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Smogon University PO Statistics — March 2012
- Thread starter Antar
- Start date
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OU Lead Usage
Surprising! It's ages i don't see an Azelf, but i expected Donphan to be higher - at least 10%. Landorus, Terrakion and Ferrothorn still stand very high, while my boys (Shaymin and Rhyperior) are only #104 and #109. Will we see any change by June?
Oh god I was expecting Hitmonlee to be UU. I mean, he's too strong to stay RU. He would wreck almost anything and that's not a suitable place for him to be in. Aside from all of that, the new tier changes are nice, except I never get to try out Mesprit in NU. Oh well.
Hitmonlee is in an odd spot in RU. Almost anything it can do is better done by something else. Medicham is usually better for spamming Hi Jump Kick, Hitmonchan is better for spinning, and Sceptile pulls off an Unburden sweep better due to surprise factor, although Hitmonlee can get priority Unburden boosts with Fake Out. The only things that Hitmonlee has over its competition are Foresight + Reckless Hi Jump Kick, and the ability to revenge kill things like +2 Omastar with Fake Out + Unburden.
Well Scrafty is certainly not an easy Pokemon to use well in the current OU environment; I'm not denying that. But calling him bad is an overstatement. I know a lot of people HAD have success with him in OU, so clearly he's got something going for him, and looking at him that beastly coverage combined with good boosting moves and bulk certainly looks like a good reason. He's not that hard to set up if you get rid of a couple key Pokemon first, which is required for pretty much any sweeper (I know I have to the same with Conk).
As for Terrakion, I've honestly never had a lot of trouble with it for all the hype it gets. Yes it hits hard and fast, but I usually have no difficulty wearing it down into KO range from Conkeldurr or burning/parlyzing it with something. The thing is really vulnerable to status without Substitute and if it runs Substitute it makes it easier for Skarmory and the like to phaze it out as it has to take a turn setting it up first, not to mention it's giving itself damage by doing so. Terrakion is a top tier threat, don't get me wrong, but it's hardly bannable material. You're far from guaranteed to lose a Pokemon if you play properly, and it's not as easy to sweep with as Excadrill was.
I disagree with this. Dragonite and Salamence are two completely different Pokemon this Gen thanks to the addition of Multiscale. Dragonite has a good bit more versatility than Mence, thanks to Multiscale, and has better bulk. Thanks to Multiscale, sets like SubDD, Para Shuffle, Rain Abuser D-Nite, etc. are all viable sets for Draginite, where Mence fails to run them (Mence can't even learn Thunder and Hurricane to run the rain abuser set). Mence can run a decent Wish set, however. Nonetheless, Mence and Dragonite still play differently in most cases, and should not be compared, as they both shine in different ways. With all of the different sets that both of these Pokemon can run, "if you aren't using e-speed you should just use mence." is quite a false statement.
While I agree that the main reason why Scizor is so high is Terrakion, the other thing that it counters which otherwise destroys the meta is Reuniclus. Now a lot of people say they never have trouble with Reuniclus, that's probably because you use one of Scizor, specially defensive Heatran, specially defensive Jirachi, or Perish Song Politoed. Even then, Heatran has to have Roar, and Jirachi has to rely on paraflinching Reuniclus to death. Politoed can also lose to Trick Room versions. One of the reasons Heatran is so high now too is because it can check Reuniclus and Scizor, which as I said before is high due to Reuniclus as well. Why does Politoed even commonly run Perish Song? Baton Pass yes, but also Reuniclus, which otherwise completely destroys rain stall. Sand has to run either Scizor, Heatran, or Jirachi to deal with it, or else get completely destroyed. Sun really only has Heatran to stop Reuniclus. In my opinion Reuniclus was rightly put up for suspect in early BW, and today's metagame has shaped around it to ridiculous extents. More people using Scarf Terrakion is only a boon to Reuniclus, as only CB and SubSD can really beat it. I'm amazed about how low it is right now, when players have taken great care into countering it. The thing I fear is that with all the debates about Terrakion, if it goes then Reuniclus surely will as well.
