break is usually piss weak, thanks to STAB will deal more than enough damage against what should be hitting... Also Hakamo-o does have a better time against Sucker Punch users trying to break its sweep.

About Bruxish.. well, someone else talked about it, so... I just mentioned

But more importantly... I would love to know why my explanation for Komala is bad? Please, enlighten my ignorance :3

See ya!

P.D.: Specs normal Silvally sounds really weird... do you have a replay? I would love to see it in action! :3
1.Describing Komala as a mini-snorlax is very much why its bad (i agree komala wont drop but defining it as a bad snorlax with utility is just really questionable)
2.Sensu is the Ghost Oricorio form while Pau is the Psychic form.
3.RestTalk Raticate-A is absolute trash when you realize that Munchlax is literally better in practically everyway, yes it lacks some resists/psychic immune but being marginally bulkier is worth the hell out of it.
4.as i mentioned before Water/Fairy/Steel and Normal Silvally forms are the ones speculated to be the most unlikely drops due to semi praise in other tiers such as spec NU.

And finally.

While Lurantis can get past walls in 1v1 situations you are forgetting that a multitude of pokemon are capable of switching into it due to the barren wasteland that is its special movepool. Agreed that Defog is and will be the only reason to ever use Lurantis but being a really mediocre breaker and defogger in one slot when you can use two superior pokemon for the individual rolls will marginally improve a team. Its like Meganium not a bad mon in its own right but terrible despite any niche it has (a slow pure grass type is generally shit unless they are absurdly bulky or Gogoat)
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
1.Describing Komala as a mini-snorlax is very much why its bad (i agree komala wont drop but defining it as a bad snorlax with utility is just really questionable)
2.Sensu is the Ghost Oricorio form while Pau is the Psychic form.
3.RestTalk Raticate-A is absolute trash when you realize that Munchlax is literally better in practically everyway, yes it lacks some resists/psychic immune but being marginally bulkier is worth the hell out of it.
4.as i mentioned before Water/Fairy/Steel and Normal Silvally forms are the ones speculated to be the most unlikely drops due to semi praise in other tiers such as spec NU.

And finally.

While Lurantis can get past walls in 1v1 situations you are forgetting that a multitude of pokemon are capable of switching into it due to the barren wasteland that is its special movepool. Agreed that Defog is and will be the only reason to ever use Lurantis but being a really mediocre breaker and defogger in one slot when you can use two superior pokemon for the individual rolls will marginally improve a team. Its like Meganium not a bad mon in its own right but terrible despite any niche it has (a slow pure grass type is generally shit unless they are absurdly bulky or Gogoat)
I think Lurantis will be pretty decent, you underestimate just how useful hazard removal is. What Lurantis brings to the table that other defoggers don't is that it's a Grass-type, so it inherently fills a different role on the team that for example, Lumineon or Vibrava would fill. For example, you can use offensive water types with it without stacking poor type synergy if you were going to use Lumi/Prinplup, and you can use multiple Eviolite mons with it without stacking a weakness to Knock Off.

Anyway I disagree with Jungle Fox and others that offensive Defog Lurantis is a good set at all, like it really doesn't switch into anything if you run offensive. However, fully physically defensive and fully specially defensive sets I've been using Lurantis as my hazard removal in most of my Spec PU matches and it does its job every time. I particularily love the SpD version, as it functions as a check to water-types, electric types, and psychic types while still defogging. It's like a Roselia except instead of setting hazards you remove them. It's not even that passive either because even with little investment, having a 130 BP no drawbacks STAB is great and those contrary boosts can stack. I ran Leaf Storm/Defog/Synthesis/HP Fire with lefties btw.

