Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

[Apagogie]

I'm going to be very careful about the following noms because i'm conscious Stoutland influenced a lot the meta of this last month. However, I think they are all well deserved and dont depend too much about what our favorite dog made in ZU.

Lurantis A- -> A/A+
As i said in my precedent post, Lurantis became a staple mon in the ZU. Its usage and also the usage of few of its checks exploed in SSNL due to the pressure it exerces in the meta. Neither the presence nor the absence of Stoutland influence its position, Lurantis becomes stronger at every shifts (notably the last one with probopass, granbull, sandslash). Lurantis is simply a monster able to take advantage of bulkier builds without struggling against offense. It brings at the same time defog utility, offensive presence, somewhat golem check according to its spread, aromatherapy support sometimes. I think it's the only pokémon in the ZU meta actually which is able to get rid of its own counter without changing its set, even stuff like Muk/Roselia can be beaten in the right situation. Revenge kill Lurantis is a difficult duty due to its high bulk (and even the bad accuracy of Blizzard/Hurricane lol). Its influence in the meta can easily be compared now to A+ mons such as Monferno or Pinsir. Lurantis has to rise, A fits but A+ reflects better the place it has right now in ZU.

Silvally-Dark B+ -> B/B-
Silvally-Dark has always been a Pokémon which depends a lot about its job of pursuit trapper to work. Already when Kecleon dropped, Silvally-Dark suffered, not really directly due to Kecleon (even if be weak to drain punch is really annoying for a vally) but because more dark weak mons started to run more often the colbur berry such as beheyeem or gourgeist. The usage of grumpig progressively falled as well during the last months and anyway Vally-Dark didnt trap it well with the combinaison of substitute/focus blast. Now we have Probopass back which is an other bronzor trapper with Pawniard, which brings a lot utility in teams. Probopass is a SR setter, a frosttom switch in and also a trapper. You wont play it in the same team than Silvally-Dark. That's why, with all the meta trends it struggles against actually, i think a drop is justified. It didnt have the same utility than other vally forms such as Vally-Fighting or Vally-Poison which are both effective to check commonly multiple threats or in bringing extra utility. If i remember correctly, Silvally-Dark was anyway lower before Probopass left, it will just find back its previous place.

Silvally-Poison B -> B+
At the contrary, Silvally-Poison appreciates the recent meta trends. It's not only one of the best Kecleon switch-in, it's not affected by the toxic spikes which is valuable at the moment for a defogger and it even removes them in coming on the field. The poison typing allows Silvally-Poison to be somewhat a switch-in to Lurantis even if it struggles against aromatherapy variants. It's probably the vally which brings the most important utility to a team actually with Silvally-Fighting, a rise is deserved.

Silvally-Grass B -> C+/C
It doesnt do anything much in the meta actually because Lurantis outclasses it. Silvally-Fighting, Water, Dragon, Poison, Dark and even Ground have more reasons to be played instead of Silvally-Grass. Maybe its coverage was a good argument to let it ranked high in the past but actually it doesnt mean anything with Lurantis switchings almost mandatory in every team. It's also totally walled by Leftovers Probopass now. Silvally-Grass is a relic of the Lycanroc meta where grass types were very powerful and Lurantis not played. Now, it's a bad Vally version which isn't really viable anymore. Lets drop it.

By the way, as I said in my precedent post, TR setters (aka Carbink/Dusknoir) should definitely drop, Ampharos too and give a new rank to Golem-Alola/Torkoal according to the return of Probopass/Sandslash.

 

[Mintly]

Doing some noms today, enjoy some stuff!

- a bit of a gimmick set, but Z-Hypnosis Belly Drum leaves no asses un-kicked. UR -> C+/C/C-/UU

- Magic Bounce is better than ever. With Mareanie and Golem getting better, Bouncing Hazards back is still great. It still hits pretty good with either Night Shade or Psychic. C -> Higher

 

[Aaronboyer]

Doing some noms today, enjoy some stuff!

- a bit of a gimmick set, but Z-Hypnosis Belly Drum leaves no asses un-kicked. UR -> C+/C/C-/UU

- Magic Bounce is better than ever. With Mareanie and Golem getting better, Bouncing Hazards back is still great. It still hits pretty good with either Night Shade or Psychic. C -> Higher

- A good setup sweeper with access to the deadly combination of Hone Claws + Hustle, with coverage that allows it to punish steels and pressure psychics. would recommend. UR -> C/C-/UU

- Extremely defensive and uses its typing to be more defensive. It's getting better with these new drops by being able to take water attacks like no business. also has a nice grass immunity and access to Acid Armor to solidify it's defenses even more. we need more defensive dragons. C+ -> B-/B

I disagree with all but Natu. In Game 2 of my SSNL series vs Megazard I brought Z-Hypnosis BD Hypno and missed Hypnosis all 3 times I tried using it. It's unreliable and a poor user of the Z-Crystal. Also Pyukumuku says hello. Nidorino baffles me as we have much better offensive Poison-types such as AoA Muk and Arbok, both of which also have priority moves that are super effective against Psychics. "We need more defensive Dragons." Oh what have we here? Is that an Altaria which has access to reliable recovery and Natural Cure?! Oh, and Ninetales is no longer in the tier. Fantastic, now I can drop Sliggoo for something else. I'm nomming from C+ --> C-.

 

[Apagogie]

Here we go again

Floatzel
Amazing mon which doesnt have a single counter according to its set. I have personnally enjoyed a good anti-lead physical taunt which is effective against all archetypes notably stall in pressuring Pyuku/altaria/probopass/mareanie/gabite, etc etc . That's just an example of course because it can run Z-Focus punch, Choice Specs Switcheroo with HP Electric/Grass, Bulk Up sets, in Rain, why not Z-Dig against Mareanie, etc etc. It's probably our best drop and one of the best Pokémon in ZU right now (if not the best ?)

Pyukumuku
It isn't only effective in stall, many balanced can run Pyukumuku instead of Mareanie. Even if it's passive, Pyuku can get rid of almost all set up sweepers such as NP Mime, Z-Dig Ninjask, Bibarel, Pawniard with Soak/Counter, even Taunt Vigoroth with Z-Toxic. I have nothing much to add except it's a solid mon which makes stall busted. The meta could be centralized around its use in the future (it starts already to be). Lets see how it evolves (i wont be so surprised if its presence becomes questionable a day)

Swanna
I think it's a good mon but unfortunately it isn't in the right offensive meta where it could shine. Offenses dont look to be as strong as precedently, Swanna suffers due to the that. However, it stays a nice defoger able to bring a switch-in to monferno in offense and pressures the opposite team with and unresisted flying/water stab (bar chinchou) in being faster than base 95 speed (Silvally, Electivire,...)

Altaria
Present since two days and I hate it already. It's the definition of support, bulk and passivity. Its typing is powerful defensively, it becomes a switch-in to some fire mons which were difficult to tank (Rapidash, Monferno, Combusken,...). A lot of people spam it in their new team and they are right, Altaria is a very good mon. It's even more hateful in stall where it's well supported by its teammates. Some offensives set could be played in the next weeks but i dont think it will be as good as the defensive one.

Komola
I maybe a bit underestimated it because it had the reputation to be very bad in PU. However, ZU is a different metagame and Komola is far more effective here, especially the choice band set thanks to its huge movepool, learning important moves such as U-turn, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Earthquake. It's strong against stall which has only Avalugg/Gourgeist-Super in switch-in but that doesnt matter much, it is able to pivot on their face. We dont have a lot of good pivot abusers beside vally so its presence is enjoyable. Comatose is also an awesome ability where toxic is for the moment everywhere, it's its best strength. However, Komola is a bit overhyped in my opinion, if it's very strong again bulky builds without Gourgeist-Super and Gabite to a lesser extent, but it struggles a lot against more offensive builds due to its bulk in paper. It's pretty similar to Toucannon from this point of view, good movepool, high strength, but is effective only against passive mons. Good mon globally, a great addition to ZU.

