Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

[Apagogie]

Good post mate, I will only answer to some points where there is an issue of misunderstanding :

1) About the special set of Floatzel, your comparaison there is a bit problematic. Frosttom didnt need to run a different set to pass stuff like Grumpig, it could only Volt switch on it and send a mon which threats its countr. It was always true except if you play unviable mon outside of Frosttom (basically Seaking/Chinchou). If you play BU Floatzel, this mon is walled as long as the opposite counter is on the ground. That's a big difference which is very important, Floatzel can pass your own counter but only in bringing a different set which is less flexible than the traditionnal Physical one. And again, Floatzel isn't the only mon in ZU which is in this position, Pokémon such as Pinsir, Electivire, Komala,... doesnt have real true counters according to their set.

2) Agree with you.

3) Here, you totally misundertood my point so I'm going to explain it again.

I've never said that these niche mons were the perfect true counters to Frosttom and Stoutland. I said these niche mons were a lot used only due to the presence of the fridge and the dog. You can always talk about the efficiency of these mons in countering/checking them (and i can be agree with you about that but just not the subject here), the problem is to use in large quantities only niche mons to counter a threat.

We lack of good stats because I dont think there is someone which made the usage in tournaments and the ladder is pretty bad. I will use only the usage stats of the september month of the ladder because it was a month with a suspect ladder so there were more people who play it and more good players than usually. I'm totally aware that it is not perfect stats but we dont have unfortunately better numbers.

What you can notice it's the usage of mons which are just correct or even bad outside of Stoutland. You can notice Avalugg is ZU with these stats, Dusclops too, Mawile as well, Tangela is pretty high, Hippopotas is very high for a lol reason, etc etc. Of course these mons aren't perfect Stoutland counters but there are used simply because Stoutland existed and if Stoutland wasn't here, they wouldn't have eexisted

It's the same but to a lesser extend with Frosttom with stuff like Seaking, Chinchou or even sometimes Color Change Kecleon which were used to switch only for Frosttom.

And the most important thing, I didnt say that to compare the degree of brokeness of any mons but to point the difference in the centralization between Floatzel and what an usual S rank does.
We often heard that Floatzel is overcentralizing and it's one of these arguments to keep Floatzel S rank. But that's not a really fair point, the mons which are usually used to check it are totally viable even outside of Floatzel's match up. Gourgeist-Super will be anyway used even without Floatzel, same for Silvally-Water, Swanna or Mareanie because Combusken or Monferno both exist. Electivire or Zebstrika are great mons even if you dont face Floatzel. What I wanted to show, it was NOT a debate about does Seaking / Carbink were true counters to Frosttom / Stoutland (it's a non sense, it's not the subject) but that the degree of centralization of Floatzel is nothing comparable with what a real centralization is, as we have seen before.

You talked about Frilish and Slowpok to counter Floatzel but lets be serious, these mons aren't used like Seaking was, like Dusclops was. I played Frilish/Lampent to counter Monferno / Combusken when i didnt want to play Mareanie, i could also play Slowpoke, but it's not that which makes mons S worthy. Except if we see a peak of use of frilish in the futur, it's just a meme.

4) I dont understand pretty well the subject of the fourth point so I will try to answer in the best way I can

Forget the fact that the amount of sets Floatzel can run is to the point where you could be sacking something if you guess incorrectly, or the fact that Taunt/Switcheroo shuts down/cripples the majority of Floatzel checks bar maybe Gourgeist-Super, Silvally-Water, and bulky Swanna. I think I already touched upon the main issue with Gourgeist-Super (the fact that it cannot at all deal with LO/Specs Ice Beam), but bulky Swanna is threatened by a possible Hidden Power Electric tech.

Floatzel cannot be Taunt / Switcheroo / Physical Bulk Up Taunt / Hidden power Electric at the same time in the same set. You forget that if you play BulkUp Floatzel, you are totally walled by Gourgeist-Super, Mareanie, some Swanna's sets, etc. If you choose to play a different set to be able to pass them (such as special Floatzel), the opponent can just check with a middle play (muk, aboma, whatever vally). Just a move is enough to see the set. And again, the special set relys far more on prediction than the physical one and lack of power without, that's why it is a bit less played.

Thunderbolt Silvally-Water is the one true defensive Floatzel counter, the Seaking to Floatzel's metaphorical Frostom.

Silvally-Water was a viable mon even before Floatzel. It has always been in the A rank (A- before Floatzel came iirc). Thunderbolt has always been played due to Mareanie. Now that Frosttom is gone, Seaking is somewhere betwen C- and Unranked. Silvally-Water isn't at all the Seaking of Frosttom, Vally-W has always been excellent.

While these calcs definitely show Silvally-Water can handle Floatzel (also cannot be Switcheroo'd), this is negating the fact that Silvally-Water has no recovery outside of Rest (which is like, why would you sacrifice STAB or the compression Defog can provide?).

Komala Wish + Silvally Water is a great core... And not only due to Floatzel by the way. Wish + a Vally has always been good but it was only played in some stall (which wasn't the best playstyle few month ago) due to how passive Licky was. Komala is a better wish passer Sure, it's less easy than the classic Leftovers + recover but if you lack of staying power, it's a good option.

Another huge issue with your point here is not every team archetype wants to run a revenge killer. Stall does not run Electivire/Zebstrika/Scarf [insert super-effective type-advantaged offensive Floatzel check] so I generally cannot identify with this statement. So, by this train of logic, one can argue Floatzel invalidates stall to some degree, as stall cannot revenge kill Floatzel.

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 114-136 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I guess Floatzel can Switcheroo... But without the choice specs what does it too exactly against stall ? And Pyukumuku runs usually Z-Toxic on stall (and not only due to Floatzel by the way, just to deal with general taunt users such as Vigoroth, Simipour, Simisear, etc).

While Gourgeist-Super, Silvally-Water, Mareanie, Pyukumuku, and Swanna definitely are great Pokemon in their own ways, to attribute their success solely to their power is incorrect. I doubt Silvally-Water would be THE Silvally in a Floatzel-less meta, or that Mareanie would be forced to run Sludge Bomb to deal with a Choice item being Switcheroo'd onto it, or that Pyukumuku would be forced to run Z-Move to not have to deal with Switcheroo/get a one-time Taunt bypass.

Silvally-Water has always been in the top three in the ZU meta and is the one which stays there during the longest time. Yeah, without Floatzel, it would be less used than currently but it would stay excellent. It's nothing comparable with Seaking which was B rank when Frosttom was there and at the moment at the limit to be Unranked. Mareanie forced to run Sludge Bomb it's like Floatzel forced to run Hidden Power Electric to pass Swanna, the meta adapts to the new threats without it's a sign of an intensive centralization. Z-Toxic Pyukumuku has always been a set in stall teams to avoid to be 6-0 by Taunt Vigoroth / Simipour / Simisear. You exaggerate the influence that Floatzel really exerces on the meta.
And again, all these mons would be used even without Floatzel because you need them against Combusken or Monferno.

I think something you neglect in this part, mostly for the point of Frostom as an S-rank who had no "normally viable" checks/counters, is the AMOUNT of Frostom checks/counters that were agreed upon by the community as solid Frostom checks/counters. While I would hate to overhype, Groundium-Z Smack Down Probopass, Gothitelle (one of the main reasons it got ranked was that a Mago Berry + Recycle set could tank Icium-Z), and Grumpig come to mind, beyond Seaking. Something to note: this is where another parallel of Frostom/Floatzel comes into play. A handful of their checks have uses beyond checking [x]. During Frostom meta, Grumpig was also used to check Fire-types such as Monferno, in addition to being a bulky special wall. Gothitelle pressured Defoggers via Competitive, making it a better Grumpig for Mareanie spikestack, but worse in most other scenarios. Groundium-Z Smack Down Probopass was a Bronzor lure. I won't touch on Stoutland as that is a totally different case, but I will concede that Stoutland ran through its "checks" (see above).