Some calcs to show bulk:
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lurantis: 94-112 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lurantis: 148-177 (43 - 51.4%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lurantis: 103-122 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

obviously it's not a Snorlax but it gets the job done, and when you think about it none of the other hazard removers we have are that bulky (Lumineon anyone?).

basically people are thinking of Lurantis totally the wrong way. It's not meant to be used as a wallbreaker, just use it as a defensive utility pokemon and you won't be disappointed. Role compression is never something to be underestimated anyway
 
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Lurantis will be pretty decent, you underestimate just how useful hazard removal is. What Lurantis brings to the table that other defoggers don't is that it's a Grass-type, so it inherently fills a different role on the team that for example, Lumineon or Vibrava would fill. For example, you can use offensive water types with it without stacking poor type synergy if you were going to use Lumi/Prinplup, and you can use multiple Eviolite mons with it without stacking a weakness to Knock Off.

Anyway I disagree with Jungle Fox and others that offensive Defog Lurantis is a good set at all, like it really doesn't switch into anything if you run offensive. However, fully physically defensive and fully specially defensive sets I've been using Lurantis as my hazard removal in most of my SuMo NU matches and it does its job every time. I particularily love the SpD version, as it functions as a check to water-types, electric types, and psychic types while still defogging. It's like a Roselia except instead of setting hazards you remove them. It's not even that passive either because even with little investment, having a 130 BP no drawbacks STAB is great and those contrary boosts can stack. I ran Leaf Storm/Defog/Synthesis/HP Fire with lefties btw.

Some calcs to show bulk:
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lurantis: 94-112 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lurantis: 148-177 (43 - 51.4%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lurantis: 103-122 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

obviously it's not a Snorlax but it gets the job done, and when you think about it none of the other hazard removers we have are that bulky (Lumineon anyone?).

basically people are thinking of Lurantis totally the wrong way. It's not meant to be used as a wallbreaker, just use it as a defensive utility pokemon and you won't be disappointed. Role compression is never something to be underestimated anyway
I was referring to the say it will be an RU/NU pokemon where it is literal garbage. I cant aay if lurantis is good or not in whatever meta smpu will be but agree defensive lurantis just seems the way to go (its the only one ive used in "spec" pu)
 

SergioRules

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I haven't checked the forum in a while, and a lot of good points have been brought up so I want to say some things:
I wanted to start with this one bc I had an idea that probably won't be great, and definitely outclassed but still something that might be okay. A lot of people are talking about a regular ddance set which probably will be the main set if it sees usage. But like Kommo-o, this could potentially use a special set with draco, focus blast, autotomize, and hidden power filler. The problem it has comparing it to Kommo-o though is no flash cannon and no clanging scales, which is much better than draco in most opinions. Probably still garbage but could be a decent lure for physical walls.
Exhibit A: 252+ SpA Life Orb Hakamo-o Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 400-476 (101.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I have no plans in using it myself and it probably still will be garbage, but I just thought to bring it up.


I still can't fathom why people think this'll be here. It just hits way too hard. And while it is slow, it makes it perfect for Trick Room (which will no doubt rise in usage because of how slow this gen is). Also not to mention, we can tell from in-game that with a Sitrus Berry, this thing is even harder to take down with that bulk. I can see it has some drawbacks, but I don't see that as nearly enough reason for it to drop down here.


I used this in a speculation game and it's so busted with the right team support. Speed tier puts it at just enough to destroy defensive mons and attack stat is better than Stoutland. Stoutland may have Scrappy, but the cannon has a 120 base power STAB move that hits ghosts anyway. My one replay doesn't show exactly what it'll be doing, and I don't have any others unfortunately but I think the combination of its insanely strong dual STAB options as well as Skill Link Bullet Seed and Rock Blast may be a little much, but I don't have enough use with it to say for certain.


I can understand the comparison to Carracosta as they are extremely similar stat-wise. Although, turt lacks a few things that costa has, mainly Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and priority. I don't see these being too big of issues though as rocks are normally for defensive sets and I see turt being more of an offensive Shell Smasher so that's not as comparable (not saying defensive sets won't be usable). Knock Off isn't too big, but still sets costa apart a little bit. And priority probably won't be too big except when dealing with fast scarves, as with that typing and defense stat it'll take a really strong Aqua Jet or Mach Punch to do too much damage. I can see this thing being PU and working decently both offensively and defensively.