Gourgeist-Super
Not a lot of things to add here, it's just a better Gourgeist-Large. Its higher bulk is noticeable but it wont change the face of the meta.

----
But not only the new mons make the meta different, we dont have S rank anymore. It's a new metagame we have to discover. Time to talk about the mons I tested or saw this last days.

Old mons :

Electivire
Electivire is fantastic without I can point the reason why it is so good right now. Maybe the departure of frosttom makes it able to pressure effectively the meta or maybe it's just the drops which makes it better. Anyway, it's very strong now due to its ability to hit SE sometimes the whole opposite team. It isn't something specially new but oh, not in that way. Its strength is insane now, you cannot predict if you face a special, a physical or a mixed set, if you're facing a scarf, a z-move or an expert belt. Switch-ins are no-existent or almost. It looks like one of the best ZU mon actually.

Raichu
An other one which looks to appreciate the meta changes. If one week ago, it was already pretty correct, it's far better now even with the floatzel presence. Indeed, Electric + Fighting + Ice is a brainless coverage which hit very hard fat balance team with gabite, altaria, licki, gourgeist. But that's not the only point, it's not only able to pressure balance teams, it's also able to set up and break Pyuku without any other stall mon can tank it better. Raichu is an amazing set up sweeper which breaks stall and fat teams thanks to its coverage and its high speed. The meta tends to be enjoy to its presence, i look forward to seeing how it evolves in the future.

All these mons aren't as good as they were before. Lets start by Monferno, Monferno was a difficult mon to counter defensively except if you run Mareanie before the shifts. Now, it gains a lot of mon able to decently counter/check it, the first one is Pyukumuku against whom it cannot do anything. Swanna handles perfectly its dual stab and it's a solid switch-in to monferno in offense/bulky offense which was the playstyle which generally couldn't handle monferno very well. Then, there is altaria which with a physical defensive spread and haze counters it perfectly. Floatzel can be a soft check too. The period where the only true viable answer to Monferno was Mareanie is behind us, our monkey struggles now a lot to pass few different very bulky mons.

If you think to Monferno, you think directly to Mareanie. It was a staple mon previously and centralized the meta around its use, also around toxic spikes stacking. But with Ferno becoming just correct, it loses the mandatory place it had in balance. More than that, it has now competition with Pyukumuku which stops a lot of different threats that Mareanie cannot such as M.Mime, Bibarel, Beheyeem, Crustle or Pawniard. We could think toxic spikes would be more difficult to get rid now Frosttom is gone to pressure Mareanie but that's not true. We get Altaria now which is completely immunized to toxic spikes thanks to its flying typing and which is able to defog and even heal bell if needed. Swanna does exactly the same thing for more offensive builds. Mareanie isn't anymore the staple mon in balance it was previously, it stays good but it isn't mandatory anymore.

Ironically, it's when the meta became full of defoggers than Oricorio-Baille became the less useful. It was an amazing check to Monferno and Lurantis in offense/BO. Lurantis left, Monferno struggles, Offense isn't as strong as before. It hurts a lot Oricorio. That's not the only thing too, its good coverage fire/flying looks suddenly outdated. Frosttom isn't there to be threaten it by a strong fire Revelation Dance, exactly the same for steel types which are more pressured by arena trap of Probopass now. Probopass was a decent answer to oricorio talking about that who could SR in front of it without HP ground coverage which was rare due to the predominance of golem. Also, Scarf and Specs Oricorio which were arguably the best sets and the most useful one realize now that Lickilicky is coming back. Oh, and see Floatzel in lot of teams is sad too. The electric form of Oricorio looks better now due to the abitlity to threaten Pyuku effectively and other water mons. Bad time for our summer bird, its usage should decline during the next months.

Different forms of Silvally stay good for plenty different good reasons. However, some of them looks less useful now we get two other good defoggers. I talked about Silvally-Dark and Grass which struggled a lot in a previous post, i dont think they will be better for us now. More surprising, Silvally-FIghting doesnt look to enjoy the meta either. It stays one of the best Vigo answer and a good switch-in to Pinsir, yes, but its fighting coverage doesnt look as good as it was. Silvally-Water and Dragon stay alright even if you risk in playing them to face toxic spikes. Silvally-Poison doesnt suffer for that but misses, at the contrary, Lurantis and Toxic Spikes spam meta. The Silvally, once again even if they aren't bad, look simply not as useful to run as they were previously.

----

Other quicks obvious noms :

Gourgeist-Large B+ -> Unranked
Gourgeist-Super

Seaking B -> Unranked ?
It's only utility now that Frosttom is gone is to counter Zebstrika Hp Ice... Which isn't the best Pokémon ever. Other electric types dont care about it

Torkoal C -> Unranked
Didnt move since Sandslash is arrived. Now we get Komola, Altaria and still more water types against who it cannot do anything. Its very bad shell smash set which was outclassed by crustle is even now totally walled by Pyukumuku.

Golem Alola C+ -> C/C-
Didnt move since Probopass is arrived.

Agree with Sliggo dropping by the way.

Other things should have done in lower rank such as clean some useless mon in C and D notably bad hazards removers (Wartortle, bad Vallys). TR and Webs setter should drop also in the future because they are played in a outclassed playstyle or struggle a lot of the arrival of rapid spinners/pyukumuku. But that's obviously less urgent, the A rank is a priority.

Enjoy the meta ~

 

[Ampha]

Ok so opinion on drops rankings:
Swanna: A/A+ I'd say,incredible mon with either Flyinium and Choice scarf, although some flaws hold It back
Floatzel: A+ material for sure imo,either Choice band,BU or special sets make this a great offensive threat with good versatility
Pyu:

now serious call,A- material imo,can get higher as time passes and It proves itself even more busted
Altaria: A- i'd say,solid mon & deffoger,can go higher in near future tho
Gourgeist:Bulkier large Gourgeist,but still not enough for higher tbh,sub It on large and UR large
Sleepy boi Aka komala: probably A-/A,it's low speed can be dope but having a great ammount versatility is good as well,Big kek is still my boi tho

Now for old ones:
For sure most electrics should rise,specially
Electivire which gets better as a scarf rn

Get my duo up >:(

Oricorio :blobdancer: baile should get back to rank it was on lurantis,as lurantis isn't here anymore

Monferno should drop too imo,Very hurt with moveslots having to cover swanna and alt ar same time and can't really break pyuku bb

Seaking-> lower,i wouldnt say UR or UU bc electrics will get better for sure so i'd say C-/C

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

Hey guys, just wanted to make everybody aware that a VR Update will be coming, however as a result of these recent drastic shifts we'd like to let the meta develop and settle a bit before making our decisions rather than attempting to blindly and prematurely estimate viability. Sample Teams and sample sets are being done as well, so lots to look forward to!

Thanks for your patience and stay tuned!!

 

[Absolute Infinity]

Floatzel -> A+
Floatzel’s speed and versatility make it extremely impactful in ZU’s metagame. It can easily sweep slightly weakened teams and is very effective and revenge killing and breaking. Special, band, mixed, Z-low kick and many more sets are all fantastic at winning games. It does still have the problem of being very frail and sometimes not being quite strong enough or having quite enough coverage, so I don’t think it deserves S-rank, but it is definitely one of the best pokemon in the tier. A word of caution: if the metagame shifts more towards offense at some point, Floatzel could easily become overbearing because of the dearth of effective faster pokemon in ZU. As long as stuff in the meta stays reasonably bulky, I don’t see floatzel as a problem.