The problem with Frosttom was its ability to Volt Switch on this amount of checks/Counters. If the opponent had Grumpig, you could send it on Frosttom but the only thing which happens is you lose 25% of your life on Volt Switch and then you lose the Momentum because the opponent brings a solid mon which threats your frosttom's switch in. That's why an electric immunity was mandatory but the problem was that the majority of electric immunity was severely hurt by Blizzard. That's why Seaking was so popular. Again, the situation is different with Floatzel. If you play Taunt Bulk Up, as long as there is a Mareanie or a Gourgeist in the opposite team, your Floatzel cannot do anything. You cannot take the Momentum with it, you cannot weaken the opponent.
I dont know why you're talking about Gothitelle because she wasn't played. I dont think she has a large use in tournaments either. If you have informations about this, dont hesitate to send me links because i dont understand well why she comes here.
I dont understand well either why you're talking about Probopass because it arrived in the same time than Stoutland so it's hard to say if it was used only due to Frosttom or due to Stoutland. Anyway, one thing is sure now, it's not used anymore.


I hope I was clear this time. Thank you for your answer.

 

[LordHelix]

Something to remember abt float that unlike almost every S tier, floatzel has ZERO defensive utility since it gets 2hkod from any neutral hit. Frost/stout have good bulk, PUs s tier has good bulk, so is true for others

Ok moving on to my noms

So i peaked at top 35 using a nice Spritzee balance team (im sure u all seen it before) and i feel its a viable pick so ill nom it

Unranked -> C-

Lets go over spritzees qualities real quick
Its a fairy type with 78/60/65 defenses which is immune to taunt and encore and learns wish + heal bell.

Now u ask why spritzee over lickilicki? Lack of fighting weakness, In a metagame where the two biggest metagame threats carry fighting coverage(specs floatzel and electivire) having a wish passer that can switch into them safely is huge unlike the two other wish passers

Im not gonna talk much abt what it does because it functions almost identically to licki i.e a great wish passer/cleric, special wall, pivot..etc
The differences is being able to switch to fighting moves but not be able to absorb knock offs

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-836122964
Spritzee keeps sandslash healthy so i dont lose to electivire and kecleon

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-828664230
I like this game as it showcases how it can easily pivot on silvally fighting and how it keeps sandslash/silvally dark healthy to annoy the opponent

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-830624990
Spritzee couldve took on floatzel had mareanie died

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-824178107
Spritzee keeps my silvally dark healthy the entire game for me to sd and win the game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-837200166
Helps me not autolose to licki+pyuku core

Ill nom it for C- for now though since being eviolite reliant hurts it, although its not the end of the world thanks to being easy to patch up with a silvally or sandslash

Quick other noms:
Simisear B+ --> A-
Easily the best FIRE* type, the nasty plot/fireblast/focusblast and either hpice/taunt is super nasty. Loves gourgeist, bronzor, altaria being everywhere right now

Floatzel S --> A+
Overrated, even if it does switcheroo its hard counters such as mareanie u still neutralised the threat, since now itll hit weak as shit. The most splashable scarfer in Electivire being at 40% usage doesnt help either

Dugtrio-A B+ --> B
Floatzel, Gourgeist and Bronzor being everywhere really hurts it, as well as scarf eq evire which bypasses its good speed tier. Its not even a good offensive normal check since komala eqs it to dust

the true floatzel counter btw (half memeing)

• Has 78/62 special bulk with evio
• Focus blast does nothing, its light so low kick does nothing too
• Cannot be Swithcheroo'd cause of Sticky Hold
• Has Clear Smog to prevent set up

It so bulky it can do this
252 SpA Silvally-Water Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Shellos: 102-122 (28.6 - 34.2%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO

 

[a fruitshop owner]

Furfrou: Usually Useless -> Unranked
We have Komala now. (get the reference?) If you want a CB Normal type, you use that.
As for stall, we have MUCH better walls, like Pyukumuku, Avalugg, Supergeist, and more.
If you get the reference, message it to me and if you're right you'll score a follower.

I am going to have to disagree with you here. I believe Furfrou still has viability in the meta. It can still fill multiple roles on a team such as a toxic stall sweeper, pivot, and choice band user. You mentioned Komala as totally replacing it and yes Komala does have better move pool and base attack, but it is considerably slower than Furfrou. Furfrou not to mention has one of the best abilities in the game in my opinion with Furcoat, doubling its defensive stat. To summarize Furfrou's niche in the meta at the moment is it can fast relatively reliable pivot but that can catch people off guard with considerable bulk in both defense and special defense. Lastly, Furfrou does have multiple intimidating forms such as Furfrou-Pharaoh, Furfrou-Kabuki, and Furfrou-Debutante just to name a few.

replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-824295778
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-824301948

 

[Tack]

In my opinion, Seaking should be Unranked during the next update of the vr.

insert meme about one liners here

Ok so this mon was terrible in frost meta, used as a counter that specs frost could 2hko and pretty much doing nothing else of worth on a team, but it was basically forced on balance so you didn't get completely bopped by subsplit frost, and now that frost is up to pu the only mon seaking checks that's been common in play that i've seen is Zebstrika, which is mediocre at best right now, and i haven't seen a single seaking, or a single team what would benefit from a seaking set of any kind since frost left. this mon was terrible then, and now its only reason for having any usage here is gone. Unrank Seaking

 

[Puer Abutens]

Regigigas -> C-/C
Currently I'm trying the sample Stallbreaker Regigigas set and I noticed that its very usable at this role, even more with Stall getting better and better, it beats basically any stall mons outside Silvally formes (something that stops it from be better), everything that justifies and doesn't justifies Regigigas rising was already said in previous posts from Poke2950 (like Knock Off and the lack of recovery)

 

[JdRDMS]

Onix: C -> Unranked
What does this do? Sun is completely dead, and if you want to use an offensive Rock-type, we have Golem. Even Rockvally or Alolem are probably better options. It also hates the shifts. Floatzel destroys it, Gourgeist-Super walls it and destroys it if its running Seed Bomb. Seriously, this thing is completely worthless now.

As for Regigigas, I agree with a rise. Though honestly I think it should be C+ or B-, maybe even B. While I've never used it, I can see it being devastating for Stall. Regigigas: Usually Useless -> C+/B-/B

Seaking: C -> Unranked: Agree
While I'd be fine with Usually Useless as well, yeah, this thing is pretty worthless. Fridge leaving hurts it, even tho it apparently wasn't that good of a check for it to begin with (idk I've never used it). It just doesn't really check anything except Zebstrika now, and apparently that's just okay right now. Send this thing to UU or UR.

Floatzel: S -> A+: Disagree
While it is frail, its super versatile, strong, and fast. I think it should stay S.

Lampent: Usually Useless -> Unranked
We have Floatzel, we have Swanna, we have Altaria. Trick Room isn't really good anymore. Unrank.

Weepinbell: Usually Useless -> Unranked: Agree
Sun is dead.

 

[BARABOY]

Seaking: C -> Unranked: Disagree
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. While it's very niche, it still does have a rare use. It has been mentioned that it can check Zebstrika, but it can also check scarf variants of Electivire. I think it should be moved to D rank since it has a very small niche, and can occasionally help.