We just banned an Unaware user because it was too bad for the meta and you want this thing? But in all seriousness, this thing is nasty. Here's one of my situations that I've thought up:
Your opponent has been playing so terribly you can't believe it. You're up 6-3 and he let you set up your SD Leafeon to +6. There are rocks on your side of the field but it doesn't matter because you sweep him anyway. You kill the mon he currently has out. He goes into Pyukumuku. Piece of cake, it's a water type, right?
252 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Pyukumuku: 210-248 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (that's with no investment in defense)
Or even if you get a crit,
252 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Pyukumuku on a critical hit: 236-282 (75.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then all of a sudden, "Pyukumuku used Z-Psych Up!" *copies your stat changes and restores it to full HP
No biggie right? It has no attacking moves. But you can't kill it even with a crit. Then, "Pyukumuku used Baton Pass!" Your opponent goes into his LO Floatzel, and you get swept.

Obviously this is very situational and gimmicky, and if you are aware of what Z-Psych Up does, you'd switch out so he wastes his Z Move before he can use it. But I still think this mon is bulky enough and has so much utility that it could be dangerous for PU. Plus, we just had the trouble with Quagsire and that doesn't have nearly as much utility as this thing. Imo, this would be worse for the meta than Quag and I just don't see it fitting here. I just hope some higher tier snatches this up, because I don't want it down here killing my offense play-style.


I see all forms dropping here, and pretty much the same opinion as most others that Sensu might be NU. If it had just a little better speed (at least 100) I would say NU for sure. Even though Ghost/Flying is a great typing and good for spinblocking, all NU spinners beat it if they predict the switch (except Claydol whose Shadow Ball still does 60-70%). We'll see how these fare and maybe have 4 new specially offensive birds in the game.


I don't feel like commenting on Silvally just yet because it's late rn and there's so much to talk about with that. I'll save that for another post.
 
I think Lurantis will be pretty decent, you underestimate just how useful hazard removal is. What Lurantis brings to the table that other defoggers don't is that it's a Grass-type, so it inherently fills a different role on the team that for example, Lumineon or Vibrava would fill. For example, you can use offensive water types with it without stacking poor type synergy if you were going to use Lumi/Prinplup, and you can use multiple Eviolite mons with it without stacking a weakness to Knock Off.

Anyway I disagree with Jungle Fox and others that offensive Defog Lurantis is a good set at all, like it really doesn't switch into anything if you run offensive. However, fully physically defensive and fully specially defensive sets I've been using Lurantis as my hazard removal in most of my Spec PU matches and it does its job every time. I particularily love the SpD version, as it functions as a check to water-types, electric types, and psychic types while still defogging. It's like a Roselia except instead of setting hazards you remove them. It's not even that passive either because even with little investment, having a 130 BP no drawbacks STAB is great and those contrary boosts can stack. I ran Leaf Storm/Defog/Synthesis/HP Fire with lefties btw.

Some calcs to show bulk:
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lurantis: 94-112 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lurantis: 148-177 (43 - 51.4%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lurantis: 103-122 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

obviously it's not a Snorlax but it gets the job done, and when you think about it none of the other hazard removers we have are that bulky (Lumineon anyone?).

basically people are thinking of Lurantis totally the wrong way. It's not meant to be used as a wallbreaker, just use it as a defensive utility pokemon and you won't be disappointed. Role compression is never something to be underestimated anyway
While I do agree defensive sets have their own niche, Lurantis' typing and natural bulk allow it outspeeding and dealing with a good portion of the avaliable rockers (with the expection of Metang, a lucky Probopass and Camel). Grass is an awesome offensive typing overall and its still able to avoid the 2hko/OHKO of a big portion of those calcs you poited, MoM. The fact that its a defensive mon with few PP both for STAB and recovery annoys me a little, but I do see defensive spreads having potential.
 
