Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Hey, it's Lord Toxic, that dickhead who keeps running Stall in tournaments. I've been playing ZU for... I think a month at this point (may be five weeks), so I figured I'd throw my hat into the ring with where I agree and disagree with placements.


Agree:
Komala: S -> A+
Yea, I agree with this. It's definitely one of the stronger mons in the tier, but not as centralizing as many other mons (Shiftry and Swanna being the two I've seen suggested). Even as a Stall player, which you'd think would get fucked over most by Comatose, he's easy to wear down and switch into with a decently bulky mon.

Shiftry: A+ -> S
Aaand we have the ACTUAL strongest mon in the tier. This thing is a devastating threat to any and every playstyle, from HO to Balance to Stall, due to powerful stab; priority; a variety of boosting moves; the ability to pivot; powerful utility moves and even more. If you don't prepare for this mon when building, you're getting destroyed. Bear in mind also that Silvally's forms are rising and falling in usage almost solely according to their matchups against Shiftry (Dark, Dragon & Fighting being the best, with Water falling off the map) and you have the definition of a centralizing mon. I'm actually on the point of making a Semistall team with a 5 mon stall core and cleanup w/ Shiftry just to show off the point that it fits onto LITERALLY any team.


Disagree:
Swanna: A+ -> S
Definitely a strong mon, but once you realize what set it's running, it's very easy to counter. The Z Mirror Move set is fucked over by any foul play mon, faster offensive mons, resistances and without Rain Dance, you become painfully exposed to ANY status - be it Burn cutting your attack down, Toxic making you die in a handful of turns or Paralysis making you SO easy to kill in response. The Defog/Roost set works great against stallier teams, but you retain the previous issues of losing to faster offensive mons and dropping to status. Z Rain Dance is easily the strongest of the three main sets, due to the speed boost making you an asspain to revenge kill & the Rain Boosted Water STAB being harder to take a hit from, but Special Sponges still take it on with very little trouble. :/ A powerful mon for sure, but not a centralizing one.

Calcs

Z Mirror Move:
+2 252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Fan: 105-125 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Pyukumuku: 90-106 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 98% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers
+2 252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 24+ Def Avalugg: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
Z Rain:
252 SpA Swanna Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky in Rain: 153-181 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
252 SpA Swanna Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Fan: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Offensive Defogger:
252 SpA Life Orb Swanna Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 70-83 (22 - 26.1%) -- 6% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Swanna Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 133-157 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers

My thoughts:
Lickilicky: A- -> A
This is definitely a staple of Stall, due to bring immune to taunt and a straight up sponge, but it's also able to slot into more balanced and offensive teams, preventing set up with the likes of Dragon Tail and net surprise KOs on the physical mons it would struggle with by using Counter. It deserves to be above A- due to being significantly less niche than people seem to have been giving it credit for and due to the downswing of pokemon like Bronzor, who would essentially be able to switch in for free.

Pyukumuku: A- -> A/A+
Block and Z-Spite means this mon is able to essentially remove an enemy mon from the game the second it comes in. Unaware prevents set up being able to screw with you and even after you've run out of Spite PP, you come in and trap statused mons to die. There's very little this pokemon can't do, only truly being weak to powerful SE Stab, like LOrb Abomasnow's Wood Hammer (which I've seen exactly once across the last month or so, despite it being classed as A tier) or Specs Zebstrika. A mon with very few weaknesses, excels at its job, dents any and every team style and that's easily supported doesn't really deserve to have a - in front of it.

Altaria: A -> C+/B-
This pokemon really does VERY little without major caveats. It's a defogger, BUT it's weak to rocks. It's a set up sweeper, BUT its only decent STABs are Dragon Claw and Outrage (and there are better DDance sweepers). It's got decent special defense and Heal Bell, but there are other pokemon that does these jobs so much better, such as Lickilicky and Togetic. The only reason you would bring Alt over another mon is Perish Song, which doesn't work so well in a tier that lacks decent Spikers outside of Crustle (who would be a HO Suicide lead), so it's hard to rack up damage with hazards. This mon is niche as hell and that Niche isn't especially effective.

Stunfisk: C -> B/B+
This pokemon is niche, not gonna lie, but that it does it damn well. It takes Electric, Rock and Flying attacks like nobody's business and doesn't have any problem staying in on a scald or two to Toxic an enemy wall. Its Bulk combined with the ability to set up with Rocks and get off powerful Earth Powers on mons that don't resist it - such as Electivire/Zebstrika/Rapidash/Muk/Silvally/Mareanie, and even a few who DO - such as Pinsir/Komala (assuming no Wood Hammer - scout this with Protect). It shouldn't be considered for EVERY team, but when it fits your team, it will excel for you.


I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts.

Shiftry’s problem is that it gets worn down easily by itself and its checks. Its hard to switch it in to anything for free besides Bronz, and can be set up fodder for Combusk, Z Encore Chat, Z Mirror Swanna, Z Strength Sap Bell, SD Siv Fight, and more niche mons or sets. It isn’t perfect but it totally is centralizing.

Swanna as an S rank comes with it’s versatility, and I think you are also misjudging the Z Mirror set. Unlike Shiftry, Swanna can manage itself no matter what set it is. If Shift wants to deal with its checks like Siv-Fight or Mawhile, it needs to be a full special attacker for the most part, and that makes it so much more managable. Swanna on the other hand always earns its spot as either a scarf, z move user, or almost anything you can come up with it. It has a phenomenal speed tier and a relatively unresisted dual STAB. Thats what makes it such a great Z move user, because it’s speed can make it likely for it to pull it off, and its STABs could use the extra bp.

Thats the thing with the Z Mirror Move, cause really its more like a Z Brave Bird set. Swanna still functions as a fast mon with a strong BB that can be even stronger with the Z move. Its only going for Z Mirror in late game situations if it needs it. Otherwise it should save it for BB. Mind you BB into Z-BB can do a full 80% to Pyuk, and if your opponent thinks you’re scarf they may never even know its coming.

Quick Ones:

Kom: Yup
Liki: Yup
Pyuk: Nope, because while Spite is a great wincon and its totally a staple, its still shut down by a lot of things: Taunt, Toxic, Electric/Grass stabs, huge PP moves like Haze, ect. And having to run like Rest to not waste PP in the end game and to recover status is coold but again really situational. Works fine as A-, but for now it can just get worn down too easily without packing a punch for the midgame.
Alt: Little too low but I’m for the drop. You should also check out full physdef, its a good mixed Shift check and walls some other things as well. Not to mention the Toxic absorb with Natural Cure. Not a bad mon but has flaws in its typing an 4MS.
Stun: Stunfisk is weak to everything in the meta atm. Grass, Water, Ice, Ground; I mean almost every offensive mon has a STAB or coverage move with this type. And defensive mons can all Toxic it, so no immunity there. Just an annoying mon to deal with but as a Ground type it faces competition with Golem and it’s better phys def and offensive trade offs, and its a still p weak itself and reliant on status heavily. Meanwhile other Electric types can at least pivot with volt. It has its niche, But I wouldn’t say higher than B-.

 

[AlolanSableye21]

Pyuk: Nope, because while Spite is a great wincon and its totally a staple, its still shut down by a lot of things: Taunt, Toxic, Electric/Grass stabs, huge PP moves like Haze, ect. And having to run like Rest to not waste PP in the end game and to recover status is coold but again really situational. Works fine as A-, but for now it can just get worn down too easily without packing a punch for the midgame.

Alt: Little too low but I’m for the drop. You should also check out full physdef, its a good mixed Shift check and walls some other things as well. Not to mention the Toxic absorb with Natural Cure. Not a bad mon but has flaws in its typing an 4MS.

Pyuku still wins PP stall wars when the opponent has the likes of Haze and Rest screws prevents the opponent winning with Toxic. I did already address that he can lose to powerful SE STAB, but the thing with Taunt is that you're able to switch. Your opponent Taunts and it doesn't stop you switching, or just using Z-Spite if you needed the heal before you do. It delays the inevitable, and without a good spiker in the tier (the only options we have are Crustle are QUILLADIN for christ's sake), that isn't enough to rack up some decent damage against you and wear you down.