I quite disagree here. If a Dragonite is on a rain team you know it is most definitely an M Dragonite, and if it is in clear skies then it is either CB or some form of DD set. Mence may not learn Thunder or Hurricane but it does get Hydro Pump.
Salamence, on the other hand, (assuming clear skies) can run DD, several different Mixed sets, Moxie Scarf, Moxie DD etc etc and has way more offensive presence than D-Nite since it is a lot faster and runs mixed sets far more often than D-Nite. Relegating it to 'it can run a decent wish set' is silly when it is quicker and more powerful in BOTH offenses than Dragonite.
The key difference is bulk, which Salamence has less of, and since Gen V likes bulky offense Dragonite is more often seen. They're both very good pokemon. Multiscale gives better bulk but does not do much for versatility.
(E-speed isn't the main reason for D-Nite>Mence though, I agree)
Just to get this off my chest, "but it does get Hydro Pump." and Dragonite gets Surf, but I was talking about a bulky Rain Abuser set, which Mence can not pull off, I even inferred I was talking about it when I stated Mence not getting Hurricane and Thunder.
"Relegating it to 'it can run a decent wish set' is silly when it is quicker and more powerful in BOTH offenses than Dragonite." I was talking about how Mence could run a viable defensive set as well, it does not always have no be a full out offensive Pokemon. I don't see how it is "silly" to run such a set just because of Salamences higher offensive stats.
"The key difference is bulk, which Salamence has less of" I disagree with that statement. The real KEY difference is Multiscale, which is what a good bit of Dragonite sets are centered around. Say you are running a DD Dragonite set. You DD and your opponent switches to a Scarf Landorus. With Multiscale, you can live any hit. You Dragon Dance again, and proceed to take out Landorus and the rest of your opponents team. With Salamence, (since he doesn't get Multiscale) you would not be able to do that. I'm not saying one is superior to the other, I am just showing how they play differently.
"Multiscale gives better bulk but does not do much for versatility." One, Multiscale only gives better bulk when Dragonite is at full health. Two, umm sir. Hello. Could you tell me how Multiscale does not do much for versatility? Thanks to Multiscale, Dragonite can pull off Multiscale abuse sets quite well (SubDD, Para Shuffle, etc.) which adds to it's versatility.
Anyway, I'm not sure you got the main idea of my paragraph. The point I was trying to get across was that they both play differently, and should not be compared. You were talking about Mence's offensive presence, which is one of the reasons they play differently.
Multiscale discourages -def natures since you want to get the most out of it. This means when it goes mixed it loses speed. Multiscale discourages mixed sets generally. Sub DD, Para Shuffle, etc would all be there anyway, and some of those were even used in Gen IV.
TLDR: every set D-Nite uses is an abuser of multiscale, this does not make multiscale the reason for the sets.
I did get what you were saying, and where I was disagreeing was where you said Dragonite was more versatile than Salamence, which is simply not true when it runs at least two different mixed sets (Classic and New) and various sets which can abuse Moxie. Dragonite always has multiscale and is pretty much always only physical when not on a rain team.
"every set D-Nite uses is an abuser of multiscale, this does not make multiscale the reason for the sets." Yes, most Dragonite sets benefit from Multiscale, but some abuse it more than others (SubDD, Para Shuffle, etc.). Those sets would not function as well without Multiscale.
"I did get what you were saying, and where I was disagreeing was where you said Dragonite was more versatile than Salamence, which is simply not true" Thanks to Multiscale, Dragonite can run more viable sets than Mence.
Reuniclus???????