Komala -> A+
This is a much healthier Stoutland for ZU, and a much more versatile one. Choice Band Komala is ferocious, but counterable and somewhat slow and frail. Tons of other sets are also effective, from swords dance to assault vest to choice scarf. Meme last resort is entertaining, but really bad. Komala really shines due to its awesome ability giving it an immunity to status, letting it switch in on a variety of walls with near impunity. Superpower, earthquake, and knock off give it plenty of coverage, sucker punch gives it use vs offense, rapid spin makes it a great hazard remover, and u-turn makes it function amazingly in volt-turn teams.

Swanna -> A
Fast, strong flying stab, great offensive and defensive typing. Its like a water Oricorio, but faster and better. Held back by frailty and electric-types. Floatzel encourages checks to Swanna on accident, but Swanna still works very well.

Pyukumuku -> A-
Stall is back, pyukumuku makes it happen. Very bulky, good at trapping and pp-stalling with block. Has a few ways it can be customized to beat various threats. It is very beatable if one focuses on breaking it, and ZU has lots of stall breaking options. The machine in which Pyuku is one cog seems to be stoppable.

Altaria -> A/A-
Great stall and balance pokemon. It has lots of cool options like heal bell and perish song. Great for taking on Monferno, Rapidash, Leafeon, and Shiftry.

Gourgeist-Super -> A-
It’s just Gourgeist-Large, but now there are more Pokemon to support its walling capabilities and it counters the very dangerous Komala.

Some other nominations:

Simisear B -> B+/A-

Nasty plot is a great stall breaker and is still effective against most other playstyles. Specifically Firium Z nasty plot with taunt beats almost everything on stall with ease. Pyuku is powerless unless its Z-Toxic, Altaria can’t do much back after taunt, especially if flamethrower is its only attack, Lickilicky sometimes just faints to +2, and ditto doesn’t even ko back but falls to Z in return at +2. The decline in Grumpig is great for this set, as it the increase of slower pokemon. Use this before PU realizes it’s their best fire type!

Calcs

+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Komala: 346-408 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 260-306 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Simisear Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Water: 374-440 (94.9 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 283-334 (93 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 348-411 (107.4 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 357-421 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 370-436 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Komala: 259-306 (95.5 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Importable

Simisear @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Taunt

Rapidash A -> A-
Altaria, Pyuku, and Floatzel are all bad news for Rapidash. Losing Rotom-F, Lurantis, and Ninetales also removes some of its use.

Simipour A- -> B+
Lots of competition from Floatzel and some shared checks and counters. Simipour can beat some things that Floatzel can’t with better coverage, but overall it’s probably usually better to use Floatzel instead.

Electivire A- -> A/A+
Less competition now that Rotom-F is gone and increased usefulness in handling bulky teams with its great coverage. Scarf, E-belt, life orb, and even Z-Wild Charge are all great.

Lickilicky B+ -> A-
Stall is back.

Metang B+ -> B-
What does this do exactly? Bronzor is better at most defensive roles thanks to levitate. Its 75 base attack doesn’t get it very far with Meteor Mash/EQ. Pursuit seems like its biggest niche, but that’s only for Kadabra and Grumpig? Grumpig isn’t that common, doesn’t die to Pursuit and can even stay in if it has shadow ball. Kadabra is nice to trap but it can win with counter if it has its sash intact. I guess its also sort of harder to trap with Probo than Bronzor b/c of eq, but overall I found Metang very lackluster. Maybe I'm looking at this pokemon wrong, but I tried it and it did very little. I was surprised by how pathetically weak Meteor Mash seemed.

 

[Puer Abutens]

(Its my second rank nomination, so probably it has something wrong)

Servine -> Higher (Probably B-)
That Vegan Snake now has a interesting Niche of Bulky Deffoger with Lurantis getting out. But what Servine has of useful that Altaria and16326449565 Silvally forms don't ? Simple, Servine has a offensive presence,like swanna, but without also being frail, Contrary Leaf Storm do a chunk of Damage to some threats. When also having Taunt to stop Bronzora and a 100% acc Glare that works on Ground Types, when also having Knock Off.

Calcs

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chatot: 225-264 (76.7 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 255-301 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But obviously it has some serious flaws:The main (probably only) form of attacking is Leaf Storm, that has only 8 PP and gets absolutely destroyed by Sap Sippers like Zebstrika and Bouffalant, so to actually do some Damage it would need Toxic, that isn't very easy to put in the moveset, also its only form of recovery is Synthesis (Giga Drain isn't very reliable) and unlike Altaria's Roost, has only 8 PP and heals less in Hail (and Sand, but isn't very useful rn without the Doggo), when also being very vunerable to Knock Off, that removes its "Bulky" factor.
I was thinking of a Moveset like this:

Sample (?)

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Taunt

 

[275p]

(Its my second rank nomination, so probably it has something wrong)
View attachment 139913
Servine -> Higher (Probably B-)
That Vegan Snake now has a interesting Niche of Bulky Deffoger with Lurantis getting out. But what Servine has of useful that Altaria and16326449565 Silvally forms don't ? Simple, Servine has a offensive presence,like swanna, but without also being frail, Contrary Leaf Storm do a chunk of Damage to some threats. When also having Taunt to stop Bronzora and a 100% acc Glare that works on Ground Types, when also having Knock Off.

Calcs

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chatot: 225-264 (76.7 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 255-301 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But obviously it has some serious flaws:The main (probably only) form of attacking is Leaf Storm, that has only 8 PP and gets absolutely destroyed by Sap Sippers like Zebstrika and Bouffalant, so to actually do some Damage it would need Toxic, that isn't very easy to put in the moveset, also its only form of recovery is Synthesis (Giga Drain isn't very reliable) and unlike Altaria's Roost, has only 8 PP and heals less in Hail (and Sand, but isn't very useful rn without the Doggo), when also being very vunerable to Knock Off, that removes its "Bulky" factor.
I was thinking of a Moveset like this:

Sample (?)

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Taunt

Dude you need to replace taunt with an attacking move or else you`ll be countered by sap sipper users like gogoat or bouffalant.

 

[Jmash]

Dude you need to replace taunt with an attacking move or else you`ll be countered by sap sipper users like gogoat or bouffalant.

I’m sorry but could you please stop posting one liners?

To not seem completely hypocritical, I think Servine can get away with running no actual coverage if it really wants to, considering Servine does absolutely nothing to these pokemon regardless of what it runs, and honestly Taunt would annoy them more if they are running Substitute+set up move, compared to a random Hidden Power doing 15%. It’s interesting to see Servine in this meta with its main competition gone in Lurantis.

 

[Eve]

(Its my second rank nomination, so probably it has something wrong)
View attachment 139913
Servine -> Higher (Probably B-)
That Vegan Snake now has a interesting Niche of Bulky Deffoger with Lurantis getting out. But what Servine has of useful that Altaria and16326449565 Silvally forms don't ? Simple, Servine has a offensive presence,like swanna, but without also being frail, Contrary Leaf Storm do a chunk of Damage to some threats. When also having Taunt to stop Bronzora and a 100% acc Glare that works on Ground Types, when also having Knock Off.

Calcs

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chatot: 225-264 (76.7 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

+3 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 255-301 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But obviously it has some serious flaws:The main (probably only) form of attacking is Leaf Storm, that has only 8 PP and gets absolutely destroyed by Sap Sippers like Zebstrika and Bouffalant, so to actually do some Damage it would need Toxic, that isn't very easy to put in the moveset, also its only form of recovery is Synthesis (Giga Drain isn't very reliable) and unlike Altaria's Roost, has only 8 PP and heals less in Hail (and Sand, but isn't very useful rn without the Doggo), when also being very vunerable to Knock Off, that removes its "Bulky" factor.
I was thinking of a Moveset like this:

Sample (?)