Floatzel: S -> A+: Disagree
Floatzel may be weak defensively, but its offensive capabilities certainly make up for it. There are so many viable sets that it can use, like choice band and Z-bulk up. Its versatility and overall offensive prowess makes it the most dangerous and unpredictable threat in the tier.

 

[Dollainthewoods]

Marshtomp UR->C
Marshtomp @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
As a mon that has the second best typing in the game, a solid utility movepool, and great bulk, it's hard to see why Marshtomp is unranked. It is a reliable rocker and a solid mon. It beats almost all the A+ mons, and floatzel, and has an incredibly reliable defense stat. It also hard counters Electivire, who, from my understanding, is the second most used mon in the tier. At the very least marshtomp shouldn't be unranked, as it has a nice niche on stall teams, and in the small time I've returned to zu it has worked well on my team, and is much more deserving of the C rank than some other mons(looking at you onix)
Calcs:
0 Atk Marshtomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 260-308 (89 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Electivire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 74-88 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 95-113 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 142-169 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Marshtomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 151-178 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Komala Return vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 109-129 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Marshtomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Komala: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Golem Explosion vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 182-215 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-827303639
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-827297756
(Also S/O to Aleccat for being to goat of ZU and one of the most helpful people on the zu server)

 

[BARABOY]

Omanyte: Unranked -> C-
Omanyte is a good hazard setter, which while needing a good amount of support, can help secure a victory. Firstly, it has 35/100/55 defenses, the star of the show being the 100 base defense. While the low hp is definitely worrying, it still can survive multiple attacks with its amazing eviolite boosted defense.

Damage calcs

252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Omanyte: 84-100 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- 63.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Omanyte: 94-112 (34.3 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Omanyte: 102-120 (37.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Why would you use Omanyte over other entry hazard leads? It has two interesting niches; one is access to all three damaging entry hazards, being spikes, toxic spikes, and stealth rocks. It also has water stab to deal with a lot of the other hazard setting leads like Golem and Sandslash. Specifically it gets Scald, which can burn.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-827264294
Omanyte takes two attacks from Silvally and sets rocks.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-827269454
Omanyte sets rocks and 2 spikes, baiting defog and prepping Pawniard for a sweep.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-827239800
Omanyte sets rocks at the beginning of the match and a t-spike towards the end, chipping away at the opponents health, securing a victory.

Please give me feedback with my nomination, I'd love to hear it!

 

[JdRDMS]

Omanyte: Unranked -> C-: On the fence
I honestly don't know how to feel about this. Well, I guess I'll start with the pros.
Pro 1: It has access to all hazards.
Pro 2: It has good bulk, allowing it to survive super-effective attacks.
Pro 3: Its access to Scald, allowing it to beat Golem and Sandslash.
All of these are certainly true and are quite nice. Having all of the hazards and beating Golem is great, and it can survive almost all of the physical attacks the tier has, super effective or not. However...
Con 1: It only beats defensive Golem consistently.
Con 2: Its frail specially.
Con 3: It has no reliable way of healing itself.
Let's go over these one by one. First, its matchup with Golem. It can usually beat Defensive Golem with little issue.
0 SpA Omanyte Scald vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Golem: 304-364 (83.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
32 Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Omanyte: 126-150 (45.9 - 54.7%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
But then there's Weakness Policy Golem. For starters, WP Golem is faster. Also, if Omanyte doesn't get the burn on Scald, you might as well say good night.
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Omanyte: 164-194 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Omanyte: 326-386 (118.9 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Its second issue is its Special frailty.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 276-325 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Electivire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 330-393 (120.4 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 222-262 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 413-486 (150.7 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The third and final issue is its complete lack of recovery. It can't run a berry/leftovers as it needs Eviolite for Bulk, and you can't replace a move for Rest (its only healing move) because all four moves are essential to this set.
Overall, I don't think Omanyte should be C-, because of the flaws mentioned above. I think it should either be UR or UU.

 

[Absolute Infinity]

Omantye and Marshtomp are kind of interesting nfe pokemon that do have some useful characterics. Omantye competes with dual hazards Crustle and has to rely on toxic spikes and scald if it is to have a niche. It's physical bulk is nearly identical to Crustle's without considering leftovers, and Omantye is frailer on the special side. Scald off base 90 spa is very nice for a single attack, so I could somewhat see the set having some merit over crustle in a few situations, but I think Omanyte's weaknesses are overall probably too significant to rank it. Omantye is very weak to item removal, being worn down, and to special attacks.

calcs

0 SpA Silvally-Water Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 134-158 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO (that silvally ice must have been -spa)
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 276-325 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Electivire Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 156-186 (56.9 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Part of the problem with Omantye is that ZU currently has a lot of good ways to remove entry hazards, such as defog silvally-forms, altaria, swanna, and servine and rapid spin komala and sandslash. Defiant can punish defoggers, but pretty much all defoggers can threaten Pawniard and Purugly to some extent. Also, golem is faster than it no matter what, so I'm not sure what JdRDMS is talking about for it beating bulky golem.

Marshtomp on the other hand I could see in UU or C- due to its good bulk, typing, and ability to check electivire. Wish support for it can be provided by lickilicky or komala (omantye can use this too, shares their fighting weakness). Stab earthquake off 85 base attack combined with scald is pretty decent offenses for a defensive pokemon. That said it is very weak to item removal and being worn down, and doesn't have enough bulk to check really strong attackers like komala very well. I think some more replays and testing it out myself could convince me one way or another.

edit:
So I used Marstomp a bit, and it works alright for checking Electivire, Rapidash, and various other random things. I support it to C-, but beware that it doesn't beat curse muk very reliably because its earthquake isn't that strong.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-829399174
Marstomp prevents electivire from doing too much in this room tour finals match.

Used the same team for the other tour battles and for some ladder battles, but forgot to save replays.

 

[JdRDMS]

Munchlax: C+ -> At Least C
This thing is not worthy of C+ imo. Look at the rest of C+. Camerupt and Simisage are definitely better than this. Its completely outclassed by Muk as a Curse user. SLEEPY BOI and Viggy are way better defensive normal types. Drop it.

 

[Moron5]

It's been a bit since the S rank discussion was brought up and while it's still fresh in our heads, I agree with the sentiment that Floatzel does not need a rank for itself at the very least. Floatzel simply does not have the matchup consistency, splashability, and teambuilder impact as a mon say Rotom-Frost or Torterra in its prime. I'd go as far to say that Floatzel is not really even the best mon of the tier and is not representative of what the ZU metagame is.
There are few methods of solving this:
1) making another sub rank like S- (way too much complication and eventually just bound to remove it)
2) making the S rank bigger (a viable solution but often times, metagame trends can deceive us and might be in constant flux)
3) removing the S rank for now (at this current moment in time, no one mon stands out amongst the rest as a clear cut S rank. Later in the metagame it can be reintroduced)
3 is the most reasonable to incorporate as its been several weeks into the lifespan and have gotten a good grasp of what are the best teambuilding structures and what's broken and what's not (remember when we thought pyuku would break stall?).
That being said time for my noms:

Abomasnow
A => A+
While not having the splashability as most mons in the A+ rank, I think we've come to realize how stupidly strong (honestly lowkey broken) this is and without true/splashable defensive counterplay either. Specs is a menace and has the potential to just 6-0 balances without a hard resist, SD lures its specs counters, Scarf while has lost a little charm because Floatzel is underrated in just spamming fast blizzards and surprising and revenging foes, and LO EQ+Shard is just the icing off the cake being the best of both worlds. I think it and Komala are comparable in the fact that it has forced the metagame to either pack a hefty core or just have a overall "faster" team.