1.Describing Komala as a mini-snorlax is very much why its bad (i agree komala wont drop but defining it as a bad snorlax with utility is just really questionable)
Like I've said to Pancakes, I dunno, I felt those could be kinda comparable, just for typing and stats, but I haven't tried it, so, of course I might be wrong :3

2.Sensu is the Ghost Oricorio form while Pau is the Psychic form.
Brainfarts for everyoneeeeee

3.RestTalk Raticate-A is absolute trash when you realize that Munchlax is literally better in practically everyway, yes it lacks some resists/psychic immune but being marginally bulkier is worth the hell out of it.
I find this one debatable... A-Raticate isn't as miserable against Knock Off users thanks to not losing bulk without eviolite and resisting Dark. Also, Dark STAB is a better one to use for Resttalk sets, since nothing is immune to Dark... they are very similar however and that might be around C or C- viability... which is still better than normal Rati

While Lurantis can get past walls in 1v1 situations you are forgetting that a multitude of pokemon are capable of switching into it due to the barren wasteland that is its special movepool. Agreed that Defog is and will be the only reason to ever use Lurantis but being a really mediocre breaker and defogger in one slot when you can use two superior pokemon for the individual rolls will marginally improve a team. Its like Meganium not a bad mon in its own right but terrible despite any niche it has (a slow pure grass type is generally shit unless they are absurdly bulky or Gogoat)
Come one dude... what is the huge Serperior Special Movepool? Leaf Storm, HP Fire and Dragon Pulse... what about Lilligant? another thing with just a High powered Grass STAB and Hidden Power... and they can still do wonders... Lurantis just changes Sleep Powder and a slower setup for Defog and Aromatherapy support... I don't feel that could be better or worst for one of them, but just made them different enough to probably be used on NU depending on what your team needs...

Thanks again for the discussion! :3 I can't wait to get my hands on the real SM PU! *_*

See ya guys!
 

etern

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NU Leader
NU player here to discuss a couple predictions.

Lurantis: This is 100% coming to PU no questions asked. Lurantis unfortunately doesnt have the bulk to check anything that a Grass-type slot normally checks (You lose to SD Samurott, SD Kabutops, DD Rhydon, Ludicolo, Specs Poliwrath, Smash Omastar, etc) It's extremely slow to the point that even fat walls / tanks like Vileplume, Lanturn, Hariyama, and Piloswine outspeed you and just pummel you before you can do anything. To make matters worse, Lurantis will also have to face competition from other Hazard Removalists such as Hitmonchan, Shiftry, Tsareena, Golbat, and Hitmontop, all of which can provide more to teams in utility. Offensively, theres 0 reason to use this over our actual good Grass-types like Lilligant (quiver dance + good speed), Shiftry (sd + priority), Torterra, Ludicolo, Sawsbuck, heck even Servine has more use. Fwiw, Defensive Lurantis looks like a solid pick in PU for decent role compression.

Silvally: Silvally looks alright on paper until you see its shallow movepool, lack of recovery, inability to hold a boosting item (bar the Normal form), and competition from other NU sweepers respectively. (Water - Samurott, Grass- Leafeon, Dark- Shiftry, Psychic- Mesprit / Xatu, Normal- Tauros / Kanga / Zangoose /, etc. No form stands out in the tier and for the most part they're either too weak, walled by too much, or just outclassed. That being said, 1 or 2 (most likely Normal which can use Z-Explosion) might have a niche which lets them see some use in NU, for the most part though a significant majority if not all, should drop to PU.

Bibarel: Just use Linoone. Bibarel has been tested a lot in our speculation tours and its honestly still quite weak at +4, still very frail so its difficult to set up, and at the end of the day just a discount linoone. If Linoone ends up getting banned from PU down the road, Bibarel could have a chance to shine, but that scenario is still a long way away.

Lycanroc-Midnite: Like MaroGod, this is just a worse version of DD Rhydon and SD Kabutops that gets stopped by literally every rock resist in the tier + most priority users like chan and gurdurr. Should be really good here though where Rock-type resists are a little harder to come around, def a mon to look out for.

Alolan Dugtrio: Outside of Sand this mon is mediocre in NU, and with Gigalith settling down in UU Sand is looking to be very rare again. Def see this being quite good in PU as a partner of Stoutland in sand or even just as a solid CB / LO attacker (something like EQ / Iron Head / Toxic / Stone Edge).