You have got to be kidding. Never, EVER have I had trouble with Reuniclus, and though I do use Sp. Def Jirachi it's pretty much NEVER my main stop to it. I never have trouble with it, despite running stallish teams. I NEVER have a specific counter for it. I don't think I've even thought about it when building my teams, and not one of them has been weak to it. That's not even REMOTELY centralizing. It's a good Pokemon, yes but it's really not that hard to stop. Just about anything with Taunt that isn't weak to special attacks can destroy the Calm Mind set, anything with Dragon Tail and some special bulk laughs at it (which is most Dragon Tail users btw), Tyranitar just needs a Chopple Berry to put it in a checkmate position. Hell, even CONKELDURR can beat it with Payback if it switches in too many times! Sub Disable Gengar totally walls the CM set unless they run Shadow Ball for some reason, Dragonite uses it as set-up bait. The Trick room version is no worse, as any special wall can beat it as long as it has an actual attacking move, not to mention that any specially bulky attacker can probably tank a hit or two and then take it down.
Don't get me wrong, Reuniclus is a great Pokemon. But suggesting it's broken is just hilarious.
EDIT: And as for the "Dragonite is more versatile than Slamance" argument, I totally have to agree. While they each have a set of common sets they usually run, Dragonite has a lot more uncommon options available to it. Salamence can run a number of offensive sets, and one defensive one (Wishmence) successfully, wheras Dragonite can run pretty much all the same Offensive sets Salamence does (to varying degrees of success) as well as being one of the most versatile defensive Pokemon in the tier as well. Saying that Dragonite "only runs physical sets outside of rain" is thinking inside the box too much. While that's usually the case, Dragonite is PERFECTLY capable of running a mixed set outside of rain with extreme effectiveness, becoming a wallbreaker to rival Salamence, with the element of surprise on its side as well, unlike Mence who everyone EXPECTS to be mixed. Believe me, I've tried it and it was rare to have a game where it DIDN'T take out two opposing Pokemon, thanks to everyone switching in their physical steels into Fire Blast :P
More sets does not equal more versatility. Many of Dragonite's sets are incredibly similar; it has three DD sets on the analysis, as well as 3 tankish sets, and all behave incredibly similarly. The point is most of Dragonite's are incredibly similar (Tank, Tank in Rain, Mixed Attacker, Mixed Attacker in Rain, etc) whereas Salamence can DD, pull off a Scarf Moxie set, or more often than not tear stuff up with a mixed set.
TL;DR: Most of Dragonite's sets are very similar, with just one or two variations, whereas Salamence's are incredibly varied. Just look at the analyses if you don't believe me.
EDIT @ above: You say Dragonite is capable of running the element of surprise and then say Salamence can't? Salamence has loads of underrated sets (Specs, for example) and surpise shouldn't be considered in versatility anyhow since every pokemon can boast that.
When fighting Salamence there is far more to consider and predict than when fighting Dragonite.
@complete legitimacy
I disagree. Reuniclus is a good and a bit versatile mon that's for sure, but saying that the meta has shaped around Reuniclus too much is an exaggeration. Both Scizor sets, SD and BandZor, are amazing pokes and Scizor would be top 10 regardless of Terrakion, he is just too good at what he does which is the strongest priority in OU, one of the best typings in OU, amazing scouting abilities paired with huge power, amazing synergy with another top 10 poke, Rotom-W, strong coverage options, ability to trap troubling special attackers and the ability to sweep in the blink of an eye. Most times that i put Scizor in my team, i hardly think about Reuniclus, rather it gets covered automatically.
CM Reuniclus, which is the only Reuniclus that should take a bit of effort to counter, has many checks and counters, which are very good at their job, even when Reuniclus is not in the opposing team. Wish Jirachi is a 100% counter to both Reuniclus. Scizor comes second as a very good counter to both variants. Stall teams have the ability to run the amazing Dnite that M Dragon popularized, which avoids the 2hko from a +6 Psychic with MS active, and phazes out. They can also run Sableye which is a quite good poke, imo, to hard counter Reuniclus. Perish Song Celebi is also an option as a counter, for stall teams, to deal with Reuniclus, but is also useful for BP teams, and last mon scenarios. Stallbreaker Mew with Night Shade also completely counters Reuniclus.