Swanna
A- => A (MIGHT be A+ but later on)
Union Caboche was right on this nom too but I think that physical is not the best set and actually this is:

Set and explanation

Swanna @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Big Pecks
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog

A few great things about this set:
+outspeeds base 95s which is key to beating leafeons, sawsbucks, etc.)
+Beats Floatzel 8+/10 times out of ten
+more consistently checks Combusken and non-tpunch Monferno than offensive
+checks random knock offs like Kecleon and Shiftry
+is not passive with Z hurricane as a nuke
+doesn't mind taking burn like physical does aka abuses Gourgeist

I've been literally just spamming this on every balance as a secondary defogger/primary defogger with offensive presence and doesn't make me resort to using traditional passive Floatzel checks that just get abused by the other top mons. Its consistency is just insane across most matchups and has no true offensive switch ins to steal momentum.

Chatot
A- => B (may be lower but I know someone's going to call me insane)
It's simply so unjustifiable in its current state with all the checks and counters being splashed onto a team without even considering the little bird (Probo,Muk,Bronzor,Lickylicky,Crustle,etc.) that you'll find more often than not just click u-turn over half the time. With its scarf role being nearly outclassed by Electivire due its utility wise (not laughably frail, can force out more foes, can click more than just one move for generalist damage), its other sets are not looking good at all with Nasty plot sets being hard stopped by stall and just generic normal resists/special walls and Specs just being very matchup dependent and just slow and awkward to utilize.

Bouffalant
B+ => B
Simply put, it's so hard to fit this mon over many of its more appealing options. Let's start with band: Sure its raw damage is better than Band Komala but slower and crucially is slower than Abomasnow and cannot touch Ghost at all nor pivots. Its defensive utility in sap sapper is nice but Band Granbull offers a stronger defensive utility its own typing in intimidate and its coverage outdoes Bouffalant on most fronts. Assault Vest is bad and has been bad long ass time. SubSD is kind of okay but stalls have been running things like roar Avalugg & spite rest pyuku to beat stuff like this and is mostly a deadweight against offense while mons like Pinsir can handle both more effectively at the same time.

Kadabra
A- => B+
Pure offense imo is dwindling and a one time use mon like Kadabra is harder to slot onto a team than ever nowadays. It fears just being hardwalled by stall, lacking either firepower (no LO) or any defensive utility (no sash) often sets it up being a deadweight matchup versus bulkier builds and its once amazing speed tier means a lot less when Floatzel is in the picture. Just does not hold up to the influence that the A rank currently stands for.

Silvally-Dragon
A- => A
This one might be controversial but I think is on par with Silvally-Water to just being an excellent hazard removing glue. Draco Meteor + Flamethrower deletes every rocker aside from Probopass + Bronzor (which you can trap with your own Probo by pivoting) and its amazing ability to soft check threats like Rapidash, Monferno, Zebstrika, and Tangela make this an underrated threat. Excellent in grabbing offensive momentum especially since all of its switch ins are passive.

 

[jklioe]

Hi all, major VR update!

S
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Floatzel S to A+
Komala A+ to S

So the main thing about the update is the changes made towards S rank. It's safe to say that we're split on the S rank and what sort of things might qualify there, as evidenced by Floatzel being one of the most controversial topics we've had in ZU VR to date. I may not be the best person to justify it since I didn't agree with Floatzel's drop, but the notion that its dominance is offset by its lack of splashability compared to other things, combined with adaptations made towards managing its threat level on average has been undeniably prevalent. Totally understandable positions. Despite its change, Floatzel still remains as one of the most offensively potent presences in the metagame and such attributes are still felt to this day. I do commend the builders out there for having been successful in adapting to Floatzel, at any rate.

On Komala, I will say that I was the one responsible for pushing this one in the first place. While this one wasn't really talked about prior, I truly believe that Komala sets the standard for set versatility and overall effectiveness in the tier regardless of the matchup and situation. It's the most "splashable" Pokemon in the tier as a result, while being one of the most offensively threatening. Furthermore, it has a level of role compression and support that almost nothing can compete with thanks to its many viable sets and utility options. While it is by no means flawless, this combination of huge teambuilding impact and overall high viability are what I believe meets the hallmark for a real S-rank Pokemon. Xayah, I hope you're proud of your favorite SLEEPY BOI! (Even if you disagree)

As for S rank in general, we're open to many directions moving forward, but for now, this is the course of action being taken. While there are few things out there with Rotom-F and Stoutland’s prowess, those metas are long gone, and I want to clarify that we shouldn’t perceive it as some “broken” rank just because that was a factor for both of them. In truth, any mon can qualify as long as they set the standard for sheer effectiveness and dominance and it does not need to correlate to being “broken” or unstoppable in the slightest. That said, any continuing S rank discussion is welcome (I can personally see a case for Golem, but only time will tell).

Rises
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Camerupt C+ to B-
Simisage C+ to B
Servine C+ to B
Silvally-Ground C+ to B-
Golem-A C+ to B-
Swoobat C+ to B-

Avalugg C to C+
Natu C to C+
Ampharos C to C+
Cacturne C to C+
Chimecho C to C+
Dugtrio C to B-
Trevenant C to C+
Vibrava C to C+

Politoed C- to C
Wigglytuff C- to C
Chinchou C- to C
Frogadier C- to C
Glaceon C- to C+
Krokorok C- to C
Lycanroc-Midnight C- to C+
Shiinotic C- to C
Silvally-Electric C- to C+
Wormadam-Trash C- to C

Marshtomp UR to UU
Mudbray UR to UU
Regigigas UU to B-
Corsola UR to C
Floette UR to C-
Frillish UR to C
Hypno UR to UU
Silvally-Ice UU to C-

The C-rank underwent an interesting road! You may have noticed more NFEs popping up, mostly because of niches surround them being brought to light. Regigigas moving up was a no-brainer, being the flavour of the month stallbreaker. Alolem Golem was one I've personally entertained, being a scary trapper that combines the role of the wallbreaker with CB, and it's worth considering since it has regular Golem's similar breaking potential and doesn't take up a Z-slot to deal with Bronzor, unlike Probopass. Camerupt is a super underrated wallbreaker under TR, and between that and its newly found Phys Def set it definitely benefits from Evire's prevalence. Swoobat is previously terrain-centric, but people have recently gotten it to do well under Screens Offense quite well. Floette is kawaii! Really odd but unique in how it checks special Floatzel reliably and is essentially a discount Clefairy in terms of support. Dugtrio-K is a mon I entertain a lot because of its great Speed tier, and Life Orb 3 attack functions really well in checking offensive while being surprisingly effective in pressuring defensive switch-ins with Toxic. Just a lot of cool niche options to appreciate here.

Drops
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Meowstic-F C+ to C
Sliggoo C+ to C
Togetic C+ to C-
Gumshoos C+ to C

Klang C to C-

Silvally-Bug C- to UU
Wartortle C- to UU

Lampent UU to UR
Weepingbell UU to UR

More or less just a lot of things with notable niches before falling off now. Gumshoos heavily competes for a slot with other prominent offensive Normal-types despite it being scary on paper, Togetic being limited to being a defogger that is less bothered by Bronzor and Probopass than other defensive Defoggers, and stuff like Weepingbell no longer having a relevant niche due to changes in meta trends (Tspikes absorption being far less useful, among other things). Thanks for reading, and as always feel free to read the reasonings!

 

[5gen]

I've got some nominations here I feel are overdue.

