SM UU Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Togekiss: A- to A. I know Togekiss just moved up to A-, but it's absolutely worth more than that. It's more consistently useful than any Pokemon in A- and the extent to which it fucks stall alone should push it up to A. With not many stall teams able to run Aerodactyl, the next "safest" thing is Unaware Clefable which risks being flinched 3 times to lose, not to mention relying on Wish + Protect to stay healthy. Togekiss, even when running the set purely dedicated to breaking stall, also has a ton of utility in other matchups by virtue of checking so many threats like Latias, Mega Sharpedo, and Gliscor, and being able to check several bulky setup sweepers like CM Clefable. That's not even talking about Togekiss's bulkier TWave set which shuts a ton of offensive and defensive Pokemon down and can be incredibly difficult to take down (for example, it tanks Aero's Stone Edge, TWaves, and stalls it out).

Bisharp: stay in S. If you want to see why Bisharp shouldn't drop to A+, stop using shitty sets like AV and Stealth Rock, and use SD LO Bisharp. It puts more pressure on teams, offensive or defensive, than any other single Pokemon in the tier and threatens a huge amount of individual Pokemon.

Bewear: stay in B-. I actually think that Bewear is being overhyped in this thread. It's definitely a solid option for a wallbreaker, which is reflected by its current rank / recent rise up from C+, but it suffers from a lot of problems. For one, its STAB moves aren't actually that spammable (lack of good Fighting STAB sucks big time), and if there's a Ghost-type on the opposing field it becomes a huge mess to try to switch in safely and pick up a kill. Also, while it is indeed very bulky especially on the physical side, it doesn't actually have that many common switchin opportunities, especially because stuff like Bisharp and Krookodile would just knock off its Band on the switch. It does hit very hard, but nothing particularly ridiculous in a tier with many Pokemon that offer a better option for a Pokemon to switch in once a battle and fire off a nuke, and unlike many wallbreakers it is relatively easy for defensive teams to play around it with stuff like Alomomola and Slowbro as pivots.

Aerodactyl-Mega to S: was initially against this but now I'm leaning more towards yes. It's simply incredible against offensive teams, as it was last gen, and offers a ton of utility by trapping Alakazam, Gengar, Latias, and Celebi. Between all the possible coverage moves and Hone Claws, it can just be a bitch to play around and there's only a select few things on offense that can reliably check it.
 
Togekiss: A- to A. I know Togekiss just moved up to A-, but it's absolutely worth more than that. It's more consistently useful than any Pokemon in A- and the extent to which it fucks stall alone should push it up to A. With not many stall teams able to run Aerodactyl, the next "safest" thing is Unaware Clefable which risks being flinched 3 times to lose, not to mention relying on Wish + Protect to stay healthy. Togekiss, even when running the set purely dedicated to breaking stall, also has a ton of utility in other matchups by virtue of checking so many threats like Latias, Mega Sharpedo, and Gliscor, and being able to check several bulky setup sweepers like CM Clefable. That's not even talking about Togekiss's bulkier TWave set which shuts a ton of offensive and defensive Pokemon down and can be incredibly difficult to take down (for example, it tanks Aero's Stone Edge, TWaves, and stalls it out).

Bisharp: stay in S. If you want to see why Bisharp shouldn't drop to A+, stop using shitty sets like AV and Stealth Rock, and use SD LO Bisharp. It puts more pressure on teams, offensive or defensive, than any other single Pokemon in the tier and threatens a huge amount of individual Pokemon.

Bewear: stay in B-. I actually think that Bewear is being overhyped in this thread. It's definitely a solid option for a wallbreaker, which is reflected by its current rank / recent rise up from C+, but it suffers from a lot of problems. For one, its STAB moves aren't actually that spammable (lack of good Fighting STAB sucks big time), and if there's a Ghost-type on the opposing field it becomes a huge mess to try to switch in safely and pick up a kill. Also, while it is indeed very bulky especially on the physical side, it doesn't actually have that many common switchin opportunities, especially because stuff like Bisharp and Krookodile would just knock off its Band on the switch. It does hit very hard, but nothing particularly ridiculous in a tier with many Pokemon that offer a better option for a Pokemon to switch in once a battle and fire off a nuke, and unlike many wallbreakers it is relatively easy for defensive teams to play around it with stuff like Alomomola and Slowbro as pivots.