The ideal Pyuku set:

Pyukufuku

Pyukumuku @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spite
- Recover
- Rest
- Block

With Altaria, I'll give its Physically defensive set a check, but I'm not expecting wonders from it :/ As for Stunfisk, its Bulk lets it take on more than you'd expect. There's no denying that it has bad matchups among the higher tiered mons, but it also has some damn good ones (some of note listed below). It does need support, which is why I'd never push it to be A Tier, but it's also damn good at supporting other defensive mons with its resistances and STAB Earth Power, which is why I'd say mid B Tier is more than fair for it.

Stargazer Calcs

252+ Atk Komala Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 135-160 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 128-152 (30.3 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers
252 Atk Electivire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 170-200 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers (you have Earth Power to threaten it like hell)
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 132-156 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers
252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers (Guaranteed 4hko when you factor in Protect for more recovery)
+1 0 Atk Vigoroth Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 153-180 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- 95% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers (Keep up pressure with Earth Power and Protect for recovery and you win)

 

[5gen]

Going to comment on noms I feel could use more discussion.

A to B+ ~ Should not drop, still effective in the current metagame

When you compare this to the other top tier Vally forms, its obvious this defogger really doesn't stand up anymore. Pure water typing doesn't help very much as you're worn down so incredibly fast you're often forced to chose between defogging and taking chip getting it in or using it to actually wall the things you'd run it to beat like Floatzel, Combusken, and Swanna (even tho you really don't do well into any of them). And your ability to get chipped only comes into play more and more when you try to hard switch it into SR users to try and defog out the rocks. Its not a removal mon you can switch into setters and its typing really doesn't help you beat anything useful in the meta anymore, especially as you're forced to give up its trademark speed for the needed bulk.

I agree that Silvally-Water is worse off defensively in this metagame and that by virtue of its typing it does not effectively switch into offensive Golem and Bronzor. Silvally formes such as Fighting and Grass can at least pivot into one of Golem's STABs and can also check other threats such as Shiftry, but this alone does not convince me that Silvally-Water should drop from A.

While bulky Defog U-turn plays more as a pivot, I've been having more success with Defog 3 Attacks. Silvally-Water naturally gets chipped down by Swanna, Floatzel, and Combusken as you've said, but it's still one of the more effective offensive checks to them. Similar to how Silvally-Dragon plays, Defog 3 Attacks Silvally-Water acts as a really good utility mon that can exert a lot of pressure against teams that lack a dedicated special wall. The difference between it and offensive Silvally-Dragon is the extra coverage you get without U-turn (i.e Tbolt for Mareanie and other Water-types), its Ice resistance, and no drawback STAB (although it's weaker). These traits are especially useful at the moment because of the popularity of those aforementioned Pokemon as well as Abomasnow, Rapidash, and Mareanie. The role compression and flexibility Silvally-Water has keeps it in A for me.

A+ to S ~ Disagree, not an S rank yet

That may seem controversial to some people and to others not, but
Electivire -> S RANK
I've been saying this for a while,but Electivire really deserves this spot,since Frostom's departure Electivire got to be always incredible the way it is,Electivire is by far the best Choice scarf user in the tier which any other Scarfer has to look around for it, EQ Volt Switch Wild charge and Ice punch is annoying to switch-in plus theres the factor that it can bring Special scarf sets w flamethrower, a incredible LO breaking set and even some more niche sets like Z move,Electivire is also super splashable going from some HO teams,BOs,Balances and some other ones it can bring around, I dont know what to write more

Electivire is definitely the most splashable Choice Scarf user in the tier and its non-Scarf sets add to the pressure it puts on building. That being said, I do feel that Electivire is one of those Pokemon that are more threatening on paper than in practice. While losing Tangela removes a defensive check, Electivire still has to play around Electric immunities, bulkier Pokemon, and other offensive checks such as Golem, Gourgeist-XL, and Shiftry. Even though this logic mainly applies to the Choice Scarf set, other sets such as Life Orb, Expert Belt, and Z move still have to watch out for those Pokemon and are even more susceptible to being revenge killed. Moreover, Wild Charge sucks as STAB. The recoil and base power leaves a lot to be desired and I feel that it really holds Electivire back from being as good as it can be. For these reasons, I do not see Electivire as an S-rank Pokemon in this meta.

A to B-/C+ ~ Agree with a drop, but only to A-

Altaria: A -> C+/B-
This pokemon really does VERY little without major caveats. It's a defogger, BUT it's weak to rocks. It's a set up sweeper, BUT its only decent STABs are Dragon Claw and Outrage (and there are better DDance sweepers). It's got decent special defense and Heal Bell, but there are other pokemon that does these jobs so much better, such as Lickilicky and Togetic. The only reason you would bring Alt over another mon is Perish Song, which doesn't work so well in a tier that lacks decent Spikers outside of Crustle (who would be a HO Suicide lead), so it's hard to rack up damage with hazards. This mon is niche as hell and that Niche isn't especially effective.

I nommed this to drop in the last meta and admittedly forgot to include it in the voting slate, so a drop is overdue imo. Like you said, Altaria struggles as a Defogger. However, Altaria isn't getting its due credit in your post. While Altaria is a Defogger that is weak to rocks, it's one of the few with reliable recovery and one that does not care about status because of Natural Cure. Moreover, it can act as a physical or special wall depending on what a team needs and has great utility options in Haze and Heal Bell. Lickilicky and Togetic are not really fair comparisons because Altaria is not a dedicated cleric, checks different things, and plays different. Also, I don't think I've ever seen Perish Song Altaria on a competitive build or in a competitive setting because it can't really trap anything to make it work. The biggest thing Altaria has going for it imo is the combination of bulk, typing, and utility options that allow it to check prominent threats such as SD Combusken, mixed Shiftry, Firium Rapidash, and Swanna to an extent.

C to B/B+ ~Disagree

Stunfisk: C -> B/B+
This pokemon is niche, not gonna lie, but that it does it damn well. It takes Electric, Rock and Flying attacks like nobody's business and doesn't have any problem staying in on a scald or two to Toxic an enemy wall. Its Bulk combined with the ability to set up with Rocks and get off powerful Earth Powers on mons that don't resist it - such as Electivire/Zebstrika/Rapidash/Muk/Silvally/Mareanie, and even a few who DO - such as Pinsir/Komala (assuming no Wood Hammer - scout this with Protect). It shouldn't be considered for EVERY team, but when it fits your team, it will excel for you.

I recently tested Stunfisk and found that it does exactly what you want it to do for a C rank. It has a respectable niche as a Stealth Rock user because of its Electric typing, bulky, and ability to spread paralysis. However, Stunfisk is simply mediocre. Electivire chips it down with EQ or Ice Punch, the most popular Rock-type is Golem which bodies it, and it's the same with Flying-types and Swanna. Moreover, the rising popularity of Abomasnow and Shiftry really hurts Stunfisk, especially because of how passive it is.

Here are some noms of my own:

A to A+
In my opinion, Abomasnow is a top five Pokemon in the tier right now because of how good each of its main are and the pressure it puts on building. Between Specs, SD, Scarf, and SD Mixed, there's limited counterplay to Abomasnow and even though on paper Abomasnow has little defensive utility, aggressive doubles make it immediately threatening. The declining popularity of Bronzor as well as a more physically inclined metagame also play a role in its increased effectiveness in the metagame. However, I do recognize that metagame adaptations to Shiftry such as more Silvally-Fighting, Firium Rapidash, and Combusken help mitigate Abomasnow's effectiveness.

A- to A
Mareanie's defensive utility make it an A rank Pokemon imo. It is one of the few Pokemon that can pivot into Specs Abomasnow, Combusken, Swanna, etc. Although Mareanie is passive and can invite in set up sweepers or breakers, the utility it has in Toxic Spikes, Haze, and Knock Off really adds a dynamic to Mareanie that sets it apart from other walls. Mareanie is in a position in the meta where it can pick and choose what to check, which is invaluable for balance teams. For example, with Sludge Bomb it can better check Specs Abomasnow and prevent Shiftry from coming in for free, and with Haze it counters Combusken. Knock Off on Mareanie does Knock Off things and helps whittle down things like Kadabra and Altaria who could otherwise switch in easily.

