Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

[Punchshroom]

I know other arceus forms could do similar sets but I don't think there's any other type that could fill all the roles that arceus steel does on my team. And I don't think his niche is that small either, I've been succesful on the ladder with mutliple different teams featuring him and I've never felt that he was not pulling his weight.

SteelCeus's qualities are likely what landed it in C at all, compared to the (edit: happy now hyw ?) relatively worse Arceus formes that are Grass, Psychic, Fighting, etc. And even then, those are likely on the merits of the SD Z-set which can instantly beat down Xerneas and at least pose an immediate threat to the likes of MMence (both mons of which it can check), while CM SteelCeus fails at both of those while having a far worse offensive typing than other CM Arceus formes. As far as I can tell, SteelCeus gets its small niche from checking Xerneas + some other stuff (MMence and Ice-types in SteelCeus's case) while being a half-decent offensive threat with Toxic immunity, reminiscent to that of PoisonCeus checking Xerneas + Fightings while also being a half-decent offensive threat boasting Toxic immunity. Those two being on par seems reasonable, while insinuating SteelCeus is on the level of B Rank mons (including RockCeus, FairyCeus, and IceCeus, and a number of Steel-types, all of which compete with it for a teamslot) is kind of a stretch.

 

[hyw]

SteelCeus's qualities are likely what landed it in C at all, compared to the gutter trash Arceus formes that are Grass, Psychic, Fighting, etc.

nigga what lmaoo

 

[lati0s]

CM steelceus has been a decent MMence and Xerneas check in my experience. Unboosted Judgement does more damage than a Corkscrew crash against MMence and you can use it more than once so I don't know why you'd think the SD set checks it better.

4 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 160-190 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Salamence-Mega: 166-196 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

As for Xerneas my team runs ditto so it usually can't geomancy so CM arceus is a great switch in to soak up moonblasts

Here's another replay where Steel-ceus shines in a match against another player near the top of the ladder http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-534532258

 

[Lacus Clyne]

I don't use Arceus-Steel but I am pretty sure that they run 252 Atk, hence the following calcs should be the correct ones.

-1 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 132-156 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 196-232 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 295-348 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[lati0s]

I mean if you want to put your EVs in attack/special attack instead of HP you can do that. The point is that with the same number of EVs in attack or special attack an iron plate judgement will do more to MMence than a corkscrew crash

 

[shrang]

Steelceus has never been a good Mence check in the first place, special of physical, since a significant amount of them carry EQ (and yes while Judgement does more it's still losing vs Mence if it has EQ). As for Xerneas, CM Steelceus is undisputably worse off against GeoXern than SD, as I have explained already.

 

[overdose]

can we blacklist discussion over steelceus pls

 

[Nayrz]

Here's the next update. First up, there are some changes to the VR Council roster - dice has dropped out due to being too busy irl to participate, and to replace him as well as bolster the numbers, we are adding some SPL players in Gunner Rohan and The Trap God to the council! This update we put all the nominations and some internal ones into a spreadsheet and had each member cast their vote in agreement or disagreement. With this system in place, getting updates going should no longer be chaotic, leading to shorter waits when an update is time. Here are the results:

Update List:

Cloyster: B- > C+(below Dugtrio)
Arceus-Ground: A- > A (top of A)
Chansey: C+ > B (below Blissey)
Xurkitree: C+ > C (top of C)
Kyogre: D > C (below Blaziken)
Giratina: C- > C+ (below Cloyster)
Giratina-O: A > A- (below Primal Kyogre)
Mega Metagross: Unranked > C+ (above Cloyster)
Mega Gyarados: Unranked > C+ (top of C+)

Partial Movements:
This section is a middle ground option for Pokemon that had a close call in voting and internal discussion. Rather than move completely to the nominated rank, it was partially moved in that direction. Here are those affected:

Rayquaza (moves up inside B+, above Ferrothorn)
Landorus-T (moves to B-, below Skarmory)
Deoxys-A (moves down inside A, above Mega Lucario)

Arceus-Steel's nomination did not come close to reaching a council majority, and thus will not be moving this update. There were some alterations to nominations that the council voted as better positions, Mega Metagross being an example. Deoxys-A was one internal nomination that passed by a close vote, as to summarize, it was believed that its ranking did not properly reflect its usage on teams, as well as its effectiveness. Deoxys-A finds itself with less opportunities, appearing to mostly see usage on teams utilizing Psychic Terrain, and Scarf Lunala has also been posing a threat to it's potential in games, leading to the small drop.