These were all counters. If we were to talk about checks, we would have Perish Song/Encore Politoed, Specially Defensive Skarmory, Specially Defensive Heatran, CB Tar, Sub Disable Gengar, CB Metagross, anything with Trick such as Latios and Rotom-W, CB Dragonite, SD Taunt Gliscor if Reuniclus uses Psyshock, and Roar Vaporeon.
All these pokes with a few exceptions have many functions in a team and cover many threats. The only specialized threat that i can give you out of them is Sableye, who is put in Stall teams instead of others ghosts for 2 main reasons: to stop Reuniclus and help against opposing stallbreakers and i think that his ability to stop Reuniclus is the main reason he is picked. Every other poke would still be very viable without Reuniclus, so i can't see how the meta revolves a lot around Reuniclus. Quite the opposite i would say, since most teams don't even try to cover it but it gets covered anyway (with the exception of stall teams).
I disagree. Reuniclus is a good and a bit versatile mon that's for sure, but saying that the meta has shaped around Reuniclus too much is an exaggeration. Both Scizor sets, SD and BandZor, are amazing pokes and Scizor would be top 10 regardless of Terrakion, he is just too good at what he does which is the strongest priority in OU, one of the best typings in OU, amazing scouting abilities paired with huge power, amazing synergy with another top 10 poke, Rotom-W, strong coverage options, ability to trap troubling special attackers and the ability to sweep in the blink of an eye. Most times that i put Scizor in my team, i hardly think about Reuniclus, rather it gets covered automatically.
CM Reuniclus, which is the only Reuniclus that should take a bit of effort to counter, has many checks and counters, which are very good at their job, even when Reuniclus is not in the opposing team. Wish Jirachi is a 100% counter to both Reuniclus. Scizor comes second as a very good counter to both variants. Stall teams have the ability to run the amazing Dnite that M Dragon popularized, which avoids the 2hko from a +6 Psychic with MS active, and phazes out. They can also run Sableye which is a quite good poke, imo, to hard counter Reuniclus. Perish Song Celebi is also an option as a counter, for stall teams, to deal with Reuniclus, but is also useful for BP teams, and last mon scenarios. Stallbreaker Mew with Night Shade also completely counters Reuniclus.
These were all counters. If we were to talk about checks, we would have Perish Song/Encore Politoed, Specially Defensive Skarmory, Specially Defensive Heatran, CB Tar, Sub Disable Gengar, CB Metagross, anything with Trick such as Latios and Rotom-W, CB Dragonite, SD Taunt Gliscor if Reuniclus uses Psyshock, and Roar Vaporeon.
All these pokes with a few exceptions have many functions in a team and cover many threats. The only specialized threat that i can give you out of them is Sableye, who is put in Stall teams instead of others ghosts for 2 main reasons: to stop Reuniclus and help against opposing stallbreakers and i think that his ability to stop Reuniclus is the main reason he is picked. Every other poke would still be very viable without Reuniclus, so i can't see how the meta revolves a lot around Reuniclus. Quite the opposite i would say, since most teams don't even try to cover it but it gets covered anyway (with the exception of stall teams).
It only takes one Reuniclus sweep to begin to prepare for it. I agree that most of the time, you cover it without thinking, but the one time you make a team that can do nothing against it, you begin to recognize it as a major threat. Taunt is surprisingly uncommon, as most Gliscor have dropped it, Jellicent has fallen, and almost everything else common that gets it doesn't use it.
Looking back at the top 10 from almost a year ago in April 2011, more than half the top ten checked Reuniclus, not including Reuniclus itself. More things that can check Reuniclus have gone higher, while Reuniclus has dropped considerably since then. Although my tone may have said otherwise, I wasn't suggesting that Reuniclus was broken, I was just analyzing the changes in the metagame, and happened to notice that the metagame has taken considerable measures to avoid losing to Reuniclus.