B+ to B
I've been testing Simipour and have found that it has declined in the current metagame. My main issues with Simipour is how easy it is to pressure and its reliance on set up to be effective. Furthermore teams prep well for Water+Ice coverage and so it has some 4mss with Sub, Taunt, Focus Blast, and Grass Knot. Overall I find that Simipour naturally struggles in this metagame and should drop to B because of it.

Might comment on S rank another time or just in the VR slate.

 

[Calucha]

I'll just do the ones I heavily disagree with:

Electivire: A+ -> S Disagree
Without a doubt Evire is one of the best scarfers in the tier and just generally a good mon, that being said, it has started to face competition from other scarfers namely Rapidash, Swanna and the Simi's. So while I can agree with what Ampha is saying, I can't say it's "better" than any of the mons I just mentioned. Pivoting is one of the only things Evire has over these mons and it's a niche that honestly just doesn't validate going to S in my opinion, since Electric immunities/resistances are everywhere and allow Evire to be more exloitable.

Komala: S ->A+ Disagree
The main reason I disagree with Caboche's analysis of Komala and want to keep it in S rank is because he only gets half of it right. By this I mean that most of what he said is true and all stuff I can agree with, the part that is missing and should be there is the scarf set. While admittedly Komala struggles with some of the more offensive threats in the meta (Swanna, Shiftry, etc), this meta at least in my opinion helps to further prove Komala is S rank. Scarf Komala has risen in usage and helped further show it can basically do whatever the hell it wants. Scarf allows Komala to better handle most of the threats mentioned. Fightvally can't switch in since its 2KO by return after just SR chip, Swanna after rocks drops to Return as well, and Shiftry can't afford to not click Knock Off since Komala can be basically be any number of sets. Set Up, Hazard Control, Cleaner/Scarfer, Wallbreaker, SdDef Wall, Stall tect and so on. Komala just keeps rolling into each new meta and giving itself something to do. Komala continues being a huge factor for every team to consider both in building for and against. Komala might not be as influential as Shiftry or Swanna, but at the same time, it's much more influential than anything else that remains in the A ranks.
Here's a replay of scarf Komala in round 2 of Spring seasonal surprising the hell out of me and taking out my shiftry, winning the game.
[ https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-888617776 ]

Beartic: C+ ->B Disagree
I would write more for this, but honestly ho3n does a great job of describing why it should stay C, Abomasnow. Beartic alone doesn't warrant B rank, it's only with the help of other great mons and Abomasnow that it even hopes to function that well. A mon that reliant on other A rank mons can't be B rank in my opinion.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Beartic: C+ ->B Disagree
I would write more for this, but honestly ho3n does a great job of describing why it should stay C, Abomasnow. Beartic alone doesn't warrant B rank, it's only with the help of other great mons and Abomasnow that it even hopes to function that well. A mon that reliant on other A rank mons can't be B rank in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

I do believe that it is a fallacy to say that just because one mon depends on an other makes it less viable. We see Swampert be B+ in OU even though it relies on Pelliper, which isn’t even an A rank mon itself. Again, another example is gen 5 OU’s Excadril and how it with either Ttar or Hippo was ban worthy. The combo of Bear and Aboma should not be ignored, and while I of course don’t believe that Bear is close to A rank, I don't believe that it is the dependency. If it was a reactionary dependency, like how Shii is used more so now to check Shift, I would agree. But this is an offensive relationship, and it's more so the opponent that needs to have the right MU against you, not the other way around.

More about Bear:
Bear is a powerful, fast mon with hail up, which is incredibly easy because of Aboma. SD Aboma helps get rid of Mare, Pyuck, and can even hurt Bronzor hard after a couple Sword Dances. It is a threatening mon in its own right, and helps facilitate the sweep with Bear.

Bear isnt meant to outspeed any noticeable scarfers, but it does outspeed most of the unboosted meta and hits really hard. Ice/Fighting coverage is more than enough, and even Icicle Crash's 30% chance to flinch means you can get through some checks. Against the Mare in the VR:

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There's an incredible power and WB potential with bear that is a core member on my ladder stomping, tour crushing team. I don't think any other C or even B- mon has this powerful and constant strategy. It is consistently good.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Ariados Unranked -> C-/C
As the only ZU mon with access to both Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes, Ariados has a niche and thus deserves to be ranked. Its decent 70/70/70 bulk means you can often get off Sticky Web and at least one layers of Tspikes up almost every time. Its attack is also a not too shabby 90, meaning it can have somewhat of an offensive presence with Megahorn and Poison Jab. It has some nice priority options in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, and has access to Stomping Tantrum which allows it to not get stopped dead in its tracks by steel types. Because of this, you could potentially run an SD set on a trick room team or a bulky band (althought I haven't tried it myself and am nomming Ariados mostly because it can set up webs + tspikes).

 

[Calucha]

I do believe that it is a fallacy to say that just because one mon depends on an other makes it less viable. We see Swampert be B+ in OU even though it relies on Pelliper, which isn’t even an A rank mon itself. Again, another example is gen 5 OU’s Excadril and how it with either Ttar or Hippo was ban worthy. The combo of Bear and Aboma should not be ignored, and while I of course don’t believe that Bear is close to A rank, I don't believe that it is the dependency. If it was a reactionary dependency, like how Shii is used more so now to check Shift, I would agree. But this is an offensive relationship, and it's more so the opponent that needs to have the right MU against you, not the other way around.

You give some interesting examples but your drawing false comparisons. Excadrill and Swampert do not need to be used with their respective weather. I'm by no means an OU expert of any kind, but Swampert can and is used outside rain. Even without rain, Swampert-Mega is still a beefy tank, has access to SR, has great typing, decent speed, and so on. Excadrill falls into the same category as Swampert, a great mon that is only made better with their weather, not made by their weather. This isn't OU so I don't wanna continue talking about it, but my point should hopefully be made clearer. Beartic can't function well outside of hail. Everything you describe about it is right, but that's only true in the vacuum of hail, otherwise it's an just another slow Ice type waiting to be hit with by the powerfull breakers in ZU.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

You give some interesting examples but your drawing false comparisons. Excadrill and Swampert do not need to be used with their respective weather. I'm by no means an OU expert of any kind, but Swampert can and is used outside rain. Even without rain, Swampert-Mega is still a beefy tank, has access to SR, has great typing, decent speed, and so on. Excadrill falls into the same category as Swampert, a great mon that is only made better with their weather, not made by their weather. This isn't OU so I don't wanna continue talking about it, but my point should hopefully be made clearer. Beartic can't function well outside of hail. Everything you describe about it is right, but that's only true in the vacuum of hail, otherwise it's an just another slow Ice type waiting to be hit with by the powerfull breakers in ZU.

>One quick trip to the OU chatroom later

Also mind you I said gen 5 Exca, which was banned because of perma sand, not the Mold Breaker set.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

Mega Swampert will never be used without rain in OU. Ever. However, your point is still not a good one.

However, rain is a polarizing playstyle in SM OU because of how much it has going for it as an archetype. Hail on the other hand, does not have these things that make rain so good in OU, so it's not a valid comparison. Mega Swampert is the staple Pokemon on OU Rain teams, which is why it is ranked so high because rain is such a good archetype as a whole. Full Hail in ZU is not a viable archetype because it doesn't have the right support, Beartic is super slow even under hail, Abomasnow can't afford to run Icy Rock which limits turns of hail and further limiting Beartic's usefulness, and Hail has no other things going for it with no other abusers or offensive Pokemon that benefit from it. No boosted power under hail, no defensive synergies, and no other typing other than the specific niche ice type even benefits from hail. This is contrary to OU Rain where there are many rain abusers outside of Swift Swimmers like Pert and Kingdra (Ash Greninja and Manaphy are common), Pelipper can pivot with U-turn, Grass-types like Ferrothorn appreciate Rain, Tornadus-T is able to check opposing Grass-types, pivot, remove hazards, and has 100% accurate Hurricanes, I could go on. Its very simple how rain functions there and Hail does not function the same way here as a result of how weak a weather it is.

Excadrill (in particular Sand Rush) in BW was banned because of how the metagame functions with Latias being incredibly dominant, Tyranitar being a primary way of trapping and removing such a broken aspect, and Excadrill abusing the sand left by opposing Tyranitars. Hell, gen5 has permanant weather, I don't really see how you're making a comparison here. Tyranitar + Sand Rush Excadrill hasn't been allowed in years in BW due to the ban on Weather + Weather speed boosting abilities thats been in place for a while. You couldn't even put the two on the same team so Excadrill wasn't even made by its own weather, rather opposing Tyranitars on sand teams set the sand for Sand Rush Excadrills on Rain builds. I'm not the best at explaining this in such a simplified way but I think you can understand.