Expect the next update to make its appearance near the end of SPL!

 

[SovereignC2]

Why are reshiram and kyurem w in the same rank? Reshiram is much worse due its worst speed tier IMO. Kyurem w also hits harder.

 

[Vengeance417]

Why are reshiram and kyurem w in the same rank? Reshiram is much worse due its worst speed tier IMO. Kyurem w also hits harder.

Reshiram has a niche in its Grassium Z set that enables it to break down its usual checks in Kyogre/Arceus-Water.

 

[mtr]

Why was Giratina moved up? I would assume that it would be weaker this gen, because Zygarde-C means that it loses part of its niche as a physical wall.

Though it still has Defog, which is nice.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

(Shedinja)

I suggest to put this guy to C.

Some might wonder why even use this tiny bug in the meta where Primal Groudon is everywhere, but this guy's niche comes from three significant roles:

1. Entirely walling standard Kyogre.
2. Entirely walling any Xerneas without specific HP type.
3. Ability to OHKO Deoxys-A or force it out with Shadow Sneak.

Most Xerneas I've seen, runs HP Ground / Grass Knot / Focus Blast as a coverage move. If Xerneas runs HP fire, it might check Steel types easier but it will lose to Primal Groudon which is in literally almost every Ubers team. Running HP rock gives Xerneas some dmg roll to OHKO standard Ho-oh after Geomancy, but it will lose to Pdon as well. (being KOed by Precipice Blades or phazed by Roar)

And I doubt any Kyogre runs Ancient Power or Toxic to specifically counter this Shedinja, since its role itself is wallbreaker.

Because of Deoxys-A's high base speed of 150 and access to Extreme Speed, most 'mons have hard time revenge killing (including Pheromosa). Shedinja can just simply OHKO it with Shadow Sneak if Deoxys lacks Focus Sash or force it out.

Also this guy's terrible speed and access to Baton Pass lets it work as a pivot, letting its team to take advantage in many different situations.

I know this guy is very susceptible to weather damage, hazards, and status, but this can be alleviated by having some team support. In my case, I give specific EV investment to Yvetal so it can Taunt Primal Groudon before it sets up Stealth Rock, and prepare one support Arceus form with Defog.

I would say this guy is C because of its inability to survive against many common threats in the game yet due to its ability to completely shut down certain significant 'mons, namely Xerneas, Kyogre and Deoxys-A.

 

[MajoraInAFedora]

Deoxys carries knock off, and there are stronger xern and pogre checks out there, namely Primal Groudon. I doubt it will be ranked, but it would be cool. I see no need to mention hazards or status.

 

[Cobalt314]

Deoxys carries knock off

Shedinja carries Shadow Sneak and Focus Sash. Assuming the Sash is intact, it will always win the 1v1 (if Sash is broken from before, it will always beat Life Orb variants anyway).

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Deoxys carries knock off, and there are stronger xern and pogre checks out there, namely Primal Groudon. I doubt it will be ranked, but it would be cool. I see no need to mention hazards or status.

I agree with yah overall but Primal Groudon has 0 recovery outsides using Rest which can't really fit in Don's moveset. Also, Shed can wall Kyogre and Xerneas while taking 0 net damage, and helps significantly lengthening your team's overall longevity.

Also Xerneas heavily invests in HP and Defense so it can survive 2 Precipice Blades from defensive Groudon after Stealth Rock.

Don can remove Primordial Sea but it will be chipped by Ice Beam and will eventually be unable to check Ogre.

Also I used to have Choice Band Solgaleo as a check for Xerneas, but people started playing hax and getting crit every time I send a tank. That's why I chose Shedinja, which is never affected by hacking shenanigans thanks to its Wonder Guard.

 

[Wob]

I agree with yah overall but Primal Groudon has 0 recovery outsides using Rest which can't really fit in Don's moveset. Also, Shed can wall Kyogre and Xerneas while taking 0 net damage, and helps significantly lengthening your team's overall longevity.