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Taunt

I'd also like to mention that Scarfed Servine isn't all that bad either in this meta, and I was going to make a post on it regardless! A set of Leaf Storm / Taunt / Defog / Knock Off can make for a threatening revenge killer versus many foes such as Dugtrio, Golem, Floatzel and more with the added potential to snowball offensive teams, has the ability to break through bulky teams fairly effectively with just Leaf Storm and Knock Off yummy pyukumukus and provides disruption to sweepers in the form of Glare. It also works great as a secondary Defogger, especially on builds vulnerable to Webs thanks to contrary (not that non-scarf builds don't, but it's still worth mentioning)! It really benefits from the loss of a popular faster Scarfer in Frosttom and has performed as intended in testing. A surprisingly effective support scarfer that I'd recommend anyone interested to try.

Note: I did consider something like Hidden Power Fire over Knock Off for Abomasnow as last move, but Servine isn't that strong and it only does about 50% which isn't very useful unless you want to make some crazy predictions. Just stick with Knock Off or maybe a screen, it'll be more useful most of the time.

EDIT: Glad to see this spawned quite a bit of controversy in the Discord and birthed a new meme lol
Also I would like to clarify once more that Scarf Servine's main selling point is its utility, which is aided by its snowballing potential providing pressure. Don't want to be misunderstood again :]

 

[Poke2950]

The changes that I see:

(up) Its amazing against stall with toxic killing pyuk and gourgeist although toxic isn't needed to out stall the pyuk without spite I believe as 160 attack hits hard. Power up punch would be the sub at plus one it could kill lots of things with frustration uninvestead after. The most important thing is to run enough defense to not get sub one shoted by foul play. Also nice against trick room as it outspeeds outside of tr and it requires some turns to set up tr,rocks and explosion. Regi for S rank



Chinchou(down): Rotom frost is gone

 

[Puer Abutens]

Chinchou(down): Rotom frost is gone

Probably not since it walls Swanna and some Floatzel sets

Now its time to a obvious denomination:

Gourgueist-Large -> Lower (Maybe even UU or UR)

That is pretty simple, so (of course) doesn't need too much, GORGUEIST-SUPER IS IN THE TIER, Gourgueist-Large is just a less bulkier form of it so being totally outclassed, because honestly that extra Speed sounds useless in a mon that is normally a wall

 

[Absolute Infinity]

Last post on Corsola before VR update, I promise.

Warning: long post

I made a pretty detailed post before the drops, but I wanted to clarify corsola’s role post drops and specify what it actually does vs various pokemon in ZU.

New Drops:

Swanna: good check to Swanna. Swanna does not 2hko without life orb surf or specs. Corsola toxics in return and heals back up. Beating Swanna is especially important, as Swanna is a defogger that may try to remove rocks.

Floatzel: ok scout to floatzel. Only OHKOed sometimes by Z-focus punch or life orb Focus Blast after rocks or specs Focus Blast half the time (when it hits). Physical sets that have used up their Z or didn’t have it to start are checked very well, taking helmet along the way. In practice, floatzel seems to struggle vs Corsola with a bulky grass that floatzel might try to ice beam/punch. Corsola also takes trick from band or specs much better than most defensive pokemon because it still heals with regenerator without locking itself into recover.

Komala: depends on the set, but useful to have. Adamant choice band never OHKOes with earthquake after rocks and U-turn is more than healed off with regen. Superpower can OHKO after rocks, so that can be problematic. Swords dance is more of an issue though, since corsola can’t do much back. Assault vest is annoyed by helmet and has to predict right a lot to do much. Gourgeist-Super + Corsola shuts down Komala pretty well most of the time since Corsola punishes U-turn and keeps Gourgeist from being worn down.

Altaria: stalemate? Corsola has trouble wearing down Altaria thanks to natural cure, but Altaria pretty much won’t beat Corsola even with toxic thanks to regen. At least Corsola can force a defog. A game with these two is going to go long. Thankfully rocks has more pp than defog. Altaria without defog is free rocks.

Pyukumuku: beware of block. Corsola is nearly unkillable for stall otherwise, but if they have a ditto, Corsola can give stall infinite rocks.

Gourgeist-Super: good partner. Not much else to say. Switches in freely if gourg doesn’t have seed bomb.

A-ranks:
Golem: always live an eq and can scald/toxic/rocks back. Don’t scald if sturdy is intact because of weakness policy.

Kecleon: good pivot into kec even if drain punch can 2hko. Switches into everything else and toxics/rocks back. Generally, a secondary check will be needed, but still a good pivot to weaken kec with helmet.

Chatot: counters scarf, checks specs very well. Nasty plot can be a problem.

Rapidash: counters most and chips with helmet. Z-electric/ground can break through if they hit Corsola with a super effective move as it switches in, but the Z-move can often be scouted with a grass type.

Silvally: pretty much eventually wins vs all forms bar grass. Fighting does 2hko, but slowly loses health if Corsola is played correctly with a fighting resist.

Vigoroth: can be useful to pp-stall non-façade variants. Sub variants may struggle since a +6 return doesn’t 2hko. If its façade, you can intentionally not burn it, then pp stall it. Beating Vigoroth in this way requires a ghost type, but it can work even if the ghost is poisoned.

Muk: offensive sets are walled without choice band Focus Punch. Curse variants can be pp-stalled if the team has something else that can at least kind of take +6 poison jabs. Can at least force curse variants to rest and set rocks.

Bouffalant: pivots on AV and band, but is unfortunately set-up bait vs sub swords dance.

Oricorio: counters unless hp grass.

B-ranks
Granbull: useful pivot vs band, but cc can ohko unfortunately. Switches in fine vs defensive.

Pawniard: chips with helmet, switches into everything but swords dance pretty well, and at least does half back even then. Can burn with scald.

Mawile: walls, outlasts, burns. Doesn’t mind toxic too much. Sheer force doesn’t 2hko without thunder punch.

Metang: walls, outlasts, burns.

Purugly: fantastic check with helmet. Life Orb Stomping Tantrum does not 2hko with rocks

Seaking: walls, but no more frost-rotom, so whatever.

Beartic: walls listed set that lacks superpower, but most that I have fought have superpower. Still useful to take crashes.

Basculin: good pivot, superpower is nowhere near an ohko.

Raticate: walls unless swords dance stomping tantrum. Rocky helmet is very useful for wearing raticate down.

Other than that, there are a bunch of passive things that switch into Corsola and vice versa as well as most choice scarf pokemon that Corsola is useful against. I don’t have good replays of Corsola after drops because there is no ladder, but I posted a bunch back in my older posts in this thread.

 

[Mintly]

Gonna make another nomination. I like unmons OK?

- Unranked -> UU/C-/C Before this tier shift it was a terrible defensive Pokemon due to the problem it faced when up against Rotom-Frost, who was on nearly every team. After Rotom-Frost left, it got a bit better. able to eat physical attacks more and more with the help of Stamina makes this a bulky physical defensive Pokemon. It stops Pokemon like Evire and Rotom-F from Volt Switching and can Rest off a status. the set i use currently unfortunately cant hit Bronzor but having Probopass on it's team makes them good partners.

The Set.png

Mudbray @ Eviolite
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Sleep Talk
- Rest

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-826257378
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-820906834
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-825563397
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-819737257

- UU -> Unranked. Sun is DEAD people. This thing has no use here.

Im also going to say in this post just for a quick note, I may nominate tons of Unmons, but thats only because I think there's potential. You may hateme /find me inexperienced just for this, but I just do it because its fun. Thank you.

 

[Xayah]

Alright this is not a full VR update, but the council has gotten in their votes on the new drops and these will be posted ahead of time. It will still be a while before the rest of the VR gets updates due to the influx of changes we've had, but we're working on it! Anyway, without further ado, here are the placements for the new Pokemon:

Floatzel S

Komala A+

Altaria A

Gourgeist-XL A

Pyukumuku A-

Swanna A-

To see the reasoning for these, check out this spreadsheet!
DurzaOffTopic decided to abstain this round as he is currently too busy.