Nearly All of these Pokemon on OU weather builds also have significant defensive utility to speak of as well.

I don't like talking about other metas in ZU but I hope I've illustrated how both Mega Swampert and BW Excadrill are non comparable. Beartic is pretty damn awful, HO weather sweepers should not be outsped by every scarfer in the tier, its singular STAB isn't great and its coverage is bad too. It has no bulk or defensive utility in the least, and while it possesses decent attacking stats, hail is not a viable archetype and as a result Beartic is not a good Pokemon.

edit: I hope this is a cue to stop comparing ZU to OU and BW OU unless there is something seriously meaningful you have to add

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Mega Swampert will never be used without rain in OU. Ever. However, your point is still not a good one.

However, rain is a polarizing playstyle in SM OU because of how much it has going for it as an archetype. Hail on the other hand, does not have these things that make rain so good in OU, so it's not a valid comparison. Mega Swampert is the staple Pokemon on OU Rain teams, which is why it is ranked so high because rain is such a good archetype as a whole. Full Hail in ZU is not a viable archetype because it doesn't have the right support, Beartic is super slow even under hail, Abomasnow can't afford to run Icy Rock which limits turns of hail and further limiting Beartic's usefulness, and Hail has no other things going for it with no other abusers or offensive Pokemon that benefit from it. No boosted power under hail, no defensive synergies, and no other typing other than the specific niche ice type even benefits from hail. This is contrary to OU Rain where there are many rain abusers outside of Swift Swimmers like Pert and Kingdra (Ash Greninja and Manaphy are common), Pelipper can pivot with U-turn, Grass-types like Ferrothorn appreciate Rain, Tornadus-T is able to check opposing Grass-types, pivot, remove hazards, and has 100% accurate Hurricanes, I could go on. Its very simple how rain functions there and Hail does not function the same way here as a result of how weak a weather it is.

Excadrill (in particular Sand Rush) in BW was banned because of how the metagame functions with Latias being incredibly dominant, Tyranitar being a primary way of trapping and removing such a broken aspect, and Excadrill abusing the sand left by opposing Tyranitars. Hell, gen5 has permanant weather, I don't really see how you're making a comparison here. Tyranitar + Sand Rush Excadrill hasn't been allowed in years in BW due to the ban on Weather + Weather speed boosting abilities thats been in place for a while. You couldn't even put the two on the same team so Excadrill wasn't even made by its own weather, rather opposing Tyranitars on sand teams set the sand for Sand Rush Excadrills on Rain builds. I'm not the best at explaining this in such a simplified way but I think you can understand.

Nearly All of these Pokemon on OU weather builds also have significant defensive utility to speak of as well.

I don't like talking about other metas in ZU but I hope I've illustrated how both Mega Swampert and BW Excadrill are non comparable. Beartic is pretty damn awful, HO weather sweepers should not be outsped by every scarfer in the tier, its singular STAB isn't great and its coverage is bad too. It has no bulk or defensive utility in the least, and while it possesses decent attacking stats, hail is not a viable archetype and as a result Beartic is not a good Pokemon.

edit: I hope this is a cue to stop comparing ZU to OU and BW OU unless there is something seriously meaningful you have to add

>Full Hail in ZU is not a viable archetype because it doesn't have the right support,
Absolutely true. Full hail has too many weaknesses both offensively and defensively that it wouldn;t be pulled off.
>Beartic is super slow even under hail,
You make it sound like 398 is slow. It outspeed every viable non boosted mon and has an attack stat of 394. Its ridiculous how hard it hits, and you need speed control to deal with it. You make it sound like its as slow as scarf Ramp or something. I mean it outspeeds +2 Shell Smash Crustle, and thats a threat that needs to waste a turn to get even slower than that to sweep at the cost of lower defenses or an item.

Also, 95/80/80 bulk aint bad??? Its comparable to Bouf.

>Abomasnow can't afford to run Icy Rock
Why not? I run mixed SD, it's fine itemless. It still does the job great and an LO only makes me more expendable anyways. I mean, have you any calcs that even back this up?
>Hail has no other things going for it with no other abusers or offensive Pokemon that benefit from it... No boosted power under hail, no defensive synergies
Really wrong here. The chip from hail that affects almost everything is awesome for getting the chip for Bear to kill and breaking sashes and sturdy. Bear can possibly get a whole 24% of chip with just Subsitute on all the Evio mons, Siv forms, whatever that isnt Lefties. For example:
252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 256-303 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
versus subbing three times + rocks for a total of 24% chip: 56.3% chance to OHKO
or even a 4th sub + rocks for a 100% 1HKO.

Full hail is not viable, no. But Having Abomasnow with Beartic support is totally fine. You have 4 other slots to teambuild for, and Hail makes Bear an overwhelming threat. In comparison, many other B- mons like Raticate, Regi, Ramp, and Butterfree are either outclassed or have limited teambuilding niches that can be hard to pull off. The combo of Bear + Snow is so natural and effective, and lets you get boosted with no turn of set up.

 

[Xayah]

>Full Hail in ZU is not a viable archetype because it doesn't have the right support,
Absolutely true. Full hail has too many weaknesses both offensively and defensively that it wouldn;t be pulled off.
>Beartic is super slow even under hail,
You make it sound like 398 is slow. It outspeed every viable non boosted mon and has an attack stat of 394. Its ridiculous how hard it hits, and you need speed control to deal with it. You make it sound like its as slow as scarf Ramp or something. I mean it outspeeds +2 Shell Smash Crustle, and thats a threat that needs to waste a turn to get even slower than that to sweep at the cost of lower defenses or an item.

Also, 95/80/80 bulk aint bad??? Its comparable to Bouf.

>Abomasnow can't afford to run Icy Rock
Why not? I run mixed SD, it's fine itemless. It still does the job great and an LO only makes me more expendable anyways. I mean, have you any calcs that even back this up?
>Hail has no other things going for it with no other abusers or offensive Pokemon that benefit from it... No boosted power under hail, no defensive synergies
Really wrong here. The chip from hail that affects almost everything is awesome for getting the chip for Bear to kill and breaking sashes and sturdy. Bear can possibly get a whole 24% of chip with just Subsitute on all the Evio mons, Siv forms, whatever that isnt Lefties. For example:
252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 256-303 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
versus subbing three times + rocks for a total of 24% chip: 56.3% chance to OHKO
or even a 4th sub + rocks for a 100% 1HKO.

Full hail is not viable, no. But Having Abomasnow with Beartic support is totally fine. You have 4 other slots to teambuild for, and Hail makes Bear an overwhelming threat. In comparison, many other B- mons like Raticate, Regi, Ramp, and Butterfree are either outclassed or have limited teambuilding niches that can be hard to pull off. The combo of Bear + Snow is so natural and effective, and lets you get boosted with no turn of set up.

Alright, honestly, I'm just gonna go ahead and say sure. I'll believe everything you say, Beartic is a solid mon in Hail. Sounds good.

So let's take a close look at what we have here. We have a mon that requires a specific set of a better mon to support it (Icy Rock Abomasnow), is mostly anti offense because it's not breaking bulkier balances or stalls because of stuff like Pyukumuku, Avalugg, and Roar mons, etc. (sure, with an SD it can break some, but it's gonna be threatened while attempting to set it up, and waste one of its Hail turns it needs), is forced out by every Choice Scarf user in the metagame. Overall, it sounds like a fairly niche cleaner that requires specific support, on par with the likes of Rain Dance Golduck, Z-Celebrate Glaceon, Ninjask, RP Regice, Huntail, Arbok, even Lycanroc-N (with Sucker Punch).

Every single one of those is in C+, as is Beartic.

Even if we assume that what you're saying is all true, that Beartic is terrifying in Hail, that Abomasnow can afford to run Icy Rock, and that its coverage is good enough, and that Hail gives it nice chip and all, I still really don't think this should rise above C+. C+ does not mean 'unviable', C+ means 'niche and requires specific support'. Want a slow sweeper that can buff its speed with some support?