Also Xerneas heavily invests in HP and Defense so it can survive 2 Precipice Blades from defensive Groudon after Stealth Rock.

Don can remove Primordial Sea but it will be chipped by Ice Beam and will eventually be unable to check Ogre.

Also I used to have Choice Band Solgaleo as a check for Xerneas, but people started playing hax and getting crit every time I send a tank. That's why I chose Shedinja, which is never affected by hacking shenanigans thanks to its Wonder Guard.

You're not mentioning the fact that if Stealth Rock is up, Shedinja can't wall either of them, since it just dies if it tries to switch in.

You also misrepresent why Primal Groudon is a Xerneas check. PDon doesn't use Precipice Blades to check Xern, rather it cripples it with Thunder Wave for another teammate, or preferably, it phazes it with Roar so it loses its Geomancy boosts.

While it's true that Primal Kyogre chips down Primal Groudon until it's in range of being KOed eventually, every time PDon comes in on Primal Kyogre, it gets a free turn as it forces POgre out if weather is on its side. Setup Primal Groudon in particular is definitely not something you want to be giving free turns to.

The fact that hax can happen isn't a good argument. That's not a reason to use something otherwise inferior to another option.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

You're not mentioning the fact that if Stealth Rock is up, Shedinja can't wall either of them, since it just dies if it tries to switch in.

You also misrepresent why Primal Groudon is a Xerneas check. PDon doesn't use Precipice Blades to check Xern, rather it cripples it with Thunder Wave for another teammate, or preferably, it phazes it with Roar so it loses its Geomancy boosts.

While it's true that Primal Kyogre chips down Primal Groudon until it's in range of being KOed eventually, every time PDon comes in on Primal Kyogre, it gets a free turn as it forces POgre out if weather is on its side. Setup Primal Groudon in particular is definitely not something you want to be giving free turns to.

The fact that hax can happen isn't a good argument. That's not a reason to use something otherwise inferior to another option.

Let me make better arguments.

I never said Precipice Blades is the way for Pdon to check Xerneas. I said most Xerneas survives 2 of the P-Blades from defensive forms so I meant to say Pdon can't beat Xerneas 1v1 and therefore is forced to phaze it with Roar or use Thunder Wave. But that doesn't mean Xerneas is useless afterwards. It can always switch against something like Yvetal and someone will have to tank Fairy Aura Moonblast, which Pdon can't do forever. If Shedinja can take any hit from Xerneas, it can keep its ally as healthy as possible (although it does not provide direct aids like cleric variants do) throughout the time it is alive.

Pdon has to switch in on Kyogre, but if its a setup form (like you said) with things like Rock Polish / Swords Dance, it can be dangerous. But this Pdon has to come in while taking Ice Beam, but Shedinja can safely Baton Pass with its terrible speed, letting its ally switch in without any harm. Full HP switching on Kyogre and having weather advantage is better than starting off by losing quarter of health from Ice Beam.

To re-word what I mentioned about "hax", I am just saying that while in some rare occasions while critical hits make Xerneas' checks fail to fulfill its role, Shedinja wouldn't have such concern because of its ability. So it can unconditionally and continuously wall Xerneas that does not carry HP Fire or HP Rock.

I mentioned about the fact that team support of keeping Sheddy away from Stealth Rock is necessary in previous post, although this may be very hard against teams with 2+ Stealth Rock setters, although very rare.

Also don't take as if I am saying Shedinja is very good 'mon to use. I suggested it to be in C rank which is fairly low.

 

[Wob]

Let me make better arguments.

I never said Precipice Blades is the way for Pdon to check Xerneas. I said most Xerneas survives 2 of the P-Blades from defensive forms so I meant to say Pdon can't beat Xerneas 1v1 and therefore is forced to phaze it with Roar or use Thunder Wave. But that doesn't mean Xerneas is useless afterwards. It can always switch against something like Yvetal and someone will have to tank Fairy Aura Moonblast, which Pdon can't do forever. If Shedinja can take any hit from Xerneas, it can keep its ally as healthy as possible (although it does not provide direct aids like cleric variants do) throughout the time it is alive.