 

[Xayah]

I'd also like to remind everyone that one liners are discouraged. You do not have to write a massive 2k word post, but I would encourage you to write at least a paragraph. It allows for far more discussion than simple one line posts and really opens up the thread for people to talk about.
So, in order to immediately follow my own advice, I'm gonna make a quick post on Komala, cause I wanna get people to talk about this thing. Everyone knows how much I like this Pokemon by now, but it's also legitimately one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Between Choice Band, WishTect, Assault Vest, Swords Dance + Grassium Z, and SpDef Bulk Up, this thing is seriously versatile and the status immunity allows it to have an excellent matchup against stall no matter what set it has. There's still so many possibilities for this thing and I really wanna see what other people have come up with. For example, do you run Sucker Punch? It makes your matchup against Gourg worse but that's already really bad and the priority it provides can be quite useful in revenge killing certain threats like a weakened Floatzel. Let me know your thoughts!

 

[5gen]

VR update time, A-ranks edition. More to come for B-ranks in the near future.
Rises:

A to A+

A- to A+

(Water) A- to A

Drops:

A+ to A

A+ to A-

A+ to B+

A to A-

A to A-

A to B+

A to A-

A to A-

A to A-

A- to B+

A- to B+

A- to B+

Reasoning and voting slate

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

edit: old monferno nom was originally above
All your calcs seem very pointless- An adamant Choice Band Thunder Punch can OHKO a frail water-type? An adamant Choice Band Flare Blitz can OHKO a grass-type? Pignite reaches the same calcs but significantly better but that doesn't make it a good Pokemon. Of course a Choice Band Fighting-type can OHKO Lickilicy or Vigoroth or a frail Pokemon like Rapidash. Of course it can OHKO Bronzor with CB STAB Flare Blitz. You didn't even calc Gourgeist-Super correctly as its not a +def nature. Thats not the issue that Monferno is having right now. It can't break through things like Altaria and Gabite and Mareanie and its moveset is struggling, especially in the terms of set viability.

In my opinion this is the best Monferno set:

Monferno @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Vacuum Wave / Work Up / Stealth Rock / Thunder Punch / Will-o-Wisp etc.
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast

Mixed HP Ice Monferno is actually really decent right now. It can't break Mareanie but thats pretty much going to be an issue with all non CB Tpunch sets, but it allows it to be very powerful as an all out attacker while luring in things like Gabite and Altaria. Mareanie is decreasing in usage/viability too which helps. I think we dropped it a bit too far but it still took a big plunge in the metagame. I struggle to put it on teams where I'm not using it as an offensive rocker and even there I feel like it doesn't do its job optimally.

 

[Tuthur]

Hi, I'm here to write a new big post.
First I'd like to say that i've found the current metagame to be far healthier than before with every playstyle being viable (even if HO is imo better). I still believe Vigoroth to be broken but nobody uses it so i won't complain on it this time.
I'd rather talk about everybody's favorite playstyle: STALL.

I) The team I used
I ran two different teams on the ladder, which allowed me to pick top 250 and top 100 (I'd probably can go higher with them but i'm bored using stall).
So here are the two teams:

Description

Like most stall the team is based on the best stall core: Lickilicky+Pyukumuku. This core has the advantage to take care of the majority of the tier thanks to their great abilities and bulks. Tho they struggle against a lot of Pokémon including: mold Breaker users, physical offensive Grass-type, special attacker with Fighting-coverage, Toxic users, strong wallbreakers, ...
That's why Avalugg was added, it's a great physical wall which can take care on Fraxure, Electivire, Leafeon, Shiftry, Komala and Perish trappers. Roselia was also added to deal with Simipour, Simisage, Raichu, Special Floatzel and provides cleric support as well as absorbing T-Spikes.
The team need something to deal with Hazards and Psychic-types such as Grumpig and Beheeyem. Natu was added for its ability to beat the most common hazard setters in the tier, while Bronzor was added for its ability to take on Psychic-type and Rock-types.

Description

I also began this team with Lickilicky+Pyukumuku+Roselia because i've found them to be very successfull in the previous team. I added Vibrava for its ability to beat the majority of the hazard setter. I added then Dusclops which got quickly replaced by Avalugg. The team struggled against Bronzor and Smeargle because it beated all my hazard setters, i tried Altaria and Oricorio which both were uneffective dealing with Bronzor and ended up with a mon that seemed to be unviable at first glence but which is able to take care of Bronzor and some Grumping/Beheeyem sets.

I don't have many replaies to show with these teams because I almost always forgot to save replaies and half the team I faced were bad low ladder Ariados sticky web.
Replay with team 1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-824554626
Replay with team 2: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-827299678

II) How to build/use stall
There are three things you need to think about while building stall:

• Being able to counter the most used Pokémon in the tier
• Having a strong hazard control
• Having counterplaies to more niche Pokémon.

A) Counter the most used Pokémon in the tier​

together they can wall most of the Pokémon in the tier and their set can be adapted to the rest of the team.

having Pokémon immune to Toxic is peremptory because its one the best way to reliably deal with defensive walls.

they can take care of Pokémon that beat Lickilicky+Pyukumuku.
Also you need a way to deal with Pokémon with recovery it can consider of running Toxic or Pressure/Spite or fast Taunt.

B) Hazard Control​

The biggest weakness of stall are the Hazards. That's why you need to be able to defog on the most used hazard setters:

.
Here are the defogger/hazard removers able to deal with the most used hazard setter:

There is no defogger or couple of defogger able to deal with every hazard setter in the tier, that's why if your facing one of them you need to do your best to not let it having the possibility to set up the hazard.

C) Counterplaies to more niche Pokémon​

The best teams have way to beat Lickilicky+Pyukumuku and their teammates. That's why you need to prepare for these Pokémon more particulary, they offen don't have real defensive counterplaies:

(Taunt)

(Specs and SD)

(Nasty Plot)

(Sub/Taunt+Nasty Plot)

(Sub/Taunt+Nasty Plot)

(Energy Ball)

(SD)

(Taunt)

(Specs)

(Perish Trap)

(Perish Trap)

(Perish Trap)

(not Scarf)

(Taunt)

(Nasty Plot)
If you see them at team preview, you need to keep their check at good health and prevent them to have free switch-in. If you don't see one of them at team preview you can do more safe plays and don't worry about being predicted on one turn. The problem can be solved by running Ditto in stall (tho be worry of Substitute).

III) How to beat stall
You can't beat stall if you didn't prepare for it. So here are some way to pressurize these teams:

A) Specific hazard setters​

All the hazard remover with recovery in ZU have are weak to ice (except Avalugg). A Kecleon with Ice Punch and Stealth Rock is really good against stall. Be worry about: Avalugg even if you have Shadow Sneak since Avalanche does a ton, Toxic and other passive damages.

Shell Smash Crustle with SR/Spikes is really hard to beat for stall since at +2 only Pyukumuku can deal with Crustle. At +2 Crustle is able to OHKO every hazard remover in stall outside of Vibrava which is 2HKO and can't do a lot back.

Hidden Power Ice Camerupt is able to deal with every hazard removers.

Lunatone while being completely trash against every hazard setter can 1v1 every hazard remover.
A replay showing a Lunatone and a Shell Smash Crustle putting work against stall: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-825851058. I still win but i let imagine what would have happen if Crustle hit more than 2 Rock Blast.

B) Volt-Turn​

Outside of Vibrava there is no viable electric immunity in stall, meaning that you can freely Volt-Switch to rack chip damages against stall teams (Vibrava has a trash bulk and can't afford to take a Hidden Power Ice or an Ice Punch.