Use Shell Smash Crustle, which you yourself mentioned. You only need Defog support for that one, and every team has that anyway.

 

[275p]

Ariados Unranked -> C-/C
As the only ZU mon with access to both Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes, Ariados has a niche and thus deserves to be ranked. Its decent 70/70/70 bulk means you can often get off Sticky Web and at least one layers of Tspikes up almost every time. Its attack is also a not too shabby 90, meaning it can have somewhat of an offensive presence with Megahorn and Poison Jab. It has some nice priority options in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, and has access to Stomping Tantrum which allows it to not get stopped dead in its tracks by steel types. Because of this, you could potentially run an SD set on a trick room team or a bulky band (althought I haven't tried it myself and am nomming Ariados mostly because it can set up webs + tspikes).

Well you make some valid points, but I unfortunately must disagree with your nomination. Ariados is just too slow to function as an effective lead. Due to this, it`s weak to taunt users like Floatzel, Lead Monferno and Glalie. As a toxic spikes user, Ariados is outclassed by Mareanie, which has a good defensive typing, the useful ability Regenerator and reliable recovery. As a Sticky web user it is outclassed by Smeargle and Leavanny do to their better speed tier. Even on the offense, it is outclassed by the likes of Crustle and Pinsir, who both outclass it entirely.

So sorry, but I don`t believe that Ariados should rise.

 

[Celever]

Alright I've got some noms, doubt they're too controversial because they're just reacting to meta shifts.

B --> B+
The meta right now has become and is becoming more and more physical-oriented, and these two mons have become stronger as a result of it. They're both still plagued by a lack of recovery so this rise is potentially questionable, but they both form strong cores with WishPass Lickilciky and Komala for balance teams, and in this meta Lickilicky is a staple for balance anyway, and on offense teams the lack of recovery isn't so bothersome as they have to switch in less anyway. While both receive competition in the role of SR setter, they provide enough utility besides to not be restricted into it: Gabite is a premier phaser, and boasting a powerful Ground-Type STAB which is excellent in this tier right now for top-tier threats like Electivire (no Ice Punch), Rapidash, Muk, Golem and Mareanie, as well as chunking frail physical threats like Komala with a neutral hit. Rough Skin is also very useful for wearing down other SR setters such as Kecleon.

On the other hand, Mawile has perfect coverage against everything bar Fire- and Steel-Type Pokémon, priority in Sucker Punch, and only faces competition as a Steel-Type from Eviolite-wielding NFEs which is a big boon considering the prevalence of Knock Off, which it additionally easily tanks due to a resistance the other Steel-Type Pokémon lack, and as a Fairy-Type from the currently middling in efficacy Granbull and the rising star Shiinotic, both of whom it possesses a different role from. Mawile also acts as a good answer to SD Shiftry, though is chunked by Leaf Storm, and has versatility with moves like Taunt offering it as an answer to Pyukumuku, both of whom are large threats in this meta.

I'm not sold on this nomination and I can see it going either way, but I wanted to field the discussion for these mons as I can see them inhabiting B+ quite comfortably.

B+ --> B
Pawniard had an important role previously as the best answer to Silvally-Ghost in the tier. Now Silvally-Ghost has gone, and Silvally-Fighting, -Water and -Dragon have risen to greater prominence in its stead, all of which beat Pawniard consistently. Additionally, other Fighting-Type Pokémon such as Combusken, Monferno and Machoke are greater than ever and seeing more usage, and Rapidash, who it used to be able to OHKO after rocks with Sucker Punch, is now running Will-o-Wisp over Morning Sun increasingly often, outright crippling Pawniard. Shiftry also provides it with immense competition in regards to a Swords Dance Sucker Punch user, though it does possess the niche of reliably beating Shiinotic that Shiftry lacks. The shifting meta hasn't been kind to Pawniard and I think resultantly it deserves a drop to B-tier.

Other nominations I'm in direct support of:
Metang B --> B- (Knock Off is too prevalent and it packs very little punch while lacking utility outside of attacking)
Shiinotic C- --> B (honestly think B- is too low, Spore and Strength Sap are busted and Fairy-Typing is good in this meta)
Machoke B --> A- (bulkier Combusken with more power before boosting, higher power STAB in Close Combat, and just having access to Knock Off lends itself well to the current meta, and has versatility to act as a glue with ResTalk)
Lickilicky A- --> A (a necessity for stall and functions very well as a glue for balance, definitely a premier threat that every team needs a bespoke answer to)
Altaria A --> A-/B+ (don't mind where it ends up as long as it's lower; it's outclassed as a defogger by Silvally who aren't weak to rocks, and as a cleric by Lickilicky which boasts better typing for the current meta which is littered with Rock- and Ice-Type moves. Offers role compression and Natural Cure is a lovely attribute for it to have when answering stallbreakers, which keeps it high, but it's no longer a top tier threat like the other A-ranks)
Komala S --> A+ (still very good, and every team still needs to prepare for it, but every team prepares very well for strong physical attackers now anyway, simply isn't a league above Pokémon like Shiftry and Electivire)
Swanna A+ --> S (IS a league above Pokémon like Shiftry and Electivire. Has tangible versatility between defog, scarf, Z-Rain Dance, Z-Mirror Move and probably other sets I'm not thinking of. Boasts strong not-Sucker Punch priority which in this meta is rare enough to be notable. Differentiation between its sets and therefore what can handle it, with Roost/Ice Beam and capacity to nuke with either Waterium Z or Flyinium Z. Teams need to be directly prepared for a number of different sets otherwise they will succumb to it, and that's S-rank)

 

[PokeBilly1011]

Golem A+ --> S
Golem is a great stealth rocker and is good at defense. Golem is great for a Weakness Policy set with Stealth Rock, Earthquake, Stone Edge/Rock Blast, Sucker punch. Golem is also a good counter for bronzor when bronzor tries to set up rocks. Golem also has a great Custap Berry set with Stealth Rock, Earthquake, Stone Edge/Rock Blast, and Explosion. Explosion comes in handy for hyper offense mons when they try to sweep you, you can kill them with Explosion so you can get rid of big threats easier.Golem is also a great mon to get rid of Choice Scarf Electivire and other Choice Scarfers. Alot of people like using Golem as well for a Rock Polish set but the most popular set that people use it th weaknesses policy set. Golem does have a couple of weaknesses unfortunately like water and grass types, Swanna, Flotazel, Leafeon etc. But it is still really good for the other things i said like Weakness Policy.

Electivire A+ --> S
Electivire is by far one of the best Choice Scarfers to use if not the best one. Alot of people use Electivire in many ways. One way is the Choice Scarf set which is the most popular set which is Volt Switch, Wild Charge, Ice Punch, Earthquake. Electivire is good for countering Swanna because any electric type move kills it and alot of people use that for more speed for Electivire.Another set people use is the Mixed Attacker set which is good for dealing alot of damage. Alot of people use this set to deal with huge threats and get more damage off then get more speed.Electivire has some weaknesses, like Golem and Crustle because Golem and Crustle are very bulky mons and Golem having weaknesses policy, it doubles attack and special attack.

Bouffalant A- --> A
Bouffalant is great for taking special attacks because it has good special defensive stat and solid attacker to serve as a good check for special attackers.Bouffalant also runs Sap Sipper and people use that ability to counter grass type moves and gain 1.5x attack. Silvally-Ghost was a big threat to Bouffalant but now since its not in ZU anymore, Bouffalant will be more used for counters and sweeps. Unfortunately its really weak to Gourgeist-Super because its a really bulky mon also normal type moves doesnt effect it and it resist Earthquake but it is a really nice sweeper if you know how to use him.


Here are some other ones I agree on
Rises
Shiinotic C --> B-/B
Swanna A+ --> S
Shiftry A+ --> S
Machoke B- --> B/B+
Silvally-Dragon A- --> A/A+
Marowak B- --> B/B+
Silvally-Ground B- --> B/B+

Drops
Silvally Water A --> B+
Regigigas B- --> C/C-
Sivally-Poison B+ --> C+/C
Gumshoos C --> D

sorry if this is really bad this is my first ranking post :/.