Pdon has to switch in on Kyogre, but if its a setup form (like you said) with things like Rock Polish / Swords Dance, it can be dangerous. But this Pdon has to come in while taking Ice Beam, but Shedinja can safely Baton Pass with its terrible speed, letting its ally switch in without any harm. Full HP switching on Kyogre and having weather advantage is better than starting off by losing quarter of health from Ice Beam.

To re-word what I mentioned about "hax", I am just saying that while in some rare occasions while critical hits make Xerneas' checks fail to fulfill its role, Shedinja wouldn't have such concern because of its ability. So it can unconditionally and continuously wall Xerneas that does not carry HP Fire or HP Rock.

I mentioned about the fact that team support of keeping Sheddy away from Stealth Rock is necessary in previous post, although this may be very hard against teams with 2+ Stealth Rock setters, although very rare.

Also don't take as if I am saying Shedinja is very good 'mon to use. I suggested it to be in C rank which is fairly low.

C is way too high for this thing. There's no way that Shedinja is on the same threat level as Kyurem-White and Mega Kang. It's honestly a pretty poor Deo-A check, if you really wanna beat it you'd be better off using a Pursuit trapper or something. Shedinja can only switch into Deoxys-Attack once since it tends to run Knock Off, and if Deo-A is sash it outright loses if it switches in. That leaves POgre and Xern, and the reality is that Primal Groudon is simply a far better check to those two mons. I understand your point about PDon being easily worn down, but unlike Shedinja it doesn't require ridiculous amounts of anti-hazard support to use, even more so than something like Ho-Oh does. There's also the fact that both of the things Shedinja is supposed to check commonly run moves that can beat it; Xern often runs HP Fire or Rock, and Primal Kyogre commonly uses Toxic.

tl;dr Shedinja is a cool gimmick but it definitely isn't worth of a spot on the rankings.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Shedinja is and always has been a crappy gimmick. Fire, rock, ghost and dark moves are common for STAB and coverage. You've also got numerous Flying types that make its life hell - Ho-Oh, Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, even Arceus Flying. Any entry hazards make it useless. Anything with Toxic or Will-o-wisp beats it easily. Ill give you Xerneas but I've lately seen , and run myself, defensive Primal Kyogre with Toxic, which takes it out instantly. The number of Pokemon it can reliably wall is miniscule.

 

[Fireburn]

Some quick noms so we can talk about something that isn't Shedinja (which sucks btw, requires too much support for too little payoff):

Celesteela B+ -> A-: Excellent mon for balance teams due to its ability to cover many dangerous things in one slot courtesy of solid stats and great typing. It provides hard checks to EKiller, Mega Salamence, Excadrill, and Arceus-Ground while soft checking certain sets of Primal Groudon and Xerneas, and its access to Leech Seed is great for both defensive and supporting capabilities. Celesteela also has great synergy with Waters and bulky Dragons that can easily cover its main flaw which is its Fire weakness, making it easy to fit into cores. It's qualities have really been shining in SPL thus far as its win rate can attest to, and I think it's time for it to get a little bump.

Landorus-I D -> C+: Pretty good balance breaker that can also set up SR and scare the crap out of PDon. It's been tacitly acknowledged that this mon is better than most of the garbage in D rank for awhile and its probably time to address it once and for all lol.

Deoxys-S B+ -> B/B-: Darkrai getting nerfed has made Deoxys-S HO teams less consistent than they were in ORAS, and most of the other HO leads that do get used (Excadrill, Smeargle, Cloyster, Greninja) have ways to stop it from layering multiple times. This mon's position was mostly a holdover from ORAS and it should be much lower than this considering the generally decreased effectiveness of HO in SM.

Klefki B -> B-: Let's face it: the age of Klefki is probably over. Basically all the metagame shifts in Gen 7 have been unfavorable to Klefki: the paralysis nerfs and existence of Z-Geomancy have made it much less effective against Xerneas, it struggles to handle sustained damage output from Specs Yveltal and can no longer threaten status, Arceus-Dark laughs at it, Defog Arceus-Ground makes it less consistent at keeping Spikes up, and the Darkrai/Soul Dew nerfs have given it much fewer mons it can switch in on. Spikes is basically the only thing keeping Klefki alive, but it struggles to fit on balance due to its inability to actually check too many things (+ competition with Celesteela) and stall teams largely prefer Ferrothorn for increased bulk and the ability to stay in against Defog Groundceus and actually beat Z-Geomancy Xerneas. The top of B rank seems too high for something with such an unclear place in the meta.

e: forgot one

Arceus-Dragon B+ -> B/B-: Support Arceus-Dragon does not fare well against Lucario, and that combined with heavy competition from Zygarde-C/Giratina formes make it pretty hard to justify using on teams nowadays.