Gourgeist-XL A to A+
Gourgeist-XL has cemented itself as the premier physical wall in the tier. It has become a staple at checking top threats in the tier; so much so that it forces premier offensive Pokemon such as Komala, Scarf Electivire, and Floatzel to adapt to it. Furthermore, Gourgeist-XL pairs extremely well with Pokemon such as Golem, Silvally-Water, Komala, Lickilicky, and Crustle, so it can also form effective defensive backbones for balance and more defensive styles. The major downsides to Gourgeist-XL are its passiveness, vulnerability to status, and its weakness to strong special coverage. However, Gourgeist-XL is able to force many switches by virtue of WoW+Leech Seed, and as previously stated, pairs very well with pivots, special walls, and status absorbers alike.

Probopass A to B+ or B
Probopass is a Pokemon whose niches have become less desirable in the current meta, and I'd go as far to say that it's a mediocre pick for most builds. While Probopass functions as a rocker, pivot, and trapper or tank all in one, it often fails to perform. More specifically, Probopass is just suscpetible to many Pokemon such as Pinsir, Floatzel, Golem, and Silvally-Fighting, and as a result is forced out rather easily. In addition, Golem-A is simply the superior pick as a Magnet Pull trapper due to its breaking power, Speed, and it not wasting a Z-move in order to pull off its niche. Lastly, the Pokemon Probopass is supposed to check such as Muk, Abomasnow, and Beheeyem to name a few, are better checked by other rockers such as Golem and Bronzor.

Shiftry A- to A
Shiftry rising to A is a pretty straightforward nomination imo. In a nutshell, Shiftry thrives in the current meta due to its offensive capabilities and even the defensive utility it brings to teams. Its able to break through or wear down balance to stall rather freely because of STAB Knock Off, Sucker Punch and Scarf respectively help it put in work vs offense, and both its set/coverage options give Shiftry a high degree of versatility. For example, Leaf Storm or Defog are typically used as the 4th on the LO set, but I've even found success with Synthesis since Shiftry can soft check things like Floatzel or Scarf Electivire and just mitigate LO recoil.

Swanna A- to A or A+
Here is another Pokemon who just flourishes in the current meta. A- undersells Swanna completely. Its ability to act as a sweeper with Z-Rain Dance or Z-Mirror Move, as well as the utility with Flyinium Z Defog/Roost/Hurricane/Scald simply give Swanna an edge as an offensive Pokemon. Personally I'm more convinced of A, but I can definitely see how it can fit in A+ based on its ability to rip through balance or offense based on its set.

There are other Pokemon in the A and B ranks that I feel should move around, which I might make a post about another time. Anyway, I'll just leave you guys with some possible nominations.

Early thoughts

A+ to A

A- to A

A- to B+

A- to B+

B to B+ or A-

B to B+

B to B-

 

[Absolute Infinity]

I completely agree with Swanna to A+, Shiftry to A, and Probopass to lower.

Swanna is so fantastic at so many things from support to breaking to sweeping to revenge KOing. I have used a ton of different special and physical Swanna sets and none have disappointed me. It is one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier and is actually east to fit onto a variety of team styles due to its useful resistances and great versatility. Its biggest flaw is probably its somewhat mediocre immediate power, but its still the hardest hitting pokemon in the tier that is faster than Silvally and Electivire aside from Rapidash (which has far worse coverage and 4 MSSS).

Shiftry has the strongest knock off in the tier and has lots of dangerous tools such as sucker punch and swords dance to go with knock off. I used a Choice Band set very aggressively in g1 of fall seasonal winners finals and it certainly did not disappoint. Its biggest weakness is probably faster Silvally with U-turn, but honestly without that Shiftry might actually be too much for ZU to handle.

Probopass's typing leaves it with a lot of unfortunate weaknesses and not a ton of usefulness in the tier. I think that the trapping set is very poor at its job since it can fail to trap Bronzor with bad Psywave rolls. I think that simple bulky Stealth Rock sets with Sturdy are better, especially if paired up with pokemon that appreciate its slow Volt Switches, but still overall struggle compared to other rockers.

I originally nominated Metang from B+ to B-, so I definitely agree with B to B-. There really just isn't much of a reason to use it over Bronzor. Bronzor's ground immunity is so critical for it to function effectively and lets it beat pokemon like Golem, Dugrtio-Alola, Dragon Dance Altaria, Earthquake Abomasnow, and Gabite. Psywave is also honestly more threatening most of the time than Meteor Mash from Metang's poor 75 base attack. Metang's only real niches are being slightly tougher to trap for Alolan-Golem and Probopass due to the ability to use Earthquake and ability to trap a handful of psychic types with Pursuit.


One more thing that is more a question than a nomination, but how exactly is the viability of the various Silvally-Forms handled? I ask because I think that if one looked at the viability of them all as a whole, they would be at or near S-rank levels of viability. Nearly every team benefits from using some sort of Silvally-Form due to their unpredictability, great bulk, good speed, and amazing movepool. Silvally is the best hazard remover in the tier, generally even better than Komala who would prefer to avoid running Rapid Spin. Silvally is great for switching into attacks that would otherwise seem to be impossible to resist on one's team due to its hidden typing until it is sent out. Silvally is also very threatening offensively due to its amazing special movepool, access to swords dance and difficult to resist Multiattacks, and access to the switching moves U-turn and Parting Shot. It just seems to me that this idea that Silvally as a whole is extremely effective in ZU and that most teams would benefit from one Form or another should perhaps somehow be communicated more clearly on the VR.

 

[JdRDMS]

I completely agree with Swanna to A+, Shiftry to A, and Probopass to lower.

Swanna is so fantastic at so many things from support to breaking to sweeping to revenge KOing. I have used a ton of different special and physical Swanna sets and none have disappointed me. It is one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier and is actually east to fit onto a variety of team styles due to its useful resistances and great versatility. Its biggest flaw is probably its somewhat mediocre immediate power, but its still the hardest hitting pokemon in the tier that is faster than Silvally and Electivire aside from Rapidash (which has far worse coverage and 4 MSSS).

Shiftry has the strongest knock off in the tier and has lots of dangerous tools such as sucker punch and swords dance to go with knock off. I used a Choice Band set very aggressively in g1 of fall seasonal winners finals and it certainly did not disappoint. Its biggest weakness is probably faster Silvally with U-turn, but honestly without that Shiftry might actually be too much for ZU to handle.

Probopass's typing leaves it with a lot of unfortunate weaknesses and not a ton of usefulness in the tier. I think that the trapping set is very poor at its job since it can fail to trap Bronzor with bad Psywave rolls. I think that simple bulky Stealth Rock sets with Sturdy are better, especially if paired up with pokemon that appreciate its slow Volt Switches, but still overall struggle compared to other rockers.

I originally nominated Metang from B+ to B-, so I definitely agree with B to B-. There really just isn't much of a reason to use it over Bronzor. Bronzor's ground immunity is so critical for it to function effectively and lets it beat pokemon like Golem, Dugrtio-Alola, Dragon Dance Altaria, Earthquake Abomasnow, and Gabite. Psywave is also honestly more threatening most of the time than Meteor Mash from Metang's poor 75 base attack. Metang's only real niches are being slightly tougher to trap for Alolan-Golem and Probopass due to the ability to use Earthquake and ability to trap a handful of psychic types with Pursuit.