 

[AlolanSableye21]

Golem A+ --> S

Electivire A+ --> S


Here are some other ones I agree on
Rises
Swanna A+ --> S
Shiftry A+ --> S

I think you're missing the definition of a mon being S Tier here... With S Tier, a mon is so powerful and so diverse that it can (and should) be used on every team there is, in one form or another. If you're saying we should have five S-Tier mons, then EVERY team has to run all five of those mons or they auto lose to someone who is - and this just isn't the case. Look at VGC '15 or Monotype for example - in VGC '15, CHALK (Cresselia, Heatran, Amoonguss, Landorus Therian, Mega Kangaskhan) was used by more than half of the top 8 & top 16 in EVERY Masters division and seven of the Top 8 at worlds ran CHALK. This is what five S Tier mons looks like - and then the A/A+ mons (such as Aegislash, Sylveon, Thundurus Incarnate) are judged solely on how many of these mons they can deal with and how well they synergize with CHALK. Monotype is a little harder to make the comparison as each type has separate tiering for its mons (for example, Gastrodon is A in Ground but C in Water). However, in weaker monotypes, you still see many of these mons being made S Tier for typings - such as Alolan Muk, Mega Venusaur & Toxapex ALL being S Tier in Poison. You HAVE to run these mons to cover Psychic/Ground moves and to deal with set up or you automatically lose.

This "pick these mons or lose" isn't the case for so many of the mons you've brought up. These mons are all definitely powerful and should be prepared for, but they all have weaknesses that they can't work around or are only usable by specific playstyles - Golem is a damn powerful Rocker, but the lack of recovery and horrible weakness to common types makes other rockers preferable in slower paced Balance/Semistall/Stall teams. Electivire faces tough competition as a scarfer from the likes of Rapidash and Pinsir. Swanna is easily checked by specially defensive mons and worn down, or just revenge killed easily (Scarf Volt Switch/Wild Charge/Rock Slide/etc). They are countered in a variety of ways and can't deal with these counters.

Compare this to Komala. It's able to get into the fight easily, due to being immune to status, it can hit like a truck, it can support the team, it can pivot, it can patch up its physical defense with Bulk Up sets, etc... The only thing it really CAN'T do is run a special set. Every team loves the slower U Turn, Banded fucks with Balance/Stall teams due to their inability to burn you and your amazing coverage, it Team Supports damn well with Wish/U-Turn/Spin/Knock/etc... Komala finds a way to do any job and do it better than most - I've even seen Scarf sets run through unboosted fragile attackers due to powerful STAB and speed that you need Dugtrio to get past. All this meaning you need to try figure out what they're running before you can properly counterplay, and if you don't play correctly with the zero information you have, you can lose mons because you didn't guess what set they're running. Komala brings something to ANY team it's added to, regardless of the other five mons or what jobs they can do.

 

[sketchy ecchi]

Hey this is my first post here and I’ll keep it short; I just wanted to shed some light on two mons I think are a bit overlooked. Feel free to disagree.

Frogadier C --> C+/B-

Despite it’s middling stats, I think frog has enough going for it to carve out a niche on offense as a scarfer. It gets great coverage between hydro pump/ice beam and dark pulse, sits at a speed tier above Electivire, Mr. Mime, and Chatot, and can u-turn out on forced switches, which, with a protean boost, can do decent damage and wear down its checks. I think the ability for a scarfer to u-turn is seriously nice; in many match-ups Electivire is reluctant to click its stab moves and let something like an opposing Electivire or Golem to come in. Furthermore, it is the only viable t-spiker user aside from Mareanie. It’s also great frogadier isn’t weak to rocks like Chatot Swanna, and Pinsir are. The biggest setback Frogadier faces is its lackluster defense stats which make it difficult for it to switch in. While Electivire and Mr. Mime can check Swanna and Combusken respectively, in a pinch, Frogadier struggles to take even resisted attacks. Without a boosting item, frog is pretty weak, although it can 2hko most offensive mons like electivire and swanna. Frogadier can also run specs or life orb to get a 2hko on Mareanie and Silvally-Water, it also has some other interesting options like taunt, low kick, and gunk shot, but I think scarf is its most usable set.

Sets

Frogadier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Toxic Spikes
- U-turn

Frogadier @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- U-turn

Me rn

Zweilous UR --> C/C+

Zweilous is a really cool mon that has been discussed here some and was dropped from the VR in January, but I feel this is totally undeserved. Zweilous shines on bulky teams where it can take advantage of popular defensive mons like Bronzor, Mareanie, non-stab Altaria, Lickilicky and Pyukumuku. With a choice band it can 2hko the entire tier with the exception of defensive Mawile, and it has a decent speed tier too, putting it above offensive Golem and other max 45’s. It’s not especially frail like other nfe mons and thanks to its typing it can avoid a 2hko from shiftry with no hp investment. Like all band users it has to predict a little bit and can be scouted by protect, its strongest stab outrage makes it especially vulnerable to being revenge killed and most notably hustle reduces its accuracy, making it very difficult to hit head smashes (64% accuracy). Zwei can also run Dragonium Z or Rockium Z to actually hit its move and not get outrage-locked, or go defensive with eviolite dragon tail crunch rest talk to handle mixed Shiftry, but this is a more niche option. To compare Zwei with some other choice band users in the tier, Bouffalant and Komala are walled by Gourgeist, while Muk and Granbull often require precise prediction to beat teams with Bronzor or Mareanie. Band Golem is seriously hard to switch into unless you have Gourgeist-Large to outspeed it, and it should be said all of these breakers have more defensive utility than Zweilous.

Sets

Zweilous @ Choice Band / Dragonium Z / Rockium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Crunch
- Head Smash
- Superpower

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Golem: 220-261 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Superpower vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Golem: 294-348 (80.7 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Water: 378-445 (96.1 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 228-268 (61.1 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Gourgeist-Super: 153-180 (41 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 306-360 (82 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Avalugg: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Avalugg: 404-478 (102.5 - 121.3%) -- possible KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 217-256 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 161-190 (69.6 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 174-205 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 251-296 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[5gen]

Hey all, it's time for the VR update. Apologies for not giving out a date for when the slate was locked. All posts from this post onward will be included in the next VR slate.

As always, check out council votes here.

Rises

A- to A

A- to A

B+ to A-

B to B+

B- to B

B- to B

C+ to B-

C to B-

C- to C+

Drops

S to A+

A to A-

A to A-

A- to B+

B+ to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

C to UU

C to C-

UU to UR

UU to UR

Most of the rises and drops received discussion in the thread or in the voting sheet so I won't go too deep into them. A Komala drop is not necessarily surprising with the metagame trending towards offense and bulky offense, both of which pressure Bulk Up Knock Off Komala and force it to use different sets such as Choice Band and Assault Vest. On the other hand, voting was fairly tight with Swanna and Shiftry to S. Although they did not rise, Swanna and Shiftry can definitely use more discussion and attention from council members as the metagame continues to develop.

Discussion points:

• S rank. Which Pokemon (can be more than one) deserves it and why? Keep in mind arguments made for or against in the thread and in the voting sheet
• The current nominations that did not get voted on
• C+ rank is large so we should look into which Pokemon deserve to drop, rise, or stay

Edit: Hakamo-o was nommed by me in the sheet and received no thread discussion so I'll explain it briefly. Although Swanna and Abomasnow are top mons at the moment, Hakamo-o finds itself in a good spot because similarly to Machoke, it is able to check Shiftry and Golem as well as Rapidash and Combusken. Set up sets are solid because of the amount of things Hakamo-o can check and I've also been having success with Taunt Toxic to more easily play around Bronzor, Gourgeist-XL, Pyukumuku, and physically defensive Golem.

 

[Moron5]

Gabite - Definitely not rise and probably drop - I don't see any valid reasoning of recent posts on why this mon should stay B or even rise to B+ all of the sudden that cannot be directly applied by Golem. The threats it can "check" Evire, Muk, etc. are better checked by Golem and can punish both harder with an actually threatening attack. The fact that it can "phase" is irrelevant either because Golem also learns roar except it can't even be bothered to use it most of the time because its other options are just so great. Gabite invites in for free any boltbeam Silvally, Swanna, rotom-fan, altaria etc. to remove its rocks unlike Golem which can threaten to at least 2HKO all of them. Gabite pretty much is Golem if you removed passive recovery/sturdy item abuse, made it knock weak, made it even weaker to ice attacks, and stripped of its greatest quality: its offensive pressure. It doesn't even compensate for it defensively as even though Golem takes more from Grass, Fighting, Water, many of those types have a coverage move to screw Gabite the same way. Imo Gabite is a bottom 5 rocker (unironically worse than Cradily which can at least check Swanna/Golem) and the way I see it is most teams that just slap it on I see with it can make do with a better rocker.