Aerodactyl-Mega to S: was initially against this but now I'm leaning more towards yes. It's simply incredible against offensive teams, as it was last gen, and offers a ton of utility by trapping Alakazam, Gengar, Latias, and Celebi. Between all the possible coverage moves and Hone Claws, it can just be a bitch to play around and there's only a select few things on offense that can reliably check it.
Bewear has Hammer Arm for reliable Fighting STAB. Since it's slow, it doesn't care for speed, defenses are what matters so that point you made is invalid
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Bewear has Hammer Arm for reliable Fighting STAB. Since it's slow, it doesn't care for speed, defenses are what matters so that point you made is invalid
Hammer Arm is 90% accurate so it isn't as reliable as you have it be. While Bewear doesn't care about the Speed drop, the Speed drop can be detrimental at times when up against opposing Bewears or Primarina.
 
Hammer Arm is 90% accurate so it isn't as reliable as you have it be. While Bewear doesn't care about the Speed drop, the Speed drop can be detrimental at times when up against opposing Bewears or Primarina.
Why would bring your Bewear on a Primarina? It gets no Poison or Steel moves, or not that I know of
 
Why would bring your Bewear on a Primarina? It gets no Poison or Steel moves, or not that I know of
If Bewear had its Choice Band Knocked Off, it can't outspeed Primarina at +1. And Jolly Bewear KOes Primarina after some prior damage, while Adamant can OHKO it with SR up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TSR
Why would bring your Bewear on a Primarina? It gets no Poison or Steel moves, or not that I know of
If you REALLY wanna be super effective on primarina, bewear gets thunder punch. It's not needed tho because Return smacks Primarina anyway and Ice Punch and EQ are both crucial, as well as Shadow Claw to an extent.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I may not be of any sort of authority, but can we please stop with one-liners or at least like, heavily discourage them? They don't add anything productive to the thread's current discussion whatsoever and are just taking up space. The main point of the viability ranking thread is to maintain discussion regarding potential rises and drops that could occur within the current rankings, and that is very rarely accomplished in correcting minor errors within other people's posts or very briefly disagreeing with somebody and only posting about your minor disagreement with one or two sentences. I hate having to sound like a dick, but it's really frustrating when I see notifications regarding this thread and come here to only find little contribution to our current discussion topics, and instead one of about five consecutive one-sentence posts regarding Bewear's coverage.

Since I don't just want this to be a shitpost of me venting, I'll contribute to discussion in totally agreeing with dodmen's Togekiss nomination. This thing is just stupid good in the current meta. It absolutely DICKs on stall in a metagame where stall is as prominent as ever, and unless your offensive team is packing a Steel-type or Electric-, you're going to have a very hard time dealing with it as well if the thing is carrying Twave. Togekiss has risen so much in consistency as pretty much a full on stop to most stall staples, and continues to face injustice within its current ranking alongside things like Hydreigon and Celebi. Great nomination Dodmen!
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Just going to leave my thoughts on some of the previous nominations that are significant (aka not the salazzle nom -_-).


A- ---> A: Strongly agree


Hilomilo summed this up nicely, but this thing nearly invalidates an entire playstyle by its mere presence (talking about NP of course) alone. This by itself is already extremely powerful, but what sets it apart from other dedicated stallbreakers is the fact that it brings significant defensive utility to the team it's on. It naturally checks some of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, most notably being able to hard check Krookodile, Hydreigon, Zygarde 10%, while still providing a softer check to Pokemon like Absol, Keldeo, Sharpedo, Celebi, Tsareena, Conk, Mandibuzz, aka it can come in depending on the aforementioned mons' set. This, in addition to the fact that it has the ability to either straight up cheese through its checks, or even run a coverage option for them (usually flamethrower for bulky steel types), means that this mon forces the opponent to play around it. It can essentially pick what can wall it. This strongly reminds me of NP Celebi in gen 6 -- it has the ability to pretty much decimate stall if played well, has built-in defensive synergy by being able to check a good portion of the meta, and has the coverage to pick what actually walls it. Definitely deserves to rise, and I won't be surprised if it rises even more in the distant future.