One more thing that is more a question than a nomination, but how exactly is the viability of the various Silvally-Forms handled? I ask because I think that if one looked at the viability of them all as a whole, they would be at or near S-rank levels of viability. Nearly every team benefits from using some sort of Silvally-Form due to their unpredictability, great bulk, good speed, and amazing movepool. Silvally is the best hazard remover in the tier, generally even better than Komala who would prefer to avoid running Rapid Spin. Silvally is great for switching into attacks that would otherwise seem to be impossible to resist on one's team due to its hidden typing until it is sent out. Silvally is also very threatening offensively due to its amazing special movepool, access to swords dance and difficult to resist Multiattacks, and access to the switching moves U-turn and Parting Shot. It just seems to me that this idea that Silvally as a whole is extremely effective in ZU and that most teams would benefit from one Form or another should perhaps somehow be communicated more clearly on the VR.

The last part is probably because there is a very clear viability difference between the various forms (Flying (trash) and Durgon (really good) for example).

After thinking about it, yeah Metang could probably drop to B- or maybe even C+. Its just outclassed by Bronzor in anything it does. Sure Metang can run attacking moves, but its shockingly weak. The other things Metang does are done just as well or better by Bronzor.

 

[5gen]

One more thing that is more a question than a nomination, but how exactly is the viability of the various Silvally-Forms handled? I ask because I think that if one looked at the viability of them all as a whole, they would be at or near S-rank levels of viability. Nearly every team benefits from using some sort of Silvally-Form due to their unpredictability, great bulk, good speed, and amazing movepool. Silvally is the best hazard remover in the tier, generally even better than Komala who would prefer to avoid running Rapid Spin. Silvally is great for switching into attacks that would otherwise seem to be impossible to resist on one's team due to its hidden typing until it is sent out. Silvally is also very threatening offensively due to its amazing special movepool, access to swords dance and difficult to resist Multiattacks, and access to the switching moves U-turn and Parting Shot. It just seems to me that this idea that Silvally as a whole is extremely effective in ZU and that most teams would benefit from one Form or another should perhaps somehow be communicated more clearly on the VR.

Opportunity cost is emphasized when ranking Silvally formes (similarly to ranking Gourgeist formes). Hence, Silvally formes are analyzed both on their niche in the meta, and how they compare to one another. It wouldn't really make sense to look at Silvally as a whole when ranking it for a few reasons. Firstly, each Silvally forme's niche varies based on its typing because of their respective defensive utility, STAB move pools, and offensive prowess. Secondly, Silvally formes being unpredictable at team preview/before they're sent out actually rewards more skillful and knowledgeable players imo. This is because you can analyze a team's composition and how your opponent plays to make an educated guess at what the Silvally forme turns out to be. Lastly, every Silvally forme is currently ranked on the VR, with eight of them being in the A and B ranks, so it'd be difficult to further communicate its effectiveness without coming off as special treatment.

 

[Apagogie]

Time to do nominations :

Granbull B+ -> B
Granbull is one of these forgotten mon in ZU. Despite the fact that it gets on paper great things such as a nice fairy type and a great ability, it doesnt success to find its place in the meta. Its choice band set which is arguably its best set currently isn't bad by any means but has not a lot of reason to be played. We have a lot of good breakers in ZU, Komala CB is the more obvious one but Toucannon, Golem-Alola or Beheyeem are as effective as Granbull and far safer thanks to the speed, utility or better flexibility without the choice locked item In fact, the teams where Granbull brings something special are quite limited, generally to have a check to Shiftry or stuff like that. It's not even a good Knock Off absorber because it relys too much on its item to do damages. And to finish that, the meta is very offensive right now and a strong low breaker sounds unnecessary, especially when you have better options to threat defensive builds like Shiftry or Komala. It explains why it is little played and struggles to find its place in tournaments.

I didnt talk much about the defensive set but it has always been average due to the lack of viable recovery.

Oricorio B+ -> B-
The departure of Lurantis and the arrival of new Monferno checks was a huge pain for the viability of Oricorio-Baille in the meta. It was ranked B+ tentatively to see how it will adapt to the Floatzel's meta. Weeks are passed now and it has quite failed to find its place. This mon is first of all not played anymore, it doesnt bring a lot of utility right now and is demading in support. Its scarf set which was its more common set is now almost gabarage since it is unreliable, it is unable to RK Floatzel without having to click Hurricane, it's outspeed by Electivire scarf which can properly volt switch on its face and you generally prefere to dont use as pivot a mon which is x4 weak to SR.
It's Calm Mind set is okay but being RK by electric and water types currently is really the last thing you need for a set up sweeper, especially when they are faster than you. Its best set at this moment, the Specs one, is indeed threaten but less effective than in previous meta due to the amount of fire resists by teams and the fact that, since Swanna is arrived, the flying resists are almost mandatory now while they were unconventionnal in the past.

Oricorio Pom-Pom, even with a less good offensive coverage, doesnt suffer from the majority of these things. Its scarf set is correct, able to threat Floatzel, doesnt need too much support. It's Calm Mind set is far more effective because difficult to RK and it offers a no-outclassed stallbreaker set which, even if it is not needed currently, is enjoyable against bulkier teams. I think these mons should be swapped.

Shuckle B+ -> Lower
Remove Stealth Rock/Sticky Web haven't been as easy as today. I dont find webs really successful with the amount of good offensive spinners/defogers we have. Punish Defog/Spin is quite difficult when the opposite mon is Swanna or Komala. Also webs team are too much match up relevant to work successfully. Correct me if I'm wrong but i haven't seen a webs team to be used at high level in a tournaent recently. It's simply too much unreliable. Drop Shuckle somewhere close to B-.

Leafeon B -> A-
Why it is so low ? I wasn't agree with the drop which was a speculation about how altaria/gourgeist-super/swanna will affect its viability. Sure, they are important factors but in practise this meta is far more enjoyable for grass types than in the past, defensively and offensively. Threat golem and Pyuku, dont lose against Electivire and pressure water types are valuable things. Leafeon has the opportunity over other grass types to dont be a one-dimensionnal mon and fully beneficts for its defensive and offensive abilities. Every sets (Scarf, Z-celebrate, Substitute, SD + 3 Attacks, SD Synthesis) have their own utility and all of them are very good in the current meta. I've played a lot the SD + Synthesis lately, have in a single slot a switch in a set up Sweeper, a recovey mon, Knock off a switch in to golem and most of the time to electivire helps a lot the teambuilding. None other mons can do that in a single slot. When I see Sawsbuck in B+ (it should drop btw), Leafeon deserves at least the A- rank.

Mawile B- -> B+
I wont explain much here because I already did that in a precedent post. Mawile deserves a higher spot due to its ability to deal with a good amount of threats difficult to switch into such as Shiftry/Kecleon/Leafeon/Regigigas. Probopass isn't played anymore (a gabarage mon tbh) and Golem-Alola, even if hyped lately, isn't too played either.


Nominations of other people i'm agree with :

Chatot A- -> B

Kadabra A- -> B+

Gourgeist-S A -> A+

Probopass A -> B

Shiftry A- -> A

Swanna A- -> A+

 

[JdRDMS]

Onix: C- -> UR (MAYBE UU)
I still don't see how this is ranked. This does absolutely nothing of value in the meta. Sun and Sand are dead, and it hates a lot of the new shifts, like Floatzel and Gourgeist-Super. Definitely not worthy of C-.

Torkoal: C -> UU/UR
Is this really still worthy of C? It has a Speed stat of 20. TWENTY! Shell Smash is doing jack squat to help it. Its actual stat is 152 with 252 EVs and Nature. That is just sad. Floatzel is everywhere (| 2 | Floatzel | 17.40305% |, from 2018-11), making it incredibly hard for it to do anything. Stealth Rock? We have Bronzor, Golem, Dugtrio, and more, and all of these have actual use, unlike Torcrap. Just don't use it. There's nothing it can do that's valuable that isn't done better by something else. Send it to D or UR.