Primeape / Passimian: NU is expected to get a lot of Fairy-types this generation (Aromatisse / Togetic / Shiinotic / Comfey) and because of this Primeape's access to Gunk Shot is an extremely useful niche over Passimian who only has the weaker Iron Head to hit them. Primeape is also relatively faster (95 Speed to 80) which means its Choice Scarf set can actually revenge kill a wider range of Pokemon which Passimian misses out on (+1 Lilligant, +1 Vivillon, +2 Omastar, +2 Adamant Barbaracle as well as speed tieing +1 Jynx). However, on the other hand Passimian has nice natural bulk to soft check things like Skuntank and take priority moves better, as well as being relatively stronger (120 Attack to 105). Unfortunately, Passimian lacks Stone Edge so it's forced to run the weak Rock Slide. Overall, while they both have positives and negatives, Primeape is just the better overall pick imo, and Passimian in turn should probably drop to PU.

Toucannon: A fearsome wallbreaker. This thing is crazy offensively, with Brave Bird / Bullet Seed / Overheat / Boomburst nothing can freely switch into this. Unfort it'll face competition from Dodrio (which we're gonna take), Archeops, and Chatot in NU, not to mention its also quite slow and not too bulky. I can see this making its home in PU and being very tough for Stall / Balance to deal with.

Some NU mons that I predict might drop: Pinsir, Sandslash, Cradily, Kecleon.
 

SergioRules

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Primeape / Passimian: NU is expected to get a lot of Fairy-types this generation (Aromatisse / Togetic / Shiinotic / Comfey) and because of this Primeape's access to Gunk Shot is an extremely useful niche over Passimian who only has the weaker Iron Head to hit them. Primeape is also relatively faster (95 Speed to 80) which means its Choice Scarf set can actually revenge kill a wider range of Pokemon which Passimian misses out on (+1 Lilligant, +1 Vivillon, +2 Omastar, +2 Adamant Barbaracle as well as speed tieing +1 Jynx). However, on the other hand Passimian has nice natural bulk to soft check things like Skuntank and take priority moves better, as well as being relatively stronger (120 Attack to 105). Unfortunately, Passimian lacks Stone Edge so it's forced to run the weak Rock Slide. Overall, while they both have positives and negatives, Primeape is just the better overall pick imo, and Passimian in turn should probably drop to PU.
Defiant is also unreleased thus far on Passimian, making its ability useless in singles and giving Primeape much more worth as a Defog deterrent.
 


Murkrow @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
Credit to Anty for the idea and help on the set (this is basically his work honestly).

Alright, so Z-Mirror Move is kind of ridiculous. It gives you +2, takes the move last used against you, and turns it into the Z-Move equivalent. For example, if you swap in Murkrow on a weakened tank golem's EQ, you will hit it with a +2 180 base power priority Tectonic rage and guarantee a KO no matter what percent its at (besides 100 because sturdy.) Additionally, after that turn you now have access to a priority EQ you can use until you get targeted by a move again. This makes Murkrow a pretty scary late game cleaner, especially with the +2 sucker punches and brave birds. One last thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to use Z-Mirror move, you can actually just use Z-Brave Bird for a supersonic skystrike to nuke any wall left in your way without the +2. Z-Mirror Move also works on mons such as Combusken with Protect (Protect turn 1, turn 2 strike with a +2 z-powered version of the move they tried to hit you with).

Edit: After some additional testing, EQ does not carry over between targets like, say, copycat. So sadly, Murkrow can not EQ multiple targets. However, stab Sucker Punch + Brave Bird are still enough to do the job rather nicely
 
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Huh. I did the exact same thing with honchkrow in UU/RU. Probably murkrow is even better at this due to prankster. Murkrow could also do this in LC. I actually see keckleon drop because in the RU alpha, the trash normal types are falling to NU (prediction) and then keckleon (the worst NU by usage normal) will drop here. Does anyone think guzzlord is going to drop here? No one wants it.
 
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