C) Specific Mons​

These Pokémon can almost on their own beats stall teams. But with right supports (volt-turn, hazard supports, type spam or lures) all the already mentionned niche Pokémon can beat stall.

This Pokémon can wall a huge portion of the stall staples (Pyukumuku, Altaria, Lickilicky, Vibrava, Mareanie, Bronzor, Gourgeist, ...). A replay i found on Discord.

IV) Nomination for the VR in relation with stall effectiveness

B- -> B

B- ->B+ with stall being good these Pokémon that can basically 6-0 most stall while being good in the other match-up. Rampardos deserves to be higher because it doesn't need to set-up and isn't walled by every fairy-type.

C -> B- Avalugg is so good for taking care of physical attackers that threatens Pyukumuku like Leafeon, Komala or Abomasnow. While not suffering from the Hail like Gourgeist. It's also a good answers to Perish Trap Pokémon thanks to Roar, and brings utility thanks to Rapid Spin.

C -> C+/B- Natu prevents most hazard setters to set their hazards, this include a lot of popular setters: Bronzor, Probopass, Mawile, Dugtrio-Alola, Sandslash, Dugtrio, Gabite, Smeargle, Shuckle, Prinplup and Metang. Natu can also beat Golem, defensive Crustle and Armaldo in a 1v1 situation thanks to Reflect, and even offensive Crustle if got lucky with the Rock Blast rolls. Outside of stall teams Natu is strong for walling most stall Pokémon (it's almost impossible for a stall team to beat Natu).

C->C+ Vibrava is one of the most reliable Defogger in stall it can 1v1 most of the hazard setters (Golem, non Shell Smash Crustle, Stunfisk, Sandslash, Shuckle, ...)

UR -> UU Seems like the most appropriate rank for a rocker that is good against every defensive hazard remover but struggles against every offensive rocker and every offensive remover.

UR->UU As a small niche in stall teams, I sadly don't have saved any replay where I puts it in work but if you test the stall with it, you'll see what i'm talking about.

 

[JdRDMS]

Just a quick nom:

B+ -> A- (Why...)
Honestly I don't think this was necessary. I don't think its as good as it was, but B+ seems a bit unnecessary. It can deal with several threats with its different moves. DOT showed me this set, and yeah I have to agree, it is probably the best set.
Monferno @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Vacuum Wave / Work Up / Stealth Rock / Thunder Punch / Will-o-Wisp etc.
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
Hidden Power Ice is the highlight, dealing with several things that would normally wall Monferno, like Durgonvally, Gabite, Altaria, etc. Close Combat and Fire Blast are for STAB, obviously. The final move though, makes Monfeno quite versatile. It can be a special priority user, hazard setter, setup sweeper, status inflicter, etc. These points were also given by DOT, and I'm not trying to steal the post. I just agree with everything you said. (He said it was ok)
Yes, it does struggle a bit against stall, but that's where the other 5 team members come in. Again, I don't think it deserves A+, but B+ seems a bit too harsh.

I also agree with Metang dropping, but not all the way to B-. I think B is more suitable.

 

[5gen]

New VR changes. B-ranks were overhauled, alongside a few Pokemon from A-ranks sprinkled in.

A-ranks changes

A to A-

A- to B+ (3 votes for A-, 3 for B+, 2 for B-)

A- to B+

B-ranks Rises

B+ to A-

B+ to A-

-Poison B to B+ (B+ has 2 votes, A- has 2 votes, 1 vote B-, 1 vote B)

B to B+

B to B+

B to B+

B- to B

B- to B

B- to B

B- to B

B-ranks Drops

B+ to B

-L B+ to UU

B+ to B

B+ to B

B+ to B-

B+ to B

B+ to B-

B+ to B

B+ to B

B to C

-Grass B to B-

B to B-

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

B- to C+

Voting Slate

 

[Not Miyan]

I want to nominate glalie to C+ as an offensive spiker.
There are only two pokemons which learn spikes and taunt in whole tier, Glalie and Quilladin.
Glalie is really good on HO teams, it gets explosion alongside taunt and spikes.
Here is ps tours replay where glalie set up spikes and stopped huntail sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-833759229
With spikes and explosion support mons like pawniard and pinsir could sweep through teams.
I encourage you guys to use offensive spikes glalie.

Glalie @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Ice Shard
You can change the 4th move, I kinda like to have priorities for those oricorio birds

Edit: tours finals replay
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-833761657
Glalie prevented sr from bronzer and it really helped pinsir

 

[Apagogie]

I would like to start a discussion about nuking the S rank.

Floatzel S -> A+
It is one of the best mon in ZU and currently probably the best. It's not a discussion about if Floatzel is better or worse than a month ago because I strongly think nothing has really changed and it stays as good as it has always been. I would like to discuss about the material reality of the S rank in our current metagame. I dont think Floatzel is a large step above the rest of our A+ rank.

If we remember what was S rank in the past without a doubt, we think instantly to Frosttom and Stoutland; Both were suspected, the second has even been banned. Both introduced unviable or more or less correct mons in viable teams just to be able to deal with them, such as seaking/chinchou/avalugg/strassie/mawile. Both doesnt even need any support, except the elementary one, to be threaten as hell. You could add them in really whatever teams.

As good as Floatzel is, it is exaggerated to say it fills the same characteristics. It is not broken by any means and even if it lacks of real true counters according to its sets, it's not the only Pokémon in ZU which lacks of answers. At the contrary, a team cannot deal currently defensively with every threat and you rely often on your RK to dont be pressured which is not only due to the floatzel's presence. The centralization of Floatzel in the metagame is important but not on the level of bringing unviable mons as it was in the past. There is a huge difference between play Strassie and Chinchou or mons like Gourgeist-Super, Silvally-Water, Mareanie, Pyukumuku, Swanna / etc. The second one are excellent mons which would be anyway played in every team even without Floatzel (due to other powerful threats such as komala/monferno/combusken/...).
It is totally true that Floatzel is able on paper to deal with these mons according to its set but these sets lack generally of flexibility and it is the main reason why they aren't spammed, in addition to not always beat what they want. Moreover, if you play the wrong set against one of these counters, floatzel becomes useless as long as these mons are on the ground. That was never the case for Stoutland (whatever the opponent had, it was severely crippled) and almost never for Frosttom, except if you run unviable mons beside the fridge match up, such as Chinchou/Seaking, which is a different situation than be walled by mareanie/gourgeist-super. It means that Floatzel requires more support, more support than the elementary one (Stealth Rock/Defog), too much support to be as splashable as it would like to be. It needs the opposite team chipped by its teammate to be in a comfortable situation.

What is my conclusion to that ? Floatzel is without a doubt an excellent Pokémon which is arguably the best one in the tier. But does the best mon in the tier always deserve the S rank ? It centralizes a lot the teambuilding, making Pokémon like Electivire Scarf/Silvally-Water/Gourgeist-Super very good but again, they are staple mons even without the presence of floatzel. If you ask me "What is the best Pokémon in ZU right now ?" I will probably answer Floatzel, but Komala isn't far behind, and other mons aren't far from komala either. Floatzel isn't as much the symbol of the ZU in terms of pressure, splashability and centralization as previous S ranks were. That's why I think the S rank right now doesnt have an obvious sense to exist and it would be more accurate to send Floatzel in the A+ rank.

Other noms :

Swanna A- -> A
I didnt feel Swanna was excellent when it dropped to ZU last month but i have realised now why PU people loved it so much. Its offensive presence is amazing due to its unresisted Flying/Water Stab (beside Chinchou)and its 97 Speed is very interesting. If the special version is very correct, the physical is however the best one. Indeed, we lack of strong flying resist in the tier and the only one we have are often weak to water such as golem. The common physical walls we have in balance/BO/semi-stall struggle a lot to handle Swanna in the time. Gourgeist-Super is 2HKO, Silvally-Water can take only one hit, Altaria dies to Brave bird + Z-Brave bird. With Knock Off support, Mareanie doesnt handle Swanna and cannot do anything against. Only Bronzor in current mons takes its moves pretty well, which isn't as seen as before and which is anyway pretty easy to take advantage of with Knock off support or with a Fire-Water-Grass core.