Silvally-Flying: Usually Useless -> Unranked
This thing is pretty worthless, and that's mainly because it's the definition of outclassed. Swanna and Altaria are both really good Flying-types in this tier, and if you run Flyingvally, then you can't run the other, much better Silvally-formes. In addition being incredibly outclassed, the meta right now isn't nice to it either. Stealth Rock is very common in this meta, so without hazard removal support, its losing a quarter of its health just from switching in. Gone are the days where 317 is a really good speed stat. Scarf Electivire is very common, and it always outspeeds Flyingvally is a guaranteed outspeed. Alolem gaining viability is bad for Flyingvally, because the latter can't deal with the former outside of switching out, and Golem is already very viable as well. There are even multiple more examples that I haven't listed here. Between being hopelessly outclassed and the meta not being friendly toward it at all, Silvally-Flying just doesn't deserve a rank anymore in my opinion.

 

[BloodAce]

Quick nominations before the next slate:

B+-> B- SubToxic isn't quite as effective as it used to be due Bronzor's prevalance in the current meta, which is a free switch-in to every set that isnt Z-Sucker Punch. Additionally, threats such as Floatzel and Zebstrika who outspeed and can 1HKO it leave Kanto Dugtrio the preferred forme offensively due to its higher speed. Alolan-Dugtrio just simply doesn't bring much to that table that Kanto Dugtrio doesn't do better in the current meta despite its Steel-typing.

B -> B- I don’t think this dropped enough previously to accurately reflect its decrease in viability this meta. Purugly struggles to act as an effective defog deterent due to most teams having a defensive Normal-type check such as PhysDef Golem or Gourgeist-XL in response to Band Komala. Purugly’s high speed is also no longer as good as it used to, being outpaced by threats such as Floatzel. This leaves Pawniard as a more appealing defog deterrent for Hyper Offensive playstyles such as Sticky Webs (though Pawniard has its own issues filling this role that I won’t get into now).

Nominations I agree with

Agree (not everything, just what I want to talk about):

A -> A+ Agree with the sentiment that despite its passivity, Gourgeist has become the best physical wall in the tier due to its ability to check threats like Komala and Scarf Electivire.

A- -> A Shiftry loves the current meta, with an increase of pokemon such as Bronzor and bulky-water types providing it set-up opportunities and a decrease in viability in offensive checks to Shiftry such as Silvally-Fighting and especially Monferno due to the prevalance of Altaria, Swanna, Pyukumuku, etc. Shiftry is effective at breaking Balance and Stall cores and is able to decimate many offensive teams mid- to late-game with a +2 LO Sucker Punch being able to 1HKO faster threats such as Floatzel, Electivire, etc. This could very well become an A+ threat in the near future.

A -> B I agree with 5gen and others that Probopass’s niches have become less desirable. Its vulnerability to practically every major threat in the metagame, including but not limited to Floatzel, Electivire, Golem, Pinsir, SD Abomasnow, etc makes Probopass more of a liability than an asset while teambuilding. While Probopass was fairly effective at being able to trap Mawile during Stoutland meta, Probopass struggles to trap the most prevalent steel-type in the current meta, Bronzor, consistently. Golem-Alola is simply a better choice if you are looking for a Pokemon who can trap Steel-types because it is able to apply much heavier offensive pressure to the rest of the opponents team.

C- -> UU I can agree with JdRDMS on this particular nomination. Sun isn’t a very effective strategy in the current meta which is part of the reason certain pokemon such as Lampent and Weepinbell have recently been unranked. However I still believe Onix should remain ranked for the time being because is still an alright suicide lead for Sun due to its its higher speed and access to Taunt set, giving it a recognizable niche over Golem.

B+ -> B/B- Agree with Union Caboche that the amount of hazard control options in this meta have made Sticky Web much harder to keep up, and hence a less effective and reliable strategy.

 

[Xayah]

I'm not gonna say too much but I got two things that have been getting a LOT better real quick recently so I need them to go up.

B -> B+/A- I've sung Leafeon's praise ever since I've seriously used it and it's honestly really good. An increasing prevelance of Golem most notably but also Scarf EVire means Leafeon gets a ton of opportunities to set up a Z-Celebrate before either setting up more with SD or sweeping with Leaf Blade/Knock Off/D-Edge. The fact that none of the common Scarfers (mainly EVire, but Mr Mime is probably the second most common) can really revenge kill it and it can even set up on the former is really, really solid. I think B+ is the best place to put this but A- works for me.

B- -> B+ People have been talking about how Probopass has to drop because Alolan Golem does the whole trapping thing better and I agree, but that also means Alolan Golem has to rise! Outside of its trapper set I've been using Band Galvanize too and damn does it hit hard. Sure it's walled by the things that wall EVire, at least mostly, so it's certainly not its best set, but still worth using. Either way it's gotta go up.

Don't have much time so you'll see my opinion on the other noms on the voting spreadsheet later on or maybe in an edit.

 

[5gen]

Going to expand on some earlier nominations and add some new ones. Council is also doing the final voting slate of 2018, so we will only be taking new nominations until Sunday night. Looking forward to new noms!

A+ to A

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Floatzel has largely been neutralized as a threat in the current meta in the sense that it heavily prediction reliant; there's no one set that can consistently put in work imo. Arguments for Floatzel being a top mon usually boil down to its versatility being able to punish defensive counterplay, as well as its Speed tier. While Floatzel's effect on the meta has been noticeable, the meta is stable and puts Floatzel in a tough position in every sense. More specifically, Floatzel has a fair amount of offensive counterplay (Swanna, Scarf Evire, Shiftry, Leafeon, etc) and defensive counterplay (Silvally-Water, Mareanie, Gourg-XL, Muk, etc). Floatzel just isn't on the level of the rest of the A+ Pokemon and it is prepped for extremely well organically.

A- to A

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More of a discussion point than a strong opinion. Beheeyem is one of the scariest offensive Pokemon to face because of OTR sets, but it can also break down balance with defensive NP sets. Despite being threatening, Beheeyem is fairly matchup reliant and its low Speed actually makes it more difficult to setup in the current meta due to the plethora of hard hitters. Usually has to stomach an attack before OTR puts in work, and pure Psychic typing is not good defensively. All in all, Beheeyem is one of those Pokemon that is relatively difficult to use successfully, but rewards good positioning and maneuvering.

B to B+

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Silvally has sets like SD, special, and Sub Toxic BoltBeam which I've messed around with, but imo it should rise based on the merit of Scarf sets. Normalvally has the bulk that makes it somewhat difficult to revenge kill, and it can also blow past offensive Pokemon with Double-Edge and Explosion. Moreover, its access to U-turn and a versatile fourth slot (Defog, Ice Beam for Gourg-XL/Tangela/Altaria, and Toxic mainly) make it consistent and less prediction reliant compared to Evire, Mime, and Rapidash. Biggest issue however is the opportunity cost of running or fitting Scarf Silvally on teams, which my counterargument would be that offensive teams tend to fit hazard removal on Pokemon such as Swanna or forgo it altogether, opting to rely on pressure and momentum to keep hazards off the field. This alone gives teams reason to run Silv-Normal over other types.

B- to C+

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Prominence of Water checks such as Silvally-Water and Gourg-XL, as well as the amount of Scarfers in the meta really pressure Huntail. It faces some nasty 4MSS with needing Sucker Punch to check faster threats, but needs Double-Edge for Silv-Water and Mareanie. Just isn't on par with the Pokemon in B- either.