A+ ---> S: Agree

I do not agree as heavily with this nomination, simply because of the fact that I have had much less experience using this mon, so I can't confirm first-hand what the nom argues through actual direct evidence. Not much has actually changed about Aerodactyl's role in the tier, I feel. However, I feel that its ability to trap zam given how offensive teams really can't afford to run other, subpar trappers like Bisharp (AV bisharp doesn't trap zam, some people somehow think this though) or scizor (it really can't afford to run pursuit atm) . I also want to point out that its previously niche coverage options (fire and ice fang) have significant merit now, being able to lure in Scizor and Gliscor respectively. This isn't game changing, but the increased viability its coverage in turn increases its unpredictability, meaning that teams are naturally forced to prepare more for it. I don't have anything else to add because the original nomination was excellent, just affirming my support.
 
Last edited:
Regarding Togekiss: I think its ability to stallbreak is kind of exaggerated in this thread. Assuming stall's Unaware Clefable is Wish+Protect+CM (which it really should be so Togekiss doesn't straight up pp stall you) + invested in a small amount of Special Defense, Togekiss has low odds to actually break through, considering that stall can also pivot into Blissey to take non boosted Air Slashes (and even +2 shots) aimed at Clefable.

0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 73-87 (10.2 - 12.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Although Blissey can't actually hurt Togekiss, it deters Togekiss from spamming unboosted Air Slashes to hit Clefable on the switch, as the stall player can easily hard Blissey in on even +2 Air Slashes fairly comfortably.

Even assuming the Togekiss has perfect prediction, its statistically unlikely that Togekiss will flinch Clefable enough to reliably break it.

0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 87-103 (22 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even assuming Clefable never uses Protect (without Wish) on an Air Slash for Leftovers + to waste 24 Air Slash, and that Togekiss can always predict a Clefable switch in while always Nasty Plotting on Blissey switchins, Togekiss has only a 20% chance to hit and flinch three Air Slashes (in practice this is more, since a single round of extra Leftovers gives Clefable the ability to tank 6 Air Slashes).

0.6^3 x 0.95^2 = 19.4% (This does not take into account Togekiss critting and flinching simultaenously however).

0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. +1 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 58-70 (14.7 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Clefable is able to get off a Calm Mind (which is likely to happen sooner or later) Togekiss lacks any ability to break Clefable at all barring improbable amounts of flinches.

Although this analysis does not take into account variables such as Stealth Rock or Knock Off and doesn't account for every ingame factor, I hope it can be seen that at the very least Togekiss cannot be said to be a reliable stall answer.

That said, I do not have extensive experience with Togekiss against offensive teams, so I won't comment on that.

Aerodactyl to S: Support, Aerodactyl is extremely good vs offensive teams, and is probably the best Pursuit user for offensive teams right now. Its large amount of coverage options means that its very difficult to scout safely for offense, and Hone Claws can punish those attempts fairly well.

Bisharp to A+: Bisharp is still extremely difficult to answer for all styles of team, and punishes Defog ridiculously hard against almost any team; I think a drop would be a travesty.

That leads me into my personal nomination, Quagsire to B-.

The OP states that B- is for Pokemon that hold minor, relevant niches; I personally believe that Quagsire holds together UU stall right now.

Why do I think Quagsire is so important? Frankly, it's because its the only way that stall teams can ever run Defog without losing to Bisharp. Quagsire is the only Pokemon that carries reliable recovery and has the ability to hard switch into +2 Defiant Bisharp.

Without Quagsire, Stall can't actually utilise Defog without being extremely weak to Bisharp. Carrying Rapid Spin opens up a whole other can of worms, such as losing to Ghost types and having to run medicore Pokemon otherwise.

Even barring the Defog problem, consistent answers to SD Bisharp are extremely lacking, with medicore pokemon such as Poliwrath needed or fast physdef Gliscor (which loses it's Toxic Orb and plays 50/50's).

Quagsire also holds other niches in beating common pokemon such as beating most variants of SD Cobalion, every SD Scizor (sort of annoying for stall), Aerodactyl-Mega, non HP Grass Raikou, Krookodile and Absol-Mega. Although it's bad outside of stall teams, its extremely relevant niche for stall means that I think it is deserving of a raise.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Mega Aerodactyl A+ -> S Agree


Mega-Aero is still as splashable as it was back in ORAS. It has lots of offensive options to choose from while being able to fit into quite a bit of different playstyles (bulky Mega Aero is a thing now that works quite well on semi-stall / stall teams). I think Hilomilo and Highways do a really good job of explaining Mega Aero's role comparison with the current meta and its qualities so I won't be repeating any of what has already been said.