Looking back at the top 10 from almost a year ago in April 2011, more than half the top ten checked Reuniclus, not including Reuniclus itself. More things that can check Reuniclus have gone higher, while Reuniclus has dropped considerably since then. Although my tone may have said otherwise, I wasn't suggesting that Reuniclus was broken, I was just analyzing the changes in the metagame, and happened to notice that the metagame has taken considerable measures to avoid losing to Reuniclus.
Maybe I should have said DIFFERENT viable sets. With Multiscale and Dragonite's move pool, there are so many different ways Dragonite can be played. Salamence has many great different sets, but his versatility just does not match up to Dragonite's.
With Intimidate/Moxie and Salamence's movepool, there are so many different ways Salamence can be played. The main difference IS bulk: Salamence does not play defensively (or at least shouldn't) whereas Dragonite can. I admit Dragonite has more versatlity there. In terms of sheer offensive prowess though I think Salamence has the edge.
This is my last post on the topic.
"Salamence does not play defensively (or at least shouldn't)" Wish Mence is a viable set.
"In terms of sheer offensive prowess though I think Salamence has the edge." I thought I established that in post 1 on the topic, but whatever. Also, just because Salamence has superior offensive stats doesn't mean he has more versatility.
On the Dragonite vs. Salamence debate: Let's see what each one has over the other.
Dragonite (91/134/95/100/100/80):
-Superior bulk (with or without Multiscale)
-Multiscale itself - a great but situational ability
-A wider movepool, both offensively and defensively
-Heal Bell (Inner Focus only)
-(Somewhat weak) priority moves
Salamence (95/135/80/110/80/100):
-Superior offensive stats
-Higher Speed (!)
-Higher HP
-Two great abilities in Intimidate and Moxie - specifics of each will not be discussed here
-Wish (Intimidate only)
I honestly believe that neither one is truly "better" than the other. Dragonite can perform a ton of good roles, while the few Salamence can fill are often done more effectively. Dragonite is better at abusing Rain, while Salamence's DD sets are far more terrifying after a boost or two. I've personally gotten more out of Salamence myself, since I've never run Rain and never really needed a parashuffler or anything, but it's really all up to what your team needs and which Pokemon you prefer.
Dragonite (91/134/95/100/100/80):
-Superior bulk (with or without Multiscale)
-Multiscale itself - a great but situational ability
-A wider movepool, both offensively and defensively
-Heal Bell (Inner Focus only)
-(Somewhat weak) priority moves
Salamence (95/135/80/110/80/100):
-Superior offensive stats
-Higher Speed (!)
-Higher HP
-Two great abilities in Intimidate and Moxie - specifics of each will not be discussed here
-Wish (Intimidate only)
I honestly believe that neither one is truly "better" than the other. Dragonite can perform a ton of good roles, while the few Salamence can fill are often done more effectively. Dragonite is better at abusing Rain, while Salamence's DD sets are far more terrifying after a boost or two. I've personally gotten more out of Salamence myself, since I've never run Rain and never really needed a parashuffler or anything, but it's really all up to what your team needs and which Pokemon you prefer.
Abomasnow
1337 ranking: 20
March ranking: 52
Just saying.
1337 ranking: 20
March ranking: 52
Just saying.
I believe he was 20th on the 1337 stats, either way I think the #smogon Dual Weather challenge helped ol Father Hail out. Abomasnow was definitely one of the easiest to fit with another weather starter as ShakeItUp's RMT showed. Whenever I faced a dual weather it usually had Abomasnow as an almost sidekick character, just there to fulfill the challenges requirements.
Poor Scrafty,so many people bashing him. Maybe OU just isnt for him,ironically though ive used him to great effect in Ubers with the Bulk Up set,even sweeping a couple times.
what. Dude,where have you been these past 1 and a half years???
what. Dude,where have you been these past 1 and a half years???
I was half expecting you to say "Big whoop, Wanna fight about it?", at the end there.
On topic:
Hmmmmmm dat stagnation of OU. However seeing d-nite get love after 4th gen makes me happy.
At long last, Moveset and metagame analyses are up:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464495#4
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464495#4
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