B- to C+ or C

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Regice is simply lackluster in the current metagame. The prominence of Bronzor really holds it back as a sweeper, and Regice is very easy to threaten out with threats like Rapidash and Silvally-Fighting. Moreover, Regice requires a significant amount of support for something that offers little in return. Would place it in C because the Pokemon C+ for the most part can pull their weight in a battle and its niche is seldom desired atm.

Had other noms in mind before such as Mr. Mime, Viggy, and Metang dropping but I've changed my mind after some thought.

 

[Apagogie]

Alright so lets go :

Komala S -> A+
The only thing which could give Komala the S rank currently is the versatibility of its sets. Otherwise, I dont see any reason to keep it there when we look to how the meta has evolved. To be short, Komala doesnt appreciate the actual tends of the metagame with a lot of set up sweepers and bulky offensive mons are played. Its choice band set, even if effective, would like to pressure a more passive meta and struggles to kill more than a weaken mon. Its Bulk Up set isn't slighty better than what Vigoroth did considering it trades the status weakness to a recovery in two turns, which lets it once again very threated against all which is not passive. I unfortunately dont safe the replay where a midlife Shiftry is able to deal with a Komala at +2 in def but it lets you imagine the problems to set up a slow bulky mon with knock off no stab as only move. The two others set (wishtect and av) are globally inferior and I dont think i need to talk more about that.

Pinsir A+ -> A
It suffers a lot of the grumpig syndrom. It would like to run every set with every item with every ability in one set but it cannot. Without SD Z-Bug, it struggles to pass walls such as Gourgeist-Super but it needs in the same time the Z-Me First set is the best one, Moxie is the best ability to clean but it needs moldbreaker to pass stall and hits bronzor with eq, with the scarf it has the speed but there are too much resists of its stab/coverage move to safely click on one of them. It is far too much match up relevant and lacks seriously of splashability which makes it a less good choice generally than Raichu to beat passive stuff.

Vally-Water A -> A+
Splashable, amazing check to a lot of threats in this meta, sometimes even threaten because Surf/T-Bolt/Beam hit the 2/3 of the meta. No need to play defog on this. It can support the team or the team can support it. Best Vally.

Vally-Fighting A -> A-
Correct mon which checks also a lot of threats but fighting coverage is in general less good than before. Defensive defog sets work but needs a poison type to dont be 6-0 by toxic spikes. Nice check to Shiftry though but the meta isn't favorable.

Vally-Dark B+ -> B- or lower
Dont have any utility except Pursuit/check Shiftry. Bronzor isn't played enough to justify the first niche and Vally-Fighting is in general more viable to do the second. When is the last time you've played it ?

Oricorio Pom-Pom B -> B+
electric type are good right now in general. CM/Roost variant are difficult to deal with without toxic coverage. A lot of teams focus on how to check the physical side in despite of the special one. It needs the support of good mons able to pressure golem/bronzor though.

Camerupt B- -> B
Nice offensive stealth rocker which offers role compression in a team with an amazing coverage and the ability to threat bronzor/electric immunity and SR in one mon. Very threaten under TR as well, even if a lot of fire resists.




Quickly about 5gen noms, I'm not sure if Floatzel deserves the drop because none of these checks can beat it 100% of the time, even if I'm agree that it isn't the greatest of all at the moment. Silvally-Normal deserves indeed a rise, i've tested defensive variants recently and the soft recovery with leftovers is enjoyable. I dont have opinion about Beheyeem and I think Huntail is fine where it is. However, I want to talk more about Regice :

B- to C+ or C
Regice is simply lackluster in the current metagame. The prominence of Bronzor really holds it back as a sweeper, and Regice is very easy to threaten out with threats like Rapidash and Silvally-Fighting. Moreover, Regice requires a significant amount of support for something that offers little in return. Would place it in C because the Pokemon C+ for the most part can pull their weight in a battle and its niche is seldom desired atm.

Heavily disagree with this. If anything, it should rise
Regice has never be known for this sweeper set and if anything should be played if it is tank set with boltbeam coverage which allows to switch into numerous of common mons (Special Swanna, Abomasnow, Altaria, Gourgeist-Super,Vally-Water, Special Floatzel, Vally-Dragon). Bronzor has always stopped Regice, it's not something new and the usage of bronzor hasn't especially been high enough at the moment to use this reasonning in justification. Regice is indeed threaten by Vally-Fighting and Rapidash but both have never been as uneffective as recently considering how common Altaria/Swanna/Water types/Gourgeist-Super are. They aren't bad mons by any means but once again, use that as justification is weird considering how meh they have been. Furthermor, there is an exageration about the level of support Regice needs, only defog to be honnest which is by the way not the hardest thing to have with the amount of spinners/defogers we can pick.

Regice is just underplayed but usage doesnt mean viability. If anything, it's pretty effective against common balance core, it isn't only able to switch into but it is also to threat them back. I've played few games against Tack with regice these two last days and he can approve than it is not a bad mon.

 

[5gen]

Alright so lets go :
Heavily disagree with this. If anything, it should rise
Regice has never be known for this sweeper set and if anything should be played if it is tank set with boltbeam coverage which allows to switch into numerous of common mons (Special Swanna, Abomasnow, Altaria, Gourgeist-Super,Vally-Water, Special Floatzel, Vally-Dragon). Bronzor has always stopped Regice, it's not something new and the usage of bronzor hasn't especially been high enough at the moment to use this reasonning in justification. Rapidash and Vally-Fighting is indeed threaten by Vally-Fighting and Rapidash but both have never been as uneffective as recently considering how common Altaria/Swanna/Water types/Gourgeist-Super are. They aren't bad mons by any means but once again, use that as justification is weird considering how meh they have been. Furthermor, there is an exageration about the level of support Regice needs, only defog to be honnest which is by the way not the hardest thing to have with the amount of spinners/defogers we can pick.

Regice is just underplayed but usage doesnt mean viability. If anything, it's pretty effective against common balance core, it isn't only able to switch into but it is also to threat them back. I've played few games against Tack with regice these two last days and he can approve than it is not a bad mon.

You made some pretty nice noms but I just want to respond to this one specifically. I agree that sweeper Regice is not a good set in this meta and that Rest-Talk BoltBeam is probably the better set. However, I do have to disagree with the reasoning in your post. While Regice can wall most of the Pokemon you listed, it also isn't necessarily a consistent check to them. For example, Floatzel can cripple it with Switcheroo, SIlvally formes can always U-turn out, and SD Abomasnow beats it. Outside of that vacuum, Regice's tank set doesn't do so well in the current metagame due to the influx of breakers and how poor its defensive typing is. Moreover, Bronzor's usage is number 7 with 12.49229%, so it is safe to use that as justification for Regice being bad imo.

From my experience, using tank Regice skews the teambuilding process. While this is true to an extent when building around any Pokemon (i.e team takes the direction of what you want to build around), the case with tank Regice is that it opens up so many weaknesses imo. For example, the things it's naturally weak to, its low Speed, and its weakness to physical attackers. Tank Regice forces you to accommodate for all those flaws, and at the end of the day it doesn't give much mileage. In other words, Regice is simply too easy to play around and lacks a desirable niche in the current meta.

I also want to note that Silvally-Fighting and Rapidash are still very good in this metagame; Rapidash lacks consistent checks and breaks very easily, while Silvally-Fighting is one of the most consistent Defoggers who can also pick and choose what to beat (Ice Beam beats Alt/Gourg-XL, mixed attacker with BoltBeam breaks down Swanna builds, defensive with Toxic provides a sturdier out vs physical attackers). While the influx of Waters and Gourg-XL have had an effect, I think their viability is still up there.