Amoonguss B+ -> A- Agree


Amoonguss is a very nice defensive pivot in the current meta, especially with the popularity of Clefable, Hippowdon, and bulky Water-types. Spore already threatens many teams with Grass-types or Mandibuzz since it forces you to "sack" one of your team to the status condition which already puts you in a disadvantage. With Regenarator, Amoonguss doesn't have to waste time recovering up after it takes a hit since it can just switch out, and then become a perfectly competent pivot again.

As for my nomination...

Chandelure B- -> C+


Don't get me wrong but, Chandelure is a great Pokemon. Fire/Ghost/Grass combination of attacks is pretty solid and hits the majority of the tier for either neutral or super effective damage while having a last slot open for a utility move such as Trick or Calm Mind. However, the presence of Dark-types such as Bisharp, Krookodile, Mega Absol, and Mega Sharpedo really don't give many opportunities for Chandelure to stay in and fire (ha) attacks. While they can't switch in directly, they can easily threaten it out due to their superior Speed tier or priority. Mega Aerodactyls are also running Pursuit more often which means Chandelure will be unable to switch out (for reference, Choice Scarf Chandelure falls short of outspeeding Mega Aerodactyl). Choice Specs hits hard, but due to Chandelure's average/mediocre Speed tier for an offensive, not bulky Pokemon, it is easily revenge killed, especially with most of the top threats are able to outspeed it without Scarf. Fire-types in general are on a slight bit of a decline nowadays as well which makes its "Fire-immunity" not too helpful. Overall, Chandelure doesn't really compare with the rest of its subrank since Pokemon like Nidoqueen, Talonflame, and Alolan-Ninetales have established niches while Chandelure's is slowly deteriorating.
 
So to back up on my nomination for Bisharp to go from S - A+ rank. I just want to first say that I'm very disappointed in the arguments people are making for Bisharp to stay S rank. They either say stuff I already said in my first post, say "I just disagree", or "Bisharp should stay S because it's so offensively good". Not once did I see anyone talk about the problem of speed, bulk, or how it compares to the rest of S rank. And just as an added note, Mega Aero doesn't compete with Clefable or Scizor either. Now, I've heard Bisharp is good with fairies, which ones? Bisharp doesn't come in that well and needs to either be at +2, have prior damage, or Corkscrew Smash for the OHKO on Clefable and Primarina (Sylveon isn't that big of a problem). Pretty sure the Nidos have the fairy problem covered a lot better since at least they can come in a lot of what Clef wants to dish out and come in on Specs boosted Moonblast from Primarina, as well as, knocking them out with sheer force boosted sludge waves. Yeah Bisharp is a hard hitter and a steel type, but fairies are fat and powerful as fuck (with great utilities and coverage might I add).
My problem with Bisharp is how it does not compete with Scizor and Clefable (who just get better and better as each week passes by). Bisharp isn't really a check to as many pokemon as people would like to think, it just has the potential to be a check. And before people have a meltdown on that sentence, you have to remember that Bisharp needs to predict what it wants to beat half of the time.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-538958053 - Take for instance this dodmen replay of Bisharp vs Latias at turn 5-7. The spartan guy outpredicts dodmen and proceeds to knock out Bisharp with Latias.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-538997068 - Turn 6-9 with dodmen going up against a cm Clefable. The harambe guy sets up a cm on Clefable as Bisharp comes in. Bisharp is forced to iron head to avoid Clefable from punching holes into the team which allows the harambe guy to go into his Bisharp answer in Bewear and knock it out (since dodmen has no solid answers for Bewear). Now, dodmen could of risked a double, but clef is just too dangerous lol.
Clefable and Scizor are just on another level entirely due to what they can bring to the table. Speed (Clef on trick room and Scizor can run scarf sometimes which is hilarious), power, set up, assist (clefable with wish/t-waving and scizor with defogging/u-turning), bulk (they can even be on stall), and unpredictability.
I mean maybe Clefable and Scizor should be S+ rank due to how fucking good they are at whatever they do. Bisharp and Mega Aero are S rank material but, Clefable and Scizor do so much more without even trying.
 
Mega Aerodactyl A+ -> S Agree


Mega-Aero is still as splashable as it was back in ORAS. It has lots of offensive options to choose from while being able to fit into quite a bit of different playstyles (bulky Mega Aero is a thing now that works quite well on semi-stall / stall teams). I think Hilomilo and Highways do a really good job of explaining Mega Aero's role comparison with the current meta and its qualities so I won't be repeating any of what has already been said.