Gourgeist-Super - Drop to A maybe A- (I've always thought this was vastly overrated) - For something that's ranked among the greats of the metagame you'd expect it to put a hamper and much consideration in teambuilding but the reality is that it lets literally everything in for free and can barely check some of its checks. Swanna is so free into this, so is Abomasnow, so is BU Komala, so is Specs Floatzel if not seed bomb, so is any Boltbeam Silvally as well as Dragonvally, so is Altaria, so is Rotom-fan, so is... list goes on and that's just some of the A ranks. The things it is supposed to check often carry toxic or can pivot like Komala, Silvally-Fighting, Bouff etc. Not to mention hazards like Bronzor and Mareanie which T-spikes makes it lose essentially half its value. Gourgeist is not as splashable as the rest of the A+ ranks, its only really for balance to stall it fits in okay but even then there are better options.

 

[kay]

Gourgeist-Super - Drop to A maybe A- (I've always thought this was vastly overrated) - For something that's ranked among the greats of the metagame you'd expect it to put a hamper and much consideration in teambuilding but the reality is that it lets literally everything in for free and can barely check some of its checks. Swanna is so free into this, so is Abomasnow, so is BU Komala, so is Specs Floatzel if not seed bomb, so is any Boltbeam Silvally as well as Dragonvally, so is Altaria, so is Rotom-fan, so is... list goes on and that's just some of the A ranks.

With the rising of Tangela, Gourgiest has found itself as the only catch all balance answer to a lot of physical mons. Its quite literally the poster child of what a wall is in ZU and I see no reason to actually drop it. Sure, if you look at all the special walls the can hit it super effectively that it has no business being in on in the first place it might look bad, but that comes from user error rather then the mon having issues. Special Swanna and Abomasnow variants are taking 30% from foul play + ideally rocks damage so I wouldn't exactly call them free switch ins (much less if they're running their common physical variants or mixed sets), BU komala is still taking 35% on average from foul play so its going to be forced to Wish, and so on. And even on these mons they don't get pressured by Foul Play, you still have the issue of burns or leech seed to chip away slowly at mons/ offering utility.
Just pointing out specially offensive mons that break it does nothing to help your case of why it should drop because no one in their right mind is leaving Gourg in vs stuff like Vally dragon. You have to actually point out why what it does no longer works well which leads me to my next point.

The things it is supposed to check often carry toxic or can pivot like Komala, Silvally-Fighting, Bouff etc. Not to mention hazards like Bronzor and Mareanie which T-spikes makes it lose essentially half its value. Gourgeist is not as splashable as the rest of the A+ ranks, its only really for balance to stall it fits in okay but even then there are better options.

So while yes, some of these can in fact can u-turn or parting shot on a Gourgeist, thats all they really can do. CB variants of Komala are dead stopped by this mon and so is SD vally fighting or non toxic variants. The MOST they can do is predict the switch and go for a pivot move which really isn't avoidable for any wall so I don't really see why this specifically is an issue unless you want to blanket drop every physical wall for having the same issue. And whats more is since the Tangela rise, we've been seeing a lot less sub toxic Bouf as it lost one of its main targets for the set, leaving just Gourg and Avalugg. Gourgeist is just as splashable as it once was, and for balance its still a godsend glue mon.
And I don't exactly know what you mean by the whole 'it only fits on balance and stall (which is true) but there are better options' because after we lost Tangela we really don't have another option that role compresses like it does. Its literally the only mon left in the tier that covers what it does aside from MAYBE avalugg.

So yeah I'm against dropping Gourgiest. The mon is still fine and the meta still fits it just as well as it always has, and with us losing Tangela it really doesn't fight for the slot with anything anymore.

 

[Moron5]

I think it’s fair game that I worded my argument against Gourgeist-S in a worse way than I would’ve liked and I respect your points in that it is unique enough to what it brings tot he table. However I still believe A+ is overselling it because I feel it somewhat implies that it is on the level of influence at which Komala, Shiftry, Swanna, Golem, and Electivire are at. Evire has a strong rule over speed control on a team, Golem is the best rocker for not only the most playstyles but arguably the best ones as well, and the last 3 are versatile and powerful enough to a point that only checks exist for them.

I don’t see Gourgeist-S which often isn’t played on what many deem as the best style (somewhat similar to the pyuku argument earlier) or has as much capability to soften its exploitability which all of the five (I suppose Pinsir as well but ehhh) mentioned are ranked A+ for. With the slow rise of Shiinotic and while a bit different, Dusclops, both fill similar roles in a run of the mill balance team that get around some of the problems Gourgeist face and give their own share of upsides. Is that to say that they’re better? Not at all, but there is competition in a role that Gourgeist does for balance that isn’t the best playstyle and often times gives momentum to the best ones. More fitting and comparable to Mareanie in its impact in teambuilding and a “light monopoly” on its niche from my experience.

 

[SBPC]

The VR currently has a lot of mons out of place in my opinion, so i want to present a list of nominations that i believe better represent the current metagame, as well as tackle some of the current discussion points.

Abomasnow: A to A+
Abomasnow is incredibly prevalent right now, being one of the best wallbreakers in the tier on both the physical and special sides with its stellar choice specs and swords dance sets, the former arguably being one of the best sets in the current meta as a whole. Guaranteed hit blizzards deal absolutely ridiculous damage to anything not resisting it, giga drain creates a valid way to slap the slow rocks of the tier as well as the bulky waters for a decent bit of healing with good damage output. Its coverage moves in focus blast and shadow ball allow it to scare off some of the checks wishing to come in on stabs like Bronzor, Lickilicki, and specially defensive Komala.
This thing has seen an immense amount of seasonal play as well, further cementing it's presence within the tier.

Vigoroth: A- to B+
While still being viable in its own right, Vigoroth struggles in this meta due to the absurd amount of breaking power, the omnipresent knock off, and its own self being terribly hard to build around. This isn't saying Vigoroth is bad or useless, it's just fallen off a lot this meta.

Granbull: B to A-/A
This nomination is a rather big rise, but Granbull is more than deserving of it. It's incredible choice band set allows it to punch literal holes in a massive portion of the tier, and given the user can predict well enough, outright eliminate an immense portion of the tier with the correct coverage move. It struggles getting in sometimes, but with it's outstanding ability in intimidate, it can alleviate this slightly by coming in on physical attackers.

Monferno: B to B+
Monferno, like Combusken, has a stellar typing in Fire/Fighting, but by using an eviolite set, speed creeped to outrun adamant shiftry, it has a valid niche as a stealth rock user with reliable healing in Slack Off, using U-Turn and a STAB attack to help generate offensive pressure for it's team. It possesses a unique quality in being able to hard counter the deadly Abomasnow as well, which can justify using it over Golem or even with him.

Monferno Set

I'm Monky (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz/Close Combat

Monferno Vs Abomasnow

252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 131-155 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 89-105 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage

Of course, after eating a STAB attack, it can use slack off to push the damage off of it.

And now, moving on to C+, a very large rank.

Drop to C, with a short reasoning

Arbok: Outclassed by Muk
Bibarel: Not rewarding enough after setup, folds easily on special side
Huntail: See bibarel, folds on both defenses.

 

[BP]

B+---------> A-

Sorry if sound like a broken record but I this needs to be said. With Silvally-Ghost no longer in the metagame, I really think that Machoke deserves A-. The council voted last VR shifts and both Melon and X voted for Machoke to be A- if I remember correctly (too lazy to look). I personally have a lot of success running this Pokemon and its fairly easy to use. I may be a little biased when it comes to Machoke due to my constant success with it but I really feel it deserves A-

sets

Physical Wall (Machoke) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Alternatively, you can run 220 defense Impish and pour the extra 36 EVs into either Attack Speed or Special Defense.