Some calcs :

Calcs

252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Altaria: 145-172 (41 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Altaria: 231-273 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Silvally-Water: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Silvally-Water: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 96-114 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 153-180 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mareanie (Knock Offed): 144-171 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even if the teams are prepared against physical water types due to Floatzel, they dont have exactly the same counters. I add too that stuff like Zebstrika/Electivire can RK swanna but cannot switch on obviously. Its speed allows to outspeed base 95 stuff like Sivally-Water/Electivire no-scarf/Leafeon which are all common at the moment. It is not as passive as altaria is, which is very enjoyable in this meta.

Some replays :

Replays

Against pitches
Against Orange Memes
Against quagsgone

Combusken A- -> A
Physical SD without Protect, Special and even mixed are all very threaten. It has few good counters such as Mareanie/Pyukumuku but that's really all and the usage of the first one has fallen. The rest of the meta struggle to handle its hits, it's a terrific late game sweper and our best fire type at the moment. I enjoy a lot the Z-Sky Uppercut version recently which is able to OHKO at +2 with little damages Silvally-Water : +2 252 Atk Combusken All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Silvally-Water: 295-348 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Beside the Mareanie/Pyuku problem and the fact than it's sometimes a risky choice to dont run Protect, Combusken doesnt like the base 90-95 scarfer either which outspeed it even with +2 in speed. That's effectively an issue but it is these points which prevents it to be awful to deal with. Floatzel + Combusken + an electric type is very difficult to handle even with these flaws so if they didnt exist, Combusken would be bordeline in ZU. I think globally that it is definitely a threat to take into account in the teambuilding such as mons like Kecleon, Abomasnow or Vigoroth and that's why it deserves to be higher. The A rank looks suitable.

Mawile B- -> B
Mawile is a Pokémon which is bit too hated. It offers a great amount of resists in the current meta, especially it's a good answer to big set up sweepers which are generally strong against stall such as Pinsir Z-X-Scizzor / Stone-Edge, Shiftry, Leafeon or Regigigas according to the mawile's set. Outside of stall, Mawile offers a correct answer to several mons like Physical Floatzel but also Kecleon or some Komala sets. If taunt is played, it's notably a good pick against wish Komala. Intimidate is anyway a moment useful in a battle.
Probopass isn't very played at the moment either which removes the main big problem of its steel type.
Globally, even if it has obvious flaws (the 4MSS is annoying), it is far too be useless currently and even bring enjoyable resists and solidity to a team. B- is underranked for Mawile, B is a better place.

Drops

Silvally-Fighting A -> A-
I love Silvally-Fighting but i have to recognize it isn't as useful as it was previously. It is not anymore at the level of Silvally-Water and at the rest of th A rank. Fighting type isn't as good as it used to be with common flying types with recovery such as Swanna or Altaria. We have a lot of defog users in ZU right now and the reason to use Vally-Fighting over them is hard to justify. You will use it when you're very weak to Kecleon/Vigoroth and when you want something to pressure Golem or Komala. It isn't bad by any means but certainly a bit more specific, which supports only some kind of teams. A- reflects better the influence it exerces on the metagame right now than A. The offensive SD set stays good however.

Probopass A -> A-
Probopass is mainly used to trap steel types. It is not free, to be able to beat bronzor (which is the most used steel) Probopass relys on the combinaison of smack down + Z-Earth power so the Z-slot. As long as steel types are used, Probopass has a decent role in ZU. When they aren't, it's more complicated.

Recently, the usage of Bronzor which was pretty high started slowly to calm down. Beside Bronzor, other steel types (Metang/Pawniard/Mawile) aren't used enough to justify to play Probopass. Indeed, if you dont trap anything, Probopass is a Pokémon average or even below the average, it's just a slow bulky mon without strength, without recovery with a typing just good to check normal types. In no-steel types match-up, that is to say 80% of the time, you will play just with a big block of stone. And as I said above, Probopass is not free, you have to play the Z-Earth power on it, it doesn't only mean you dont have the Z-Move slot, it means as well that Probopass has no recovery. A passive slow bulky mon without any recovery, it's a dead slot. It doesn't have much Reason to be played currently but it's not only that, there is still a worse thing. The meta isn't kind with it. Water, Fighting and Water moves are everywhere. About 50% of the A to S Rank mons are fluently played with an offensive move of these types.... And there are 25% of defensive mons in the A rank.
I have maybe dramatized a little bit the situation of Probopass. The fact is Probopass is outclassed beside its role of trapper and trap isn't very effective at the moment. Muk + Probo core is still correct but it's a niche. If the usage of steels remain high in the future, I will be agree to rise it but currently, you cannot let A rank a mon which is usefull only in 1 battle on 5. We aren't in the Stoutland meta anymore where Mawile, Metang, Bronzor and opposite Probopass were in every team.

 

[Aleccat]

On "Floatzel for A+"

Okay, today I will be responding to the popular opinion that Floatzel somehow does not deserve S rank, at 2 in the morning.

I would like to start a discussion about nuking the S rank.

Floatzel S -> A+
It is one of the best mon in ZU and currently probably the best. It's not a discussion about if Floatzel is better or worse than a month ago because I strongly think nothing has really changed and it stays as good as it has always been. I would like to discuss about the material reality of the S rank in our current metagame. I dont think Floatzel is a large step above the rest of our A+ rank.

If we remember what was S rank in the past without a doubt, we think instantly to Frosttom and Stoutland; 1) Both were suspected, the second has even been banned. 2) Both introduced unviable or more or less correct mons in viable teams just to be able to deal with them, such as seaking/chinchou/avalugg/strassie/mawile. Both doesnt even need any support, except the elementary one, to be threaten as hell. You could add them in really whatever teams. 3)

1) I don't want to be hyperanalytical, but comparing S ranks to previous S ranks is ridiculous. However, while I firmly believe this, there are a lot of parallels between Frostom and Floatzel, namely in set versatility. If one wants to check physical BU Floatzel, one might run Gourgeist-Super.

+2 252 Atk Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Gourgeist-Super Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 286-337 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Kumbaya, you have your Floatzel check. Until.....

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 242-286 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is just one example, but it's an incredibly notable one. While Frostom could never be physical or special viably, it certainly picked what it checked/what checked it depending on set. Remember the Hex set Frostom used to be able to run to beat Grumpig? Or when Frostom could ruin stall's day by running SubSplit? Or how it could be a generally strong choice 'mon by its coverage and access to Trick? Floatzel literally echoes this, though obviously isn't as splashable. While this isn't a point against Floatzel for A+, I just wanted to elaborate on this comparison, because while it is a total oversimplification of two generally different Pokemon, it has some truth in it.

2) This is a minor nitpick: suspects do not equal S-rank. You can refer to Mesprit in PU as an example of a Pokemon who is meta-defining while not deserving of a suspect. This is not saying Floatzel does not need a suspect, that is for a whole different day.

3) This is where you really lost me. While I love the concept of S-ranks promoting usages of niche 'mons such as the ones you mentioned, most of these are suboptimal and faulty at best, so I'm going to break it down for those unaware. Icium-Z Seaking was Frostom's one true counter. It was also used solely for that purpose, with the added benefit of checking niche Electrics such as Zebstrika. Chinchou did not at all check Scarf Frostom, who was one of the most splashable and viable Trick + Choice Scarf 'mons of the tier, not to mention its general popularity. Here's everyone's favorite niche Stoutland check in action:

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 256-304 (64.9 - 77.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I won't knock Avalugg hard as a Stoutland check, but it's a defensive Ice-type. Stealth Rock has always been a near-essential move for most teams, and it pressures Avalugg incredibly hard as you can see.