 

[shrang]

When's the drop of shit house Xurkitree happening

 

[KyogreF4N]

Magearna B --> B+

I feel like this mon is underrated ways too much. It's the Best Xerneas counter in the tier, as it wins 100% of the time 1v1. It's also an excellent check to Yveltal (without the rare Heat Wave), Gira-o, Deo-a, Darkceus straight loses to this too because of heart swap stealing boosts and Fleur Cannon giving you a nice -2. Its immunity to Toxic is golden vs stall/balance, and i would have nominated it to A rank if it had Toxic tbh.

I know its main flaws are Primal Groudon and Ho-oh, but Magearna fits in every playstyle between stall and BO, hence you're supposed to have a switchin to these both mons. It has access to some utilities moves in Thunder Wave and Volt Switch is nice to keep momentum vs Ho-oh. It's extremely bulky on the special side, and it can even act as a last resort check to MMence without eq (or burnt mence with facade and eq). Pain split is not the best recovery of course, but it gets advantage of its relatively low HP to get back at full/Xern range often. The Calm set with 252 HP/252 Sdef does not take more than 60% whatever the Xerneas is hitting you with, and i dont know much of a mon that can switch in Xerneas at 60% and win the duel.
It creates an excellent synergy with defensive Arceus Water, these two mons check the majority of the top tiers, and you're free to decide which because of Waterceus versatility (Fire Blast vs Mega Luke, Celesteela, Ferro etc, Ice Beam for Mence, Zygarde-C, Rayquaza, Judgement for Ho-oh/neutral hits, Toxic vs stall/Primal Groudon/support Arceus... )
For all of that, Magearna deserves to be top of B rank, I know it can't be A because of the support it needs but imo it provides so much back !

 

[Zaionar]

Magearnas qualities are oversold, while it is a good answer to the abovementioned threats, it is deadweight against most other things. The main point of that ofc being that it invites free switches to very potent threats in this metagame, Groundceus, Pdon and Ho-Oh. Also you are overselling its synergy with playstyles as it provides too little (no hazards, no hazard removal, no Status, no reliable recovery) for stall to make it great on that playstyle, its an ok choice for balance or some BO builds that are extremely weak to Xerneas, but putting its utility amog the likes of Ferrothorn or Muk doesn´t do Magearnas shortcomings justice. Its winrate in SPL shouldnt be a main argument, but its telling the story as well. I think Magearna is fine where it is.

Also backing Fireburns nom for Celesteela to move to A- due to it being able to cover multiple physical threats to balance teams without having to resort to Zygarde, trading the ability to reliably take on Ho-Oh for a surefire Groundceus counter.

 

[KyogreF4N]

I just can't see how Ferro is superior to Magearna in the sense that it's also an invitation to Pdon, Ho-oh, Mega Lucario which are huge threats. And your argument is just not valid, please tell me what team does not run Yvel, Xern, Darkceus, Gira-o, Deo-a, Kyurem-W... ? Even non specs Lunala loses to this mon, so i can't see the point in saying it's deadweight. Magearna has been so great for me until there, it provides too much useful resistances/immunities to be ignored in B rank.

 

[Zaionar]

That a scarfer wont break a specially defensive tank with a non SE move shouldn´t really be a suprise. Ferro is superior in having access to spikes and stealth rocks, providing the utility of hazards and wearing down targets with Leech Seed, also providing fine recovery to it. Thus it frees up a lot of utility for the rest of the team. The difference is that Ferro is able to punish the switchins a lot better than Magearna. Im not doubting its ability to take on there threats, but please also keep in mind that these mons can overwhelm magearna as well, eg Specs Xerneas, Specs, Kyu-W, and LO Deo-A. While that is also true about Ferro, every mon has its shortcomings and you just have to see what you get.

Im not trying to talk down your opinion of a mon that worked great for you, I just want to objectively state why I think its general viability isn´t too huge in my opinion.