Amoonguss B+ -> A- Agree


Amoonguss is a very nice defensive pivot in the current meta, especially with the popularity of Clefable, Hippowdon, and bulky Water-types. Spore already threatens many teams with Grass-types or Mandibuzz since it forces you to "sack" one of your team to the status condition which already puts you in a disadvantage. With Regenarator, Amoonguss doesn't have to waste time recovering up after it takes a hit since it can just switch out, and then become a perfectly competent pivot again.

As for my nomination...

Chandelure B- -> C+


Don't get me wrong but, Chandelure is a great Pokemon. Fire/Ghost/Grass combination of attacks is pretty solid and hits the majority of the tier for either neutral or super effective damage while having a last slot open for a utility move such as Trick or Calm Mind. However, the presence of Dark-types such as Bisharp, Krookodile, Mega Absol, and Mega Sharpedo really don't give many opportunities for Chandelure to stay in and fire (ha) attacks. While they can't switch in directly, they can easily threaten it out due to their superior Speed tier or priority. Mega Aerodactyls are also running Pursuit more often which means Chandelure will be unable to switch out (for reference, Choice Scarf Chandelure falls short of outspeeding Mega Aerodactyl). Choice Specs hits hard, but due to Chandelure's average/mediocre Speed tier for an offensive, not bulky Pokemon, it is easily revenge killed, especially with most of the top threats are able to outspeed it without Scarf. Fire-types in general are on a slight bit of a decline nowadays as well which makes its "Fire-immunity" not too helpful. Overall, Chandelure doesn't really compare with the rest of its subrank since Pokemon like Nidoqueen, Talonflame, and Alolan-Ninetales have established niches while Chandelure's is slowly deteriorating.
While the likes of MegaAero and Sharp running around are a pain for chandy, i think it should rise to B rather than fall. The set I personally run is Flamethrower/WoW/Hex/Taunt with flame body> flash fire and lefties. Sadly i'm on mobile rn so this post is not going to be beautiful nor an essay, but hopefully it gets the point across. Chandy does lots of fun stuff in this meta, acting as a solid check to Scizor, who can no longer BP/UTurn freely, Clef, who's moonblasts do jack vs chandy and who loses to taunt in general, and hot new meta thang Bewear, who's stabs are a lot less potent when Chandy is running around. Chandy serves as a reliable spinblocker, absolutely shitting on stuff like Forretress. Plus, Starmie doesn't ohko with scald, while unboosted hex does. Tsareena does jack to chandy, not that it's any good either. Chandy also can live a pursuit from MAero if it stays in, letting it cripple it with a WoW. If you can wisp em on the switch in then you're SET.
also: it looks p cool imo.
 
That leads me into my personal nomination, Quagsire to B-.

The OP states that B- is for Pokemon that hold minor, relevant niches; I personally believe that Quagsire holds together UU stall right now.

Why do I think Quagsire is so important? Frankly, it's because its the only way that stall teams can ever run Defog without losing to Bisharp. Quagsire is the only Pokemon that carries reliable recovery and has the ability to hard switch into +2 Defiant Bisharp.

Without Quagsire, Stall can't actually utilise Defog without being extremely weak to Bisharp. Carrying Rapid Spin opens up a whole other can of worms, such as losing to Ghost types and having to run medicore Pokemon otherwise.

Even barring the Defog problem, consistent answers to SD Bisharp are extremely lacking, with medicore pokemon such as Poliwrath needed or fast physdef Gliscor (which loses it's Toxic Orb and plays 50/50's).

Quagsire also holds other niches in beating common pokemon such as beating most variants of SD Cobalion, every SD Scizor (sort of annoying for stall), Aerodactyl-Mega, non HP Grass Raikou, Krookodile and Absol-Mega. Although it's bad outside of stall teams, its extremely relevant niche for stall means that I think it is deserving of a raise.
Agreeing with this nom. A boost in rankings because of efficiency in a specific team archetype isn't really unfounded (Stoutland). So, one can definitely make a case of bringing it higher in the rankings because of its stall viability. Unaware is a very useful ability in stall because of stall's passive nature making it vulnerable to boosters. Quagsire responds accordingly to this problem by deterring the aforementioned boosting threats with its ability. It isn't completely outclassed by Clef as they do handle a different cast of Pokemon and so, Quagsire maintains its significant utility in a stall setting.