While Carbink is an example of a niche Stoutland check, Carbink also had to rely on Rest for recovery, giving you two turns of free rain to do whatever.

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

While most Stoutlands did not run Stomping Tantrum on CB, couple this in with the fact that Z-Move + Work Up was a set endorsed by one of our tier leaders, and you have a shaky check at best.

+1 252+ Atk Stoutland Tectonic Rage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The same applies to Mawile, who was the most meta Stoutland check:

252+ Atk Stoutland Tectonic Rage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 238-282 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The overarching point I am trying to make is that, similar to these former S-ranks, Floatzel has the amount of true defensive counters that Rotom-Frost had, which is one, which I will get into later in this post.

As good as Floatzel is, it is exaggerated to say it fills the same characteristics. It is not broken by any means and even if it lacks of real true counters according to its sets, it's not the only Pokémon in ZU which lacks of answers. At the contrary, a team cannot deal currently defensively with every threat and you rely often on your RK to dont be pressured which is and is not only due to the floatzel's presence. The centralization of Floatzel in the metagame is important but not on the level of bringing unviable mons as it was in the past. There is a huge difference between play Strassie/Chinchou or mons like Gourgeist-Super / Silvally-Water / Mareanie / Pyukumuku / Swanna / etc. The second one are excellent mons which would be anyway played in every team even without Floatzel (due to other powerful threats such as komala/monferno/combusken/...) .4)
It is totally true that Floatzel is able on paper to deal with these mons according to its set but these sets lack generally of flexibility and it is the main reason why they aren't spammed, in addition to not always beat what they want. Moreover, if you play the wrong set against one of these counters, floatzel becomes useless as long as these mons are on the ground. That was never the case for Stoutland (whatever the opponent had, it was severely crippled) and almost never for Frosttom, except if you run unviable mons beside the fridge match up, such as Chinchou/Seaking, which is a different situation than be walled by mareanie/gourgeist-super. It means that Floatzel requires more support, more support than the elementary one (Stealth Rock/Defog), too much support to be as splashable as it would like to be. It needs the opposite team chipped by its teammate to be in a comfortable situation. 5)

4) If you take into account the fact that the amount of sets Floatzel can run is to the point where you could be sacking something if you guess incorrectly, or the fact that Taunt/Switcheroo shuts down/cripples the majority of Floatzel checks bar maybe Gourgeist-Super, Silvally-Water, and bulky Swanna. I think I already touched upon the main issue with Gourgeist-Super (the fact that it cannot at all deal with LO/Specs Ice Beam), but bulky Swanna is threatened by a possible Hidden Power Electric tech. Beyond that, bulky Swanna sacrifices its nice max Speed tier of 324, or power, for the sake of checking Floatzel. Thunderbolt Silvally-Water is the one true defensive Floatzel counter, the Seaking to Floatzel's metaphorical Frostom.

Calcs for WaterVally

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Water: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Water: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

^look at this

+2 252 Atk Floatzel All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Silvally-Water: 224-264 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Floatzel All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Silvally-Water: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Silvally-Water Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 214-252 (68.8 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While these calcs definitely show Silvally-Water can handle Floatzel (also cannot be Switcheroo'd), this is negating the fact that Silvally-Water has no recovery outside of Rest (which is like, why would you sacrifice STAB or the compression Defog can provide?). This is where I concede to you that yes, chip definitely helps Floatzel, but realistically, Stealth Rock is the only essential that Floatzel needs to deal with its one true defensive counter in theory.

Another huge issue with your point here is not every team archetype wants to run a revenge killer. Stall does not run Electivire/Zebstrika/Scarf [insert super-effective type-advantaged offensive Floatzel check] so I generally cannot identify with this statement. So, by this train of logic, one can argue Floatzel invalidates stall to some degree, as stall cannot revenge kill Floatzel. Balance is also pressed for a defensive counter/check (at this point in the meta I'd slap on Silvally-Water because Floatzel), but to a lesser degree obviously.

If "the centralization of Floatzel in the metagame is important but not on the level of bringing unviable mons as it was in the past", then why are Frillish and Slowpoke being considered as possible solutions to the Floatzel problem? (Sidenote: I have yet to see either but I know others have claimed to have much success with them. s/o Diagnostic) While Gourgeist-Super, Silvally-Water, Mareanie, Pyukumuku, and Swanna definitely are great Pokemon in their own ways, to attribute their success solely to their power is incorrect. I doubt Silvally-Water would be THE Silvally in a Floatzel-less meta, or that Mareanie would be forced to run Sludge Bomb to deal with a Choice item being Switcheroo'd onto it, or that Pyukumuku would be forced to run Z-Move to not have to deal with Switcheroo/get a one-time Taunt bypass. I think by this point in this post, I've proved that Floatzel definitely contributes to the defensive metagame being so pressured (another point for another post for another day and not at 2 AM).

5) "Moreover, if you play the wrong set against one of these counters, floatzel becomes useless as long as these mons are on the ground. That was never the case for Stoutland (whatever the opponent had, it was severely crippled) and almost never for Frosttom, except if you run unviable mons beside the fridge match up, such as Chinchou/Seaking"

I think something you neglect in this part, mostly for the point of Frostom as an S-rank who had no "normally viable" checks/counters, is the AMOUNT of Frostom checks/counters that were agreed upon by the community as solid Frostom checks/counters. While I would hate to overhype, Groundium-Z Smack Down Probopass, Gothitelle (one of the main reasons it got ranked was that a Mago Berry + Recycle set could tank Icium-Z), and Grumpig come to mind, beyond Seaking. Something to note: this is where another parallel of Frostom/Floatzel comes into play. A handful of their checks have uses beyond checking [x]. During Frostom meta, Grumpig was also used to check Fire-types such as Monferno, in addition to being a bulky special wall. Gothitelle pressured Defoggers via Competitive, making it a better Grumpig for Mareanie spikestack, but worse in most other scenarios. Groundium-Z Smack Down Probopass was a Bronzor lure. I won't touch on Stoutland as that is a totally different case, but I will concede that Stoutland ran through its "checks" (see above).

"too much support to be as splashable as it would like to be. It needs the opposite team chipped by its teammate to be in a comfortable situation"

f l o a t z e l i s n o t s p l a s h a b l e l o l b u t t h i s i s h i l a r i o u s s o r r y d i a g n o s t i c

t h i s i s s e m i s t a l l b t w i a m n o t a h y p o c r i t e

(I've been holding onto those for a long time was going to make a Floette VR post but stay tuned for that folks.)

What is my conclusion to that ? Floatzel is without a doubt an excellent Pokémon which is arguably the best one in the tier. But does the best mon in the tier always deserve the S rank ? It centralizes a lot the teambuilding, making Pokémon like Electivire Scarf/Silvally-Water/Gourgeist-Super very good but again, they are staple mons even without the presence of floatzel. If you ask me "What is the best Pokémon in ZU right now ?" I will probably answer Floatzel, but Komala isn't far behind, and other mons aren't far from komala either. Floatzel isn't as much the symbol of the ZU in terms of pressure, splashability and centralization as previous S ranks were. That's why I think the S rank right now doesnt have an obvious sense to exist and it would be more accurate to send Floatzel in the A+ rank. 6)

6) The main problem I seem to have with this post is its lack of evidence. If Floatzel centralizes teambuilding to the degree it does, which we have hopefully established is at least true for stall and balance, then how is it not worthy of S-rank? If Floatzel is the best 'mon in the tier (according to you, though I hold the belief that Komala is the best Pokemon in the tier), and is slightly ahead of Komala, then why is it not deserving of S-rank?

It is now 4:30 in the morning.