Specially Defensive (Machoke) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The same goes for this set. 220 SpD Careful can be run and you can pour the other 36 Evs in Attack, Speed, or Defense.

When I see Machoke in team preview I immediately get stressed out because of how useful it can be when paired with Balance, Offense, and Bulky Offense. When Machoke is allowed a free in via a slow pivot or just a prediction its an issue to deal with. With access to Knock Off, Machoke is able to remove the item from potential switch-ins. In addition, the threat of Dynamic Punch coupled with 25% Confusion is incredibly worrisome. Machoke is essentially perfect right now in the meta as its Physically Defensive set Counters Electivire and its Specially Defensive set counters Special Combusken in addition to Abomasnow bar Choice Specs. Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, Dusclops, and Gourgiest-XL don't really like switching in due to the threat of Knock Off which also threatens the various amounts of Eviolite users in the meta. Machoke is just so flexible and versatile defensively that it's pretty hard to accurately check without scouting the set. There are only a handful of Pokemon that truly take advantage of Machoke. These Pokemon are Shiinotic, Muk, and Swanna (as long as it doesn't switch in). Beheeyem is also an issue and it can only switch in if its Colbur Berry.

C+ Clean Up

C+
Arbok ---> Stay
Armaldo ----> Stay
Basculin -----> Rise
Beartic -----> Stay
Bibarel -----> Drop
Cacturne -----> Stay
Ditto -------> Rise
Drifblim -------> Drop
Electrode ------> Stay
Furfrou ------> Stay
Glaceon ------> Stay
Golduck ------> Rise Stay
Huntail -----> Rise
Lapras -----> Drop
Leavanny -----> Drop
Lycanroc-Midnight ----> Stay
Masquerain -----> stay
Meowstic-M -----> Stay
Ninjask ----> Rise
Quilladin ----> stay
Regice -----> drop
Regigigas ------> Stay
Relicanth -----> stay
Shuckle ------> drop
Silvally-Electric ------> drop
Silvally-Grass ------> stay
Silvally-Poison ------> drop
Smeargle ------> stay
Vibrava ------> Drop to C-
Volbeat ------> stay

 

[Tsareentje]

Monferno B --> B+
Hello, I want to share my experience of Monferno, because I really feel Monferno should rise to B+. SBPC also shared his opinion of Monferno, but I am going to give a bit more detailed post, however with a different set that also works excellently.

Prio getting into details, here is the set:

Importable

Monferno @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz / Close Combat
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

*Note that EVs: 252 HP / 100 SpD / 156 Spe can be used if the team is Abomasnow weak.

I shared a defensive Monferno set, because that is the most effective set in my experience. Defensive Monferno works the best, thanks to it useful typing for checking common ZU threats, especially Shiftry and Abomasnow. Monferno resists both STABs which let it switch in pretty comfortably (watch out for Knock Off). Unlike other checks, like Mawile for Shiftry and Bronzor for Abomasnow, Monferno has reliable recovery in Slack Off. Monferno is becoming better, because it can check Abomasnow and Shiftry quite well.

Monferno also excels as a decently fast Stealth Rock setter. Stealth Rock is set up easily against some Pokemon, like Gourgeist-XL and Bronzor. Monferno also offers a solid speed letting it outspeed other common SR setters, for example Golem and Crustle. Now I hear you think that Monferno has an awful matchup against common defoggers, like Silvallys, Altaria and Swanna. That is true, however Monferno still offers the team pivotting by letting the team getting grip on the match. Again, its movepool with reliable recovery gives Monferno an advantage over other SR setters.

Monferno’s strongest qualitiy is having it all in one. It has an useful typing, it checks Abomasnow/Shiftry relatively well, sets up SR, keeps itself healthy with Slack Off, pivot with U-Turn and it has a decent speed and bulk with Eviolite. These qualities all in one make Monferno a unique and a valuable member of your team. Monferno can use its great variety for different roles in a game.

Here are the most important calcs, which shows the value of Monferno

Important calcs

With Eviolite:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 131-155 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Monferno: 90-107 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 94-110 (28.3 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Without Eviolite
252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Monferno: 196-231 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Monferno: 97-114 (29.2 - 34.3%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Monferno: 140-166 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

So, Monferno is able to switch into Abomasnow and Shiftry but you need to be careful about your health and Eviolite.

In short, Monferno is getting better, because it can check Abomasnow and Shiftry, Monferno has a great variety of moves and it has an useful typing. With all those reasons mentioned Monferno definitely deserves B+

Thanks for reading!

 

[JdRDMS]

Solrock: C- -> UU/UR
I don't see the benefit to using this over Bronzor. There might be one that I don't see, but someone is gonna have to tell me. Bronzor has better special bulk thanks to Eviolite, it's physical bulk is only slightly worse (barely), and as far as I'm aware, Psywave is doing more than Rock Slide for the damage it does do. Rest is better recovery than Morning Sun, and Bronzor is bulky enough to make up for the sleep turns from my experience. Will-O-Wisp is nice I guess, but that's about it, and even that's not a huge benefit. Just drop it, I don't think it's worthy of C-.

Golem-Alola: B -> Lower
I've tried this thing a few times, and I was just unimpressed overall. It's supposed to be a Steel-trapper. All we really have are Bronzor, Metang, Mawile, and Pawniard. Metang OHKOs it with Earthquake, while Golem-Alola can't OHKO back. Bronzor can Toxic it, wearing it down quickly, and has Rest. Mawile can Toxic it too, though Alolem does outspeed the defensive set (which is the most common set) and can OHKO it with Earthquake. Pawniard, when set up, does a ton of damage with Knock Off, and even when not set up, Alolem loses it's Choice Band, and it can't guarantee an OHKO with Earthquake without it. In addition, it's slow and not very bulky, making incredibly easy to revenge kill once it beats a Steel-type. I could be looking at this completely wrong (I probably am tbh), but Alolem just wasn't as good as I would've expected or hoped when I tired it.

Slaking: C- -> UR
Why is this ranked again? I don't think I need to explain this. Sure it's strong, but Truant makes this completely unviable. Use literally any other Normal-type, even Furret. FURRET!!

Other noms that I agree with:

Monferno: B -> B+

Gabite: B -> B-

Huntail: C+ -> C

 

[PokeBilly1011]

Regigigas C+ --> C/C-
First off i gotta say great job by the councils for the voting great job guys :). Now even tho Regigigas just got a drop i still think it doesnt fit C+.
Regigigas has a high attack defense and hp its pretty slow to most common mons used. Now people usaully use it has either as a hard hitter or stallbreaker. But i honsetly think Komala replaces that. Komala has 541 when its a Choice Band set for attack which is much higher then Regigigases. People usually use Regigigas for stallbreaker teams but most pokemon can kill this like fighting types. One of the mons is Combusken. Combusken is a hard hitting fast mon which can kill Regiggigas in one hit if it uses its z move (85.3 - 100.9%) according to calc . Regigigas also gets its Slow Start which makes it less use because most people use speedy hyper offensive mons anyway.

Wishiwashi B- --> C+/C
Alright no offense to Wishiwashi users but i dont think this should be B-. Wishiwashi is only good for a Trick Room team. People usaully dont use Wishiwashi at all. Its very slow considering its a water type if you don't use it for a Trick Room team. Now if you like using Trick Room teams and your reading this please explain why this should not be lower then B-. Now im not hating on Wishiwashi at all its just only good for slow team hints Trick Room teams. Also Swanna is such a used ZU mon that it pretty much replaces it same with floatzel to. Most people use Hyper Offense teams and stall teams which pretty much beats Wishiwashi and to me it really doesnt fit at all to any other team but again a Trick Room teams. Wishwashi is also used on ladder sometimes and people that are really good could make good teams with Wishwashi but for me it just doesnt fit B-. Even tho its Special Attack is pretty decent, most water type mons have a better Special Attack set like Swanna.

Now if your curious on why i did these 2 mons is because Wishiwashi was a shocker when i saw it be B- and Regigigas just got a drop but to me like i said it was still a little high for me. I personally think C is best for it. Even tho there isnt that much of a difference i think it would look better if it was a little bit lower.

Here are some other ones I agree on

Rises
Abomasnow A --> A+
Monferno B --> B+

Drops
Solrock C --> UU/UR

I hope you guys enjoy reading this I tried my best thank you :)