What prevents it from being any higher is because it does suck in almost any other playstyle, where the player would rather resort to offensive measures to beat boosters. Again, because of how Quagsire performs in stall, I think it warrants at least a rise to C+, but I can see it fitting in snuggly among B- Pokemon.
 
I definitely believe Suicine should be A- ranked, or at the very least, B+ ranked. While Suicine has gained huge competition from Clefable in being a late game CM sweeper, and gained many hard counters in the form of Manetine and Volcanion, I still think Suicine is still a potent threat.

While the meta has definitely leaned towards offense, Suicine can still function as a good water type. I am not going to bore you guys with the same arguments that has been made for generations, the fact that CroCune can set up on teams that lack a proper water resist means the opponent has to play very carefully. It isn't as dangerous as CM Clef, where you basically have to keep your Scizor/Gengar alive, but Suicune punishes teams that play against it recklessly. After 1 or 2 calm minds, you can tank most specially based hits, and dish out moderately strong attacks of your own. If teams are forced to switch into something like Specs Raikou in order to force it out, Suicine can potentially burn it with scald. Though scald got nerfed, the fact that it still has a 30% chance to do an extra 6% damage AND halve most physical attackers attack stat is just fantastic. Couple this with the fact that Suicune can pair well with hail (Alo-Ninetails) and forms a decent core with Hippo means that it can rack up some decent chip with weather damage.

While CroCune is great, I do believe the RestRoar set is underrated at the moment. The premise is simple, set up with CM, and roar things like CM Clef that try to boost along side of it. It takes a bit more care in playing with, but it does so much work when paired with hazard support.

Lastly, the offense CM Suicine is great in this meta. Using Timid Max speed means that's able to outspeed many bulky mons that try are being thrown around to try to beat offense. Things like Specially Defensive SD Gliscor run enough speed to outpace things like Adamant or Jolly Bisharp just get blown out by timid suicine. They thing they can boost up quickly and do big damage, but Suicine just says no. While you lose its greatest asset in its basically unrivaled bulk, it still has great natural bulk to sponge off some very powerful attacks. Just for reference:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 263-309 (77.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's with no bulk from suicine. Here's a replay against Manipulative. There was a bit of luck involved, but the fact that he didn't expect offensive Cune meant that I was able to nab a nice hit on Volcanion, do huge damage to Latias, and take out a Krook from full. It did so much work:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-542517900
 
I definitely believe Suicine should be A- ranked, or at the very least, B+ ranked. While Suicine has gained huge competition from Clefable in being a late game CM sweeper, and gained many hard counters in the form of Manetine and Volcanion, I still think Suicine is still a potent threat.

While the meta has definitely leaned towards offense, Suicine can still function as a good water type. I am not going to bore you guys with the same arguments that has been made for generations, the fact that CroCune can set up on teams that lack a proper water resist means the opponent has to play very carefully. It isn't as dangerous as CM Clef, where you basically have to keep your Scizor/Gengar alive, but Suicune punishes teams that play against it recklessly. After 1 or 2 calm minds, you can tank most specially based hits, and dish out moderately strong attacks of your own. If teams are forced to switch into something like Specs Raikou in order to force it out, Suicine can potentially burn it with scald. Though scald got nerfed, the fact that it still has a 30% chance to do an extra 6% damage AND halve most physical attackers attack stat is just fantastic. Couple this with the fact that Suicune can pair well with hail (Alo-Ninetails) and forms a decent core with Hippo means that it can rack up some decent chip with weather damage.

While CroCune is great, I do believe the RestRoar set is underrated at the moment. The premise is simple, set up with CM, and roar things like CM Clef that try to boost along side of it. It takes a bit more care in playing with, but it does so much work when paired with hazard support.

Lastly, the offense CM Suicine is great in this meta. Using Timid Max speed means that's able to outspeed many bulky mons that try are being thrown around to try to beat offense. Things like Specially Defensive SD Gliscor run enough speed to outpace things like Adamant or Jolly Bisharp just get blown out by timid suicine. They thing they can boost up quickly and do big damage, but Suicine just says no. While you lose its greatest asset in its basically unrivaled bulk, it still has great natural bulk to sponge off some very powerful attacks. Just for reference:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 263-309 (77.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's with no bulk from suicine. Here's a replay against Manipulative. There was a bit of luck involved, but the fact that he didn't expect offensive Cune meant that I was able to nab a nice hit on Volcanion, do huge damage to Latias, and take out a Krook from full. It did so much work:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-542517900
Just gonna point out that you didnt put an item on suicune. I see you're pointing out that cune is super bulky but that calc is a bit misleading.
 

Kushalos

ÜN ÜN ÜN
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
OUPL Champion
Pretty weird how Slowbro is in B+ rn and Slowking being unranked. I feel like the better special bulk is way more useful in this meta for pivoting and switching into shit like Clef, Lati, Volcanion etc. while you can still run full phys def to do Slowbro's job of tanking Aero and Cobalion. Nomming Slowking for at least B and probably B+.
 

ehT

:dog:
is a Contributor Alumnus
Ahh, sniped -- agree with Slowking for B, though B- would make sense, too. Yeah, Slowking is really underrated right now. Being able to actually eat Hydros and Dracos, which Slowbro can't do all that well, while also walling Aero and Coba is a valuable niche over Slowbro. I've messed around with an AV set, as well, with Scald / Psyshock / D-Tail / one of Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Signal Beam, and it's a pretty neat pivot for shit like Lati, Keldeo, and Starmie while also being able to annoy some setup mons (but not any of the S ranks unfortunately) and typical switch-ins like Hydrei with D-Tail.
 
Last edited:
Pretty weird how Slowbro is in B+ rn and Slowking being unranked. I feel like the better special bulk is way more useful in this meta for pivoting and switching into shit like Clef, Lati, Volcanion etc. while you can still run full phys def to do Slowbro's job of tanking Aero and Cobalion. Nomming Slowking for at least B and probably B+.
I can agree on Slowking for B, but wait to see if Slowking does good enough for B+. And the fact Slowking can eat Dracos and Steam Eruptions more that Slowbro is a huge benefit Slowking has over Slowbro, as well Slowking being able to still take on some physical threats Slowbro can. So I can agree on Slowking for B.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ehT
theres literally no point in running full phys def slowking over slowbro

you'd only want to run slowking if you're using more spdef than slowbro can reach (AV), or you like Dtail

(or u like his cool hat)

but ya agree that they should be in a similar rank, tbh cant harness the brain power rn to decide which one is marginally better
 

Accel

thanks for the memories
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus


Nominating Nidoqueen for B, possibly even B+.

In all honesty, I feel like Nidoqueen's a bit out of place among everything else that's ranked at B-. Its wallbreaking potential is as stellar as ever, and mostly everything ranked B+ or higher at the moment is either OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by its two stabs and Ice Beam. In the past, most balance and offensive teams have had an immensely tough time switching into Nidoqueen, and this gen's iteration of UU is no different. On top of that, Nidoqueen's strengths are even more highlighted in this meta due to the omnipresence of Clefable, which basically allows Nidoqueen to pivot in safely (barring Knock Off or the rare Ice Beam) and start wearing down the opposition. It also has some really good synergy with a lot of common team choices, such as Latias and Raikou. Defensively, it's no slouch either as its natural bulk allows for it to sponge most physical hits even with little to no defensive investment. This last point is actually why Nidoqueen's been a more popular choice as compared to Nidoking in the past, and while the obvious speed difference has its perks, I believe that Nidoqueen's defensive utility is still so useful since it allows for it to 1v1 certain things that Nidoking can't. I know past gens' viability rankings have fairly little relevance in regards to the current tier, but the fact that Nidoqueen's been ranked higher than Nidoking in both the gen 5 and gen 6 VRs just goes to show that maybe, just maybe, Nidoqueen's bulk and freedom to run a Modest nature might allow it to be on the same level, or even higher than Nidoking.
 
agree with most of the above posts,not a lot to say, tho i do have my own nom.


i think haxorus in c+ is a little weird, since after playing with it a fair bit it is an absolute monster against most defensive teams rn, especially stall. mold breaker is really great for it as it lets it bypass unaware mons in quag and clef that are pretty much staples for those kinds of teams. it's not particularly bad vs offense either since a +1 hax can still pressure them thanks to its workable coverage and decent speed tier, although alakazam is particularly annoying unless you're running the otherwise mediocre dual chop. it's not the best booster in the tier, but i think the meta is kind enough for it that it warrants a raise. as a dragon type i think it's better than zygarde but that's because that thing is pretty shit, but that's besides the point.

also think mega shark should be s rank for pretty much the reasons i stated in my post in the np thread
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top